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aemoreira1981
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:17 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
ual763 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:


Not all 300 are mainline jets. I heard from a Delta friend it’s 140 mainline and 160 regional.


Doesn’t look good for Compass. They’ve said there WILL be furloughs. Then again, Compass has been in hot water long before this. But, this may just be their final nail in the coffin.

I can easily see the remaking Compass DL planes getting parked. They have to go through checks and refresh anyway before they get passed on. The same for Transtates. No idea about Blount, the 550’s could easily go back to Skywest.


If it's 160 regional, I see all of the CRJ2s being parked (125 in all). If the remaining Compass and GoJet E175s are due for a heavy check, I could see them being parked too.
 
cbphoto
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:17 pm

DL717 wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
KingB123 wrote:


This is a dangerous precedent. If we couldn’t save flybe (UK regional airline) why should we fund the private for profit only companies who screw their consumers backwards. They’ve got their money reserves. They should use those to navigate the storm.


And what happens when they all go out of business?


The US carriers are poised to weather the storm than they have ever been. It’s going to be painful for sure, but they can handle it. Smaller carriers, particularly in other parts of the world are pretty damn vulnerable right now. In the US think Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, Sun Country may have problems. I think Alaska, for all they’ve done in the last year, if probably the most vulnerable of the larger carriers. A lot of E175 flying that could be shed pretty quickly. If they do, it will hit SkyWest pretty hard. We could see smaller regionals disappear or get gobbled up. Could see the end of the CRJ family with this, save for a handful of newer ones. I can see DL parking large chunks of their MD/717 fleet, possibly all of the MD-80s permanently.


I actually disagree with the US portion of your statement. The big 3 are going to be the most vulnerable to international route suspensions. A huge chunk of their revenue comes from those premium cabins on those long haul routes, especially to Europe. The big 3 also have regional airlines to consider and may need to inject money into their regional partners to keep them afloat to avoid a sudden mass of decreased capacity should a regional partner go bankrupt. I can’t see any of the big 3 folding completely, but it will be a long time before it business as usual for them.

No doubt every airlines will feel this in one way or another, the likes of Spirt, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country will actually weather this better then you think. Of course, should domestic travel come to a halt, every airline will be in deep trouble, but the ULCC have a much lower cost base to help them on the back end of this ordeal.
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AngelsDecay
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:36 pm

caliboy93 wrote:
Which airlines are most likely to go out of business due to the COVID pandemic?


Go out of business I really don't know... But one surely will still flying its Alitalia;)
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NWAJT8D
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:44 pm

When all is said and done, and all the airlines have sent their planes to the boneyard when demand is dried up...

A batch of Northwest DC-9s will come pick up the crews.

:duck:
 
uta999
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UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:54 pm

The chairman of Virgin pleads (on behalf of the aviation sector) for the UK government to offer £7.5B bailout now, or airlines could go under within weeks.


http://news.sky.com/story/virgin-atlant ... t-11957708
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Aircellist
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:58 pm

Morocco suspends flights to and from 29 countries:

-Austria, Denmark, Swiss, Suede, Norway, Turkey;
-Lebanon, Egypt, Bahrein, UAE, Oman, Jordan, Tunisia;
-Senegal, Mauretania, Niger, Mali, Chad, Canada and Brazil.

I was there with my mom, last week! We came back on sunday the 8th, everything still looked normal in the streets (we were in Marrakech).

Source, in French:

https://www.medias24.com/le-maroc-suspe ... -8346.html
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OzarkD9S
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:17 pm

Good luck with that.
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mham001
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:39 pm

madpropsyo wrote:

And what happens when they all go out of business?


