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Antaras
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:41 pm

anstar wrote:
Clackers wrote:
SOUTH EAST ASIAN airlines in real trouble? MH, TG, and maybe PH.

I think SQ, VN and Garuda will survive this. In fact, Indonesian aviation seems relatively unhit from COVID19

I think alot of asian lcc's could be added to thatl ist like bamboo, tiger taiwan, starlux, tiger australia etc etc


Bamboo and Starlux are NOT LCCs.
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747megatop
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:43 pm

We are in unprecedented times; this being bigger than 9/11 and great recession of 2008 combined. I foresee at least the Boeing Commercial Airlines division filing for bankruptcy protection to weather the crisis (now, i don't know if just one division of a company like Boeing Commercial Airplanes Group can file for bankruptcy but from what i was told when i worked back then in the early 2000s BCAG or Boeing Commercial Airplanes Group was a separate company, a legal entity itelf within the larger umbrella of Boeing the company ; they [BCAG]] won't go under though since the US govt considers it too important to fail.
We may see a few airlines possibly go under (i am definitely not wishing for it) across the world.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:44 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I wonder how deliveries are at Airbus and Boeing. Anybody have news?

I think that delivery processes would be normal. However, I guess that most newbie would go straight into storage after being delivered.
For example, VN's newest 78X is spotted with engines covered after its delivery 5 days ago.
Most carrier may choose to defer the delivery, too.
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alasizon
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:44 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
I wonder how deliveries are at Airbus and Boeing. Anybody have news?


Deliveries proceed pretty much based on financing right now so any frames that are properly financed are delivered; even if delivery means a signature followed by a ferry for storage.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:55 pm

Cargo/freighter operators are now given priority for slots at AMS following the suspensions of pax airlines

Source: https://slotcoordination.nl/in-order-to ... -2-at-ams/
 
GE90welder
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:57 pm

We now have airline credit, not a refund, for cancelling our flight/vacation to Orlando. We chose to not go because we might be carriers, or get it on the way to my elderly inlaws...

I'm in the industry, too, but at the raw metal casting stage. We make parts for EVERYONE. If you guys aren't flying, your bosses aren't buying new parts, and my bosses don't need to make new parts, and, we're all in this together.

DK
 
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keesje
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:04 pm

HKG Airport..
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source: https://media-exp1.licdn.com/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:05 pm

Not good news, to say the least

"The $150 billion to $200 billion IATA estimate includes indirect support such as loan guarantees"

"IATA chief economist Brian Pearce also said cash was running out for many airlines and that 75% of them had cash to cover less than three months of unavoidable fixed costs"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... 14267?il=0
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744SPX
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:48 pm

If Boeing receives bailout money it should be contingent on getting rid of the Max permanently and subbing some NG's until an NSA is ready which should be the main priority going forward.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:55 pm

Clackers wrote:
Singapore Airlines will never go bust. They were one of the more responsible airlines in the beginning of this fracas and now look at them - in a strong position to make a hostile takeover of all their ASEAN rivals excluding Garuda.
Big things ahead for the Singapore Girl.


It is not because it is well run or responsible. It is because Singapore's sovereign fund will backstop any amount of loss with a smile. Just like EK and QR.

Other governments may not have resources to save or may have better priorities than shelling out money to save an airline.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:24 pm

The USA will find some way to prop up its airlines as their collapse will make it more difficult for economic recovery. There is also the need to have planes available and airlines around for potential military deployments and mail. What is going on is the equivalent of War. Recall during WWII, airlines around the world were either nationalized or their aircraft and staff nationalized over by their respective home countries for military needs.

I also think airlines and their national authorities should in the earliest stages of return of passenger flights and as part of any bailout have important conditions. Regulate fares for several months, no '$99 r/t' LGA-MIA fares, but not $999 coach fares to discourage unnecessary travel. Suspend many of the added fees like for after the 1st Checked bag that higher base fares would cover as in the 'old' days. Assure minimum number of flights to smaller markets. Executive pay and compensation cut to not more than a few times more than their lowest tier full-time employees. Governments get stock (ie; like the USA and Canada did with GM & Chrysler in the 2008 crash) they can sell back to cover the loans.
 
