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UPS757Pilot
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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:22 am

New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:01 pm

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... offerings/
Boeing to renew medium and large widebody freighter offerings
Article is behind a paywall, but does anyone have any further information?
 
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Revelation
Posts: 27046
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Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:17 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipment/aircraft/boeing-to-renew-medium-and-large-widebody-freighter-offerings/
Boeing to renew medium and large widebody freighter offerings
Article is behind a paywall, but does anyone have any further information?

My guess is the rest of the article says not much more than an upgrade is planned, but no details, otherwise we'd have seen other sites reporting this already.
 
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DBCoop3r
Posts: 82
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Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:00 pm

I'd guess 777-8XF is in the medium term plans?
 
UPS757Pilot
Topic Author
Posts: 197
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Re: New Boeing Freighters

Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:21 am

767XF and 777-8XF?
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: New Boeing Freighters

Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:23 am

Probably the 787F.
 
JayinKitsap
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:29 am

Most likely clickbait for the two proposals we know of: the 77W P2F conversion GECAS is taking charge on and the B764F with the 747's GEnX engines.

I think the B764F has a lot of promise, lots more volume, better fuel efficiency, and more payload. It's really the 764 frame and gear merged with the current 763's systems, about the same effort to certify as a stretch.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article
 
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Antaras
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:39 am

I have been waiting for this for a decade.
Image
 
F14TCT
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:48 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:43 pm

DBCoop3r wrote:
I'd guess 777-8XF is in the medium term plans?


Stan Deal spoke of two freighters. One in the 40-80t category, one in the 80+t.

40-80t could be NMA, 80+t could be 787 or 777X.
 
Twiz747
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:30 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:59 pm

I can't disclose much but "we" visit Boeing's factory in Everett not too long ago. They propose a 767-400F with a detuned version of the GenX engine.

I believe this is the freighter they will be launching.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27724
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Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:40 pm

Twiz747 wrote:
I can't disclose much but "we" visit Boeing's factory in Everett not too long ago. They propose a 767-400F with a detuned version of the GenX engine. I believe this is the freighter they will be launching.


Boeing has been floating this concept for some time now with various potential customers. They finally found one interested enough in buying a couple score?
 
IWMBH
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:02 pm

Stitch wrote:
Twiz747 wrote:
I can't disclose much but "we" visit Boeing's factory in Everett not too long ago. They propose a 767-400F with a detuned version of the GenX engine. I believe this is the freighter they will be launching.


Boeing has been floating this concept for some time now with various potential customers. They finally found one interested enough in buying a couple score?


I do think the -400F can be a success, but I don't aspect any new airplane orders till the Coronavirus is history.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:08 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Most likely clickbait for the two proposals we know of: the 77W P2F conversion GECAS is taking charge on and the B764F with the 747's GEnX engines.

I think the B764F has a lot of promise, lots more volume, better fuel efficiency, and more payload. It's really the 764 frame and gear merged with the current 763's systems, about the same effort to certify as a stretch.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article


The 763F airframe uses the same exact systems as the first 762 from 1982. I'm sure many of those 8 bit processors will be obsolete soon, so I think it's more likely they will go with the KC-46's systems.

However, Airbus still gets by with 1987 systems and early 80s processors on the A320 NEO, so who knows...
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:40 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Most likely clickbait for the two proposals we know of: the 77W P2F conversion GECAS is taking charge on and the B764F with the 747's GEnX engines.

I think the B764F has a lot of promise, lots more volume, better fuel efficiency, and more payload. It's really the 764 frame and gear merged with the current 763's systems, about the same effort to certify as a stretch.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article


The 763F airframe uses the same exact systems as the first 762 from 1982. I'm sure many of those 8 bit processors will be obsolete soon, so I think it's more likely they will go with the KC-46's systems.

However, Airbus still gets by with 1987 systems and early 80s processors on the A320 NEO, so who knows...


