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VirginFlyer
Posts: 5574
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:20 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
chepos wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

It's not like this is new, the airline and entire travel industry is very exposed to pandemics and global political issues. It is the management's job to ensure they have money on hand to whether these short to medium term slow-downs and be flexible enough to be able to cut the fat when times get tough. If this was a one-off situation? sure but this happens on a semi-regular basis even this century there should be no excuse for the US3 not being able to take care of themselves.

The global economy does not shut down on a semi regular basis. Countries around the world do not shut their borders en masse on a semi regular basis. Global pandemics do not occur on a semi regular basis (this is nothing like SARS/H1N1/MERS).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Were you around for 9/11 and the GFC? If you were you would know that the current situation is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the widespread impact on civil aviation. You would need to go back to the Second World War to find a similar impact.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:42 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
chepos wrote:
The global economy does not shut down on a semi regular basis. Countries around the world do not shut their borders en masse on a semi regular basis. Global pandemics do not occur on a semi regular basis (this is nothing like SARS/H1N1/MERS).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Were you around for 9/11 and the GFC? If you were you would know that the current situation is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the widespread impact on civil aviation. You would need to go back to the Second World War to find a similar impact.

V/F


Ah yes, I remember seeing pictures of 1944 with A380's lined up in the desert.
This crisis is unprecedented, but to say that the commercial aviation industry is in comparable state as during WW2 is a bit nonsensical.

As for AA, they should try to get financing on the open market. Issue bonds with a 20% or 30% coupon if they have to. State aid can come when other attempts have failed.
 
Lootess
Posts: 374
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:19 pm

onwFan wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Let's give US taxpayer money to Delta so they can buy more stakes in foreign airlines all around the world like 49% of Virgin Atlantic, 20% of Latam, 10% or whatever it is of Korean and the list goes on and on.

At least American outsources the much less and employees way more Americans with good union jobs.


Turns out those investments ended up being worth it, reducing DL's personal international exposure risk and sharing it with their partners. Cutbacks are much less compared to the other two.

What cutbacks are much less? A majority of DL’s cutbacks have not been loaded yet. In any case, if you are talking about April & May - the more an airline flies, the more they are losing money. So I don’t even see the point.

And we don’t know the fate of most of these investments - especially with all of them being loss making even before the crisis. We are going to see the worth of these investments in the months to come.


LAX-SYD cut
DTW-LHR cut (JFK and ATL only)

Everyday they press release what they are cutting , who cares if it's loaded.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:39 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
chepos wrote:
The global economy does not shut down on a semi regular basis. Countries around the world do not shut their borders en masse on a semi regular basis. Global pandemics do not occur on a semi regular basis (this is nothing like SARS/H1N1/MERS).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Were you around for 9/11 and the GFC? If you were you would know that the current situation is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the widespread impact on civil aviation. You would need to go back to the Second World War to find a similar impact.

V/F


I'm saying lulls in demands are a semi-regular occurrence for the industry, to this magnitude? No. but this is not some freak occurrence, the US3 have been seeing the virus play out in Asia since January it was not a matter of if but when it would hit them first hand in the US and their large international exposure in Europe. What I disagree with is their instant turn to the White House for money. It is not the American people's jobs to bail out the airlines, the industry isn't under the CAB anymore.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:51 pm

In a early afternoon President's Call we were informed that the Company will offer a early-out to our members. Please read the details below.

American offers voluntary options
for leave and early out

American has been acting quickly to adjust to lower demand as a result of coronavirus, or COVID-19. These changes have included significantly reducing American’s schedule beginning in March and continuing into the summer. The company continues to work on options that adjust to lower flying levels and to do what’s best for team members. Starting today, most mainline domestic represented team members can consider:
A voluntary leave of absence
A voluntary early out program

In both programs, the company will determine, based on operational demand and interest, whether to grant a leave of absence or early out, as well as the timing.

Because their workload is already so high, voluntary leaves of absence and early outs are not being offered to Reservations team members at this time. We are also not offering these options broadly to management and support staff. For international team members, the company is looking at options country-by-country.

Voluntary leave of absence
During a voluntary leave under this offering, you will continue to be eligible for medical, dental and vision coverage, life insurance and AD&D benefits at active rates.
You’ll also be eligible for the same non-revenue travel privileges as active team members.

Voluntary early out program
To be eligible, you must have at least 15 years of company seniority and be in an active status.
This is a permanent separation from the company.
Team members will be eligible for medical, dental and vision coverage at active team member rates for two years. You’ll be responsible to pay the bill for your share of the premiums.
Non-revenue travel privileges according to company policy (e.g. 65 point plan/retiree travel if you meet the age and length of service requirements on your exit date).
No pay, except for payout of unused accrued vacation.

For most workgroups, the window for signing up for a voluntary leave of absence or the voluntary early out program opens today, March 17, and closes at midnight Central Time on Monday, March 23.

You will find details, including a FAQ, on Jetnet.
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Skyguy wrote:
Lootess wrote:

None of it is unfounded, Sam uses material facts in the article. AA has double the debt of UA and DL, and over the years AA has not paid it down compared to it's peers instead just been buying back stock.


