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ThePointblank
Posts: 3459
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:42 am

Nickd92 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
So they are going to have to put their big boy pants on. Many go into a bit of debt and get through it. Maybe it’s time for US companies to raise money as opposed to more and more stock by backs.

That's if lenders are willing to lend money in the current environment. A lot of investors and banks are spooked pretty badly right now.

If lenders aren't willing to lend money, or are only willing to do it with subprime rates, it will hasten the demise of airlines that don't have a strong fiscal cushion to fall back on.


Then what happens when they receive all them assets that they cannot shift unlike in Normal circumstances? It's in the best interests of the banks to keep theses businesses going. Otherwise they'll be no one with any Capital out there to start up once we are back to Normal.

No, what will happen is that banks will then quickly move to secure the collateral and liquidate the assets ASAP, even if they take a bit of a loss in an attempt to recover their money, especially if they start feeling pressure as depositors start withdrawing their money.

It also affects future loans and re-negotiations for existing loans as well; banks will be far less willing to lend money, and for existing lenders who need to renew their loans, they might find it significantly more difficult to refinance the loans as a result, with higher interest rates and collateral requirements as a result.

Banks may also experience their own liquidity crisis as well if they have too many loans that they suddenly struggle to collect on, and depositors suddenly move to pull their money out of the bank, causing a bank run.
 
Lootess
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:46 am

Negative overall bookings outlook for even a month is enough to wipe out a lot of profits and send red ink everywhere. It's not sustainable. The airlines that kept paying down debt over the years like DL will certainly make every dollar stretch well over AA which just kept adding more and more.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7411
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:48 am

Remember recently certain airline saying how unfair it would be to bail out Flybe, and now.......
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:54 am

So when and where is Delta going to park over 300 planes? I read "in the coming months", but that is quite vague and to me that seems quite far away given the crazy crash in air travel.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
acentauri
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:35 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:56 am

This is the current Status of the PHL Parking Garages (at this Posting Time). Note Garage "A", which is principally used for International Flights.
3/15/2020 PHL Philadelphia International Airport | PHL.org
https://www.phl.org 1/7
FLIGHT INFORMATION
Airline, Flight Number, or City
Find My Flight
PARKING INFORMATION
Garage A 3% FULL
Garage B 72% FULL
Garage C 92% FULL
Garage D 100% FULL
Garage E & F 32% FULL
Economy Parking 50% FULL
AAdvantage ® Aviator® Lot 21% FULL
 
BOSAero
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:32 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:03 am

seat1a wrote:
anyone have a pulse on how hawaiian is managing their business? thanks.

At Hawaiian, it's business as usual so far. With the exception of Incheon and Tokyo flights temporary suspension that were already announced.
 
Eikie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:03 am

readytotaxi wrote:
Remember recently certain airline saying how unfair it would be to bail out Flybe, and now.......

There is a difference between bailing out a failed airline in times of good economy and bailing out an entire industry during the worst global event in decennia.
 
BOSAero
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:32 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:10 am

BOSAero wrote:
seat1a wrote:
anyone have a pulse on how hawaiian is managing their business? thanks.

At Hawaiian, it's business as usual so far. With the exception of Incheon and Tokyo flights temporary suspension that were already announced.


Quote from President/CEO Peter Ingram to employees.

"Some immediate actions that we will be taking include:

Schedule Adjustments: The best way to preserve cash in the long run while maintaining our company’s stability is to reduce our flight schedule to closer match lower demand. We have decided to decrease our systemwide capacity by about 8-10 percent in April and 15-20 percent in May compared with our original 2020 plan. Our Network Planning team is in the process of finalizing specific adjustments.
Hiring Freeze: We have put all hiring on hold until we find the turning point in this health emergency.
Voluntary Leave: Human Resources will be offering non-contract employees the ability to take voluntary leave – without pay, but with benefits – on a per-pay-period basis for the next six months. You will not be expected to work remotely if you sign up. A bulletin with details will be sent from SVP of Human Resources Robin Kobayashi.
Board and Executive Compensation Adjustments: Our Board of Directors, my senior officer colleagues and I are acutely conscious of the effect that schedule changes have on our ‘ohana. It is important to us that we lead this effort by adjusting our compensation. I will be returning 20 percent of my salary through at least June, while EVPs will be returning 15 percent and the SVPs will be returning 10 percent. Board members have elected to forgo 20 percent of their cash compensation during the same period."
 
Nickd92
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:23 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Nickd92 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
That's if lenders are willing to lend money in the current environment. A lot of investors and banks are spooked pretty badly right now.

