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Antaras
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Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 7,550nm nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:35 am

Yesterday, VN's newest 78X, VN-A874 (LN 972, GE-powered) ferried CHS-HAN nonstop on delivery as VN98.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vn-a874#24275efd
Image
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Edited title for clarity
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ikolkyo
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:38 am

An empty wide-body with big fuel tanks and efficient engines. Not very surprising, probably had good winds on top of it all since it flew east.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 am

Antaras wrote:
Yesterday, VN's newest 78X, VN-A874 (LN 976, GE-powered) ferried CHS-HAN nonstop on delivery as VN98.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vn-a874#24275efd
Image
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]



EY operated 787-10 last November AUH-BNE due to a tech issue with their 787-9 normally on the route.
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:56 am

Aircraft are routinely ferried well over their max range by use of in cabin fuel tanks. Mokulele use to ferry Caravans from Hawaii to California with fuel tanks installed in the cabin.
 
hz747300
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:58 am

Still pretty good accomplishment!
Keep on truckin'...
 
amirs
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:15 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
Aircraft are routinely ferried well over their max range by use of in cabin fuel tanks. Mokulele use to ferry Caravans from Hawaii to California with fuel tanks installed in the cabin.

More fuel tanks actually make it more impressive since it more weight
 
JohanTally
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:45 am

This plane would not of had additional tanks for a simple ferry flight that easily could of stopped along the way to add fuel. It was however able to fill the existing tanks completely full which you typically can't do on the 78J because of the MTOW. Hawaii ferry flights are unique because there are no alternates therefore if you don't have the range you have to add tanks. The Hawaiian 717 delivery flights I remember having large auxiliary tanks added.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:50 am

amirs wrote:
More fuel tanks actually make it more impressive since it more weight

Sorry, I didn't get it. What do you mean by "make it more impressive"?
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ikolkyo
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:15 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
Aircraft are routinely ferried well over their max range by use of in cabin fuel tanks. Mokulele use to ferry Caravans from Hawaii to California with fuel tanks installed in the cabin.


That’s really for smaller aircraft, Hawaiian’s 717s are a good example.
 
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zeke
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:50 am

Antaras wrote:
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


Where does Boeing use automotive units when describing their products ? You may as well say it flew 45,875,893 ft or 550,510,716 inches if you want the numbers to look bigger.

CHS-HAN is the design range of the 787-9 (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/ 7530 nm vs 7550 nm) with passengers and baggage only, it should come of no surprise to anyone that a 787-10 can fly that distance with no payload.

QF have flown a 744 LHR-SYD (in 1989) and a A330 TLS-MEL (in 2002) and a both of which are considerably further than CHS-HAN with much older engine technology.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Antarius
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:56 am

zeke wrote:
Antaras wrote:
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


Where does Boeing use automotive units when describing their products ? You may as well say it flew 45,875,893 ft or 550,510,716 inches if you want the numbers to look bigger.

CHS-HAN is the design range of the 787-9 (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/ 7530 nm vs 7550 nm) with passengers and baggage only, it should come of no surprise to anyone that a 787-10 can fly that distance with no payload.

QF have flown a 744 LHR-SYD (in 1989) and a A330 TLS-MEL (in 2002) and a both of which are considerably further than CHS-HAN with much older engine technology.


Considering the OP used the same unit of measure across the board, the point was conveyed fairly clearly. Even if not in your preferred unit of measure.

But hey, it was only a matter of time before you pooh-poohed anything positive from one certain manufacturer. If you don't find it impressive, maybe skip the topic?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
airzona11
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:01 am

Very cool to see. Was at CHS a little while back and caught a glimpse of the VN 78X, great looking plane.

Who is onboard these flights? Is it strictly pilots/relief pilots?

Antarius wrote:
zeke wrote:
Antaras wrote:
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


Where does Boeing use automotive units when describing their products ? You may as well say it flew 45,875,893 ft or 550,510,716 inches if you want the numbers to look bigger.

CHS-HAN is the design range of the 787-9 (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/ 7530 nm vs 7550 nm) with passengers and baggage only, it should come of no surprise to anyone that a 787-10 can fly that distance with no payload.

QF have flown a 744 LHR-SYD (in 1989) and a A330 TLS-MEL (in 2002) and a both of which are considerably further than CHS-HAN with much older engine technology.


Considering the OP used the same unit of measure across the board, the point was conveyed fairly clearly. Even if not in your preferred unit of measure.

But hey, it was only a matter of time before you pooh-poohed anything positive from one certain manufacturer.


