Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 9
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Boeing in Crisis

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:27 am

I hate to see anyone lose there job over this but there used to be a million coal miners in this country too. Back in the 60's only a few people flew on vacations. We seemed to do fine. Look at all the people working from home now. With the virus, global warming issue, and new communication technologies, the demand curve may be permanently changed.

I do think that General Aviation may see a growth spurt.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    Sokes
    Posts: 1812
    Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

    Re: Boeing in Crisis

    Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:41 pm

    TTailedTiger wrote:
    If the US airlines have to be bailed out by the government then there should be stipulations that they must buy from US manufacturers whenever possible if they want the aid. That would include ordering from Boeing, GE, etc. This would eliminate or lessen the need to prop up Boeing and other US aviation suppliers. That relief money needs to go back into our economy.


    I believe the last US president who really tried to protect American labor was Hoover.
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    Sokes
    Posts: 1812
    Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

    Re: Boeing in Crisis

    Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:52 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    I suggest you all read the opinion piece in Aviation Week (which was not behind a paywall)
    https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/manu ... ders-first

    There is a chart that shows Boeing stock buy backs vs RD expenditures and some infamous quotes from past Boeing President

    Life long Republican but kinda think Biden needs to put Elizabeth Warren in his cabinet. First thing banned - stock buybacks


    Interesting article. I like Milton Friedman and don't believe that he suggested share buybacks. Whenever capitalism fails, the Chicago boys get blamed for it.

    What I found highly interesting:
    "Boeing, for example, spent an average of $12.8 billion in share buybacks and dividends in 2018 and 2019, while averaging just $2.2 billion in R&D. This is not just a Boeing problem; it is a corporate America problem. In 2018, share buybacks and dividends for the S&P 500 were an astounding 109% of net income, according to The Wall Street Journal."

    I always assumed manufacturing leaves the US because of the overvalued Dollar. Well, it seems I'm wrong.
    Probably my assumption was faulty from the beginning. Why shouldn't it be possible that the US produces a lot of high tech, but at the same time consumes even more imported low value items than exported high value items?
    Obviously if profits are not reinvested and research and development neglected, the leadership position can't last.

    Your link really showed me a new path of thinking. Thanks so much.

    I am happy to see that you make the link to regulation/ politics. It's not a problem of greedy managers. Managers didn't change. Regulation changed.
    I believe the problem is that all people with memory of 1929 are gone. In my opinion the earlier the collapse of world economy, the better. Regulation will be reintroduced and we should have a good economic system for our remaining life.

    Or maybe Roosevelt was just a lucky coincident? In history a lot of high developed cultures have failed. Long term failure is the rule, not the exception.
    "Why Nations Fail" gives the example of Venice. Venice was about to get the role which Britain later achieved. The government changed regulation and Venice became a small, unimportant museum.
    But people don't care about regulations. Not much one can do.
    Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 271
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: Boeing in Crisis

    Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:00 pm

    Thanks for the kind note. Although times seem bleak now, I truly believe a vaccine or treatment will be available soon. Hopefully we (society) will have all learned a lesson.
      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
       
      MartijnNL
      Posts: 999
      Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:59 pm

      leghorn wrote:
      Boeing need to figure out how they can rework built Max8 planes as Max200s as cheaply and quickly as possible.

      Boeing need to terminate the 737 and start working on a brand new design. As they should have done years ago. And which they could have done with a fraction of the money the Max fiasco has costed them so far.
       
      leghorn
      Posts: 1297
      Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:15 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Thanks for the kind note. Although times seem bleak now, I truly believe a vaccine or treatment will be available soon. Hopefully we (society) will have all learned a lesson.

      It might find its way in to the Autumn/Winter flu shot for 2021 but not before then according to what I've read.
       
      JoergAtADN
      Posts: 79
      Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:08 pm

      Can't airlines cancel their 737MAX orders without penalty, due to the deliver delays?

      I guess there are some airlines, which need the millions of dollars back, which they gave Boeing as deposits for their 737MAX order.
       
      747megatop
      Posts: 1785
      Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:21 pm

      phlswaflyer wrote:
      Boeing is in deep trouble. They will declare BK and they will survive. I blame 20 years of corrupt GE based management. I blame a board and the last two CEO's who were motivated by stock price ( GE BS) and the ghost of Welch. Incompetent and woefully unprepared. Blood money. I blame the last two CEO's who failed to see the future and all they could do was react to Airbus. I see a company steeped in a corrosive culture that has very possibly destroyed an American Icon.