If lenders aren't willing to lend money, or are only willing to do it with subprime rates, it will hasten the demise of airlines that don't have a strong fiscal cushion to fall back on.


Then what happens when they receive all them assets that they cannot shift unlike in Normal circumstances? It's in the best interests of the banks to keep theses businesses going. Otherwise they'll be no one with any Capital out there to start up once we are back to Normal.


No, what will happen is that banks will then quickly move to secure the collateral and liquidate the assets ASAP, even if they take a bit of a loss in an attempt to recover their money, especially if they start feeling pressure as depositors start withdrawing their money.

It also affects future loans and re-negotiations for existing loans as well; banks will be far less willing to lend money, and for existing lenders who need to renew their loans, they might find it significantly more difficult to refinance the loans as a result, with higher interest rates and collateral requirements as a result.

Banks may also experience their own liquidity crisis as well if they have too many loans that they suddenly struggle to collect on, and depositors suddenly move to pull their money out of the bank, causing a bank run.


They'll make a loss by selling to who? If no airline is flying or growing, no airline will want more aircraft. They will also not require any spare parts so therefore it makes no sense to sell these aircraft off to scrap yards as they too will be overstocked with no airline buying spares etc. Especially if have a stock of spares already sat there from the previous years.

Banks need to be carefully managed by the governments and they will be. They have to support the economy. After all - we, much to my despair, supported them with the 2008 crisis when they brought that on themselves.
 
tapairbus370
Posts: 244
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:49 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
Ironic how terrorists tried to bring down the western economy nearly 19 years ago and failed, yet one little virus has done twice the damage in only two weeks. Is this the new norm? Are we going to crash the economy and the industry every disease outbreak? Scary times



This really show us that the way we had build/ are building are society is not the correct one.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:33 am

AeroVega wrote:
NOTHING, really? We would not be in this mess were it not for all those profitable airlines spreading the virus all over the globe. You should feel more sorry for all those affected industries that really had nothing to do with this outbreak.


You are aware that a century ago and dozens of times before that, a pandemic spread around the globe just fine without Commercial jets, Every intelligent well read person on Earth knew this was going to happen sooner or later.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:40 am

PacoMartin wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
NOTHING, really? We would not be in this mess were it not for all those profitable airlines spreading the virus all over the globe. You should feel more sorry for all those affected industries that really had nothing to do with this outbreak.


You are aware that a century ago and dozens of times before that, a pandemic spread around the globe just fine without Commercial jets, Every intelligent well read person on Earth knew this was going to happen sooner or later.


This raises an interesting point - were airlines prepared for this? We often hear about “crisis planning” and contingency plans for every scenario possible, but honestly with the response thus far, you have to wonder...

Planning for a black swan event like 9/11 is one thing, planning for a pandemic that seems to (fairly) regularly engulf the globe is another.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:52 am

It’s not business, it’s a once in a generation global catastrophe. Businesses can not mitigate for this. They will need propping up with public money to avoid untold damage to the very fabric of society for the next decade!

Do you want 50% unemployment? Mass defaulting on mortgages etc? The threat to society is not from the virus, but the devastating economic effects of the battle against it.

Get real, the governments have to do whatever it takes to protect industry.

KingB123 wrote:
eidvm wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
No chance, I as a UK Tax payer refuse to pay for these failing airlines, if they crash they crash. That is business.


And if all airlines crash? If there are none left? How many other businesses will collapse? Entire tourist industries, many other businesses that rely on connections off the island you live on?

Airlines are not only businesses on their own but enablers of many other businesses around the country, similar to the bank bailouts back in 2008/09, sometimes some businesses are too big to fail, write off the shareholders, the bondholders and the unsecured creditors, but the core activity of the businesses must be protected to support the wider economy, the investment is not just in the company itself but all the hotels, restaurants, cafes, activity centers, cultural centers etc that rely on visitors from abroad.


Thats business, the same can be said about all these other airlines that have collapsed! Why hasn't anyone came and stepped in for those airlines that fell under. Its like a rule for some and then another kind of rule for others. Treat them all the same.
 
sdbelgium
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:14 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:55 am

readytotaxi wrote:
BBC news is reporting that Jet2 has cancelled all flights to the Canary Islands today. However at the moment there are 18 jets on route there, I guess they are empty and are going to pickup returning passengers.

Yes, that is correct. Virtually all flights being operated now are repatriation flights (going out empty and bringing customers back).
 
AngMoh
Posts: 1049
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:58 am

Singapore just added 14-days isolation requirements to people coming back from UK, Switzerland, Japan and all of ASEAN.