+1. And don’t forget the A321XLR could have flown there and back.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:10 am

zeke wrote:
Where does Boeing use automotive units when describing their products ? You may as well say it flew 45,875,893 ft or 550,510,716 inches if you want the numbers to look bigger.
CHS-HAN is the design range of the 787-9 (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/ 7530 nm vs 7550 nm)

That is the ACTUAL DISTANCE THAT THE AIRCRAFT FLEW based on fr24's data.
Just have a look a the ideal flightpath (red-line) and the actual VN98's flightpath. Big difference.
Image
In other words, HVN and/or Boeing have chosen the longer path over Europe(due to some reason such as wind condition, etc...) but not the great-circle shortest path over the north-pole.
.
Last edited by Antaras on Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:18 am

airzona11 wrote:
Who is onboard these flights? Is it strictly pilots/relief pilots?

I don't know. It is strange that this time Vietnam Airlines didn't announce anything about this newbie in its fleet (while the previous 3 did).
Maybe VN is planning sth big about this plane (waiting for some new special livery or sticker) before a big official introduction, perhaps ??? :D ???
However, Vietnam Airlines has a tradition that pilots who fly the new airframes on the delivery ferry flight must be Vietnamese. As I know there are not many Vietnamese pilots are trained for nonstop ULH fights so, it's interesting to see who are the pilots.
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sabby
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:30 am

Antarius wrote:
zeke wrote:
Antaras wrote:
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


Where does Boeing use automotive units when describing their products ? You may as well say it flew 45,875,893 ft or 550,510,716 inches if you want the numbers to look bigger.

CHS-HAN is the design range of the 787-9 (https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/ 7530 nm vs 7550 nm) with passengers and baggage only, it should come of no surprise to anyone that a 787-10 can fly that distance with no payload.

QF have flown a 744 LHR-SYD (in 1989) and a A330 TLS-MEL (in 2002) and a both of which are considerably further than CHS-HAN with much older engine technology.


Considering the OP used the same unit of measure across the board, the point was conveyed fairly clearly. Even if not in your preferred unit of measure.

But hey, it was only a matter of time before you pooh-poohed anything positive from one certain manufacturer. If you don't find it impressive, maybe skip the topic?


OP did make a mess out of units. They measured the distance in statute miles. However, they used the range of 787-9 and 787-10 of nautical miles and wrote them in statute miles.
CHS-HAN is 7550 nm. The range of 787-10 with 33T payload is 6345 nm. Substituting payload with fuel and using 5.6T per hour fuel will add 2700 nm extra range so a 787-10 can do 9000 nm with additional fuel but no passengers. In reality, just filling the full fuel capacity will get the 787-10 from CHS to HAN and with some light passengers load (~150 pax) too.
Another thing to note is that this flight took an east bound route to take advantage of the winds, so the ground distance range would be even more thanks to the tail winds.
 
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zeke
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:33 am

Antarius wrote:

Considering the OP used the same unit of measure across the board, the point was conveyed fairly clearly. Even if not in your preferred unit of measure.


Nothing to do with my “preference”, and your assertion that units have been used consistently is false, the great circle distance is 7550 nm as I stated. See the link I posted, Boeing states the 787-10 design range as 6,345 nm.

You are using automotive units (sm) as your preference in FR24, it has nothing to do with me.
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sabby
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:35 am

Antaras wrote:
Yesterday, VN's newest 78X, VN-A874 (LN 972, GE-powered) ferried CHS-HAN nonstop on delivery as VN98.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vn-a874#24275efd
Image
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


If you are going to use the ferry range in statute miles, then you should the published ranges in statute miles as well. 787-10 still air published range with full passenger load is 7302 statute miles and for 787-9 it is 8665 statue miles.
 
questions
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:53 am

On which routes will VN deploy the 787-10?
 
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:17 am

questions wrote:
On which routes will VN deploy the 787-10?

From Vietnam to Shanghai, Incheon and Busan. All are mid-haul routes.
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astuteman
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:34 am

Antaras wrote:
Yesterday, VN's newest 78X, VN-A874 (LN 972, GE-powered) ferried CHS-HAN nonstop on delivery as VN98.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vn-a874#24275efd
Image
The flight took more than 17 hours, ferried 8690 miles, significantly longer than Boeing's 78X-range estimation (6345 miles) [or even longer than the 789's theoretical range 7530 miles].
Previously, VN's 787-10s ferried CHS-BFI-HAN or CHS-KIX-HAN on delivery, but this time, Vietnam Airlines and/or Boeing decided to ferry the airframe nonstop.
What is the purpose of BOE and/or HVN by doing this? Were they testing 78X's long-haul ability?
Is this the longest flight that a 78X ever performed?

I know that this was just a ferry flight. But I am surprised that a 78X can fly this long.
[I remember there was a thread about an Etihad's 78X flew a damn long flight, but I couldn't remember how long was that flight]


Whilst impressive, I don't understand why this is surprising.
Stand aside your mixing up of statute miles and nautical miles.....
CHS-HAN is 7, 550Nm, and I would suggest sticking to Nautical Miles as it is the measure the OEM's use.