Clackers
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:36 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Clackers wrote:
Singapore Airlines will never go bust. They were one of the more responsible airlines in the beginning of this fracas and now look at them - in a strong position to make a hostile takeover of all their ASEAN rivals excluding Garuda.
Big things ahead for the Singapore Girl.


It is not because it is well run or responsible. It is because Singapore's sovereign fund will backstop any amount of loss with a smile. Just like EK and QR.

Other governments may not have resources to save or may have better priorities than shelling out money to save an airline.


Maybe, but business is business.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:40 pm

According to CNBC, I see the Unions are trying to put some common sense restrictions on what the airlines do with any bailout monies (e.g. no more stock options, buy backs and crazy salaries). I haven't quite figured out why cargo airlines need any money though. They should be able to weather this with just a few quarters of bad earnings. Heck Amazon is shipping like crazy. Am I missing something?
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    frmrCapCadet
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:51 pm

    I do think any US airline getting grants or low interest loans should be inserting into its corporation statement acknowledgment that they have a responsibility to stake holders, including workers, suppliers, state and local governments, customers etc. This does not need to be specific, just a repudiation that their only responsibility is to shareholders. Boeing might further need to be asked to define that they are an engineering and plane making company. Airlines that they fly passengers and cargo. The practical effect of this is in negotiations and courts, not a prescribed obligation, but an obligation none the less.
    Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
     
    747megatop
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:54 pm

    744SPX wrote:
    If Boeing receives bailout money it should be contingent on getting rid of the Max permanently and subbing some NG's until an NSA is ready which should be the main priority going forward.

    Getting rid of MAX should be up to Boeing's board and market forces. The only contingencies for a bailout should be that

    - Boeing CEO, Board members and senior management should receive total compensation (stock, base salary etc) NOT MORE than the avg rank and file employees. (how that is determined and what that magic figure is needs to be worked out).
    - Moratorium on firings for at least 12 months (by then the vaccine will be out and economy hopefully on the path to recovery). If the companies (read - CEO & Board) are being bailed out by the tax payers then who is going to bail out the tax payers? Let the companies figure out how to defer/reduce salaries/go on leave without pay in rotations.

    The Boeing Company (and so many other companies) are the great companies that they are because of very smart, intelligent, hard working & law abiding individuals; we don't want them to be unemployed and worsening the economic situation. The Blankfein's, the Cassano's, the Pandit's, the Thain's, the Fuld's, the Nardelli's, the Buffet's etc. etc. will just be fine through multiple recessions, depressions and bailouts. And no, this is not about socialism vs captialism etc.; it's about being in it together in a crisis and the rank & file who have busted their behind, being protected.

    https://www.investopedia.com/investing/ ... -bailouts/
     
    Turnhouse1
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:59 pm

    davidjohnson6 wrote:
    UK Govt advising against all non essential travel abroad for next 30 days. This will void any travel insurance bought by UK residents. Guess it's only a matter of time until scheduled flights in UK (almost) stop


    It's actually helpful as it means insurance now covers not flying. Until that announcement you weren't getting your money back so people were pressured to fly or lose the cost of their tickets. Frankly, at the moment, stopping all flights seems reasonable.
     
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    par13del
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:05 pm

    bennett123 wrote:
    Given that in many places they will face 14 days quarantine on arrival, what would be the point?.

    Save on hotel accommodations, food and transportation?
    May only get to see the inside of a box but at least you can brag that you did visit country X for 14 days, which is much longer than normal.
    In every dark cloud there is a silver lining.
     
    kd9gy
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:05 pm

    Just a quick seat count on today's UAL #219 - ORD to HNL. 81 in coach on the 777 (out of 336 seats). Business was full (no doubt mostly upgrades). Hope the plane had a lot of cargo going to the islands!
     
    jetmatt777
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:16 pm

    The traffic coming back from Hawaii is heavy, naturally tourists are ending their vacations and getting back to the mainland.