One top of existing restrictions, there are only a few flights left. I expect USA next to be on the list as we see way too many imported case from US (small in absolute number but getting big in numbers relative to the number of pax flying in).
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8031
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:21 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Nickd92 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
That's if lenders are willing to lend money in the current environment. A lot of investors and banks are spooked pretty badly right now.

If lenders aren't willing to lend money, or are only willing to do it with subprime rates, it will hasten the demise of airlines that don't have a strong fiscal cushion to fall back on.


Then what happens when they receive all them assets that they cannot shift unlike in Normal circumstances? It's in the best interests of the banks to keep theses businesses going. Otherwise they'll be no one with any Capital out there to start up once we are back to Normal.

No, what will happen is that banks will then quickly move to secure the collateral and liquidate the assets ASAP, even if they take a bit of a loss in an attempt to recover their money, especially if they start feeling pressure as depositors start withdrawing their money.


I don't know what legal jurisdiction you're speaking to, ThePointBlank, but lenders can't repossess assets unless borrowers are in default, and in the U.S. once a borrower declares Chapter 11 the company management team under supervision of bankruptcy courts, not the lenders, have control of the assets.

Delta, for one, is borrowing rather cheaply right now against fairly newly delivered aircraft. It's $1 Billion at 2.0-2.5%. Aircraft types and quantity emphasis mine.

The sum of purchase prices of those aircraft was much, much more than $1 Billion, though.

On March 12, 2020, Delta Air Lines, Inc. (“Delta”) and U.S. Bank Trust National Association, as subordination agent (the “Subordination Agent”)
and each pass through trustee (the “Trustee”) under two pass through trusts newly formed by Delta, entered into 33 separate Participation Agreements, dated
as of March 12, 2020 (each, a “Participation Agreement” and, collectively, the “Participation Agreements”). The Participation Agreements provide for the
issuance by Delta of equipment notes (the “Equipment Notes”) in the aggregate principal amount of $1,000,000,000 secured by (i) five Airbus A321-211
aircraft, (ii) 22 Boeing 737-932ER aircraft, and (iii) six Airbus A330-302 aircraft, delivered new to Delta from August 2014 through April 2017
(each such
aircraft, an “Aircraft” and, collectively, the “Aircraft”), and which are substantively identical with respect to each model of Aircraft. The Equipment Notes
were issued under separate Indenture and Security Agreements (each, an “Indenture” and, collectively, the “Indentures”) entered into by Delta and U.S.
Bank Trust National Association, as loan trustee (the “Loan Trustee”), on March 12, 2020, with respect to each Aircraft.

The Equipment Notes were issued in two series: Series AA, bearing interest at the rate of 2.000% per annum, and Series A, bearing interest at the rate
of 2.500% per annum, in the aggregate principal amount equal to $795,894,000, in the case of Series AA, and $204,106,000, in the case of Series A. The
Equipment Notes were purchased by the Trustee using the proceeds from the sale of a total of $1,000,000,000 of Delta Air Lines, Inc.


Here's the SEC filing documenting the transactions dated 3/12/2020: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 0ce551.pdf
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:24 pm

Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at O’Hare and other U.S. airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... rt-delays/

Who thought it was a good idea, to make a new crowd event, mixing potentially corona virus bearers with others for hours. Than do a health check, that is very sensible in regards to the incubation period.

If this action was done to decrease the number of infected people coming into the USA, it will be a sure failure. Nothing promotes the spread of an infectious disease better, than keeping the potential bearers for hours in a crowd of uninfected people.

I understand crowds before immigration. Crowds before TSA. Crowds before customs. Crowds in airports, uncomfortable and time consuming but not deadly in normal times. But when you want to stop a pandemic, you should avoid keeping people in crowds.
 
heffron91
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:57 pm

AngMoh wrote:
Singapore just added 14-days isolation requirements to people coming back from UK, Switzerland, Japan and all of ASEAN.

One top of existing restrictions, there are only a few flights left. I expect USA next to be on the list as we see way too many imported case from US (small in absolute number but getting big in numbers relative to the number of pax flying in).


Does this apply to transit pax from let's say Indonesia to Europe via Changi? And do you know per when this measure becomes active?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:05 pm

AA is grounding most of widebody fleet. Only long haul routes will be:

DFW-LHR (1x daily)
DFW-NRT (3x weekly)
MIA-LHR (1x daily)

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... body-jets/
 
kimimm19
Posts: 428
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:22 pm

Surely, airlines right now, along with other businesses that are/will suffer are hoping for this infection curve of how the virus goes through a population to actually rise higher in order for it to be over more quickly. Of course this is what causes problems for the health care systems around the world.
 