I agree, the 767-2C will be the basis for the change, replace engines to GEnx-2B67, substitute the 764 wings, gear, and structure. Might bring in a lot of the -2C features so there is a military grade 764F certified, provided this doesn't hurt the economics too much. The next big contract for tankers then could shrink this new -400 back to the -2C length to gain both time on station and possibly payload.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-12-21 ... C-Aircraft
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 976
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:02 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Most likely clickbait for the two proposals we know of: the 77W P2F conversion GECAS is taking charge on and the B764F with the 747's GEnX engines.

I think the B764F has a lot of promise, lots more volume, better fuel efficiency, and more payload. It's really the 764 frame and gear merged with the current 763's systems, about the same effort to certify as a stretch.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article


The 763F airframe uses the same exact systems as the first 762 from 1982. I'm sure many of those 8 bit processors will be obsolete soon, so I think it's more likely they will go with the KC-46's systems.

However, Airbus still gets by with 1987 systems and early 80s processors on the A320 NEO, so who knows...


I’m pretty confident you don’t know what you are talking about if you think the 763F uses the exact same systems as a 1982 762.

The 767 has already been re-engined once when the CF6-80C2/PW4000s were introduced in the late 1980s.

The avionics has also been thoroughly upgraded. Here is a quote from a 2008 thread discussing upgrades on the 767.

AAH732UAL wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/ABX-Air/Boeing-767-232(BDSF)/1067871/M/

And if you see.... all those planes are decked out with all of the following.
1)GPS MMR(multi mode reciever)
2)Better RNP(required nav performance)
3)RNAV approach able
4)Possibility of further WAAS(Wide area augmentation system)/LPV(loc precision w/ vertical guidance) and LAAS(local area augmentation system) upgrades.

5)ASD-B(Automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast)

Another is adding Pegasus FMCs w/ GPS MMR making them capable of RNP and RNAV(GPS) and SAAAR(special aircraft and aircrew authorization required) (RNP) approaches.

I got a feeling most stuff is around the FMC and adding GPS and maybe WAAS if the airline has the money for WAAS GPS. (Look at my profile pic) Its a 777 Pegasus FMC, but that is the new model that can support everything except for WASS/LPV. (787 FMC has WAAS/LPV and RNP.1)

The 757/767 is old technology..... this is just to bring the planes into the NEW FAA . The FAAs new idea is to.... make new things(enroute, terminal, etc.) that can be used by most current avionics with some small upgrades.

BTW.......
the 757/767 could do 0/0 if it wanted if it could park on the runway.

The CATs are more airline dependent and what the airline can tain for the flight crews..... not just airplane dependent.

As I said, the NEW FAA w/ all their HAR(high alt redesign) and starting to dump NDBs, VORs, and ILS instead for FMC performance based things.

The upgrades have nothing to do with ILS..... it has to do with next Gen RNAV and that fact that the 757/767 has many good years left, but not if there is no ground based things for the plane to fly off of.

757/767 is from the late 70s early 80s and besides upgrades to the FMC(like this new one) has not changed much.

WAAS/LPV w/ proper lighting can be as good as a CATI ILS. There is also workings for the future for an actual GPS/GNSS landing system.

Right now its mostly GA with RNP approaches showing up in commercial aviation...... but these airlines are gearing for the future.

I called ABX one day and they have RNAV(GPS) and maybe (RNP) approach approval right now with those new panels on some of their 762s.

Hope I helped.[Edited 2008-06-16 13:57:23]


viewtopic.php?t=758097

Obviously these flight decks are different

Image


https://worldairlinenews.com/2019/05/31 ... -cockpits/
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:14 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Most likely clickbait for the two proposals we know of: the 77W P2F conversion GECAS is taking charge on and the B764F with the 747's GEnX engines.

I think the B764F has a lot of promise, lots more volume, better fuel efficiency, and more payload. It's really the 764 frame and gear merged with the current 763's systems, about the same effort to certify as a stretch.

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 57.article


The 763F airframe uses the same exact systems as the first 762 from 1982. I'm sure many of those 8 bit processors will be obsolete soon, so I think it's more likely they will go with the KC-46's systems.