New companies will rise up to meet demand?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:56 pm

Flydataguy on twitter, posting some of AA's April Reductions:
https://twitter.com/FlyDataGuy

Domestic flight reductions by hub:
ORD: -38 daily flts (-9%)
PHX: -29.5 daily flts (-12%)
LAX: -25 daily flts (-14%)
DFW: -20 daily flts (-3%)
CLT: -14 daily flts (-2%)
PHL: -11.6 daily flights (-3.5)
MIA: -6 daily flts (-3%)
JFK: -3 daily flts (-5%)

LAX-SFO: 8->4
LAX-SJC: 6-> 4
LAX-SAN: 5-> 3

I'm assuming some of these haven't hit AA.com yet
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Brickell305
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:58 pm

cbphoto wrote:
DL717 wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

And what happens when they all go out of business?


The US carriers are poised to weather the storm than they have ever been. It’s going to be painful for sure, but they can handle it. Smaller carriers, particularly in other parts of the world are pretty damn vulnerable right now. In the US think Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, Sun Country may have problems. I think Alaska, for all they’ve done in the last year, if probably the most vulnerable of the larger carriers. A lot of E175 flying that could be shed pretty quickly. If they do, it will hit SkyWest pretty hard. We could see smaller regionals disappear or get gobbled up. Could see the end of the CRJ family with this, save for a handful of newer ones. I can see DL parking large chunks of their MD/717 fleet, possibly all of the MD-80s permanently.


I actually disagree with the US portion of your statement. The big 3 are going to be the most vulnerable to international route suspensions. A huge chunk of their revenue comes from those premium cabins on those long haul routes, especially to Europe. The big 3 also have regional airlines to consider and may need to inject money into their regional partners to keep them afloat to avoid a sudden mass of decreased capacity should a regional partner go bankrupt. I can’t see any of the big 3 folding completely, but it will be a long time before it business as usual for them.

No doubt every airlines will feel this in one way or another, the likes of Spirt, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country will actually weather this better then you think. Of course, should domestic travel come to a halt, every airline will be in deep trouble, but the ULCC have a much lower cost base to help them on the back end of this ordeal.


Agreed. For example, I’m sure UA highly regrets re-fitting their regional and LHR bound flights to be so premium heavy. The moment business demand dried up, that must have been a millstone around their necks.
 
ual763
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:58 pm

mham001 wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

And what happens when they all go out of business?


New companies will rise up to meet demand?


Because a startup company can replace hundreds of jet airliners and tens of thousands of employees... Let’s be honest here. There are companies that are just too important/vital to let fail. BA is one of them.
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bluefrog
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:59 pm

with all the cut backs in flying i just saw on flightradar24 BA on the JNB/LHR and LHR/JNB fliying the A380 on both flights out of both airports BA 54/55 and BA56/57 surely the load factor can't be that high that it needs 2 380's 2 hours apart ,amazing if so
 
KingB123
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:01 pm

No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.
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AASAP777
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:02 pm

Air Europa shutting down flights to SAP effective now:

https://noticias247.hn/air-europa-cance ... -y-espana/ (in Spanish)
Last edited by AASAP777 on Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:02 pm

That BA is too big too fail doesn't mean full protection for shareholders, bondholders and unsecured creditors. They can - and should be made to - eat it. Assist workers, not shareholders.
 
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chepos
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:07 pm

I see a lot of focus on BA, however, it seems with VS putting most of it’s eggs in the US market,. It seems to me they also in a very vulnerable position


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Goodbye
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:09 pm

KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


And the thousands of people employed by those airlines...?
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speedbird52
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:12 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Good luck with that.

Have fun when the entirety of the UK has just one airline serving it.
 
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:14 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
ArtV wrote:
malaysia wrote:


Thought China travel is still banned?


Freight, freight, freight.....the pax may not want to travel, but the belly can be full and prices are higher to cover the missing pax.


I don’t think it is logistically possible. The duty rules would have to be severely modified to allow a single crew out and back, or to allow having another crew aboard to operate back. If they get off the plane they are stuck in a hot zone. If they have a mechanical they are stuck in a hot zone.

Do you think any Union is going to agree to that right now?

Crew is not subject to ban.