      Agree. Boeing stopped innovating & was run by accountants without an emphasis on quality. Having said that; all of that has nothing to do with the current unparalled crisis. This current crisis is much beyond 9/11, 2008, SARS & MERS. This is a global shutodwn of all countries with ALL industries being impacted.
       
      716131
      Posts: 892
      Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:24 pm

      MartijnNL wrote:
      leghorn wrote:
      Boeing need to figure out how they can rework built Max8 planes as Max200s as cheaply and quickly as possible.

      Boeing need to terminate the 737 and start working on a brand new design. As they should have done years ago. And which they could have done with a fraction of the money the Max fiasco has costed them so far.

      Yes. The MAX needs a new design or further repair soon. But I also found that Airbus they will not of coarse not welcome airlines to replace their current MAX in service with NEO as Airbus cannot build more planes that much.
      If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
       
      716131
      Posts: 892
      Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:38 pm

      JoergAtADN wrote:
      Can't airlines cancel their 737MAX orders without penalty, due to the deliver delays?

      I guess there are some airlines, which need the millions of dollars back, which they gave Boeing as deposits for their 737MAX order.

      Maybe. Not really sure about how they return money upon sell. But if they will switch to Airbus NEO, Airbus said they will not be able to cover their loss of MAX which the airline who already buy MAX as Airbus is struggling to build as much plane as that.
      If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
       
      User avatar
      spinotter
      Posts: 796
      Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:46 pm

      Sokes wrote:
      TTailedTiger wrote:
      If the US airlines have to be bailed out by the government then there should be stipulations that they must buy from US manufacturers whenever possible if they want the aid. That would include ordering from Boeing, GE, etc. This would eliminate or lessen the need to prop up Boeing and other US aviation suppliers. That relief money needs to go back into our economy.


      I believe the last US president who really tried to protect American labor was Hoover.


      It is a self-defeating strategy to buy only national productions if they are not equal to the competition.
       
      MohawkWeekend
      Posts: 271
      Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

      Re: Boeing in Crisis

      Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:22 am

      When US Govt bails out Boeing and the aIrlines, the US Govt should be given significant ownership shares as was the case in 2008. With Boeing, perhaps even control. Strict limits on executive compensation should be step one. Dividends step 2
      Just like the 2008 bailouts, the Govt can recoup (most) of our investment when things settle down and the shares can be sold. Existing shareholders and bondholders will most likely need to take haircuts on their investments.
        300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
         
        User avatar
        exFWAOONW
        Posts: 733
        Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:07 am

        Those writing Boeing’s obituary have watched too much of CNN/MSNBC’s (and others) “hair on fire” style of reporting.

        One hopes that the leadership left wii learn this painful lesson and move on to better things.

        If I were there, the first thing I would due is default on any golden parachute payments remaining. (I doubt they could find a sympathetic jury anywhere)
        Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
         
        JoergAtADN
        Posts: 79
        Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:00 am

        SQ789 wrote:
        JoergAtADN wrote:
        Can't airlines cancel their 737MAX orders without penalty, due to the deliver delays?

        I guess there are some airlines, which need the millions of dollars back, which they gave Boeing as deposits for their 737MAX order.

        Maybe. Not really sure about how they return money upon sell. But if they will switch to Airbus NEO, Airbus said they will not be able to cover their loss of MAX which the airline who already buy MAX as Airbus is struggling to build as much plane as that.


        In the actual situation no airline will order new aircrafts, their business just colapsed. They need cash to survive!

        If airlines cancel 737MAX orders, they get the deposit back. If they cancel other aircraft orders, the deposit would be lost.
         
        Interested
        Posts: 887
        Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:30 am

        JoergAtADN wrote:
        SQ789 wrote:
        JoergAtADN wrote:
        Can't airlines cancel their 737MAX orders without penalty, due to the deliver delays?

        I guess there are some airlines, which need the millions of dollars back, which they gave Boeing as deposits for their 737MAX order.

        Maybe. Not really sure about how they return money upon sell. But if they will switch to Airbus NEO, Airbus said they will not be able to cover their loss of MAX which the airline who already buy MAX as Airbus is struggling to build as much plane as that.