AA was making over $7billion in annual profits recently, and it spent it's cash on share buy backs and borrowing money to pay for new planes. Why? Doug Parker's compensation is purely in stock, he receives no cash salary, so he convinced the pliable board that stock buyback was the best way to increase shareholder value and therefore his compensation. Talk about misalignment of executive compensation and corporate goals.

AA never made $7 billion in one year in profits.


Billion.....Million....practically the same thing.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:02 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Skyguy wrote:

AA was making over $7billion in annual profits recently, and it spent it's cash on share buy backs and borrowing money to pay for new planes. Why? Doug Parker's compensation is purely in stock, he receives no cash salary, so he convinced the pliable board that stock buyback was the best way to increase shareholder value and therefore his compensation. Talk about misalignment of executive compensation and corporate goals.

AA never made $7 billion in one year in profits.


Billion.....Million....practically the same thing.

Very big difference.
 
Cedar
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:39 pm

For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:23 pm

Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


The entire world is feeling it and many industries rely on others. Just because some airlines didn't learn from their last run through Chapter 11 doesn't mean they should be given leniency now.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:03 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Were you around for 9/11 and the GFC? If you were you would know that the current situation is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the widespread impact on civil aviation. You would need to go back to the Second World War to find a similar impact.

V/F


I'm saying lulls in demands are a semi-regular occurrence for the industry, to this magnitude? No. but this is not some freak occurrence, the US3 have been seeing the virus play out in Asia since January it was not a matter of if but when it would hit them first hand in the US and their large international exposure in Europe. What I disagree with is their instant turn to the White House for money. It is not the American people's jobs to bail out the airlines, the industry isn't under the CAB anymore.


I don't think you're being realistic. I understand what you're trying to say but this specific situation is something no one could have planned for and its unlike anything we've seen in modern times. This is a freak occurrence and it's not just the US3, its global. SARS/Ebola/MERS/H1N1 impact combined doesn't even reach where we're at now. No government was even ready for the possibility of a halt of all public life in the span of less than a month. We're in the middle of the academic schoolyear and hundreds of millions of kids around the world are out of school - and this happened in the span of a week or two. You tell me the last time borders around the world were completely closed or when national carriers just cease operations, not out of bankruptcy, but because of lack of demand or because the airports they operate to are closed? A tiny country like Belgium has more cases than the entire continent of South America, yet all the borders there are closed - is that normal? A "semi-regular lull in demand"?

For the airlines to be turning to the White House for assistance - an airline like DL that has seen record profits and is probably the strongest in the US- suggests to me that the impact is so large that these carriers could legitimately be bankrupt in a number of weeks. Airlines create hundreds of thousands of jobs for their employees but are also responsible for millions of indirect jobs. The ripple effect of millions of jobs evaporated in such a short period of time would be so devastating that even if the virus slows down relatively soon, it'll be years of economic slowdown as a result.

Think of it this way - if you own a restaurant and the government tells people they're no longer allowed to go to restaurants, even if you had the most successful restaurant in the city, how long would you be able to stay afloat with next to no income?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:07 pm

I agree with many posters in this thread. If AA is to accept any government subsidies, AA must:
1, Doug Parker and the previous senior management from HP and US must leave the company
2, Restricted salary and compensation for senior management
3, Be more customer friendly. Customer satisfaction must be incorporated to the new management compensation structure.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:07 pm

Wacker1000 wrote:
Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


The entire world is feeling it and many industries rely on others. Just because some airlines didn't learn from their last run through Chapter 11 doesn't mean they should be given leniency now.


What airline, whose business is flying and moving people, can withstand the blow of people suddenly not being permitted to fly and move? Even the strongest will not survive without some form of aid. This is not GM. And this is a.net, of course we're talking about the airline industry, but make no mistake that many others will be seeking necessary aid as well.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7274
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:27 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I agree with many posters in this thread. If AA is to accept any government subsidies, AA must:
1, Doug Parker and the previous senior management from HP and US must leave the company
2, Restricted salary and compensation for senior management
3, Be more customer friendly. Customer satisfaction must be incorporated to the new management compensation structure.

Since many airlines will be holding their hand out for a bailout, are you going to put a list out of stipulations and measures for each carrier or does this only apply to AA?

Contrary to what some posters on this site seem to believe, AA is not the only one who will need govt assistance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Wacker1000
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:32 pm

NYCVIE wrote:

What airline, whose business is flying and moving people, can withstand the blow of people suddenly not being permitted to fly and move? Even the strongest will not survive without some form of aid. This is not GM. And this is a.net, of course we're talking about the airline industry, but make no mistake that many others will be seeking necessary aid as well.


We'll find out. Odds are it will be the ones that managed their fixed costs, tried attracting customers rather than relying on being the only carrier between two points, maintained their size while not overextending their capabilities, and putting themselves in a position to quickly adapt to a changing market.

It isn't about someone being able to operate business as usual - its who best positioned themselves to survive.
 
delimit
Posts: 840
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:34 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I agree with many posters in this thread. If AA is to accept any government subsidies, AA must:
1, Doug Parker and the previous senior management from HP and US must leave the company
2, Restricted salary and compensation for senior management
3, Be more customer friendly. Customer satisfaction must be incorporated to the new management compensation structure.