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ZazuPIT
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:15 pm

One of the problems with airlines getting bailouts in X number of months is that this has the potential to devastate many industries and companies. Who decides which is more important? If the mishandling of this in the U.S. early on is any example, it's not going to be pretty.
 
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:18 pm

Air Baltic to suspend all operations for a month from 17 March

https://twitter.com/flightintl/status/1 ... 11745?s=21
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DL717
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:18 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
cbphoto wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The US carriers are poised to weather the storm than they have ever been. It’s going to be painful for sure, but they can handle it. Smaller carriers, particularly in other parts of the world are pretty damn vulnerable right now. In the US think Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, Sun Country may have problems. I think Alaska, for all they’ve done in the last year, if probably the most vulnerable of the larger carriers. A lot of E175 flying that could be shed pretty quickly. If they do, it will hit SkyWest pretty hard. We could see smaller regionals disappear or get gobbled up. Could see the end of the CRJ family with this, save for a handful of newer ones. I can see DL parking large chunks of their MD/717 fleet, possibly all of the MD-80s permanently.


I actually disagree with the US portion of your statement. The big 3 are going to be the most vulnerable to international route suspensions. A huge chunk of their revenue comes from those premium cabins on those long haul routes, especially to Europe. The big 3 also have regional airlines to consider and may need to inject money into their regional partners to keep them afloat to avoid a sudden mass of decreased capacity should a regional partner go bankrupt. I can’t see any of the big 3 folding completely, but it will be a long time before it business as usual for them.

No doubt every airlines will feel this in one way or another, the likes of Spirt, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country will actually weather this better then you think. Of course, should domestic travel come to a halt, every airline will be in deep trouble, but the ULCC have a much lower cost base to help them on the back end of this ordeal.


Agreed. For example, I’m sure UA highly regrets re-fitting their regional and LHR bound flights to be so premium heavy. The moment business demand dried up, that must have been a millstone around their necks.


Won’t matter when they ground domestic flights.
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onwFan
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:19 pm

chepos wrote:
I see a lot of focus on BA, however, it seems with VS putting most of it’s eggs in the US market,. It seems to me they also in a very vulnerable position


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. I think VS is an even more vulnerable position - they are not part of the EU3, and DL/AF/KL’s priorities are different now. They are significantly smaller than BA and their route network is a subset of BA’s. If it comes to state aid, will the UK prop up both of them?
 
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:19 pm

KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


You refuse? :lol:

As a UK taxpayer, what say do you have on what your taxes are and aren't spent on? Probably the same as me - none.
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:21 pm

Saudi Arabia suspends all International flights for the next 2 weeks starting Sunday.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coron ... or-2-weeks
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:21 pm

qf789 wrote:
Air Baltic to suspend all operations for a month from 17 March

https://twitter.com/flightintl/status/1 ... 11745?s=21


I see this also accelerating the retirement of anything not BCS3 in their fleet, and when they return, they'll only be operating one type---the BCS3/A220-300.
 
eidvm
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:25 pm

KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


And if all airlines crash? If there are none left? How many other businesses will collapse? Entire tourist industries, many other businesses that rely on connections off the island you live on?

Airlines are not only businesses on their own but enablers of many other businesses around the country, similar to the bank bailouts back in 2008/09, sometimes some businesses are too big to fail, write off the shareholders, the bondholders and the unsecured creditors, but the core activity of the businesses must be protected to support the wider economy, the investment is not just in the company itself but all the hotels, restaurants, cafes, activity centers, cultural centers etc that rely on visitors from abroad.
 
chonetsao
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:27 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Good luck with that.

Have fun when the entirety of the UK has just one airline serving it.


How about the billionaire from a certain part of virgin island come to rescue his own airline using his own money? Since he still owns 51% of VS. Why tax payer should pick up the bill if the owner has money himself? He could sell his pet space company to rescue VS. If he does not want to I don't see why tax payer should be the first to call.