        In the actual situation no airline will order new aircrafts, their business just colapsed. They need cash to survive!

        If airlines cancel 737MAX orders, they get the deposit back. If they cancel other aircraft orders, the deposit would be lost.


        If the airlines go bust they can't ask for the deposit back

        Even British Airways is in danger apparently and that's something I never expected to say
         
        User avatar
        Phosphorus
        Posts: 1034
        Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:35 am

        Interested wrote:
        ...
        If the airlines go bust they can't ask for the deposit back

        Even British Airways is in danger apparently and that's something I never expected to say

        If the airlines go bust, they will be in no position to ask or do anything.
        However, the receivers / administrators of bankrupt estate / liquidators will definitely demand money back, especially for a frame like MAX. Maybe even with penalties. I could even imagine mega-creative lawyers, constructing a case, where grounding of MAX was the final nail in the coffin of the airline.
        And don't forget, in some jurisdictions, there is a distinction between "benign" bankruptcy (bad luck) and malignant one -- the latter being part of criminal code. You don't want to be a defendant in those. It might be an easier way out to return deposits and some reasonable interest/penalties.
        AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
        Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
         
        JoergAtADN
        Posts: 79
        Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:45 am

        Interested wrote:
        JoergAtADN wrote:
        If airlines cancel 737MAX orders, they get the deposit back. If they cancel other aircraft orders, the deposit would be lost.


        If the airlines go bust they can't ask for the deposit back

        Even British Airways is in danger apparently and that's something I never expected to say


        But if an airline cancels the order, because of Boeings inability to deliver the certified aircraft in time, Boeing has to pay back the deposit to the airline.

        I guess, cash is more worth under the acual circumstances, than early 737MAX delivery slots.
         
        mjoelnir
        Posts: 9391
        Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:36 pm

        airzona11 wrote:
        IF chasing share price is root of all the evil of Boeing, how are the same posters explaining the near-identical share price fall of Airbus?


        Because Airbus did not chase the share price. They did not spend billions on artificially propping up the share price. Simple really.
         
        mjoelnir
        Posts: 9391
        Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:47 pm

        Interested wrote:
        JoergAtADN wrote:
        SQ789 wrote:
        Maybe. Not really sure about how they return money upon sell. But if they will switch to Airbus NEO, Airbus said they will not be able to cover their loss of MAX which the airline who already buy MAX as Airbus is struggling to build as much plane as that.


        In the actual situation no airline will order new aircrafts, their business just colapsed. They need cash to survive!

        If airlines cancel 737MAX orders, they get the deposit back. If they cancel other aircraft orders, the deposit would be lost.


        If the airlines go bust they can't ask for the deposit back

        Even British Airways is in danger apparently and that's something I never expected to say


        If airlines go bust the insolvency administration will go for those deposits.
         
        airzona11
        Posts: 1769
        Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:44 pm

        mjoelnir wrote:
        airzona11 wrote:
        IF chasing share price is root of all the evil of Boeing, how are the same posters explaining the near-identical share price fall of Airbus?


        Because Airbus did not chase the share price. They did not spend billions on artificially propping up the share price. Simple really.


        So why didn’t it harm Boeing differently in the markets ?
         
        User avatar
        Phosphorus
        Posts: 1034
        Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:54 pm

        airzona11 wrote:
        mjoelnir wrote:
        airzona11 wrote:
        IF chasing share price is root of all the evil of Boeing, how are the same posters explaining the near-identical share price fall of Airbus?


        Because Airbus did not chase the share price. They did not spend billions on artificially propping up the share price. Simple really.


        So why didn’t it harm Boeing differently in the markets ?


        Share price, ad extremis, indicates willingness of investors to part with their cash for piece of ownership of the company in question.
        Factors in price performance are multiple, and include sector performance and prospects (especially for index-based investment baskets/funds), overall health of economy, etc.

        If you've noticed, air transport, for the last few weeks (and probably, more weeks to come) is not the most lucrative place to park you cash. Nor the most reliable.
        The tide goes out for all players in air transport -- airlines, airports, frame builders, etc.

        Warren Buffett is a guy, who is generally accepted to know a thing or two about investing. His famous quote: "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."