The government is obviously fine with AA's business practices, or it would have dealt with them prior to the entire airline industry being decimated. What does this list have to do with the situation we're currently in?
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:36 pm

Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


1. You are arguing that capacity will be too low?! I'm sorry, that is outlandish at this point.
2. Paying taxes does not guarantee anyone anything beyond welfare, public K-12, medicare, Medicaid and social security. This is going to be really tough on low wage hourly aviation workers. The higher paid ones should have been saving for the past 10 years for this crisis, which they would know is periodic. And there will be another one in 2030-2040 also.
3. This has real merit. 9/11 "bailout" was based on government commands. You could argue this. Sort of. But the airports are currently open for business. People can fly. In fact, fares have never been so low in my lifetime I think. I see mid-haul flights for under $40 RT In some cases. Including tax.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:43 pm

Because of the massive fear mongering (to date 105 people have died in the US) people are afraid to fly even with $40 rt fares. While I hope we don't go off on the deep end here in the US and have a complete shut down of airlines it's certainly plausible. Certain people based upon their age and medical conditions should be taking very extra precautions but too many are not. If you are healthy yes you could still get sick and maybe even die but you would be more at risk driving to the airport. Those at high risk are going to continue to get infected, die, and cause the mass hysteria and all that goes with it to go on and on.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 408
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:43 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
chepos wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

It's not like this is new, the airline and entire travel industry is very exposed to pandemics and global political issues. It is the management's job to ensure they have money on hand to whether these short to medium term slow-downs and be flexible enough to be able to cut the fat when times get tough. If this was a one-off situation? sure but this happens on a semi-regular basis even this century there should be no excuse for the US3 not being able to take care of themselves.

The global economy does not shut down on a semi regular basis. Countries around the world do not shut their borders en masse on a semi regular basis. Global pandemics do not occur on a semi regular basis (this is nothing like SARS/H1N1/MERS).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Uh in 2008 Iata recorded a 3.5% decline in demand bookings for most airlines are down ~70% right now its not comparable
 
11C
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:22 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Because of the massive fear mongering (to date 105 people have died in the US) people are afraid to fly even with $40 rt fares. While I hope we don't go off on the deep end here in the US and have a complete shut down of airlines it's certainly plausible. Certain people based upon their age and medical conditions should be taking very extra precautions but too many are not. If you are healthy yes you could still get sick and maybe even die but you would be more at risk driving to the airport. Those at high risk are going to continue to get infected, die, and cause the mass hysteria and all that goes with it to go on and on.

Thanks for proving that it is still possible to be completely ignorant on this subject.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:45 pm

Airlines in general have not been the nicest to customer in recent years they might find the public less than sympathetic. If we are worried about jobs, I would rather the government gave money direct to employees rather than through the middle men of company executives who will find lots of ways to allocate the funds for purposes not directly related to assisting ordinary people.
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
In a early afternoon President's Call we were informed that the Company will offer a early-out to our members. Please read the details below.

American offers voluntary options
for leave and early out

American has been acting quickly to adjust to lower demand as a result of coronavirus, or COVID-19. These changes have included significantly reducing American’s schedule beginning in March and continuing into the summer. The company continues to work on options that adjust to lower flying levels and to do what’s best for team members. Starting today, most mainline domestic represented team members can consider:
A voluntary leave of absence
A voluntary early out program

In both programs, the company will determine, based on operational demand and interest, whether to grant a leave of absence or early out, as well as the timing.

Because their workload is already so high, voluntary leaves of absence and early outs are not being offered to Reservations team members at this time. We are also not offering these options broadly to management and support staff. For international team members, the company is looking at options country-by-country.

Voluntary leave of absence
During a voluntary leave under this offering, you will continue to be eligible for medical, dental and vision coverage, life insurance and AD&D benefits at active rates.
You’ll also be eligible for the same non-revenue travel privileges as active team members.

Voluntary early out program
To be eligible, you must have at least 15 years of company seniority and be in an active status.
This is a permanent separation from the company.
Team members will be eligible for medical, dental and vision coverage at active team member rates for two years. You’ll be responsible to pay the bill for your share of the premiums.
Non-revenue travel privileges according to company policy (e.g. 65 point plan/retiree travel if you meet the age and length of service requirements on your exit date).
No pay, except for payout of unused accrued vacation.

For most workgroups, the window for signing up for a voluntary leave of absence or the voluntary early out program opens today, March 17, and closes at midnight Central Time on Monday, March 23.

You will find details, including a FAQ, on Jetnet.


Trump is saying it's not Boeing's fault, and is proposing assistance, and I agree. Nor is it the airlines' fault. It happened after 9/11 for the airlines, and IMHO should happen now.
 
AAPramugari14
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:35 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:53 pm

None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:05 pm

chepos wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I agree with many posters in this thread. If AA is to accept any government subsidies, AA must:
1, Doug Parker and the previous senior management from HP and US must leave the company
2, Restricted salary and compensation for senior management
3, Be more customer friendly. Customer satisfaction must be incorporated to the new management compensation structure.

Since many airlines will be holding their hand out for a bailout, are you going to put a list out of stipulations and measures for each carrier or does this only apply to AA?