    HNL and OGG to DEN were nearly full this morning with well over 350 pax each.
     
    jayunited
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:40 pm

    fortunerunnner wrote:
    Guys, whats the deal with UA104 on March 16 2020. It left SFO and went all the way upto Canadian Border which is typical route for a flight to DEL but then appears to be redirected to IAH instead back to SFO. Any inputs on this mystery.

    https://www.flightradar24.com/UAL104/24354677


    This diversion had nothing to do with Coronavirus not sure why it has been brought up in this thread.

    UA104-16 had a left engine PSROV light aluminate in route which prohibits operations into icing conditions. Do to forecasted icing at SFO, DEN, EWR, ORD and IAD the only diversion airport available was IAH.
     
    Waterbomber2
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:52 pm

    frmrCapCadet wrote:
    I do think any US airline getting grants or low interest loans should be inserting into its corporation statement acknowledgment that they have a responsibility to stake holders, including workers, suppliers, state and local governments, customers etc. This does not need to be specific, just a repudiation that their only responsibility is to shareholders. Boeing might further need to be asked to define that they are an engineering and plane making company. Airlines that they fly passengers and cargo. The practical effect of this is in negotiations and courts, not a prescribed obligation, but an obligation none the less.


    I don't think that this is enough.

    We have seen cocky airlines complaining about subsidies to competing airlines, while they didn't save up anything themselves.
    So now they should be given the opportunity to prove that they are as tough as they pretend to be and show us how it's done. Issue bonds, get access to short-term revolving loans, whatever.
    Grants and low interest loans can come once they file for bankruptcy protection and should be provided against the issuance of new preferred shares, share options or warrants.

    I can agree to a tax cut equivalent to a fraction of taxes and social contributions paid in the past 5 years, based on the give and take principle. In good times you give by paying taxes, in bad times you take some of that back.
    Tax cuts should not be allowed to exceed taxes paid.

    In the future, airlines should be imposed that they can prove liquidity of X months worth of revenue, the same way banks faced stress tests in the wake of the GFC. This rule already exists in some countries but it's still too relaxed.
    Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
     
    T4thH
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:56 pm

    Just announced in TV, EU will close the borders to EU now.
    Too early for source.
     
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    scbriml
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:00 pm

    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    We have seen cocky airlines complaining about subsidies to competing airlines, while they didn't save up anything themselves.
    So now they should be given the opportunity to prove that they are as tough as they pretend to be and show us how it's done.
    Grants and low interest loans can come once they file for bankruptcy protection.


    So you want them to go Chapter 11 before helping them? That just means their creditors, lessors and financers (amongst others) get screwed over.

    What are you expecting businesses to save? Enough money to cover surviving while their whole business is unable to function for months on end with zero income?
    Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
    There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
     
    Waterbomber2
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:19 pm

    scbriml wrote:
    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    We have seen cocky airlines complaining about subsidies to competing airlines, while they didn't save up anything themselves.
    So now they should be given the opportunity to prove that they are as tough as they pretend to be and show us how it's done.
    Grants and low interest loans can come once they file for bankruptcy protection.


    So you want them to go Chapter 11 before helping them? That just means their creditors, lessors and financers (amongst others) get screwed over.

    What are you expecting businesses to save? Enough money to cover surviving while their whole business is unable to function for months on end with zero income?


    Absolutely yes.
    When you apply for a loan, you are also expected to prove that you can go for a period without income, and/or you will have to take insurance covering income loss.
    There shouldn't be a difference whether we're talking about a household that owns a house or an airline that owns 1000 aircraft.

    It is absurd to bail out airlines that have posted record profits for the past fiscal year and distributed it all instead of keeping a reserve for contingencies.
    So first, airlines should be given the opportunity to fix this by themselves, and only step in when they push the panic button. The good housefather rule applies to all.