KingB123
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:30 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:25 pm

Armodeen wrote:
It’s not business, it’s a once in a generation global catastrophe. Businesses can not mitigate for this. They will need propping up with public money to avoid untold damage to the very fabric of society for the next decade!

Do you want 50% unemployment? Mass defaulting on mortgages etc? The threat to society is not from the virus, but the devastating economic effects of the battle against it.

Get real, the governments have to do whatever it takes to protect industry.

KingB123 wrote:
eidvm wrote:


And if all airlines crash? If there are none left? How many other businesses will collapse? Entire tourist industries, many other businesses that rely on connections off the island you live on?

Airlines are not only businesses on their own but enablers of many other businesses around the country, similar to the bank bailouts back in 2008/09, sometimes some businesses are too big to fail, write off the shareholders, the bondholders and the unsecured creditors, but the core activity of the businesses must be protected to support the wider economy, the investment is not just in the company itself but all the hotels, restaurants, cafes, activity centers, cultural centers etc that rely on visitors from abroad.


Thats business, the same can be said about all these other airlines that have collapsed! Why hasn't anyone came and stepped in for those airlines that fell under. Its like a rule for some and then another kind of rule for others. Treat them all the same.



All these years we’ve had unemployment from the airline industry after airlines going bust with there already being a down turn in the economy in 2008! Remember that crash??? The government never helped out these airlines then and there was mass unemployment as employees were let go? What about them. Its complete profit over employees in this industry which no one seems to care about . So about time you got real and asked some airline employees who lost their jobs and ask them how it was.
King B
 
tphuang
Posts: 5190
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Nickd92 wrote:

Then what happens when they receive all them assets that they cannot shift unlike in Normal circumstances? It's in the best interests of the banks to keep theses businesses going. Otherwise they'll be no one with any Capital out there to start up once we are back to Normal.

No, what will happen is that banks will then quickly move to secure the collateral and liquidate the assets ASAP, even if they take a bit of a loss in an attempt to recover their money, especially if they start feeling pressure as depositors start withdrawing their money.


I don't know what legal jurisdiction you're speaking to, ThePointBlank, but lenders can't repossess assets unless borrowers are in default, and in the U.S. once a borrower declares Chapter 11 the company management team under supervision of bankruptcy courts, not the lenders, have control of the assets.

Delta, for one, is borrowing rather cheaply right now against fairly newly delivered aircraft. It's $1 Billion at 2.0-2.5%. Aircraft types and quantity emphasis mine.

The sum of purchase prices of those aircraft was much, much more than $1 Billion, though.

On March 12, 2020, Delta Air Lines, Inc. (“Delta”) and U.S. Bank Trust National Association, as subordination agent (the “Subordination Agent”)
and each pass through trustee (the “Trustee”) under two pass through trusts newly formed by Delta, entered into 33 separate Participation Agreements, dated
as of March 12, 2020 (each, a “Participation Agreement” and, collectively, the “Participation Agreements”). The Participation Agreements provide for the
issuance by Delta of equipment notes (the “Equipment Notes”) in the aggregate principal amount of $1,000,000,000 secured by (i) five Airbus A321-211
aircraft, (ii) 22 Boeing 737-932ER aircraft, and (iii) six Airbus A330-302 aircraft, delivered new to Delta from August 2014 through April 2017
(each such
aircraft, an “Aircraft” and, collectively, the “Aircraft”), and which are substantively identical with respect to each model of Aircraft. The Equipment Notes
were issued under separate Indenture and Security Agreements (each, an “Indenture” and, collectively, the “Indentures”) entered into by Delta and U.S.
Bank Trust National Association, as loan trustee (the “Loan Trustee”), on March 12, 2020, with respect to each Aircraft.

The Equipment Notes were issued in two series: Series AA, bearing interest at the rate of 2.000% per annum, and Series A, bearing interest at the rate
of 2.500% per annum, in the aggregate principal amount equal to $795,894,000, in the case of Series AA, and $204,106,000, in the case of Series A. The
Equipment Notes were purchased by the Trustee using the proceeds from the sale of a total of $1,000,000,000 of Delta Air Lines, Inc.


Here's the SEC filing documenting the transactions dated 3/12/2020: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 0ce551.pdf


Being able to borrow cheaply is certainly an advantage DL or any carrier with good credit have over AA/UA right now.

The unencumbered asset value to me doesn't mean much. When everyone is trying to sell aircraft to lessors to raise cash, those unencumbered assets will be raising a lot less money than the paper value that accounting team is assigning on them.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:36 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Nickd92 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
That's if lenders are willing to lend money in the current environment. A lot of investors and banks are spooked pretty badly right now.