Contrary to what some posters on this site seem to believe, AA is not the only one who will need govt assistance.


This thread is bout AA, so I will only comment on AA. What happens to other airline is not in my interest. I don't make the decision, I am only making a comment from my point of view.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:21 pm

It is sounding more and more likely that the US airline industry will receive $50 billion worth of loan guarantees. This is really all they need IMO. This backstop should allow them to draw any undrawn credit facilities and access the "liquidity" of the assets on the balance sheet like owned aircraft.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5574
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:45 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.

Were you around for 9/11 and the GFC? If you were you would know that the current situation is orders of magnitude greater in terms of the widespread impact on civil aviation. You would need to go back to the Second World War to find a similar impact.

V/F


Ah yes, I remember seeing pictures of 1944 with A380's lined up in the desert.
This crisis is unprecedented, but to say that the commercial aviation industry is in comparable state as during WW2 is a bit nonsensical.

As for AA, they should try to get financing on the open market. Issue bonds with a 20% or 30% coupon if they have to. State aid can come when other attempts have failed.

Indeed there were no A380s lined up in the desert in 1944. Much like there weren’t in 2001 after 9/11, or in 1991 after the Gulf War, or in 1974 after the oil shock, or in 410 after the sack of Rome by the Visigoths. Nonsensical much?

Coming back to sensical things, the aviation industry at the turn of 2020 was of course very different to that of 1939. Indeed it was rather different to that of 2001. So no, of course the impact of the current crisis is not identical to that of previous ones in numbers or types of aircraft. This current crisis is not going to see the demise of 727s or flying boats. We can however look in terms of degree of impact. When was the last time while countries shut themselves down to civil aviation, and airlines en masse reduced operations by between 50% and 100%? I remember 2001 and 2008 very clearly - it definitely didn’t get even remotely close to that then. I remember 1991 much less well, but again I know it didn’t get close to that. 1973/74 definitely caused significant issues for the industry, but again not to the degree we are currently seeing. You do actually have to go back to the 1939-1945 period to see a similar degree of impact in terms of collapse of civil air traffic and closures of borders at a worldwide scale. Now is the current crisis as bad as the Second World War? No, thankfully not. But if it continues for an extended period of time, well, we would be in uncharted territory. It is definitely already exceeding the degree of impact of every crisis since 1945.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:06 pm

AAPramugari14 wrote:
None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.


Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
AAPramugari14 wrote:
None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.


Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.


1) Scott Kirby at UA is far worse. See their refund policy for 'Rona or the instance on no hand baggage for Basic Economy pax for examples.
2) The government should not be micromanaging these companies but, if the government is going to bail them out, it should receive shares just like any other investor.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:49 pm

Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


I’m Arguing against the fact that the airlines are trying to use the government to acquire interest free loans or pure capital injections. They should have first gone to the big banks and aquired lines of credit against their assets like any other business large or small. The tax payers aren’t their emergency fund. Executives shouldn’t be paid and these stock buy backs where they actively used up 90%+ of their cash on hand from record profits should be stopped. The fact the severity of the situation has just started and they’re needing capital injections shows how
Fragile they have made themselves relying on record profits.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
AAPramugari14 wrote:
None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.


Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.

Not the smartest thing to force a CEO during a time of crisis and replace them with someone who isn’t in the know.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:10 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


I’m Arguing against the fact that the airlines are trying to use the government to acquire interest free loans or pure capital injections. They should have first gone to the big banks and aquired lines of credit against their assets like any other business large or small. The tax payers aren’t their emergency fund. Executives shouldn’t be paid and these stock buy backs where they actively used up 90%+ of their cash on hand from record profits should be stopped. The fact the severity of the situation has just started and they’re needing capital injections shows how
Fragile they have made themselves relying on record profits.

You do realize airlines are a low profit margin industry?
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:43 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Cedar wrote:
For those of you against any gov't assitance package - please remember the following:

1.) There are several other business reliant on the airlines - catering, security, hotels, transportation, airports, etc. etc. I can't begin to tell you how much other industry relies on airlines. The list goes on & on and the numbers will astound you.
2.) The airline employees also paid their taxes to the gov't - I am sure they have no problem using their own tax money to help airlines ride this wave so they can keep their job.

And finally - The reason for the slow down in air travel was due to gov't intervention - telling people not to fly, closing borders, banning certain countries, and telling people to stay home. If the slow down was just due to customer demand, I can understand being against it. However, gov't intervened, gov't will assist.

Cedar


I’m Arguing against the fact that the airlines are trying to use the government to acquire interest free loans or pure capital injections. They should have first gone to the big banks and aquired lines of credit against their assets like any other business large or small. The tax payers aren’t their emergency fund. Executives shouldn’t be paid and these stock buy backs where they actively used up 90%+ of their cash on hand from record profits should be stopped. The fact the severity of the situation has just started and they’re needing capital injections shows how
Fragile they have made themselves relying on record profits.

You do realize airlines are a low profit margin industry?