The range/payload chart in the 787-10 ACAP

https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... ps/787.pdf

(page 38)
shows the 787-10 having a ferry range of 8,700Nm - a full 1,200Nm further than CHS-HAN, suggesting that this ferry flight was a long way inside the aircraft's capabilities

In fact the R/P chart implies that the trip could have been achieved whilst carrying a 50k lb payload

Rgds
 
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:40 am

Thank you guys for letting me know that Boeing's "miles" is nautical miles.

Next time I would use kilometer for a better life......
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B777LRF
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:07 am

Nothing at all unusual about a wide-body with full tanks and nil payload being able to fly great distances.

Antaras wrote:
Thank you guys for letting me know that Boeing's "miles" is nautical miles.

Next time I would use kilometer for a better life......


Nothing to do with Boeing, it's aviation standard in the whole world with the exception of China and Russia:

Distance = Nautical miles
Velocity = Knots
Altitude = Feet

Stick to those standards and there will be no confusion.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:38 am

Antaras wrote:
questions wrote:
On which routes will VN deploy the 787-10?

From Vietnam to Shanghai, Incheon and Busan. All are mid-haul routes.


If so, it'll be stuck in HAN for awhile seeing as no Korean service at the moment.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:51 am

Scotron12 wrote:
If so, it'll be stuck in HAN for awhile seeing as no Korean service at the moment.


Stay at your hotel bro. Going out in Hanoi at this moment is risky and suicidal.
Stay there, relax and waiting for SKorea services to be restarted next few (or many) weeks.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:51 am

astuteman wrote:
The range/payload chart in the 787-10 ACAP

https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... ps/787.pdf
(page 38)
shows the 787-10 having a ferry range of 8,700Nm - a full 1,200Nm further than CHS-HAN, suggesting that this ferry flight was a long way inside the aircraft's capabilities

In fact the R/P chart implies that the trip could have been achieved whilst carrying a 50k lb payload

Rgds

I have attempted to more accurately replicate the FR24 flightpath and have come up with the following routing

CHS-PSL (Perth, Scotland) - VOG (Volgograd) - SCO (Hell, not a clue) - DEL - HAN

Total is 8711 nm

Which is pretty close to the OPs title figure of 8690, except my numbers are nm nautical miles. :lol:

And... exactly in line with the 8700nm you have quoted above. :bigthumbsup:

(and for the rest of you here, that's 10,025 english miles, and God Bless Queen Elizabeth I)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:12 pm

Antaras wrote:
That is the ACTUAL DISTANCE THAT THE AIRCRAFT FLEW based on fr24's data.
Just have a look a the ideal flightpath (red-line) and the actual VN98's flightpath. Big difference.


Not really. Over very long distances you can have a big deviation from the Great Circle path that yields fairly small incremental flown distance as %. FR24 cites a Great Circle path of 8,690 miles. You can use Great Circle Mapper with just four segments CHS-CPH-DEL-HAN to get a good approximation of route flown and it's just 9,987 statute miles. It's tough to estimate distances based on a map visualization. ANC-JNB is 10,009 sm and a Great Circle Path has you traveling over Helsinki and Cairo. ANC-JFK-JNB looks very, very different and is 11,354 statute miles.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=anc-jnb%0D ... =wls&DU=mi


I don't understand the fascination with range of empty long-haul aircraft. 'They can fly far!' Yes, and clouds can be high! Empty range has little relevance to operational range with a typical load of passengers and/or freight.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 8690 miles nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:34 pm

amirs wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
Aircraft are routinely ferried well over their max range by use of in cabin fuel tanks. Mokulele use to ferry Caravans from Hawaii to California with fuel tanks installed in the cabin.

More fuel tanks actually make it more impressive since it more weight


No, not at all. You have more fuel weight, but no passenger, bags or cargo weight.
Whatever
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Vietnam Airlines 787-10 ferried 7,550nm nonstop from CHS to HAN

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:45 pm

I feel like people don’t get the basic premise. Without passengers, it gives you 100kg per seat in available MTOW, the aircraft’s capacity. This means you can fill the tanks really full, AND, the aircraft will be more efficient at every point because it is not carrying inert payload like humans and suitcases on that journey.

As a result, you can go past the manufacturer specified range (which assumes a payload). The manufacturer does not expect you will fly it empty very often or that you care about its range in that configuration, so they do not list that range on the basic spec sheet. They do list it on payload vs range chart. That chart will clearly show that this type of trip is feasible for the airplane. There is zero surprise or new info, but it is neat to see them do uncommon trips.

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