        And some posters here posit that stock sell-off in air transport and associated category is inevitable. But some companies are more vulnerable than others. And Boeing seems very vulnerable.
        AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
        Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
         
        smartplane
        Posts: 1523
        Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:25 pm

        mjoelnir wrote:
        Interested wrote:
        JoergAtADN wrote:

        In the actual situation no airline will order new aircrafts, their business just colapsed. They need cash to survive!

        If airlines cancel 737MAX orders, they get the deposit back. If they cancel other aircraft orders, the deposit would be lost.


        If the airlines go bust they can't ask for the deposit back

        Even British Airways is in danger apparently and that's something I never expected to say


        If airlines go bust the insolvency administration will go for those deposits.

        You assume no customers use pre-shipment finance. If deposit repayment is triggered and occurs (and it's a big 'if') it doesn't necessarily go to the customer.

        Sale / purchase agreements include standard and unique terms and conditions, plus IATA defaults. This includes arbitration, of which repayment is the last option.

        Rarely are deposits 100% refundable. Scaling rules apply based on construction milestones, for example where long lead items have been purchased, assembly has started, engines built, etc.

        There are very few MAX (and RR-powered 787) customers who have not already executed OEM initiated contract variations in return for value (mainly increased retrospective credits), just as happened with 787 and A380 delivery delays.
         
        Sokes
        Posts: 1812
        Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:14 am

        smartplane wrote:
        There are very few MAX (and RR-powered 787) customers who have not already executed OEM initiated contract variations in return for value (mainly increased retrospective credits), just as happened with 787 and A380 delivery delays.


        Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if I understand. Can you expand?
        Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
         
        Scotron12
        Posts: 496
        Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:17 am

        Seattle Times has a report that Boeing may have to cease production in Everett due to slowdown in air travel. Love the quote by Richard Aboulafia: Boeings "crack cocaine addiction to shareholder returns".

        https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... roduction/
         
        User avatar
        SQ32
        Posts: 108
        Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:31 am

        Despite having imminent cash flow problem, Boeing embark on massive stock buyback, often funded by borrowings from banks. Soon Boeing will ask for bailout as per TBTF banks.

        Then, Boeing will be socializing loss and privatizing profits.

        For the sake of hardcore fan of free market capitalism, Boeing should shut down immediately and return monies back to shareholders.

        As for now, Boeing has plunge 60% from the top. It will go to ZERO in this fall.
         
        User avatar
        SQ32
        Posts: 108
        Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:40 am

        After massive stock buyback using borrowed monies, Boeing now asks for bailout.

        https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-s ... 25290.html

        Boeing Co. has asked White House and Congressional officials for short-term aid for itself,

        S&P Global Ratings downgraded Boeing two notches to BBB, or two steps above junk. The ratings company predicted a free cash outflow of $11 billion to $12 billion this year followed by a weaker-than-expected recovery next year as a result of the prolonged 737 Max grounding.

        The company has taken steps to bolster cash reserves, drawing down a $13.8 billion loan as a precaution amid tumultuous markets.
         
        User avatar
        atcsundevil
        Moderator
        Posts: 4289
        Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:56 am

        This thread is a Boeing financial discussion. Airbus vs. Boeing comments are removed per forum rules. Please stay on topic.

        ✈️ atcsundevil
         
        User avatar
        SQ32
        Posts: 108
        Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:16 pm

        Boeing being described by Zerohedge, as clowns and monkeys.


        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/botto ... lion-short

        Stock price has crashed from $350 to $130 in a little over a month after it announced it was fully drawing down its revolver: Boeing. S&P cut Boeing's credit rating by two notches late on Monday, to BBB from A-, as its "cash flows for the next two years are going to be much weaker. And worst of all, Boeing will likely be downgraded again, as S&P kept it on Credit Watch negative, meaning it may be just a matter of time before Boeing is downgraded to junk,

        Boeing is now also seeking "short-term aid" in talks with the White House and lawmakers; in other words a "bailout.

        Boeing was perfectly happy to load up on as much debt as it could over the past decade, the bulk of the proceeds was used for none other than enriching its shareholders and management, with zero consideration for those same employees and suppliers that the company suddenly cares so much about now. And Boeing certainly didn't care about its passengers when it cut every corner it could find, to design the 737 MAX as cheaply as possible, a plane that was "designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys", even if it meant the airplane would become a deathtrap.

        Boeing has repurchased over $100 billion in stocks since 2013, helping push its stock to all-time highs not that long ago.
         