Just my two mach.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:31 pm

Goodbye wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


And the thousands of people employed by those airlines...?


Some people do forget that the UK taxpayer also funds the welfare system, which thousands of ordinary airline staff may find themselves having to rely on.

If the banking industry can be bailed out with what are effectively loans, then so can the airline industry, as long as the money comes back to the taxpayer. Ordinarily I'd agree with the notion of letting ailing businesses fail, but these are extraordinary circumstances.

Unfortunately it's not only airlines that are going to need financial support in the coming weeks though. And yes I do find it slightly obscene the complete silence coming from a certain billionaire associated with the Virgin branding.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:32 pm

Not easy, but £7.5Bn is a fair whack, ground all the planes if they have to, government support for the staff if they are laid off, (along with tourism, restaurant etc staff who are also going to be hit) but business is business. There's a limit to what the government can and should do. Sorry to be a bit Adam Smith about this, but one (or more) airlines will form themselves out of whatever is left and need planes and staff so long term it will work out.
 
BlueTrue
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:32 pm

Remember governments have taken the business away in this case.
 
787SIN
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:32 pm

The consequences of airlines failing is massive, think about all the staff in support industries? Direct such as ground handlers, caterers and the such. Then the indirect the ones that supply the caterers, fix the aircraft parts. Then there are the industries the transport particularly aviation industry enables. Also lots of vital cargo is carried in the bellies of passenger planes, they stop then medical supplies, fruits and other stuff may suddenly start disappearing with the demise of the airlines if it gets that bad.

So airlines failing will have a massive effect, but guess the whole global economy is about to take a knock out punch.

One thing I would say, if the government does bail them out they must be some protections for the staff involved...
 
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:33 pm

Anyone want to take a guess on the chances of me being able to get home from CDG thru LHR to MIA on the 23rd? Right now AA has me on CDG-MIA but I know that won’t happen, so hoping I’ll be able to do CDG-LHR-MIA.
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madpropsyo
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:34 pm

chepos wrote:
I see a lot of focus on BA, however, it seems with VS putting most of it’s eggs in the US market,. It seems to me they also in a very vulnerable position


Is Delta at significant risk here? They outsourced a huge amount of their international flying through JVs by taking financial stake in those companies and re-configuring their networks to serve US international routes, and now those companies are seeing their business evaporate. I'm not financially savvy enough to understand the implications but it seems at face value to expose DL to huge financial risk. Can anyone chime in?
 
rojo
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:35 pm

KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


There won't be much left of the UK if the government lets all industries collapse. The airline industry touches so many other industries and they will all suffer. Just talk to the procurement people at an airline and you'll get a better picture. A little selfish on your side...
 
ethernal
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:44 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
chepos wrote:
I see a lot of focus on BA, however, it seems with VS putting most of it’s eggs in the US market,. It seems to me they also in a very vulnerable position


Is Delta at significant risk here? They outsourced a huge amount of their international flying through JVs by taking financial stake in those companies and re-configuring their networks to serve US international routes, and now those companies are seeing their business evaporate. I'm not financially savvy enough to understand the implications but it seems at face value to expose DL to huge financial risk. Can anyone chime in?


It exposes them to financial risk, but not in the sense that it puts them at a higher risk of bankruptcy. The money to buy the equity stakes has already been spent (of course one could say that a counterfactual is that they could have paid off debt but it is far more likely they would have just paid out the extra cash in dividends). There is no further "drag" on their cash. And cash is king: every single airline now has a timer running over their head. Some (like Delta's) are longer than others - but I can guarantee you that every single airline is cashflow negative.

Cashflow negative operations mean that - over a long enough timeline - you are destined to bankruptcy, or at the very least, require outside investors to be willing to continue to fund your cash burn. In this case, outside investors are more likely to be governments than anyone else.