    Let's also not forget that their earnings are not the only thing that airlines have distributed. In fact, had airlines worldwide taken their responsibility and coordinated a global grounding 2 months ago, they wouldn't have distributed the virus either and would have gone back to business as usual by now.
    I don't think that they should be rewarded for putting billions of people at risk, no way jose. Most of us now worldwide face income loss to some extent and our lives are put upside down with limitations to our liberties because of airlines' irresponsible behavior.
    Airlines really behaved irresponsibly before and during this crisis, let that be clear.

    We need to save the jobs across all industries, but airlines should be shown that irresponsible behavior has consequences.
    Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
     
    ordbosewr
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:23 pm

    T4thH wrote:
    Just announced in TV, EU will close the borders to EU now.
    Too early for source.


    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/coronav ... rders.html
     
    Miamiairport
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:24 pm

    If the airlines want a bailout they should agree to stop selling their core product for under cost. The ONLY way we will ever get back to any level of customer service for the non upper elite flyer is to have sane pricing. If your regional grocery store sold half of it's product under cost to drive traffic, provided horrible service with dirty stores would you deem them available for a bailout?

    When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s the average American, including my upper middle income family usually drove. We rarely flew. Yet I don't remember my parents demanding fare so low they could fly on all vacations instead of driving.
     
    many321
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:24 pm

    Via Twitter, Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele has mentioned effective at midnight, SAL will shut down for 15 days. Will only accept cargo. Depending how the state of the pandemic is in, they'll assess if it's prudent to reopen.

    https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/ ... 22529?s=19
     
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    JannEejit
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:26 pm

    6 x British Airways A321 fleet, now arrived and stored at Glasgow (GLA) tonight. G-EUXC-G-H-K-L-M.

    Image
    Last edited by JannEejit on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    smartplane
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:27 pm

    Antaras wrote:
    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    I wonder how deliveries are at Airbus and Boeing. Anybody have news?

    I think that delivery processes would be normal. However, I guess that most newbie would go straight into storage after being delivered.
    For example, VN's newest 78X is spotted with engines covered after its delivery 5 days ago.
    Most carrier may choose to defer the delivery, too.

    The delivery process potentially involves up to 4 main parties - OEM, pre-shipment financier, post-shipment financier and customer (obviously a lot more than lead financiers).

    All customers, whether an airline or lessor, will have by now breached financial covenants, as will financiers predominantly exposed to commercial aviation, so delivery settlement is avoidable, subject to the goodwill of customers and / or financiers.

    For customers, failure to settle will usually trigger a covenant breach in itself. Supportive OEM's and financiers will accommodate by formalising a deferral, providing they have the financial capacity, as a customer breach can trigger downstream breaches. Non-supportive OEM's and financiers, or those lacking financial capacity, will trigger defaults, though the customer can delay by documenting defects.

    Any new aircraft recorded as delivered, are extremely unlikely to have been settled in full. The OEM will have received pre-shipment finance at every milestone, but like the MAX, these payments will be drying up. To regularise, all involved execute a deferred payment agreement, but have to be careful to ensure all are trading while solvent.
     
    ShinyAndChrome
    Posts: 280
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:29 pm

    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    scbriml wrote:
    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    We have seen cocky airlines complaining about subsidies to competing airlines, while they didn't save up anything themselves.
    So now they should be given the opportunity to prove that they are as tough as they pretend to be and show us how it's done.
    Grants and low interest loans can come once they file for bankruptcy protection.


    So you want them to go Chapter 11 before helping them? That just means their creditors, lessors and financers (amongst others) get screwed over.

    What are you expecting businesses to save? Enough money to cover surviving while their whole business is unable to function for months on end with zero income?


    Absolutely yes.
    When you apply for a loan, you are also expected to prove that you can go for a period without income, and/or you will have to take insurance covering income loss.
    There shouldn't be a difference whether we're talking about a household that owns a house or an airline that owns 1000 aircraft.

    It is absurd to bail out airlines that have posted record profits for the past fiscal year and distributed it all instead of keeping a reserve for contingencies.
    So first, airlines should be givent he opportunity to fix this by themselves, and only step in when they push the panic button.