        User avatar
        keesje
        Posts: 13998
        Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:29 pm

        The board is paying it's executives, including Mr. Cahoun, largely based on stock value.

        That sets their priorities.

        Boeing said Mr. Calhoun, who starts as chief executive on Monday, would receive a base salary of $1.4 million and be eligible for an annual target bonus of $2.5 million, long-term incentive awards worth $7.5 million and restricted stock units worth $10 million.
        "Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
         
        SteinarN
        Posts: 178
        Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:26 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:34 pm

        SQ32 wrote:
        Boeing being described by Zerohedge, as clowns and monkeys.


        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/botto ... lion-short

        Stock price has crashed from $350 to $130 in a little over a month after it announced it was fully drawing down its revolver: Boeing. S&P cut Boeing's credit rating by two notches late on Monday, to BBB from A-, as its "cash flows for the next two years are going to be much weaker. And worst of all, Boeing will likely be downgraded again, as S&P kept it on Credit Watch negative, meaning it may be just a matter of time before Boeing is downgraded to junk,

        Boeing is now also seeking "short-term aid" in talks with the White House and lawmakers; in other words a "bailout.

        Boeing was perfectly happy to load up on as much debt as it could over the past decade, the bulk of the proceeds was used for none other than enriching its shareholders and management, with zero consideration for those same employees and suppliers that the company suddenly cares so much about now. And Boeing certainly didn't care about its passengers when it cut every corner it could find, to design the 737 MAX as cheaply as possible, a plane that was "designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys", even if it meant the airplane would become a deathtrap.

        Boeing has repurchased over $100 billion in stocks since 2013, helping push its stock to all-time highs not that long ago.


        Maybe it was this link you intended to share?
        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/boein ... rm-bailout
         
        User avatar
        SQ32
        Posts: 108
        Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:41 pm

        Boeing can move more jobs to India. They will have lots of savings to weather this crisis.(cynical)

        https://www.straitstimes.com/business/c ... ors-former

        Boeing and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as US$9 (S$12.20) an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace - notably India.

        Mr Rabin, the former software engineer, recalled one manager saying at an all-hands meeting that Boeing didn't need senior engineers because its products were mature.

        "I was shocked that in a room full of a couple hundred mostly senior engineers we were being told that we weren't needed," said Mr Rabin, who was laid off in 2015.
         
        SteinarN
        Posts: 178
        Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:26 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:17 pm

        As of this writing Boeing is down ca 15 percent today, to US$110.
        This is a spectacular collapse form the US$440 only one year ago.
         
        User avatar
        BN727227Ultra
        Posts: 695
        Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:35 pm

        Is there a similar Airbus Financial Discussion thread? I don't want to pollute this one. :-)
         
        User avatar
        seahawk
        Posts: 9669
        Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:38 pm

        Good time to buy shares now.
         
        morrisond
        Posts: 2772
        Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:47 pm

        SQ32 wrote:
        Boeing being described by Zerohedge, as clowns and monkeys.


        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/botto ... lion-short

        Stock price has crashed from $350 to $130 in a little over a month after it announced it was fully drawing down its revolver: Boeing. S&P cut Boeing's credit rating by two notches late on Monday, to BBB from A-, as its "cash flows for the next two years are going to be much weaker. And worst of all, Boeing will likely be downgraded again, as S&P kept it on Credit Watch negative, meaning it may be just a matter of time before Boeing is downgraded to junk,

        Boeing is now also seeking "short-term aid" in talks with the White House and lawmakers; in other words a "bailout.

        Boeing was perfectly happy to load up on as much debt as it could over the past decade, the bulk of the proceeds was used for none other than enriching its shareholders and management, with zero consideration for those same employees and suppliers that the company suddenly cares so much about now. And Boeing certainly didn't care about its passengers when it cut every corner it could find, to design the 737 MAX as cheaply as possible, a plane that was "designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys", even if it meant the airplane would become a deathtrap.

        Boeing has repurchased over $100 billion in stocks since 2013, helping push its stock to all-time highs not that long ago.


        Pre-Max Boeing had very little debt. Share repurchases came from excess cash flow. Debt was only about $14B which is nothing for what Boeings revenues and profits were.
         
        chiad
        Posts: 1329
        Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:28 pm

        SteinarN wrote:
        As of this writing Boeing is down ca 15 percent today, to US$110.
        This is a spectacular collapse form the US$440 only one year ago.