However, Airbus still gets by with 1987 systems and early 80s processors on the A320 NEO, so who knows...


I’m pretty confident you don’t know what you are talking about if you think the 763F uses the exact same systems as a 1982 762.

The 767 has already been re-engined once when the CF6-80C2/PW4000s were introduced in the late 1980s.

The avionics has also been thoroughly upgraded. Here is a quote from a 2008 thread discussing upgrades on the 767.

AAH732UAL wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/ABX-Air/Boeing-767-232(BDSF)/1067871/M/

And if you see.... all those planes are decked out with all of the following.
1)GPS MMR(multi mode reciever)
2)Better RNP(required nav performance)
3)RNAV approach able
4)Possibility of further WAAS(Wide area augmentation system)/LPV(loc precision w/ vertical guidance) and LAAS(local area augmentation system) upgrades.

5)ASD-B(Automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast)

Another is adding Pegasus FMCs w/ GPS MMR making them capable of RNP and RNAV(GPS) and SAAAR(special aircraft and aircrew authorization required) (RNP) approaches.

I got a feeling most stuff is around the FMC and adding GPS and maybe WAAS if the airline has the money for WAAS GPS. (Look at my profile pic) Its a 777 Pegasus FMC, but that is the new model that can support everything except for WASS/LPV. (787 FMC has WAAS/LPV and RNP.1)

The 757/767 is old technology..... this is just to bring the planes into the NEW FAA . The FAAs new idea is to.... make new things(enroute, terminal, etc.) that can be used by most current avionics with some small upgrades.

BTW.......
the 757/767 could do 0/0 if it wanted if it could park on the runway.

The CATs are more airline dependent and what the airline can tain for the flight crews..... not just airplane dependent.

As I said, the NEW FAA w/ all their HAR(high alt redesign) and starting to dump NDBs, VORs, and ILS instead for FMC performance based things.

The upgrades have nothing to do with ILS..... it has to do with next Gen RNAV and that fact that the 757/767 has many good years left, but not if there is no ground based things for the plane to fly off of.

757/767 is from the late 70s early 80s and besides upgrades to the FMC(like this new one) has not changed much.

WAAS/LPV w/ proper lighting can be as good as a CATI ILS. There is also workings for the future for an actual GPS/GNSS landing system.

Right now its mostly GA with RNP approaches showing up in commercial aviation...... but these airlines are gearing for the future.

I called ABX one day and they have RNAV(GPS) and maybe (RNP) approach approval right now with those new panels on some of their 762s.

Hope I helped.[Edited 2008-06-16 13:57:23]


viewtopic.php?t=758097

Obviously these flight decks are different

Image


https://worldairlinenews.com/2019/05/31 ... -cockpits/


Ok, FMC and cockpit displays changed in the last 38 years. The overall ARINC 429-based avionic data architecture has remained the same.

Also, the CF6-80A was introduced in '82, which was the direct predecessor of the C2 (the C2 is from the mid 80s actually, completely different era to the late 80s). It's like saying the A320 was first re-engined in the mid 90s when the CFM56-5B came out.

You'd at least think the A320 and A330 NEO could get the A350 flight deck treatment.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:22 pm

B787-8F would be the only one that actually make sense. It would help the -8 orders to go up.

B777-8X isn't viable for now or the future, B767-300ERF is a dinosaur. And the MAX is grounded.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 976
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:24 pm

1989worstyear wrote:

Ok, FMC and cockpit displays in the last 38 years.

Also, the CF6-80A was introduced in '82, which was the direct predecessor of the C2 (the C2 is from the mid 80s actually, completely different era to the late 80s). It's like saying the A320 was first re-engined in the mid 90s when the CFM56-5B came out.


The CF6-80C2 has a 20% thrust increase, a 10% increase in bypass ratio, an 8% bigger fan and has FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control). All of that allowed a 30% increase in MTOW. That’s a bigger Upgrade than from the A320 to the A320neo. The 767 has certainly gone through upgrades in terms of both avionics and performance since 1982.
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:33 pm

I would think the 787F (-8 or -9) would be much faster certified than a re-engined 764F. I remember that the wiring and system placement of the 787 is already prepared for a freighter use, even as conversation.