    The mods deleted one of my replies to you earlier so I'll try to reiterate this a little less emphatically. Equating running a business and running a household betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of at least one of the two. If you want businesses to save like households, then Uncle Sam should tax accumulated earnings the same way he taxes our savings accounts. I'll send you the link in case you forgot.

    Let's also not forget that their earnings are not the only thing that airlines have distributed. In fact, had airlines worldwide taken their responsibility and coordinated a global grounding 2 months ago, they wouldn't have distributed the virus either and would have gone back to business as usual by now.
    I don't thnk that they should be rewarded for putting billions of people at risk, no way jose.


    First of all, airlines coordinating a global grounding without the directive or even blessing of any governments sounds more like collusion than anything else. Depending on where you are and what the contracts of carriage stipulate, shutting down without guidance from the state could very well lead to legal liabilities from passengers and suppliers complaining that the airlines are grounding flights without government orders.

    Honestly, I don't know what's more inexplicable: treating corporate finance like a subgenre of personal finance or expecting the airline industry to do the government's job in the midst of a public health crisis.
    Last edited by ShinyAndChrome on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
     
    Waterbomber2
    Posts: 1288
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:30 pm

    smartplane wrote:
    Antaras wrote:
    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    I wonder how deliveries are at Airbus and Boeing. Anybody have news?

    I think that delivery processes would be normal. However, I guess that most newbie would go straight into storage after being delivered.
    For example, VN's newest 78X is spotted with engines covered after its delivery 5 days ago.
    Most carrier may choose to defer the delivery, too.

    The delivery process potentially involves up to 4 main parties - OEM, pre-shipment financier, post-shipment financier and customer (obviously a lot more than lead financiers).

    All customers, whether an airline or lessor, will have by now breached financial covenants, as will financiers predominantly exposed to commercial aviation, so delivery settlement is avoidable, subject to the goodwill of customers and / or financiers.

    For customers, failure to settle will usually trigger a covenant breach in itself. Supportive OEM's and financiers will accommodate by formalising a deferral, providing they have the financial capacity, as a customer breach can trigger downstream breaches. Non-supportive OEM's and financiers, or those lacking financial capacity, will trigger defaults, though the customer can delay by documenting defects.

    Any new aircraft recorded as delivered, are extremely unlikely to have been settled in full. The OEM will have received pre-shipment finance at every milestone, but like the MAX, these payments will be drying up. To regularise, all involved execute a deferred payment agreement, but have to be careful to ensure all are trading while solvent.


    That makes sense.
    Oh man what a mess.
    It would almost make sense to retrain production people to deal with the financial side of this mess.
    Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    bennett123
    Posts: 9731
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:30 pm

    Do you mean the BA A321 are at GLA or PIK?.
     
    ordbosewr
    Posts: 612
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:31 pm

    scbriml wrote:
    Waterbomber2 wrote:
    We have seen cocky airlines complaining about subsidies to competing airlines, while they didn't save up anything themselves.
    So now they should be given the opportunity to prove that they are as tough as they pretend to be and show us how it's done.
    Grants and low interest loans can come once they file for bankruptcy protection.


    So you want them to go Chapter 11 before helping them? That just means their creditors, lessors and financers (amongst others) get screwed over.

    What are you expecting businesses to save? Enough money to cover surviving while their whole business is unable to function for months on end with zero income?


    I think this raises the social requirements that companies have.
    I think we should all resist jumping to any specific resolution. The problem needs to be worked through based on the situation we are in.

    There will be time in the future to address what we think is right or wrong for how companies in the future do when times are good. For example, many have panned the airlines for the share buy-backs that they did in the past few years to the tunes of billions of dollars.

    I think one of the discussions that need to happen is shareholders vs stakeholders needs to be a big part of the discussion.
    When you think in terms of stakeholders not solely shareholders is something that could change the outcomes we have.