        If you only go back a month (feb 12th) the stockprice was 347.
         
        744SPX
        Posts: 254
        Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:52 pm

        I'm fine with bailing out Boeing as long as that money is contingent on getting rid of the MAX, temporarily switching back to NG production for the very few airlines that will absolutely need new aircraft, and moving forward full speed on NSA. I don't want one penny of my tax dollars going to Boeings biggest ever mistake.
         
        goosebayguy
        Posts: 707
        Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:53 pm

        MartijnNL wrote:
        leghorn wrote:
        Boeing need to terminate the 737 and start working on a brand new design. As they should have done years ago. And which they could have done with a fraction of the money the Max fiasco has costed them so far.


        I've been saying this for months now. Boeing had the opportunity to design a new 737 when Airbs did the neo. It would have put Boeing years ahead of everyone ele a omposite frame, fly by wire and an airframe that can withstand high 'G' crashes like the Airbus. Boeing could have updated everything but went for the cheap and dangerous shortcut.

        AFter the MAX crashes they could have done the same a new design and have it ready quickly but they just continued to blindly build MAXs because thier order book was so good. A year on and Boeing i getting into serious trouble. Airlines must be queing up to cancel and get back their deposits because the aircraft have not been delivered as agreed.
         
        User avatar
        SQ32
        Posts: 108
        Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:18 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:14 pm

        I have been waiting for USA to walk her talk for this round of stock market crash. Impose austerity, and ask IMF for bailout. China can tag along with IMF by offering a package to buy Boeing at rock bottom price.

        Unfortunately the FED bailout prevented what Boeing needs most -- creative destruction, bankruptcy restructuring and selling herself off.
         
        Aircellist
        Posts: 1582
        Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:32 pm

        Creative destruction is always best when it hits the others…
        "When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
         
        User avatar
        JetBuddy
        Posts: 2570
        Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:32 pm

        During the Coronavirus press conference today, Trump was asked if the federal government would help Boeing and suppliers like GE. Trump answered "yes, we will help Boeing".

        Sorry, I don't remember the time stamp.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbhnBEiqGGk
         
        User avatar
        Phosphorus
        Posts: 1034
        Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:41 pm

        BN727227Ultra wrote:
        Is there a similar Airbus Financial Discussion thread? I don't want to pollute this one. :-)

        As a member, you are entitled to actually starting one, if that is your wish...
        AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
        Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
         
        User avatar
        FLALEFTY
        Posts: 797
        Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 pm

        Here's a Seattle Times article from 10 years ago describing the then-$800M in tax and land lease incentives South Carolina provided to host the B787 FAL at CHS. South Carolina is a "Right to Work" (anti-union) state, which also played into Boeing's decision. This is an example of Boeing receiving major public assistance in exchange for local jobs creation as South Carolina was working to climb out of the Great Recession. Now, a decade later, Boeing is stuck with a highly-specialized, low-volume, "white elephant" FAL in Charleston at a time of their financial crisis.

        https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... tax-break/
         
        Weatherwatcher1
        Posts: 537
        Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:26 pm

        BN727227Ultra wrote:
        Is there a similar Airbus Financial Discussion thread? I don't want to pollute this one. :-)


        Yes a new one. The financial challenges and pressures are not unique to Boeing
        viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443007
         
        Sokes
        Posts: 1812
        Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:41 pm

        SQ32 wrote:
        Boeing being described by Zerohedge, as clowns and monkeys.
        ...


        And if I may add those who believe in rating agencies against all contradicting evidence are clowns and monkeys as well. There were enough people even here on a.nut who predicted that Boeing's share buybacks and deferred production costs would not end well.


        morrisond wrote:
        Pre-Max Boeing had very little debt. Share repurchases came from excess cash flow. Debt was only about $14B which is nothing for what Boeings revenues and profits were.


        If I have a house which is 500.000 $ worth and debt of 550.000 $ debt, is my debt 50.000$ or 550.000 $?
        I believe you speak of negative equity, not of debt.
        The profits I also want to dispute because of the deferred production costs. If those are paid back by profits as predicted by Boeing, you are right. Otherwise you are wrong. At any rate Boeing has to be held accountable for it's business decisions. We had a seller market for many years. Boeing shareholders don't deserve any empathy.
        Why ask for government help? Boeing's market capitalization is still around 70 billion $.
        https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/char ... market-cap
        Boeing can sell half the company for 30 billion $ by issuing new shares.