Downside of the 787F is the wingspan, but a 764F would also adding wingspan, too (compared to the current 763F without winglets).
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2695
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:42 pm

There was some back and forth on the specific cockpits for the 767F. The -2C is basically a 787 glass cockpit, but the 767-300F may be in a weird phase where the new glass cockpit is done aftermarket so its certification also covered conversions too. I recall something from last year that they are finally getting approval to install the conversion on the Boeing line, not after.

https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-an ... 23.article

http://www.boeing.com/farnborough2014/p ... 3_2014.pdf
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:44 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
I would think the 787F (-8 or -9) would be much faster certified than a re-engined 764F. I remember that the wiring and system placement of the 787 is already prepared for a freighter use, even as conversation.

Downside of the 787F is the wingspan, but a 764F would also adding wingspan, too (compared to the current 763F without winglets).


Would Boeing perhaps consider dropping the raked tips on a 764F and going with winglets instead? Perhaps with a split-scimitar type design? That way it would be able to fit better at exsiting 762/3F positions. I do think though that a 787F and a 764F are pretty similar levels of work (a 787F perhaps actually less so) so it seems to make less sense to me for Boeing to pick a 767 frame as a base to work on (given that even with a 767 re-engine the 787 is a much more modern frame) unless they are interested in keeping the 767 line running longer-term for more possible future KC-46 orders.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:02 pm

ewt340 wrote:
B787-8F would be the only one that actually make sense. It would help the -8 orders to go up.

B777-8X isn't viable for now or the future, B767-300ERF is a dinosaur. And the MAX is grounded.


Using your logic, the A320-200 should be a "dinosaur" in about 1.5 years:

767-300ER: December 1986
A320-200: June 1988


:?

The whole point of this exercise was to replace the mid 80s engines on the 767F due to upcoming emissions regulations, airframe being old or not.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:56 pm

Sorry if this is off-topic but:
If the 767-400F does become a reality, would it also be possible to then order 767-400’s?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27046
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:50 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Sorry if this is off-topic but:
If the 767-400F does become a reality, would it also be possible to then order 767-400’s?

Anything is possible if enough money is provided, but I doubt it would make sense. 787-8 would have the same engines but better aerodynamics and much more modern systems with a cabin that these days typically provides 8x seating. I doubt any airline would pay enough for Boeing to build enough -400s to make it worth the effort. It'd make more sense for pretty much everyone involved to just go with 787-8.
 
ILikeTrains
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:18 am

Revelation wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Sorry if this is off-topic but:
If the 767-400F does become a reality, would it also be possible to then order 767-400’s?

Anything is possible if enough money is provided, but I doubt it would make sense. 787-8 would have the same engines but better aerodynamics and much more modern systems with a cabin that these days typically provides 8x seating. I doubt any airline would pay enough for Boeing to build enough -400s to make it worth the effort. It'd make more sense for pretty much everyone involved to just go with 787-8.


Would it be enticing to customers that wanted to fit into smaller gates?
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27046
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:28 am

ILikeTrains wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Sorry if this is off-topic but:
If the 767-400F does become a reality, would it also be possible to then order 767-400’s?

Anything is possible if enough money is provided, but I doubt it would make sense. 787-8 would have the same engines but better aerodynamics and much more modern systems with a cabin that these days typically provides 8x seating. I doubt any airline would pay enough for Boeing to build enough -400s to make it worth the effort. It'd make more sense for pretty much everyone involved to just go with 787-8.


Would it be enticing to customers that wanted to fit into smaller gates?

That's certainly a thing for UPS and FX since SDF and MEM can't grow much if at all and they need all the aircraft at the hub during the sort.

It's less of a thing for airlines since 767 tends to use international airports that are already set up with wide body gates with banks spread out throught the day.