Does that make them at all immune for paying interest on capital injections? American Airlines has made billions of dollars each year in profits in the last 5 years. They're not exactly going to go under for paying interest if they U.S. Government will have to prop them up during this time. The U.S. Tax payers aren't a bank of wealth at the end of the day.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:09 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

I’m Arguing against the fact that the airlines are trying to use the government to acquire interest free loans or pure capital injections. They should have first gone to the big banks and aquired lines of credit against their assets like any other business large or small. The tax payers aren’t their emergency fund. Executives shouldn’t be paid and these stock buy backs where they actively used up 90%+ of their cash on hand from record profits should be stopped. The fact the severity of the situation has just started and they’re needing capital injections shows how
Fragile they have made themselves relying on record profits.

You do realize airlines are a low profit margin industry?


Does that make them at all immune for paying interest on capital injections? American Airlines has made billions of dollars each year in profits in the last 5 years. They're not exactly going to go under for paying interest if they U.S. Government will have to prop them up during this time. The U.S. Tax payers aren't a bank of wealth at the end of the day.

AA is in negotiations with banks for a $4 billion loan and when US borrowed from the ATSB after 9/11 the loan was not interest free.

You do realize the damage that will be done if any of the majors go out of business? Delta announced 600 planes are being parked and cutting 70% of their flights.
 
United1
Posts: 4153
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:38 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
chepos wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:

It's not like this is new, the airline and entire travel industry is very exposed to pandemics and global political issues. It is the management's job to ensure they have money on hand to whether these short to medium term slow-downs and be flexible enough to be able to cut the fat when times get tough. If this was a one-off situation? sure but this happens on a semi-regular basis even this century there should be no excuse for the US3 not being able to take care of themselves.

The global economy does not shut down on a semi regular basis. Countries around the world do not shut their borders en masse on a semi regular basis. Global pandemics do not occur on a semi regular basis (this is nothing like SARS/H1N1/MERS).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9/11 and 2008 come to mind where we had large cuts in demand.


The demand right now is lower than in 9/11 or 2008....much much lower.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:41 am

I am an AA FF, ever since I was a UA 1K who moved over to AA after they merged with US (and US was removed from *A. I am based at DCA/IAD). I hope the US Government gives them NO MONEY. AA spent over $12,400,000,000.00 on stock BUYBACKS since 2014, elevating their share price. The US3 could have been saving money for a rainy day like financial planners tell individuals to do. Everyone who is competent knows the airline industry is cyclical.

They should get dust. Take that bailout money and support the individuals and small businesses affected by those businesses closures. Goodbye.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:35 am

Pellegrine wrote:
I am an AA FF, ever since I was a UA 1K who moved over to AA after they merged with US (and US was removed from *A. I am based at DCA/IAD). I hope the US Government gives them NO MONEY. AA spent over $12,400,000,000.00 on stock BUYBACKS since 2014, elevating their share price. The US3 could have been saving money for a rainy day like financial planners tell individuals to do. Everyone who is competent knows the airline industry is cyclical.

They should get dust. Take that bailout money and support the individuals and small businesses affected by those businesses closures. Goodbye.

So screw the 130,000 employees? And EVERY US based airline spent billions on stock buybacks.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:40 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
I am an AA FF, ever since I was a UA 1K who moved over to AA after they merged with US (and US was removed from *A. I am based at DCA/IAD). I hope the US Government gives them NO MONEY. AA spent over $12,400,000,000.00 on stock BUYBACKS since 2014, elevating their share price. The US3 could have been saving money for a rainy day like financial planners tell individuals to do. Everyone who is competent knows the airline industry is cyclical.

They should get dust. Take that bailout money and support the individuals and small businesses affected by those businesses closures. Goodbye.

So screw the 130,000 employees? And EVERY US based airline spent billions on stock buybacks.


Screw all the airlines. Bailout the employees who work for and the small businesses that service them. Feds should not be bailing out the airlines every 15-20 years.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:49 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
I am an AA FF, ever since I was a UA 1K who moved over to AA after they merged with US (and US was removed from *A. I am based at DCA/IAD). I hope the US Government gives them NO MONEY. AA spent over $12,400,000,000.00 on stock BUYBACKS since 2014, elevating their share price. The US3 could have been saving money for a rainy day like financial planners tell individuals to do. Everyone who is competent knows the airline industry is cyclical.

They should get dust. Take that bailout money and support the individuals and small businesses affected by those businesses closures. Goodbye.

So screw the 130,000 employees? And EVERY US based airline spent billions on stock buybacks.


Screw all the airlines. Bailout the employees who work for and the small businesses that service them. Feds should not be bailing out the airlines every 15-20 years.

So you want to see 750,000 airline employees lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of other associated workers lose their jobs too?

Yet it was ok for the Feds to bailout banks and Wall Street? The fed injected $2.2 trillion into the market the past week. You really want the US to go into a depression? Airline employees suffered enough after 9/11. We lost our pensions, pay and benefits and 100,000 jobs.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:56 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
So screw the 130,000 employees? And EVERY US based airline spent billions on stock buybacks.


Screw all the airlines. Bailout the employees who work for and the small businesses that service them. Feds should not be bailing out the airlines every 15-20 years.

So you want to see 750,000 airline employees lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of other associated workers lose their jobs too?