        744SPX wrote:
        I'm fine with bailing out Boeing as long as that money is contingent on getting rid of the MAX, temporarily switching back to NG production for the very few airlines that will absolutely need new aircraft, and moving forward full speed on NSA. I don't want one penny of my tax dollars going to Boeings biggest ever mistake.


        Why did the US loose so many jobs in manufacturing?
        I believe regulation over the last decades became rather bad. E.g. bonuses for managers creates a motivation for share buybacks instead of research expenses. Should share buybacks be allowed? It is only when there are spectacular failures that a chance opens for political reforms.
        It doesn't really matter if the government spends 20 billion $ or doesn't. What matters is the signal such a decision sends.

        "A party makes a decision about how much risk to take, while another party bears the costs if things go badly, and the party isolated from risk behaves differently from how it would if it were fully exposed to the risk."
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
        Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
         
        mjoelnir
        Posts: 9391
        Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:51 pm

        morrisond wrote:
        SQ32 wrote:
        Boeing being described by Zerohedge, as clowns and monkeys.


        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/botto ... lion-short

        Stock price has crashed from $350 to $130 in a little over a month after it announced it was fully drawing down its revolver: Boeing. S&P cut Boeing's credit rating by two notches late on Monday, to BBB from A-, as its "cash flows for the next two years are going to be much weaker. And worst of all, Boeing will likely be downgraded again, as S&P kept it on Credit Watch negative, meaning it may be just a matter of time before Boeing is downgraded to junk,

        Boeing is now also seeking "short-term aid" in talks with the White House and lawmakers; in other words a "bailout.

        Boeing was perfectly happy to load up on as much debt as it could over the past decade, the bulk of the proceeds was used for none other than enriching its shareholders and management, with zero consideration for those same employees and suppliers that the company suddenly cares so much about now. And Boeing certainly didn't care about its passengers when it cut every corner it could find, to design the 737 MAX as cheaply as possible, a plane that was "designed by clowns, who are in turn supervised by monkeys", even if it meant the airplane would become a deathtrap.

        Boeing has repurchased over $100 billion in stocks since 2013, helping push its stock to all-time highs not that long ago.


        Pre-Max Boeing had very little debt. Share repurchases came from excess cash flow. Debt was only about $14B which is nothing for what Boeings revenues and profits were.


        You use of course a very narrow definition of debt and of course avoid looking at liabilities and obligations.

        Definition of debt Investopedia: Debt is an amount of money borrowed by one party from another. Debt is used by many corporations and individuals as a method of making large purchases that they could not afford under normal circumstances. A debt arrangement gives the borrowing party permission to borrow money under the condition that it is to be paid back at a later date, usually with interest.

        Definition of total liabilities: Total liabilities are the combined debts and obligations that an individual or company owes to outside parties. All assets of a company are either owned by the entity and classified as equity or are subject to future obligations and recorded as a liability. On the balance sheet, total liabilities plus equity must equal total assets.

        Definition of obligations: An obligation in finance is the responsibility to meet the terms of a contract. If an obligation is not met, the legal system often provides recourse for the injured party.
        How an Obligation Works
        Financial obligations represent any outstanding debts or regular payments that you must make. If you owe or will owe money to anybody, that is one of your financial obligations. Almost any form of money represents a financial obligation—coins, bank notes, or bonds are all promises that you will be credited with the accepted value of the item. Most formal financial obligations, like mortgages, student loans or scheduled service payments, are set down in written contracts signed by both parties. Brokers performing short selling and put options are dealing with obligations.


        If you look at liabilities, that includes everything. What you owe to your suppliers, what you owe to your customers and so on. I know that Boeing did like to talk about low depts, aka only what Boeing owes to financial institutions and did not like to talk about the other liabilities, aka what Boeing owes to everybody else.

        The next point is that a big part of Boeing's assets, exactly at the time of the decision for the MAX, where deferred cost, or you can talk about not existing.

        The point is that all the time Boeing had a low equity, when you take the deferred cost out of the assets, a negative equity. With other words, for years Boeing's assets did not cover it's liabilities. So there was no excessive capital to use on share buy backs. There would rather have been a need to conserve capital.