It's not enough of a thing to make 764 pax come back to life, IMO.
 
docmtl
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:05 am

Do you guys think the new C-390 Millenium by Boeing-Embraer could find a niche in the civil freighter market ?

There's a Civil version on the drawing board, it seems...

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=984

Cheers,

docmtl
 
JohanTally
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:44 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:12 am

docmtl wrote:
Do you guys think the new C-390 Millenium by Boeing-Embraer could find a niche in the civil freighter market ?

There's a Civil version on the drawing board, it seems...

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=984

Cheers,

docmtl


Boeing-Embraer might not be a thing. It will be hard for Boeing to explain buying Embraer commercial while being propped up by billions of bailout dollars headed their way.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:58 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
There was some back and forth on the specific cockpits for the 767F. The -2C is basically a 787 glass cockpit, but the 767-300F may be in a weird phase where the new glass cockpit is done aftermarket so its certification also covered conversions too. I recall something from last year that they are finally getting approval to install the conversion on the Boeing line, not after.

https://www.flightglobal.com/systems-an ... 23.article

http://www.boeing.com/farnborough2014/p ... 3_2014.pdf

use the 764 cockpit which is more advanced than the 763 cockpit and closer to gthe 777 cockpit or the KC-46 whick iw more advanced still.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:24 am

1989worstyear wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
B787-8F would be the only one that actually make sense. It would help the -8 orders to go up.

B777-8X isn't viable for now or the future, B767-300ERF is a dinosaur. And the MAX is grounded.


Using your logic, the A320-200 should be a "dinosaur" in about 1.5 years:

767-300ER: December 1986
A320-200: June 1988


:?

The whole point of this exercise was to replace the mid 80s engines on the 767F due to upcoming emissions regulations, airframe being old or not.


Yes it is. Look at what Boeing got by putting new engines on B737's 60s design.

What they need is the push for B787. They already cutting production numbers even before the virus because of lack of orders. B787-8 only got 51 backlog left. If they didn't do anything about it, it might ended up like A330-200.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1078
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:12 am

ewt340 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
B787-8F would be the only one that actually make sense. It would help the -8 orders to go up.

B777-8X isn't viable for now or the future, B767-300ERF is a dinosaur. And the MAX is grounded.


Using your logic, the A320-200 should be a "dinosaur" in about 1.5 years:

767-300ER: December 1986
A320-200: June 1988


:?

The whole point of this exercise was to replace the mid 80s engines on the 767F due to upcoming emissions regulations, airframe being old or not.


Yes it is. Look at what Boeing got by putting new engines on B737's 60s design.

What they need is the push for B787. They already cutting production numbers even before the virus because of lack of orders. B787-8 only got 51 backlog left. If they didn't do anything about it, it might ended up like A330-200.

Smaller versions of aircraft tend to have their sales taper off after a while, well before the larger versions. We saw it with the 767-200, the 737-700, 737-300, A319, etc. A fleet of 422 for a subtype is not bad sales by any measure.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: New Boeing Freighters

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:26 am

speedbird52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Using your logic, the A320-200 should be a "dinosaur" in about 1.5 years:

767-300ER: December 1986
A320-200: June 1988


:?

The whole point of this exercise was to replace the mid 80s engines on the 767F due to upcoming emissions regulations, airframe being old or not.


Yes it is. Look at what Boeing got by putting new engines on B737's 60s design.

What they need is the push for B787. They already cutting production numbers even before the virus because of lack of orders. B787-8 only got 51 backlog left. If they didn't do anything about it, it might ended up like A330-200.

Smaller versions of aircraft tend to have their sales taper off after a while, well before the larger versions. We saw it with the 767-200, the 737-700, 737-300, A319, etc. A fleet of 422 for a subtype is not bad sales by any measure.


Yes, but the main problem is not about how many order they gather so far. It's how many more orders of that variants they need to get in the future. Sure they got 422 orders. But it doesn't mean that a Freighter version of the -8 would be a bad idea. This could be a really good project to solidified Boeing's position in the Freighter market and kill off A330F.

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