Yet it was ok for the Feds to bailout banks and Wall Street? The fed injected $2.2 trillion into the market the past week. You really want the US to go into a depression? Airline employees suffered enough after 9/11. We lost our pensions, pay and benefits and 100,000 jobs.


We're going to be in a depression already. Unless they bailout the hospitality industry with already 5 million+ out of work, other industries shutting down, no airline bailouts. Airlines aren't special. IMO, shut the whole economy down for 90+ days, have the Fed print money, pay salaries from the Fed Gov.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:15 am

While share buybacks certainly do not help the airlines in this crisis, they would have probably spent most of their cash in some other ways rather than create a giant pile just in case. No shareholder in the right mind would let any business pile up a massive cash reserve for a totally unpredictable once-in-a-lifetime event, unless there really was no better way to use that cash. Without buybacks, the amount of additional cash the airlines would have on hand today would help at the margins at best.

Nevertheless, airlines should not receive a bailout unless there is no other option, and shareholders do not deserve to be protected (it is capital at risk, after all, not capital at-risk-unless-pandemic).

Rather than the government handing out loans or bailouts, I'd think the first step would be for the government to provide a partial guarantee for commercial loans and/or fresh capital, for a fee paid for by the airlines - in full before dividend, bonus, stock buyback or any other form of transferring wealth to shareholders and executives. If fresh capital is to be raised, current stockholders' equity should decrease by the same amount (yes, I know there's no provision for that - now). I happen to think it is a better option overall than a traditional bankruptcy where shareholders get wiped out, but so do vendors, pension funds, etc.

If the financial sector cannot provide loans or capital even with a government guarantee, then the government can and should step in with loans or bailouts, but again shareholders and executives should be last in line when it comes to profiting from the airline. The goal of the recovery should be to return airlines to the skies so they can support their employees, vendors, and customers, not to bail out their shareholders.

And because the hospitality industry is as likely to be affected, I'd extend the same terms to hotels, restaurants, conventions, etc.

Finally, can someone come up with a regulation where share buybacks are still legal but somehow do not affect the value of stock options (there are legitimate reasons for buybacks after all)?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:19 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

Screw all the airlines. Bailout the employees who work for and the small businesses that service them. Feds should not be bailing out the airlines every 15-20 years.

So you want to see 750,000 airline employees lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of other associated workers lose their jobs too?

Yet it was ok for the Feds to bailout banks and Wall Street? The fed injected $2.2 trillion into the market the past week. You really want the US to go into a depression? Airline employees suffered enough after 9/11. We lost our pensions, pay and benefits and 100,000 jobs.


We're going to be in a depression already. Unless they bailout the hospitality industry with already 5 million+ out of work, other industries shutting down, no airline bailouts. Airlines aren't special. IMO, shut the whole economy down for 90+ days, have the Fed print money, pay salaries from the Fed Gov.

Airlines are special, they are a National Security interest and Interstate Commerce.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:38 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
So you want to see 750,000 airline employees lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of other associated workers lose their jobs too?

Yet it was ok for the Feds to bailout banks and Wall Street? The fed injected $2.2 trillion into the market the past week. You really want the US to go into a depression? Airline employees suffered enough after 9/11. We lost our pensions, pay and benefits and 100,000 jobs.


We're going to be in a depression already. Unless they bailout the hospitality industry with already 5 million+ out of work, other industries shutting down, no airline bailouts. Airlines aren't special. IMO, shut the whole economy down for 90+ days, have the Fed print money, pay salaries from the Fed Gov.

Airlines are special, they are a National Security interest and Interstate Commerce.


Here, then have your money under conditions of nationalization. Do what Sen. Warren basically said with regards to executive pay and stock buybacks, and add that the US Gov. will take equity and be compensated for the bailout in fat times...and create a separate FUND for airlines out of airline profits so that bailouts aren't needed every 15-20 years.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1992
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:46 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

We're going to be in a depression already. Unless they bailout the hospitality industry with already 5 million+ out of work, other industries shutting down, no airline bailouts. Airlines aren't special. IMO, shut the whole economy down for 90+ days, have the Fed print money, pay salaries from the Fed Gov.

Airlines are special, they are a National Security interest and Interstate Commerce.


Here, then have your money under conditions of nationalization. Do what Sen. Warren basically said with regards to executive pay and stock buybacks, and add that the US Gov. will take equity and be compensated for the bailout in fat times...and create a separate FUND for airlines out of airline profits so that bailouts aren't needed every 15-20 years.

You clearly don’t understand the economics of the industry, airlines is one of the lowest profit margin industries, go ask Buffett

1st quarter 2019 from the BTS

1st Quarter Margins

Net margin is the net income or loss as a percentage of operating revenue. Operating margin is the operating profit or loss as a percentage of operating revenue.

Systemwide:
Net income margin:
4.7% in 1Q2019
up from 3.9% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

6.6% in 1Q2019
up from 6.1% in 1Q 2018
Domestic
Net income margin:
4.6% in 1Q2019
up from 3.9% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

6.5% in 1Q2019
up from 6.3% in 1Q 2018
International
Net income margin:
5.1% in 1Q2019
up from 4.0% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

7.0% in 1Q2019
up from 5.8% in 1Q 2018
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2451
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:13 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines are special, they are a National Security interest and Interstate Commerce.