If lenders aren't willing to lend money, or are only willing to do it with subprime rates, it will hasten the demise of airlines that don't have a strong fiscal cushion to fall back on.


Then what happens when they receive all them assets that they cannot shift unlike in Normal circumstances? It's in the best interests of the banks to keep theses businesses going. Otherwise they'll be no one with any Capital out there to start up once we are back to Normal.

No, what will happen is that banks will then quickly move to secure the collateral and liquidate the assets ASAP, even if they take a bit of a loss in an attempt to recover their money, especially if they start feeling pressure as depositors start withdrawing their money.

It also affects future loans and re-negotiations for existing loans as well; banks will be far less willing to lend money, and for existing lenders who need to renew their loans, they might find it significantly more difficult to refinance the loans as a result, with higher interest rates and collateral requirements as a result.

Banks may also experience their own liquidity crisis as well if they have too many loans that they suddenly struggle to collect on, and depositors suddenly move to pull their money out of the bank, causing a bank run.


Nickd92 has it right imo, it's impossible for lenders to liquidate assets like aircraft by "taking a bit of a loss" when nobody is in the market for any aircraft, so perhaps you would only find a taker for a 30 million A320 if you go down to 3-5 millions or wait a year or two.
So it would make more sense for lenders to tough it out and throw back current loan repayments to the end of the repayment period instead of liquidating assets through the courts.
Similarily, lessors would probably suspend lease payments in exchange for extension of the lease period, kind of like pushing the pause button. The aircraft will be stored and won't build hours/cycles, interest rates will be low, so no harm done, they'll just have to bridge a period without profits.

The exceptions will be airlines that will become insolvent and without prospects of restarting. In those cases, it makes more sense to impound the aircraft and let them sit in the lessor's lot until they can remarket them at decent rates.
However, this will be less practical for debt holders, as they will be at the mercy of bankruptcy courts regarding the timing, marketing methods of the assets, costs, the aircraft's conditions will deteriorate through the lengthy process, etc...

Airlines won't be the only ones going through this process and bankruptcy courts will take many years to handle liquidations too.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
AngMoh
Posts: 1049
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:37 pm

heffron91 wrote:
AngMoh wrote:
Singapore just added 14-days isolation requirements to people coming back from UK, Switzerland, Japan and all of ASEAN.

One top of existing restrictions, there are only a few flights left. I expect USA next to be on the list as we see way too many imported case from US (small in absolute number but getting big in numbers relative to the number of pax flying in).


Does this apply to transit pax from let's say Indonesia to Europe via Changi? And do you know per when this measure becomes active?


It does not apply to transit, only entry into Singapore. Active from Monday 16 Mar 23:59.

https://www.moh.gov.sg/news-highlights/ ... d-19-cases
Last edited by AngMoh on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:37 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at O’Hare and other U.S. airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... rt-delays/

Who thought it was a good idea, to make a new crowd event, mixing potentially corona virus bearers with others for hours. Than do a health check, that is very sensible in regards to the incubation period.

If this action was done to decrease the number of infected people coming into the USA, it will be a sure failure. Nothing promotes the spread of an infectious disease better, than keeping the potential bearers for hours in a crowd of uninfected people.

I understand crowds before immigration. Crowds before TSA. Crowds before customs. Crowds in airports, uncomfortable and time consuming but not deadly in normal times. But when you want to stop a pandemic, you should avoid keeping people in crowds.


Totally agree with you, but the crowds in these instances are basically completely unavoidable considering the circumstances. It was bound to happen. CBP is obviously overwhelmed at the checkpoint, but imo what the airport authority should do is manage the line. They need to spread people out throughout the entire damn terminal. And then call passengers from individual flights through the overhead speakers to proceed to security at this time. The crowds are unavoidable, but the way it is managed was.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:43 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL last remaining routes to AMS per Monday, everything else cancelled
DL72/74 ATL
DL132/134 DTW

Are you certain (or have a source)? DL75, DL85 and DL135 (westbound) and DL72, DL82 and DL134 (eastbound) remain bookable on Delta metal throughout march. All other TATL routes to the EU are off the system already.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:54 pm

mxaxai wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
DL last remaining routes to AMS per Monday, everything else cancelled
DL72/74 ATL
DL132/134 DTW

Are you certain (or have a source)? DL75, DL85 and DL135 (westbound) and DL72, DL82 and DL134 (eastbound) remain bookable on Delta metal throughout march. All other TATL routes to the EU are off the system already.