        You now see the result of billions of share buy backs. Boeing's stock price 5 years ago was 154.50 USD and is now 124.15. That after burning in that time nearly 40 billion USD on share buy backs.
        Airbus, with no share buy backs during that time, 61.40 EUR five years ago, now 63.04 EUR.

        So what have 40 billion stock buy backs bought Boeing, other than burning capital? How would Boeing stand today with a solid equity, rather than with all coffers empty?
         
        Ishrion
        Posts: 2928
        Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:08 pm

        Boeing supports a minimum of $60 billion in funding

        https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130642
         
        MSPNWA
        Posts: 3698
        Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:30 pm

        morrisond wrote:
        Pre-Max Boeing had very little debt. Share repurchases came from excess cash flow. Debt was only about $14B which is nothing for what Boeings revenues and profits were.


        :checkmark: Their debt load pre-grounding was only about a year of free cash flow (Boeing has other substantial future retiree liabilities, but that isn't the same as debt). Paying back the owners from the profit is exactly what any small business would do as well. There was nothing wrong or unusual about how Boeing was conducting its business. Claiming that Boeing was loading up on debt to pay shareholders is simply false. Considering the language used, it appears it's only an emotional, ignorant opinion.

        Sokes wrote:
        If I have a house which is 500.000 $ worth and debt of 550.000 $ debt, is my debt 50.000$ or 550.000 $?
        I believe you speak of negative equity, not of debt.


        Morrisond was clearly talking about debt as the figure is consistent with Boeing's financial statements.

        What it appears to me you're talking about is total liabilities. They are not the same thing. Debt is a liability. Not all liability is a debt.

        mjoelnir wrote:
        You use of course a very narrow definition of debt and of course avoid looking at liabilities and obligations.


        And you have a inaccurate interpretation of debt by lumping all liabilities into the term.

        Low or negative equity is simply not a certain sign of a financially weak company. It only means it could use a closer look. That closer look of Boeing shows us they were in an exceptionally strong financial position a couple years ago and are still in a strong position relative to the industry. They are the last company I would be worried about right now (and I know you're not worried about them). Every airline and subsequently every other manufacturer, including Airbus, are less secure financially. That's were my concerns are placed at the moment.
         
        747megatop
        Posts: 1785
        Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

        Re: Boeing Financial Discussion 2020

        Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:44 pm

        SteinarN wrote:
        As of this writing Boeing is down ca 15 percent today, to US$110.
        This is a spectacular collapse form the US$440 only one year ago.

        When in seen in isolation, spectacular. But when seen in the context of an unprecedented global catastrophe; not spectacular because you will see the same spectacular collapse across industries across companies across countries.
        Lightning has struck twice in Boeing's case; 737 MAX first followed by COVID19.

        We are in an unparalleled situation much greater than 9/11 and 2008 great recession combined with bulk of the airline fleets in 6 continents grounded with a total shutdown looming. The only aviation manufacturer coming out unscathed in this is going to be COMAC. Mods, pls don't delete this post because what i am going to say now is on topic. The question is, what will the long term Boeing financials look like when state backed COMAC will move agressively to take market share from Boeing and Airbus...by perhaps giving airplanes at throwaway prices?

        I foresee Boeing becoming a state backed manufacturer (because it is too big to fail with national security implications)..call it loans OR bail out or whatever....to be able to survive against comac and recover (how many years is anybody's guess).
         
        mila
        Posts: 52
        Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 10:47 am

        Re: Boeing in Crisis

        Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:39 am

        IWMBH wrote:
        Aither wrote:
        IWMBH wrote:
        Also, airlines can't just order Airbus instead of Boeing, Airbus won't be able to fulfil that many orders.

        Except if airlines need less aircraft.


        Even if airlines need less planes it will still be to much for a single airplane manufacturer. And, the corona-virus will be a temporary thing. Look at China, the amount of people with the decease are decreasing.

        But we have Russia if they can get work around of US embargos and China soon so Boeing is not that much needed!
        • 1
        • 2
        • 3
        • 4
        • 5
        • 6
        • 9

        Popular Searches On Airliners.net

        Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

        Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

        Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

        Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

        Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

        Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

        Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

        Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

        Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

        Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

        Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

        Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

        Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

        Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

        Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos