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Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:33 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
It's both, I think. There's an outstanding chance that, at least in the US, we'll be done with the present level of social distancing in 3 or 4 months, but that means that everyday life will be back closer to normal, not that the economy will be.


I agree completely. But in the past several days, I've seen plenty of 'when this is over in a few months, what new routes will XXX see' and 'will DL use the downtime to expedite cabin refurbishments' type questions on here and elsewhere. I think a lot of users are naive toward the rebuilding process that's going to take place.


The former probably isn't a fair question, but the latter might be. Doesn't the slowdown give Boeing a chance to get the MAX up and running, 787 operators a chance to sort out engine issues, etc.? It may (note: may) also allow cash-rich airlines like DL to get some maintenance or refurbishments done.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6164
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:34 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:

It amazes me how many users on here think things will be back to normal within a few months. Companies have been quietly pulling out of summer convention travel, and now cities are cancelling events set to take place through June. I refuse to believe the Fed's position that we're not headed into a recession. IMO, it'll be at least a year -- and probably several -- before we match where we were last month.


Agreed.

The health crisis will calm down in a couple of months if we can follow the advice of our health leaders and suck it up for the next 4 weeks. The financial crisis will be with us for over a year at least.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:36 pm

alfa164 wrote:
AA was never considered to be a "home town airline" in the DFW area; Southwest and Braniff held that title. It did come in as a voracious - some might say vicious - predator (I am sure there are past threads about the "dirty tricks" AA is alleged to have taken) and, in the end, successfully drove BI - who was already struggling after over-expansion - out of business


When I was travelling regularly 1981-1983 to DFW from OMA, AA was never a consideration. BN was the 800 lb. gorilla, and my second choice was Texas international!
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:38 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

It amazes me how many users on here think things will be back to normal within a few months. Companies have been quietly pulling out of summer convention travel, and now cities are cancelling events set to take place through June. I refuse to believe the Fed's position that we're not headed into a recession. IMO, it'll be at least a year -- and probably several -- before we match where we were last month.


Agreed.

The health crisis will calm down in a couple of months if we can follow the advice of our health leaders and suck it up for the next 4 weeks. The financial crisis will be with us for over a year at least.


Perhaps. Perhaps not. Let’s not forget the underlying fundamentals of the economy were sound, perhaps even strong, leading into this, unlike the Great Recession of 2008-2009.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:42 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
[The former probably isn't a fair question, but the latter might be. Doesn't the slowdown give Boeing a chance to get the MAX up and running, 787 operators a chance to sort out engine issues, etc.? It may (note: may) also allow cash-rich airlines like DL to get some maintenance or refurbishments done.


The downturn's referencing the immediate downturn when DL says it will be grounding half its fleet. Obviously during the immediate threat no airline, when the industry is experiencing negative cash flows, would reasonably spend money on consumer enhancements, although I agree that will be evaluated when things turn to normalcy.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:47 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
[The former probably isn't a fair question, but the latter might be. Doesn't the slowdown give Boeing a chance to get the MAX up and running, 787 operators a chance to sort out engine issues, etc.? It may (note: may) also allow cash-rich airlines like DL to get some maintenance or refurbishments done.


The downturn's referencing the immediate downturn when DL says it will be grounding half its fleet. Obviously during the immediate threat no airline, when the industry is experiencing negative cash flows, would reasonably spend money on consumer enhancements, although I agree that will be evaluated when things turn to normalcy.


I think we agree. There's going to be a period - probably a pretty long period - where things are looking up but not yet back to normal. I view that as an ideal time to think about speeding up enhancements that were already planned on, say, February 1.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:52 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Let’s not forget the underlying fundamentals of the economy were sound, perhaps even strong, leading into this, unlike the Great Recession of 2008-2009.


It doesn't matter, recessions are always triggered by specific events. You have to consider the rippling effects: I provide accounting and consulting services. We have numerous clients that are being directly impacted by this event -- restaurant owners (some within the Disneyland Resort area), an organizer for LA Pride (which was cancelled), etc. We've already provided (or are providing) annual planning and year end, taxes, reviews/audits and other services, but we don't invoice until now or next month. These businesses are losing huge amounts of money paying expenses without the benefit of revenue. While the airlines will likely get a bailout, they won't. And the likelihood of these businesses timely paying us is slim at this point. Yet we've already paid our employees and other large expenses associated with the business. We're cutting expenses, but ultimately, I'm certain we'll have to retort to layoffs.

It's just a rippling effect that will impact tens of millions of workers.
 
tphuang
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:02 pm

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
babastud wrote:

Agreed, SEA has been way over served for some time now.


DL can also selectively prioritize SEA over everywhere else and destroy AS. They might not have made this decision prior to AA/AS partnership, but that partnership got DL's attention now.

From the mentioned cuts so far, it seems like RDU focus city is the one that's getting sacrificed in the short term, since that faces no determined competition.

Aside from that, it's between BOS, LAX and SEA on which ones will get cut more often. LAX is unlikely to choice there. So it's between BOS and SEA. They may think at present time that they can keep both. It really depends how long this goes. The longer it goes (let's say 4 to 6 months), the longer it will take demand to come back, then they will have to pick between the two or maybe both. At this point, they have more invested in SEA, so it's more likely they will keep sinking money there. Remember, by keeping capacity at SEA, they can gain gates over time if AS has to start cutting back. And AS will have to cut back soon.

In the past Delta has cut their core hubs to fund expansion of these focus cities. I think the smart financial decision is to do the opposite here. Cut the focus cities, but I'm not sure that is what will happen.


Totally agreed. If we can reach the crystal ball and see corporate booking fully return by October, then that's one thing. But if after virus dies away, it takes another year for traffic demand to go back to 2019 level, it would be absolutely insane not to cut BOS and SEA. Even LAX, are all the carriers going to continue dumping money there while they have barely enough cash to stay afloat?

One thing is for sure, whoever has the most cash on hand by the end of this will find a lot of opportunities that did not exist before. The legacies are going to come out of this significantly weaker than when they went in.
 
tphuang
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:03 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

It amazes me how many users on here think things will be back to normal within a few months. Companies have been quietly pulling out of summer convention travel, and now cities are cancelling events set to take place through June. I refuse to believe the Fed's position that we're not headed into a recession. IMO, it'll be at least a year -- and probably several -- before we match where we were last month.


Agreed.

The health crisis will calm down in a couple of months if we can follow the advice of our health leaders and suck it up for the next 4 weeks. The financial crisis will be with us for over a year at least.


Perhaps. Perhaps not. Let’s not forget the underlying fundamentals of the economy were sound, perhaps even strong, leading into this, unlike the Great Recession of 2008-2009.


If this is how AS management is looking at this crisis, AS will be in a world of trouble.
 
ericm2031
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:39 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
Has WN not made any close-in cuts yet? Or do they just not show up on here? There's got to be some weakness that can be pulled on the intra-CA/TX routes, FL, LAS, etc.


What's there left to cut for WN at this point? I would think the 3M8 cuts alone would've right-sized the network pre-COVID19 ... unless they haven't finalized those plans yet.


WN hasn't cut that much due to the MAX, they just couldn't grow what they had planned...and what little was cut was replaced with Hawaii, so essentially they are still flying a full schedule. They haven't retired many planes in the meantime, so the fleet is pretty close to what they had before the MAX too.
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:15 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
It's both, I think. There's an outstanding chance that, at least in the US, we'll be done with the present level of social distancing in 3 or 4 months, but that means that everyday life will be back closer to normal, not that the economy will be.


I agree completely. But in the past several days, I've seen plenty of 'when this is over in a few months, what new routes will XXX see' and 'will DL use the downtime to expedite cabin refurbishments' type questions on here and elsewhere. I think a lot of users are naive toward the rebuilding process that's going to take place.


This forum will have the air of an airplane boneyard for the near term.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:32 am

At this rate, Enilria will be sending us Train schedule changes.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:14 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
enilria wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

As long as the carrier has suspended change fees - and at this point, hasn't everyone? - I'm not sure I can get too worked up over not refunding nonrefundable fares. That's especially true where the carrier is offering a refund if the credit isn't used in a certain time period, like UA is doing.

If the airline cancels your flight you get a refund, not a credit. There may be an exception if the flight is cancelled by an act of god.

The airlines are hoping passengers will take the credit, not the refund so they are waiting until the last minute to allow you to cancel and get a refund.


That's not universally true. Quite a few airlines have policies where if they can get you to the intended destination within a reasonable amount of time, they do not owe a refund. So, for instance, UA's contract of carriage (Rule 24(C)(1)) would allow them to close DEN, connect passengers over ORD, and not owe many refunds.

Even so, the % is better if they force you to change it yourself, particularly if you booked before 3/1.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:16 pm

tphuang wrote:
Totally agreed. If we can reach the crystal ball and see corporate booking fully return by October, then that's one thing. But if after virus dies away, it takes another year for traffic demand to go back to 2019 level, it would be absolutely insane not to cut BOS and SEA. Even LAX, are all the carriers going to continue dumping money there while they have barely enough cash to stay afloat?

One thing is for sure, whoever has the most cash on hand by the end of this will find a lot of opportunities that did not exist before. The legacies are going to come out of this significantly weaker than when they went in.

1) I'm not sure anybody but the legacies come out at all...look at Spirit stock...
2) It would really irk me if Delta used my taxpayer bailout money to stamp out AS and B6
3) Buy real estate and gold. Inflation is coming.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:44 pm

Corporate bookings are going to be trashed for the remainder of the year.
Every company directly or indirectly is facing reduced revenue and cash flow issues in the near-term. Small businesses and large.

Even once we get the "all-clear" its going to be a slow ramp and slow loosening of travel restrictions. Operations, business critical, IT/tech implementations, and client facing services will ramp-up first.

The conference, convention, training, and quasi-discretionary corporate travel is going to be suppressed for the rest of the year if not well into 2021 from a budgetary perspective.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:58 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Corporate bookings are going to be trashed for the remainder of the year.
Every company directly or indirectly is facing reduced revenue and cash flow issues in the near-term. Small businesses and large.

Even once we get the "all-clear" its going to be a slow ramp and slow loosening of travel restrictions. Operations, business critical, IT/tech implementations, and client facing services will ramp-up first.

The conference, convention, training, and quasi-discretionary corporate travel is going to be suppressed for the rest of the year if not well into 2021 from a budgetary perspective.

I think there will be a lot of business development and sales travel that will explode after going to zero. In terms of other trade shows and festivals that are more tourism based, yes I think those are in trouble. I do think Disney and Vegas may snap back quickly just from the cabin fever aspect.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:07 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Why didn't AA keep some degree of flexibility for April? The current ban last for 30 days. It is likely this ban would be lifted before 15th April. What AA could do was to have a temporary schedule between 13th April to 5th May, and then decide whether to operate or not following the status of the ban. Such deep cut into May in one go seems to be too drastic and do not leave any room for manoeuvre. I am sure AA have done some home work and know the market reaction. I am just curious that what they know.




There is not going to be any demand in May even if all the close downs are lifted and an "All clear" given. Demand will not return before late summer at the earliest, and it won't be back to pre crisis levels until next year.
 
chonetsao
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:11 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Why didn't AA keep some degree of flexibility for April? The current ban last for 30 days. It is likely this ban would be lifted before 15th April. What AA could do was to have a temporary schedule between 13th April to 5th May, and then decide whether to operate or not following the status of the ban. Such deep cut into May in one go seems to be too drastic and do not leave any room for manoeuvre. I am sure AA have done some home work and know the market reaction. I am just curious that what they know.




There is not going to be any demand in May even if all the close downs are lifted and an "All clear" given. Demand will not return before late summer at the earliest, and it won't be back to pre crisis levels until next year.


Please add [IN MY OPINION] to your statement.

The truth is, we don't know what is going to happen tomorrow. If we know, we would not have the shut down.
 
afcjets
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:14 pm

enilria wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
enilria wrote:
If the airline cancels your flight you get a refund, not a credit. There may be an exception if the flight is cancelled by an act of god.

The airlines are hoping passengers will take the credit, not the refund so they are waiting until the last minute to allow you to cancel and get a refund.


That's not universally true. Quite a few airlines have policies where if they can get you to the intended destination within a reasonable amount of time, they do not owe a refund. So, for instance, UA's contract of carriage (Rule 24(C)(1)) would allow them to close DEN, connect passengers over ORD, and not owe many refunds.

Even so, the % is better if they force you to change it yourself, particularly if you booked before 3/1.


If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:40 pm

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Totally agreed. If we can reach the crystal ball and see corporate booking fully return by October, then that's one thing. But if after virus dies away, it takes another year for traffic demand to go back to 2019 level, it would be absolutely insane not to cut BOS and SEA. Even LAX, are all the carriers going to continue dumping money there while they have barely enough cash to stay afloat?

One thing is for sure, whoever has the most cash on hand by the end of this will find a lot of opportunities that did not exist before. The legacies are going to come out of this significantly weaker than when they went in.

1) I'm not sure anybody but the legacies come out at all...look at Spirit stock...
2) It would really irk me if Delta used my taxpayer bailout money to stamp out AS and B6
3) Buy real estate and gold. Inflation is coming.


I believe there is evidence the price of gold is being artificially held down.

Lol to the comment about enilria doing train schedules.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:59 pm

afcjets wrote:
enilria wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

That's not universally true. Quite a few airlines have policies where if they can get you to the intended destination within a reasonable amount of time, they do not owe a refund. So, for instance, UA's contract of carriage (Rule 24(C)(1)) would allow them to close DEN, connect passengers over ORD, and not owe many refunds.

Even so, the % is better if they force you to change it yourself, particularly if you booked before 3/1.


If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:00 pm

AirFiero wrote:
enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Totally agreed. If we can reach the crystal ball and see corporate booking fully return by October, then that's one thing. But if after virus dies away, it takes another year for traffic demand to go back to 2019 level, it would be absolutely insane not to cut BOS and SEA. Even LAX, are all the carriers going to continue dumping money there while they have barely enough cash to stay afloat?

One thing is for sure, whoever has the most cash on hand by the end of this will find a lot of opportunities that did not exist before. The legacies are going to come out of this significantly weaker than when they went in.

1) I'm not sure anybody but the legacies come out at all...look at Spirit stock...
2) It would really irk me if Delta used my taxpayer bailout money to stamp out AS and B6
3) Buy real estate and gold. Inflation is coming.


I believe there is evidence the price of gold is being artificially held down.

Lol to the comment about enilria doing train schedules.

They'll shut trains too
 
afcjets
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:18 pm

enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:
If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


I believe you, I just don't think it's intentional. This is an extreme and unprecedented situation we're in right now and you're doing it online. If you could actually get a reservation agent on the phone, they would likely waive it. If not, ask a supervisor. I bet they will say yes, or say give it a few more days.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:53 pm

afcjets wrote:
enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:
If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


I believe you, I just don't think it's intentional. This is an extreme and unprecedented situation we're in right now and you're doing it online. If you could actually get a reservation agent on the phone, they would likely waive it. If not, ask a supervisor. I bet they will say yes, or say give it a few more days.


It's unusual to see the words "Frontier" and "customer-friendly" in the same sentence, but I just received an email from F9 claiming that all changes (no change fees) and cancellations (full refunds) can now be accomplished online. I don't know how well it's working.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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enilria
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:52 am

afcjets wrote:
enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:
If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


I believe you, I just don't think it's intentional. This is an extreme and unprecedented situation we're in right now and you're doing it online. If you could actually get a reservation agent on the phone, they would likely waive it. If not, ask a supervisor. I bet they will say yes, or say give it a few more days.

Perhaps, but you can't get a supervisor. Why not cancel it then and let the software work? The only reason not to is to conserve cash. Execs at airlines that aren't doing this are telling me that is why other airlines are doing it.
Cubsrule wrote:
afcjets wrote:
enilria wrote:
I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


I believe you, I just don't think it's intentional. This is an extreme and unprecedented situation we're in right now and you're doing it online. If you could actually get a reservation agent on the phone, they would likely waive it. If not, ask a supervisor. I bet they will say yes, or say give it a few more days.


It's unusual to see the words "Frontier" and "customer-friendly" in the same sentence, but I just received an email from F9 claiming that all changes (no change fees) and cancellations (full refunds) can now be accomplished online. I don't know how well it's working.

If that is true. Applause. I hope they survive.
 
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intotheair
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:35 am

This was posted elsewhere, but UA has detailed further international and domestic cuts by route.

https://hub.united.com/2020-03-17-unite ... 16655.html
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AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
jagraham
Posts: 1098
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:22 pm

intotheair wrote:
This was posted elsewhere, but UA has detailed further international and domestic cuts by route.

https://hub.united.com/2020-03-17-unite ... 16655.html


The text of the letter is worse than the cuts. From the letter included in the above United release:

We took early, aggressive action because we have been determined to do everything possible to avoid painful steps that affect your paycheck. But, based on the severity of the situation, that no longer appears realistic.

This weekend, we began conversations with our union leadership about how to reduce our payroll expense in a way that minimizes what we know will be painful for all of us. Earlier this evening, we convened a call with Corporate Officers to update them on the severity of the situation and let them know we will be cutting their salary by 50%.

Let us be clear: these are not the only next steps. Tomorrow, we will announce an approximately 50% cut in capacity for April and May. We also now expect these deep cuts to extend into the summer travel period. Even with those cuts, we're expecting load factors to drop into the 20-30% range -- and that's if things don't get worse.

Together, we're facing an unprecedented challenge. When medical experts say that our health and safety depends on people staying home and practicing social distancing, it's nearly impossible to run a business whose shared purpose is "Connecting people. Uniting the world."
 
afcjets
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:28 pm

enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:

I believe you, I just don't think it's intentional. This is an extreme and unprecedented situation we're in right now and you're doing it online. If you could actually get a reservation agent on the phone, they would likely waive it. If not, ask a supervisor. I bet they will say yes, or say give it a few more days.

Perhaps, but you can't get a supervisor. Why not cancel it then and let the software work? The only reason not to is to conserve cash. Execs at airlines that aren't doing this are telling me that is why other airlines are doing it.

I don't think that's the only reason if a reason at all at Delta. Zeroing out flights is always the first step in a cancellation due to a schedule change. During a normal schedule change, airlines intend to cancel a flight indefinitely (or perhaps seasonally). In this situation, Delta has no idea what their future schedule will look like several months (or perhaps even several weeks) out and where they already have advance bookings. A schedule change automatically triggers reacommodation by the reservations system and emails are sent notifying passengers of their new flights. Why do that now for every potentially canceled flight for the next year, especially when they are likely to experience another if not several more schedule changes for those booked way out. Of course do it for departures in the immediate near term where the cancellation is 100 percent certain and the re-accommodation flight is near 100 percent or reasonably certain. Just prevent future bookings by zeroing it out now and push them onto other flights. If those other flights fill up, Delta might reconsider the zeroed out flights and the existing bookings are in tact.
 
alo2yyz
Posts: 71
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:53 pm

enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:
enilria wrote:
Even so, the % is better if they force you to change it yourself, particularly if you booked before 3/1.


If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


DL sorted me out over social media DM. They told me the customer-facing computer system isn't setup to waive change fees for certain ticket types.
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 10242
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:34 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
enilria wrote:
afcjets wrote:

If Delta cancels 40% of their schedule and the President and CDC are telling you to cancel all non-essential travel, I don't think Delta (or any airline) is going to try and charge fraudulent change fees for those who booked before 3/1. I don't think they would do that even if this wasn't a global pandemic. Even before this Delta was the only airline I know of that would waive the change fee on a nonrefundable ticket with a doctor's note.

I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


DL sorted me out over social media DM. They told me the customer-facing computer system isn't setup to waive change fees for certain ticket types.

That's half true. If they cancelled the flight like the are legally bound to when you don't operate the flight their automation would offer a rebooking option and if you refuse it, a refund. They don't want that to happen, so they don't cancel. The change fee thing may be true, but that has nothing to do with not canceling flights.
AirFiero wrote:
spinotter wrote:
AirFiero wrote:


If you have seen any of my previous posts, you will know that I advocate far more, but it seems that the human race is bent on self-destruction. No one would listen to the least radical of my ideas. And honestly, I begin to believe that we deserve our fate; the rest of life does not, it is true, but hey! fire those jets away, connect Bangalore nonstop to Omaha, fly more and more, every one of 9 billion Homo sapiens.


I believe your worries are WAY overblown. We will just have to disagree. But your point of view is a bit out of place here. Air travel isn’t going away.

What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

Yet there are users on here are global warming advocate , yet desperately NEED a PTV on their 60-minute flight from Atlanta to Florida. If somebody's going to preach to me about silly changes I should make to my lifestyle, they should shut their mouths up until they've made simple changes to their (e.g. going without TV for 60-minutes; the collective energy consumption is significant). Heck, how many global warming advocates can't make it through one day without logging into social media to see how Kylie Jenner spent hers?


Or using their electric powered devices to preach to us about our excesses destroying the planet.


The thing that contributes most to Global Warming: overpopulation.

If youre an advocate to curb global warming yet pop out more than two kids, youre a giant hypocrite.


Btw, for the people that think the earth is overpopulated, they got their wish... (sadly)
 
bnatraveler
Posts: 389
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:55 am

Finally seeing Delta start canceling flights tonight going forward. BNA-ATL is down to about 3 flights tomorrow.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6164
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:44 am

enilria wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
enilria wrote:
I can see you haven't tried to actually rebook a ticket. That's exactly what is happening. I keep trying every day to get out of a trip on a flight they already announced won't operate, but isn't technically cancelled. It is trying to charge me a change fee, plus it forces me to rebook and god knows when I will be able to move this to.


DL sorted me out over social media DM. They told me the customer-facing computer system isn't setup to waive change fees for certain ticket types.

That's half true. If they cancelled the flight like the are legally bound to when you don't operate the flight their automation would offer a rebooking option and if you refuse it, a refund. They don't want that to happen, so they don't cancel. The change fee thing may be true, but that has nothing to do with not canceling flights.
AirFiero wrote:
spinotter wrote:

If you have seen any of my previous posts, you will know that I advocate far more, but it seems that the human race is bent on self-destruction. No one would listen to the least radical of my ideas. And honestly, I begin to believe that we deserve our fate; the rest of life does not, it is true, but hey! fire those jets away, connect Bangalore nonstop to Omaha, fly more and more, every one of 9 billion Homo sapiens.


I believe your worries are WAY overblown. We will just have to disagree. But your point of view is a bit out of place here. Air travel isn’t going away.

What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

Or using their electric powered devices to preach to us about our excesses destroying the planet.


The thing that contributes most to Global Warming: overpopulation.

If youre an advocate to curb global warming yet pop out more than two kids, youre a giant hypocrite.


Btw, for the people that think the earth is overpopulated, they got their wish... (sadly)


The ideal situation isnt for people to be culled or killed off. Its for people to reproduce less.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
AirFiero
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:46 am

What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.


Is that supposed to be a serious argument? :roll:
 
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enilria
Topic Author
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:52 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
enilria wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:

DL sorted me out over social media DM. They told me the customer-facing computer system isn't setup to waive change fees for certain ticket types.