    Net net, we need to address the situation we are in. Airlines will largely be shutting down for the next month and that is going to kill even healthy airlines.
     
    davidjohnson6
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:32 pm

    Miamiairport wrote:
    If the airlines want a bailout they should agree to stop selling their core product for under cost. The ONLY way we will ever get back to any level of customer service for the non upper elite flyer is to have sane pricing. If your regional grocery store sold half of it's product under cost to drive traffic, provided horrible service with dirty stores would you deem them available for a bailout?

    When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s the average American, including my upper middle income family usually drove. We rarely flew. Yet I don't remember my parents demanding fare so low they could fly on all vacations instead of driving.


    What about the passenger who doesn't care much about customer service, but really needs the airfare to be as cheap as possible ? If you thini a 'better quality' type of customer service should be available, then perhaps airlines should require those customers to pay a higher prìce
     
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    JannEejit
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    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:35 pm

    bennett123 wrote:
    Do you mean the BA A321 are at GLA or PIK?.


    GLA sorry (have updated original post) . BA have Airbus maintenance facilities there. PIK is playing host to Virgin Atlantic storage, with 3x A346 currently and more widebodies expected shortly.
    Last edited by JannEejit on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    badgervor
    Posts: 141
    Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:58 pm

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:43 pm

    kd9gy wrote:
    Just a quick seat count on today's UAL #219 - ORD to HNL. 81 in coach on the 777 (out of 336 seats). Business was full (no doubt mostly upgrades). Hope the plane had a lot of cargo going to the islands!


    UA 1040 737-900 EWR-AUA had total of 4, 1 in first, if the online seat map is accurate
     
    Brickell305
    Posts: 1019
    Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:44 pm

    davidjohnson6 wrote:
    Miamiairport wrote:
    If the airlines want a bailout they should agree to stop selling their core product for under cost. The ONLY way we will ever get back to any level of customer service for the non upper elite flyer is to have sane pricing. If your regional grocery store sold half of it's product under cost to drive traffic, provided horrible service with dirty stores would you deem them available for a bailout?

    When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s the average American, including my upper middle income family usually drove. We rarely flew. Yet I don't remember my parents demanding fare so low they could fly on all vacations instead of driving.

    What about the passenger who doesn't care much about customer service, but really needs the airfare to be as cheap as possible ? If you thini a 'better quality' type of customer service should be available, then perhaps airlines should require those customers to pay a higher prìce
    Isn’t that exactly what he’s calling for by saying to stop selling their core product below cost?
    Last edited by Brickell305 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    dmstorm22
    Posts: 613
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:48 pm

    badgervor wrote:
    kd9gy wrote:
    Just a quick seat count on today's UAL #219 - ORD to HNL. 81 in coach on the 777 (out of 336 seats). Business was full (no doubt mostly upgrades). Hope the plane had a lot of cargo going to the islands!


    UA 1040 737-900 EWR-AUA had total of 4, 1 in first, if the online seat map is accurate


    Have to imagine it brought/is bringing a lot more back returning home.
     
    User avatar
    aemoreira1981
    Posts: 3574
    Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:52 pm

    LY currently has four Dreamliners on the ground at JFK that all flew in this morning. Are they repatriation or carrying cargo? They came in as Flights 1, 3, 7, and 9. (Keep in mind that the B789 is their largest plane now.)
     
    usairways85
    Posts: 4157
    Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:56 pm

    dmstorm22 wrote:
    badgervor wrote:
    kd9gy wrote:
    Just a quick seat count on today's UAL #219 - ORD to HNL. 81 in coach on the 777 (out of 336 seats). Business was full (no doubt mostly upgrades). Hope the plane had a lot of cargo going to the islands!


    UA 1040 737-900 EWR-AUA had total of 4, 1 in first, if the online seat map is accurate


    Have to imagine it brought/is bringing a lot more back returning home.

    This.
    UA 1039 AUA - EWR only has 20 empty seats with F full.
    UA 1043 AUA - EWR only has 7 empty seats with F full.

    People are still traveling home from various warm weather destinations. But they are obviously not just leaving for them.
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 252
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

    Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:58 pm

    I hope that any US govt help to any industry is in either a low interest loan or an equity position. This is how 2008 worked more or less with the banks. Overall the Govt got a good percentage of the money back when they sold those shares. So the US Treasury would own 49% of AMR/UA/DL. And a seat on the BOD.