From what I can gather at https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-15mar20/

I also work at a ground handler at AMS servicing all DL flights. My work will practically dry up the coming week
Last edited by FlyingHonu001 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:56 pm

Completely avoidable. There was no reason why this needed to be done in the airport. Should have been one plane at a time to an empty hangar, process the passengers, clean, next. Just one example of how this could have been avoided.

ual763 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at O’Hare and other U.S. airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... rt-delays/

Who thought it was a good idea, to make a new crowd event, mixing potentially corona virus bearers with others for hours. Than do a health check, that is very sensible in regards to the incubation period.

If this action was done to decrease the number of infected people coming into the USA, it will be a sure failure. Nothing promotes the spread of an infectious disease better, than keeping the potential bearers for hours in a crowd of uninfected people.

I understand crowds before immigration. Crowds before TSA. Crowds before customs. Crowds in airports, uncomfortable and time consuming but not deadly in normal times. But when you want to stop a pandemic, you should avoid keeping people in crowds.


Totally agree with you, but the crowds in these instances are basically completely unavoidable considering the circumstances. It was bound to happen. CBP is obviously overwhelmed at the checkpoint, but imo what the airport authority should do is manage the line. They need to spread people out throughout the entire damn terminal. And then call passengers from individual flights through the overhead speakers to proceed to security at this time. The crowds are unavoidable, but the way it is managed was.
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:59 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
Completely avoidable. There was no reason why this needed to be done in the airport. Should have been one plane at a time to an empty hangar, process the passengers, clean, next. Just one example of how this could have been avoided.

ual763 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at O’Hare and other U.S. airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... rt-delays/

Who thought it was a good idea, to make a new crowd event, mixing potentially corona virus bearers with others for hours. Than do a health check, that is very sensible in regards to the incubation period.

If this action was done to decrease the number of infected people coming into the USA, it will be a sure failure. Nothing promotes the spread of an infectious disease better, than keeping the potential bearers for hours in a crowd of uninfected people.

I understand crowds before immigration. Crowds before TSA. Crowds before customs. Crowds in airports, uncomfortable and time consuming but not deadly in normal times. But when you want to stop a pandemic, you should avoid keeping people in crowds.


Totally agree with you, but the crowds in these instances are basically completely unavoidable considering the circumstances. It was bound to happen. CBP is obviously overwhelmed at the checkpoint, but imo what the airport authority should do is manage the line. They need to spread people out throughout the entire damn terminal. And then call passengers from individual flights through the overhead speakers to proceed to security at this time. The crowds are unavoidable, but the way it is managed was.


There are no empty hangars at ORD.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:15 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
Completely avoidable. There was no reason why this needed to be done in the airport. Should have been one plane at a time to an empty hangar, process the passengers, clean, next. Just one example of how this could have been avoided.

ual763 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Coronavirus screening causes massive bottlenecks at O’Hare and other U.S. airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transpor ... rt-delays/

Who thought it was a good idea, to make a new crowd event, mixing potentially corona virus bearers with others for hours. Than do a health check, that is very sensible in regards to the incubation period.

If this action was done to decrease the number of infected people coming into the USA, it will be a sure failure. Nothing promotes the spread of an infectious disease better, than keeping the potential bearers for hours in a crowd of uninfected people.

I understand crowds before immigration. Crowds before TSA. Crowds before customs. Crowds in airports, uncomfortable and time consuming but not deadly in normal times. But when you want to stop a pandemic, you should avoid keeping people in crowds.


Totally agree with you, but the crowds in these instances are basically completely unavoidable considering the circumstances. It was bound to happen. CBP is obviously overwhelmed at the checkpoint, but imo what the airport authority should do is manage the line. They need to spread people out throughout the entire damn terminal. And then call passengers from individual flights through the overhead speakers to proceed to security at this time. The crowds are unavoidable, but the way it is managed was.


Given the short notice, I don't see how airports could have prepared for this any better. You just don't turn a normal customs facility into a testing + immigration facility. It is a failure of the federal government to take this situation seriously then implementing a knee jerk reaction in a matter of hours.
 
ck8msp
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:08 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:20 pm

ZazuPIT wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
Completely avoidable. There was no reason why this needed to be done in the airport. Should have been one plane at a time to an empty hangar, process the passengers, clean, next. Just one example of how this could have been avoided.

ual763 wrote:

Totally agree with you, but the crowds in these instances are basically completely unavoidable considering the circumstances. It was bound to happen. CBP is obviously overwhelmed at the checkpoint, but imo what the airport authority should do is manage the line. They need to spread people out throughout the entire damn terminal. And then call passengers from individual flights through the overhead speakers to proceed to security at this time. The crowds are unavoidable, but the way it is managed was.