That's half true. If they cancelled the flight like the are legally bound to when you don't operate the flight their automation would offer a rebooking option and if you refuse it, a refund. They don't want that to happen, so they don't cancel. The change fee thing may be true, but that has nothing to do with not canceling flights.
AirFiero wrote:

I believe your worries are WAY overblown. We will just have to disagree. But your point of view is a bit out of place here. Air travel isn’t going away.

What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

The thing that contributes most to Global Warming: overpopulation.

If youre an advocate to curb global warming yet pop out more than two kids, youre a giant hypocrite.


Btw, for the people that think the earth is overpopulated, they got their wish... (sadly)


The ideal situation isnt for people to be culled or killed off. Its for people to reproduce less.

It all turns out the same...
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 10242
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:53 pm

AirFiero wrote:
What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.


Is that supposed to be a serious argument? :roll:

No. I was highly sarcastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVDmXvXcbk
 
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spinotter
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:21 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
enilria wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:

DL sorted me out over social media DM. They told me the customer-facing computer system isn't setup to waive change fees for certain ticket types.

That's half true. If they cancelled the flight like the are legally bound to when you don't operate the flight their automation would offer a rebooking option and if you refuse it, a refund. They don't want that to happen, so they don't cancel. The change fee thing may be true, but that has nothing to do with not canceling flights.
AirFiero wrote:

I believe your worries are WAY overblown. We will just have to disagree. But your point of view is a bit out of place here. Air travel isn’t going away.

What about blimps filled with hydrogen. That seems safe.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

The thing that contributes most to Global Warming: overpopulation.

If youre an advocate to curb global warming yet pop out more than two kids, youre a giant hypocrite.


Btw, for the people that think the earth is overpopulated, they got their wish... (sadly)


The ideal situation isnt for people to be culled or killed off. Its for people to reproduce less.


Evil Darwinist.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4419
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:10 am

tphuang wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Agreed.

The health crisis will calm down in a couple of months if we can follow the advice of our health leaders and suck it up for the next 4 weeks. The financial crisis will be with us for over a year at least.


Perhaps. Perhaps not. Let’s not forget the underlying fundamentals of the economy were sound, perhaps even strong, leading into this, unlike the Great Recession of 2008-2009.


If this is how AS management is looking at this crisis, AS will be in a world of trouble.


Trust me, AS is evaluating every little thing right now. They will be just fine. All the airlines are in this exact predicament
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:44 am

Folks, this is an emotional situation. Please post on topic. It doesn't matter how strongly you want to advocate an off topic subject, if it isn't on topic, post elsewhere.
Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1548
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Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:39 am

lightsaber wrote:
Folks, this is an emotional situation. Please post on topic. It doesn't matter how strongly you want to advocate an off topic subject, if it isn't on topic, post elsewhere.
Lightsaber


Mr. Moderator, with all due respect, given that most aviation is shut down until who knows when we either need something more to talk about or this site will resemble a graveyard at midnight. Just sayin’
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2808
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:10 pm

I bet enrilia is busy putting together today’s OAG report. Me thinks the changes in this thread will pale in comparison to what’s coming today.

PS: enilria an advanced thank you for today’s OAG.
 
Justapax
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:31 am

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:13 pm

[quote="PS: enilria an advanced thank you for today’s OAG.[/quote]
+1. A huge thank you.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5173
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:21 pm

same here, a giant thanks for enilria.
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: OAG Changes 3/15/2020: ARMAGEDDON + AS Exits BWI-LAX,RNO-SJC;UA Suspends SMX

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:33 pm

AirFiero wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Folks, this is an emotional situation. Please post on topic. It doesn't matter how strongly you want to advocate an off topic subject, if it isn't on topic, post elsewhere.
Lightsaber


Mr. Moderator, with all due respect, given that most aviation is shut down until who knows when we either need something more to talk about or this site will resemble a graveyard at midnight. Just sayin’


Basically any topic not related to the virus is irrelevant given this has never happened in our lifetimes. Speculation threads about airline X flying to XXX or ordering X aircraft make no sense. No one knows what will happen. There are other things to do besides commenting here.

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