Out of the US3, American is definitely the most exposed, but even they are on somewhat solid financial footing and don't have any major debts maturing. The European legacies are definitely more at risk - much more bruised and battered from the ULCCs that dominate continental Europe today and the overall weaker EU economy.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:46 pm

I could see a government backed guaranteed loan to keep them afloat ... something has to happen
 
Galwayman
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:47 pm

Let VS crash , it’s never really had a very good business strategy and rarely if ever made profits while paying poverty cabin crew wages , dragging BA ‘s profitability down ... U.K. will do fine with IAG and FR .
 
ual763
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:48 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
chepos wrote:
I see a lot of focus on BA, however, it seems with VS putting most of it’s eggs in the US market,. It seems to me they also in a very vulnerable position


Is Delta at significant risk here? They outsourced a huge amount of their international flying through JVs by taking financial stake in those companies and re-configuring their networks to serve US international routes, and now those companies are seeing their business evaporate. I'm not financially savvy enough to understand the implications but it seems at face value to expose DL to huge financial risk. Can anyone chime in?


Simple answer is that EVERY airline is at huge financial risk, most definitely including Delta. The unique problem Delta has though, compared to AA & UA, isn’t so much what’s happening now, rather what will happen when this is over. For example, Korean Air is seriously on brink of collapse. Virgin, if God forbid, doesn’t make it out of this (Although, I think they’d get bailed out by British govt.), then Delta’s modus operandi will be gone, meaning their primary joint venture model. They will have to rethink the entire way they do business. AAL has Qantas & BAW to fall back on as partners. And UA has Lufthansa/ANA. These are all much safer bets for bailouts than Korean/Virgin. Not to mention, AA & UA don’t even rely on their JV partners that heavily. Delta relies heavily on their partners though. Not saying it will happen (I pray it won’t happen), but realistically Delta’s challenges may continue well past the current ordeal depending on what happens to her partners.

Delta itself will most likely get a bailout of it were to come to that, but I can’t say for certain if their partners will. Hope that made a little sense.
Last edited by ual763 on Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spinotter
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Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:48 pm

KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


Even BA?
 
GoSharks
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:50 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
cbphoto wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The US carriers are poised to weather the storm than they have ever been. It’s going to be painful for sure, but they can handle it. Smaller carriers, particularly in other parts of the world are pretty damn vulnerable right now. In the US think Frontier, Allegiant, Spirit, Sun Country may have problems. I think Alaska, for all they’ve done in the last year, if probably the most vulnerable of the larger carriers. A lot of E175 flying that could be shed pretty quickly. If they do, it will hit SkyWest pretty hard. We could see smaller regionals disappear or get gobbled up. Could see the end of the CRJ family with this, save for a handful of newer ones. I can see DL parking large chunks of their MD/717 fleet, possibly all of the MD-80s permanently.


I actually disagree with the US portion of your statement. The big 3 are going to be the most vulnerable to international route suspensions. A huge chunk of their revenue comes from those premium cabins on those long haul routes, especially to Europe. The big 3 also have regional airlines to consider and may need to inject money into their regional partners to keep them afloat to avoid a sudden mass of decreased capacity should a regional partner go bankrupt. I can’t see any of the big 3 folding completely, but it will be a long time before it business as usual for them.

No doubt every airlines will feel this in one way or another, the likes of Spirt, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country will actually weather this better then you think. Of course, should domestic travel come to a halt, every airline will be in deep trouble, but the ULCC have a much lower cost base to help them on the back end of this ordeal.


Agreed. For example, I’m sure UA highly regrets re-fitting their regional and LHR bound flights to be so premium heavy. The moment business demand dried up, that must have been a millstone around their necks.