Given the short notice, I don't see how airports could have prepared for this any better. You just don't turn a normal customs facility into a testing + immigration facility. It is a failure of the federal government to take this situation seriously then implementing a knee jerk reaction in a matter of hours.

Perhaps if we are going to play the blame game, maybe we can put some on those passengers too who despite warnings for the last month still took that vacation or cheap trip? How about airlines running some bargain international fares to lure passengers to fill empty planes? I think when it is said and done the outbreaks and results are going to be pretty uniform in the western world. Even Germany who had early testing has said it will hit half their population.

This shows the shortcoming and failures of government in general. Lets learn from this and change our culture. Just like after 9/11, the world will never be the same.
 
trex8
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:38 pm

Not sure if this should be on the CX thread r here but CX increasing flights again, silver lining

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... ed269620c7
After almost two months of responding to the coronavirus outbreak by cutting flights and taking out 65% of capacity, Cathay Pacific is rushing to add capacity back.

Hong Kong’s largest airline will add three flights to London, one each March 17-19, and is deciding how to increase capacity to the United States, either through additional flights or using larger aircraft.

“Many Hong Kong students and citizens are eager to come home as soon as possible,” Cathay said in a statement.
 
User avatar
JannEejit
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:42 pm

KingB123 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Goodbye wrote:

And the thousands of people employed by those airlines...?


Some people do forget that the UK taxpayer also funds the welfare system, which thousands of ordinary airline staff may find themselves having to rely on.

If the banking industry can be bailed out with what are effectively loans, then so can the airline industry, as long as the money comes back to the taxpayer. Ordinarily I'd agree with the notion of letting ailing businesses fail, but these are extraordinary circumstances.

Unfortunately it's not only airlines that are going to need financial support in the coming weeks though. And yes I do find it slightly obscene the complete silence coming from a certain billionaire associated with the Virgin branding.


We'd be fools to think that the money we lend to these airlines would come back to the tax payer, what has RBS given back to the tax payers? Those managed to line their pockets got away and here we are today!


£15 billion of RBS money is due back into the treasury by 2023, in the form of a government share holding sell off. Previous share stock sales have recouped some (yes I know not all) of the monies issued in the bail out.

What you don't do is give taxpayer funds away, without some sort of settlement plan. And "lending" terms would have to come with cast iron guarantees. I agree that some of these airlines ought to be capable of looking after themselves. Ultimately it is the shareholder's interests at heart whilst the fate of the unemployed will be foisted onto the state system anyway. Still no comment from the bearded one...
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24303
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:54 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Remember recently certain airline saying how unfair it would be to bail out Flybe, and now.......

Yep, that comment didn't age well at all.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:55 pm

It's wonderful how at Chicago they're herding everyone together. You wouldn't want to miss an opportunity to turn 1 case into 10,000 and then spread that mess all over the country.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: JetBlue bans passenger who notified crew after landing that he'd tested positive for coronavirus

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:02 pm

There is also a Chinese lady from MA confirmed case, went to LA and took Air China flight back to Beijing with her husband and children. The flight was CA988 on 12th March.

Chinese media Beijing Daily reported the case. But no information on the family's domestic flights information.

The news source in Chinese can be found:
http://news.carnoc.com/list/526/526857.html

Nevertheless, another flight from FRA to PVG on Air China had 4 possible cases. Now Air China will check passenger temperatures before boarding and will deny anyone has a fever.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3962
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: JetBlue bans passenger who notified crew after landing that he'd tested positive for coronavirus

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:10 pm

The passenger should be put on the no fly list and banned from any form of public transport.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:14 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
This raises an interesting point - were airlines prepared for this?


You have to think they run computer scenarios. For instance United calls LAX a "hub", but they have roughly 50% of the domestic traffic as SFO.

While London is the busiest international market for LAX, United competes with British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Norwegian, American Airlines, and Air New Zealand until this fall. London is also the busiest international market for SFO but United competes with British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, Norwegian.

With the international routes collapsing, does United pull back to defend its routes from SFO where it has a stronger position?

United's year-round international destinations from LAX
London–Heathrow
Sydney
Melbourne
Tokyo–Haneda
Tokyo–Narita 
Shanghai–Pudong 
Cancún

Same question with Sydney where United is in a five way competition from LAX. From SFO it is in a two way competition with Qantas. Does it pull back from LAX and put all its transfer passengers through SFO?
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5361
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: JetBlue bans passenger who notified crew after landing that he'd tested positive for coronavirus

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:17 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Now Air China will check passenger temperatures before boarding and will deny anyone has a fever.