Here, then have your money under conditions of nationalization. Do what Sen. Warren basically said with regards to executive pay and stock buybacks, and add that the US Gov. will take equity and be compensated for the bailout in fat times...and create a separate FUND for airlines out of airline profits so that bailouts aren't needed every 15-20 years.

You clearly don’t understand the economics of the industry, airlines is one of the lowest profit margin industries, go ask Buffett

1st quarter 2019 from the BTS

1st Quarter Margins

Net margin is the net income or loss as a percentage of operating revenue. Operating margin is the operating profit or loss as a percentage of operating revenue.

Systemwide:
Net income margin:
4.7% in 1Q2019
up from 3.9% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

6.6% in 1Q2019
up from 6.1% in 1Q 2018
Domestic
Net income margin:
4.6% in 1Q2019
up from 3.9% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

6.5% in 1Q2019
up from 6.3% in 1Q 2018
International
Net income margin:
5.1% in 1Q2019
up from 4.0% in 1Q 2018
Operating margin:

7.0% in 1Q2019
up from 5.8% in 1Q 2018


I know that airlines are minimally profitable, and I don't even care one bit. I don't invest in airlines, I ride them. I'm more concerned with saving lives right now than saving jobs or anyone's favorite airliner.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
77H
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:48 am

usflyer msp wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AAPramugari14 wrote:
None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.


Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.


1) Scott Kirby at UA is far worse. See their refund policy for 'Rona or the instance on no hand baggage for Basic Economy pax for examples.
2) The government should not be micromanaging these companies but, if the government is going to bail them out, it should receive shares just like any other investor.


The “no baggage in basic economy” sob story is getting so tiresome. The airline makes it exceedingly clear what services you’re entitled to as a basic economy passenger. I know because I’ve purchased several. It is ultimately the consumers choice to purchase that ticket versus a regular economy ticket, etc. It’s like choosing a to buy a Corolla and then complaining it doesn’t perform like a 3 Series.

As for AA’s Oasis product, again the airlines publish seat width, pitch and what amenities one can expect on the aircraft scheduled to operate that flight. For the average person, a plane ticket is not an insignificant purchase. Consumers failing to do their due diligence on what they’re getting for their money is somehow the fault of the airline ?

Depending on the time of year and route being flown, a domestic round trip ticket can cost as much a laptop now days. Would you just walk into an electronic store and buy the first laptop you see simply because it fits your baseline criteria of being a laptop ? Or are you going to do some research and compare models ? If that’s how you make purchases, to each his own but what you end up with is on you.

77H
 
chonetsao
Posts: 594
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Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:59 am

77H wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.


1) Scott Kirby at UA is far worse. See their refund policy for 'Rona or the instance on no hand baggage for Basic Economy pax for examples.
2) The government should not be micromanaging these companies but, if the government is going to bail them out, it should receive shares just like any other investor.



As for AA’s Oasis product, again the airlines publish seat width, pitch and what amenities one can expect on the aircraft scheduled to operate that flight. For the average person, a plane ticket is not an insignificant purchase. Consumers failing to do their due diligence on what they’re getting for their money is somehow the fault of the airline ?

77H



Great, by your own logic

1, Could you show me anywhere in the law saying that airline employee jobs are guaranteed for life and even airline seeking chapter 11? In other words, is that the common sense for any employee to assume their company could potentially bankrupt and they could potentially loose their jobs? Isn't that the due diligence any employee should have in mind? If you want customers to have due diligence, is that difficult to require employee to have due diligence too?
2, Could you show me anywhere saying that when airline management sign up for their jobs and saying the company will always be profitable and if not the government will always bail them out? So where the due diligence for them?

So when AA introduce Oasis, shouldn't Doug Parker and his team realise that it could alienate consumers and make them less likely to sympathise the company when things go wrong? As you call, due diligence. Shouldn't these management gurus read reviews and see how angry people are about their product?

A published seat pitch and width does not mean a thing to at least 80% of the consumers, but one bad impression once onboard will influence their mood thereafter.
 
77H
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:30 am

chonetsao wrote:
77H wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

1) Scott Kirby at UA is far worse. See their refund policy for 'Rona or the instance on no hand baggage for Basic Economy pax for examples.
2) The government should not be micromanaging these companies but, if the government is going to bail them out, it should receive shares just like any other investor.



As for AA’s Oasis product, again the airlines publish seat width, pitch and what amenities one can expect on the aircraft scheduled to operate that flight. For the average person, a plane ticket is not an insignificant purchase. Consumers failing to do their due diligence on what they’re getting for their money is somehow the fault of the airline ?

77H



Great, by your own logic

1, Could you show me anywhere in the law saying that airline employee jobs are guaranteed for life and even airline seeking chapter 11? In other words, is that the common sense for any employee to assume their company could potentially bankrupt and they could potentially loose their jobs? Isn't that the due diligence any employee should have in mind? If you want customers to have due diligence, is that difficult to require employee to have due diligence too?
2, Could you show me anywhere saying that when airline management sign up for their jobs and saying the company will always be profitable and if not the government will always bail them out? So where the due diligence for them?