I don’t see how that matters. It isn’t like people are flying for leisure and are filling economy cabins,
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13135
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:54 pm

The UK government was already planning massive spending it couldn't afford, so 7 billions more won't matter anyway.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4221
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:55 pm

We need to save the airline industry. It is cheap to print money the world around, so that is not a problem. We (governments) should expect to sell that money the airlines need for stock. It should, if properly priced, result in a win-win situation. They get money, government gets some profit selling the stock in a few years. I think this is a 'market' solution.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4947
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:05 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
We need to save the airline industry. It is cheap to print money the world around, so that is not a problem. We (governments) should expect to sell that money the airlines need for stock. It should, if properly priced, result in a win-win situation. They get money, government gets some profit selling the stock in a few years. I think this is a 'market' solution.

The airlines in the USA have been making record profits for years now. They really are already insolvent?
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:09 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
That BA is too big too fail doesn't mean full protection for shareholders, bondholders and unsecured creditors. They can - and should be made to - eat it. Assist workers, not shareholders.


to be fair, aren't some of those workers also shareholders? If so, then all we are doing is hurting those same people x2.
but many people don't think about it from that perspective because we like to put a stigma on shareholders as rich/etc.
when in fact a large % of the ownership of IAG is institutional funds on behalf of workers and others saving for retirement
 
Arion640
Posts: 3060
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:10 am

scbriml wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


You refuse? :lol:

As a UK taxpayer, what say do you have on what your taxes are and aren't spent on? Probably the same as me - none.


Except a little bit of cash help now can stop thousands out of jobs in a few months time.

If virgin was a poorly run business i’d say fine, but these are extraordinary circumstances.
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:16 am

32andBelow wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
We need to save the airline industry. It is cheap to print money the world around, so that is not a problem. We (governments) should expect to sell that money the airlines need for stock. It should, if properly priced, result in a win-win situation. They get money, government gets some profit selling the stock in a few years. I think this is a 'market' solution.

The airlines in the USA have been making record profits for years now. They really are already insolvent?


No, they are not. In fact they are all taking actions to protect themselves, but if the booking numbers people are saying are true (which it seems they are). It will get ugly very fast.
I had a friend of a friend come back from FL yesterday on Spirit and they had 2 people on the flight. Even for them that was not a profitable flight.

I think we are talking about how much debt can these airlines absorb, UA and DL have good debt to equity, but AA is lagging there.
As long as the debt markets stay active and they can finance they all should make it.
However, they can't pay everyone, so you are looking at mass layoffs. If the government does not want that then they will have to pay for that.
 
trex8
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:19 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
We need to save the airline industry. It is cheap to print money the world around, so that is not a problem. We (governments) should expect to sell that money the airlines need for stock. It should, if properly priced, result in a win-win situation. They get money, government gets some profit selling the stock in a few years. I think this is a 'market' solution.

Thats essentially how GM got saved by the US government.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4947
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:22 am

ordbosewr wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
We need to save the airline industry. It is cheap to print money the world around, so that is not a problem. We (governments) should expect to sell that money the airlines need for stock. It should, if properly priced, result in a win-win situation. They get money, government gets some profit selling the stock in a few years. I think this is a 'market' solution.

The airlines in the USA have been making record profits for years now. They really are already insolvent?


No, they are not. In fact they are all taking actions to protect themselves, but if the booking numbers people are saying are true (which it seems they are). It will get ugly very fast.
I had a friend of a friend come back from FL yesterday on Spirit and they had 2 people on the flight. Even for them that was not a profitable flight.

I think we are talking about how much debt can these airlines absorb, UA and DL have good debt to equity, but AA is lagging there.
As long as the debt markets stay active and they can finance they all should make it.
However, they can't pay everyone, so you are looking at mass layoffs. If the government does not want that then they will have to pay for that.

Well I think we need to relax with the bailouts. I think the majors are gonna be just fine. And if they aren’t in a year or two then we can look at it.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8342
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:26 am

UK taxpayers have to do whatever best serves their country.
Let me rephrase, your elected representatives will do whatever suits their interests the best.

At least put a clause in bailout bill forcing BA to serve complimentary meals and full-size candy bars on their long-haul.

£7.5B is bit much for Mini Mars.
All posts are just opinions.

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