I'm surprised they didn't do that before. Every major airport in the World pretty much checks every passenger for temperature these days.

Temperature checks are unfortunately not enough to catch everyone as fevers tend to come and go.

Whoever devises an instant COVID-19 test will hold the key to unlocking the planet... :angel:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue bans passenger who notified crew after landing that he'd tested positive for coronavirus

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:21 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Whoever devises an instant COVID-19 test will hold the key to unlocking the planet... :angel:


Supposedly we have a 4-hour test. Not sure how prevalent this test will be offered though
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1872
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:25 pm

Lufthansa is scheduling up to 15 'rescue' flights to the carribean, the canary islands, Morocco and possibly other tourist hotspots. This is to repatriate tourists who got stuck there due to the recent flight cancellations. Up to 4000 tourists are expected by Wednesday, mostly Germans but also other nationalities.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: UK aviation needs £7.5 billion lifeline

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:29 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
NOTHING, really? We would not be in this mess were it not for all those profitable airlines spreading the virus all over the globe. You should feel more sorry for all those affected industries that really had nothing to do with this outbreak.


You are aware that a century ago and dozens of times before that, a pandemic spread around the globe just fine without Commercial jets, Every intelligent well read person on Earth knew this was going to happen sooner or later.


The argument of the original poster was that airlines are more deserving of a bailout from the government than the banks were in 2008 because the crisis they face is none of their doing. Reality is that they are the ones that have helped and are still helping to spread the virus around the globe.
 
Halophila
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:44 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Virgin Australia have released a list of flights with confirmed Covid-19 cases. See a trend?
https://www.virginaustralia.com/au/en/b ... el-alerts/
Several flights from the US to Australia.
Australia is now mandating a 14-day self-quarantine, but it’s likely too late since there are over 250 cases and the number is surging.
Flown on A36 310 319 320 321 332 333 343 388 350 707 717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 743 744 74SP 757 753 762 763 772 773 77W 787 D10 DC9 M11 M80 M87 CRJ CR7 CR9 CR1000 120 135 145 175 190 146 F28 F50 F70 F100 Tristar
 
User avatar
rosecityspotter
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:42 pm

So sad seeing the impact on travel. I flew Alaska PDX-SNA on Friday morning. The loads are usually pretty dense for Alaska's flights from Portland to California, I would presume at least 85% full all the time based on what I've seen. There was no more than fifty people on the flight. American seems to be doing worse, as my Uber driver told me that he picked up a passenger who was on American flight from Dallas to Orange County the day before and there were a total of THREE passengers on the flight. Such a sad state of affairs.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:44 pm

Do we know which AA flight from MIA-LHR is still going to be running? AA56 or AA38?
@DadCelo
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:02 pm

So Saint Martin starts a USA/EU/UK travel ban starting Tuesday. My parents are there now and AA canceled their return flight. But AA rebooked them on Delta to JFK. I'm trying to figure out how Delta will be able to fly in for that return trip.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4943
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:09 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
So Saint Martin starts a USA/EU/UK travel ban starting Tuesday. My parents are there now and AA canceled their return flight. But AA rebooked them on Delta to JFK. I'm trying to figure out how Delta will be able to fly in for that return trip.

If I were them I’d leave before Tuesday
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1379
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:12 pm

32andBelow wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
So Saint Martin starts a USA/EU/UK travel ban starting Tuesday. My parents are there now and AA canceled their return flight. But AA rebooked them on Delta to JFK. I'm trying to figure out how Delta will be able to fly in for that return trip.

If I were them I’d leave before Tuesday


I suggested that too. But, they worked hard in life to be able to enjoy retirement. And they're enjoying retirement. I mean, nothing they have to rush back to, so I guess they think if they get stranded, no harm done.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4943
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:19 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
So Saint Martin starts a USA/EU/UK travel ban starting Tuesday. My parents are there now and AA canceled their return flight. But AA rebooked them on Delta to JFK. I'm trying to figure out how Delta will be able to fly in for that return trip.

If I were them I’d leave before Tuesday


I suggested that too. But, they worked hard in life to be able to enjoy retirement. And they're enjoying retirement. I mean, nothing they have to rush back to, so I guess they think if they get stranded, no harm done.

They might be looking for a boat in a month if they don’t leave.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4787
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:24 pm

Besides additional UK services posted above, CX providing additional frequency to JFK and upgauging capacity on LAX, SEA and SFO routes next week.

https://onemileatatime.com/cathay-pacif ... s-flights/
mercure f-wtcc

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