    Out right grants should only be given to help lower income workers throughout the country (i.e. someone whose AGI is less than say $60K).
      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
       
      NZ321
      Posts: 1216
      Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:21 pm

      PacoMartin wrote:
      CX Flyboy wrote:
      The HKG stoppage was planned a while ago as part of their RR 787 grounding. Cathay are flying services on behalf of ANZ with a CX flight number (albeit a 4 digit one)


      So ANZ has 30 long range aircraft and for right now the only long range destination they have is LAX.

      8 Boeing 777-200 13.9 Years
      8 Boeing 777-300 8.2 Years
      14 Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner 3.8 Years


      Not correct - they have Singapore. Flights to both Singapore and LAX are being retained. Not sure about Hong Kong.
      Plane mad!
       
      na
      Posts: 9768
      Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:29 pm

      By now Air France has stored 6 Boeing 777s at Chalons-Vatry. Source: skyliner-aviation.de
       
      npier598
      Posts: 2
      Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:56 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:35 pm

      Delta A350 enroute to Blytheville, AR (KBYH) as DAL9942 for storage? I thought Delta was only sending planes to Marana (KMZJ) and Birmingham (KBMH) to be parked?
       
      bhxdtw
      Posts: 1156
      Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:47 pm

      Hi guys, there's a lot of comments above and I haven't got the time to trawl thru them all, however could someone explain to me why there are still departures showing from LHR to various points in the USA tomorrow.

      Maybe I misunderstood but I thought there was no travel permitted currently between Europe and USA inc UK. There are cancellations but there are flights showing not cancelled with VS,AA,UA ...
       
      KirkSeattle
      Posts: 346
      Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:32 am

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:48 pm

      npier598 wrote:
      Delta A350 enroute to Blytheville, AR (KBYH) as DAL9942 for storage? I thought Delta was only sending planes to Marana (KMZJ) and Birmingham (KBMH) to be parked?


      See the Delta Widebody thread. It seems that an automation issue with the Flight Number because some of these flight numbers were used for MD 88 retirements. The thread said the A350's that are going into storage are indeed going to BMH.
       
      smokeybandit
      Posts: 1379
      Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:50 pm

      Flights to get respective country's citizens home?
       
      npier598
      Posts: 2
      Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 9:56 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:55 pm

      KirkSeattle wrote:
      npier598 wrote:
      Delta A350 enroute to Blytheville, AR (KBYH) as DAL9942 for storage? I thought Delta was only sending planes to Marana (KMZJ) and Birmingham (KBMH) to be parked?


      See the Delta Widebody thread. It seems that an automation issue with the Flight Number because some of these flight numbers were used for MD 88 retirements. The thread said the A350's that are going into storage are indeed going to BMH.


      Hmm. Flightradar24 shows the Delta A359 descending into the Blytheville area. Looks like DAL9942 is in fact landing in Arkansas.
       
      uta999
      Posts: 917
      Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:06 pm

      If this drags on as expected for many months, could we see whole fleets such as BA, LH, AF ferry their assets to the desert?

      Can they seal them all sufficiently to store a large fleet here in the UK & EU for six months?
      Your computer just got better
       
      dmstorm22
      Posts: 613
      Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

      Re: Coronavirus Aviation Related News & Discussion Thread - March 2020 - Part II

      Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:08 pm

      bhxdtw wrote:
      Hi guys, there's a lot of comments above and I haven't got the time to trawl thru them all, however could someone explain to me why there are still departures showing from LHR to various points in the USA tomorrow.

      Maybe I misunderstood but I thought there was no travel permitted currently between Europe and USA inc UK. There are cancellations but there are flights showing not cancelled with VS,AA,UA ...


      Unless something changed there is travel permitted just not for EU nationals (extended then to UK and Ireland) to enter the USA.

      US Citizens/permanent residents currently in Europe still can get back in the country.

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