So when AA introduce Oasis, shouldn't Doug Parker and his team realise that it could alienate consumers and make them less likely to sympathise the company when things go wrong? As you call, due diligence. Shouldn't these management gurus read reviews and see how angry people are about their product?

A published seat pitch and width does not mean a thing to at least 80% of the consumers, but one bad impression once onboard will influence their mood thereafter.


Let’s say pitch and width mean nothing to 80% of consumers and they book on AA and are onboard a Oasis equipped plane.. They find it unacceptable for them personally. The next time they book travel, they’ll show AA what they think by booking elsewhere. End of story.

I’m not saying people can’t express their opinions but to see the same sob stories, thread after thread regardless of the original topic by the same posters is what is tiresome. I think the vast majority of A.Net users get it. Those posters don’t like Oasis, great. Don’t fly AA. Don’t like UA’s basic economy restrictions, don’t book their basic economy product.

77H
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:50 am

I like airlines and the people that work for them. But it's really trucks, railroads, ships and barges that America has to have. If this were WWIII do you really think the Govt would think that all those flights to MCO were absolutely necessary? You would have a nationalized industry with only the "must fly" on it.

It would be wise to reflect on how the US Govt used commercial aviation in WW II. And if Global Warming becomes the next crisis, you'll have the same type of impact.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    runway23
    Posts: 2334
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    Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

    Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:25 am

    Boof02671 wrote:
    TTailedTiger wrote:
    AAPramugari14 wrote:
    None of you on here arguing against aid are thinking realistically... it’s obvious many of you don’t know or can’t comprehend the extent of the US3s influence on our economy. Even without one it would do immediate and possibly irreparable damage to many industries. Please wake up and realize this is nothing anyone could’ve prepared for.


    Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.

    Not the smartest thing to force a CEO during a time of crisis and replace them with someone who isn’t in the know.


    I would say you'd be firing a CEO who was totally negligent and misled investors.

    He was the only one who went parading to the media to claim that AA would never be loss making again.

    It's not like airlines are immune to risk - In the last 20 years: 9/11, SARS (to a very small degree for US airlines), Volcanoes, weather in general and now a massive worldwide pandemic (and just wait until the US gets hit with confinement like many countries in Europe).

    The comment at the time was laughable and now just proves you have a CEO who didn't measure the risks of the industry.
     
    AvroLanc
    Posts: 65
    Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:40 pm

    Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

    Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:37 pm

    Pellegrine wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    Pellegrine wrote:

    Screw all the airlines. Bailout the employees who work for and the small businesses that service them. Feds should not be bailing out the airlines every 15-20 years.

    So you want to see 750,000 airline employees lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands maybe millions of other associated workers lose their jobs too?

    Yet it was ok for the Feds to bailout banks and Wall Street? The fed injected $2.2 trillion into the market the past week. You really want the US to go into a depression? Airline employees suffered enough after 9/11. We lost our pensions, pay and benefits and 100,000 jobs.


    We're going to be in a depression already. Unless they bailout the hospitality industry with already 5 million+ out of work, other industries shutting down, no airline bailouts. Airlines aren't special. IMO, shut the whole economy down for 90+ days, have the Fed print money, pay salaries from the Fed Gov.


    Finally someone who see's the extent of this. In 3-4 months(if we are lucky) people may begin to return to work. These people would have had very limited income during this period and will be in no position to be flying around anywhere. As for those who are privelidged to keep an income during this crisis will find a very different landscape post. I wish everyone well, and stay safe and healthy.
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    Re: Speculation: American Airlines might file bankruptcy again

    Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:00 pm

    77H wrote:
    usflyer msp wrote:
    TTailedTiger wrote:

    Like I said, if aid is given, it should come with conditions. Doug Parker must be forced out of AA if they get any funding. He is the most anti-customer CEO of the legacies. Both F and Y are miserable products thanks to his Oasis projects.


    1) Scott Kirby at UA is far worse. See their refund policy for 'Rona or the instance on no hand baggage for Basic Economy pax for examples.
    2) The government should not be micromanaging these companies but, if the government is going to bail them out, it should receive shares just like any other investor.


    The “no baggage in basic economy” sob story is getting so tiresome. The airline makes it exceedingly clear what services you’re entitled to as a basic economy passenger. I know because I’ve purchased several. It is ultimately the consumers choice to purchase that ticket versus a regular economy ticket, etc. It’s like choosing a to buy a Corolla and then complaining it doesn’t perform like a 3 Series.

    As for AA’s Oasis product, again the airlines publish seat width, pitch and what amenities one can expect on the aircraft scheduled to operate that flight. For the average person, a plane ticket is not an insignificant purchase. Consumers failing to do their due diligence on what they’re getting for their money is somehow the fault of the airline ?

    Depending on the time of year and route being flown, a domestic round trip ticket can cost as much a laptop now days. Would you just walk into an electronic store and buy the first laptop you see simply because it fits your baseline criteria of being a laptop ? Or are you going to do some research and compare models ? If that’s how you make purchases, to each his own but what you end up with is on you.

    77H


    I would not disagree with you. My point was stop dragging AA management as customer unfriendly when the policies instituted by the current management of UA have been far more restrictive for pax.
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