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samuelmanuel
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COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:22 pm

Will cargo airlines increase capacity to make up for all the lost belly cargo due to passenger flight cancillations?
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
LDRA
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:36 pm

It is not long term demand. How about just fly passenger aircraft with belly cargo only?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:38 pm

LDRA wrote:
It is not long term demand. How about just fly passenger aircraft with belly cargo only?


That would be very inefficient, both in terms of fuel and pilot hours used per unit of capacity.

Why does anybody think there's a shortage of freight capacity?
 
smartplane
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:41 pm

samuelmanuel wrote:
Will cargo airlines increase capacity to make up for all the lost belly cargo due to passenger flight cancillations?

Passenger airlines contracted to carry belly cargo are looking at their contracts and solutions to deliver, including exit clauses. Freight customers who buy belly space on demand, will be desperate to find delivery solutions.

There will be a massive shake up post all the disruption, including reviews of contract wording, IATA standards, whether passenger airlines will only sell space spot (no forward commitments), and probably increased freight only operations.
 
trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:43 pm

where there's demand there will be supply
Cathay Pacific (CX, Hong Kong Int'l) has confirmed it is using A330-300s, operated by its subsidiary Cathay Dragon (KA, Hong Kong Int'l), to run cargo routes between Hong Kong Int'l and Chinese gateways in light of a recent surge in demand for freight to and from the mainland.

According to Cargo Facts, the airline is using Cathay Dragon's A330-300s on a daily route to Beijing Capital and on 3x weekly services to each of Shanghai Pudong and Xiamen. No passengers are transported on these services as the airline only utilises bellyhold capacity to carry freight.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -cargo-ops
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:43 pm

CX now use LD and KA aircraft to operate cargo flight
 
marcelh
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LDRA wrote:
It is not long term demand. How about just fly passenger aircraft with belly cargo only?


That would be very inefficient, both in terms of fuel and pilot hours used per unit of capacity.

Why does anybody think there's a shortage of freight capacity?

I can think that some essential cargo will be flown with passenger aircraft.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:46 pm

trex8 wrote:
where there's demand there will be supply
Cathay Pacific (CX, Hong Kong Int'l) has confirmed it is using A330-300s, operated by its subsidiary Cathay Dragon (KA, Hong Kong Int'l), to run cargo routes between Hong Kong Int'l and Chinese gateways in light of a recent surge in demand for freight to and from the mainland.

According to Cargo Facts, the airline is using Cathay Dragon's A330-300s on a daily route to Beijing Capital and on 3x weekly services to each of Shanghai Pudong and Xiamen. No passengers are transported on these services as the airline only utilises bellyhold capacity to carry freight.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -cargo-ops


Not only to China but also to Japan (eg:KA380/381)
They also operate extra cargo flights by LD
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:50 pm

samuelmanuel wrote:
Will cargo airlines increase capacity to make up for all the lost belly cargo due to passenger flight cancillations?

Yes - UPS is adding MD-11 segments to/from HKG. The next few months could be a boon for cargo operators at the expense of the pax carriers.
 
LDRA
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:02 pm

Fuel is so cheap, it might be more economical to fly older aircraft, as engine overhaul cost would be lower
 
Experimental
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:15 pm

During the SARS outbreak BA kept flying "empty" passenger 744s LHR-HKG because of how full the holds were. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar situation on some routes.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:21 pm

Experimental wrote:
During the SARS outbreak BA kept flying "empty" passenger 744s LHR-HKG because of how full the holds were. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar situation on some routes.


or they kept them flying due to slot rules.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:02 pm

The fresh fish, a lot of it salmon from Northern Europe to Asia is still getting moved. A big part traveled in the belly of Finnair flights. So they are either running freighters or they fly freight without passengers. I have heard that there were flights cargo only on passenger frames.
Fish is heavy, so a full belly load could perhaps use all the payload the frame offers on long distance.

Qantas used their A330 to move cargo in Australia during the night
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:04 pm

On TATL a 777 or A330 with limited passengers (essentially those flying home) so few bags, but the rest of the hold crammed with freight would seem reasonable, and a way for BA/AA to keep LHR to JFK and maybe a few other routes open when the ban kicks in.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Why does anybody think there's a shortage of freight capacity?

Because rates are shooting up.

CALMSP wrote:
or they kept them flying due to slot rules.

I don't believe LHR slots are assigned to specific routes. If BA chose to fly all the way to HKG, it's because it was the best of multiple options, such as flying a lot closer to "home," parking the aircraft a few hours before heading back and selling some tickets along the way. There was a time when United operated a LHR-BRU tag-on service on a 767 in order to occupy a couple of slots.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:33 pm

Korean Air is also doing belly cargo-only flights with pax aircraft.

I'd like to know how much the max payload is though.
 
77H
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LDRA wrote:
It is not long term demand. How about just fly passenger aircraft with belly cargo only?


That would be very inefficient, both in terms of fuel and pilot hours used per unit of capacity.

Why does anybody think there's a shortage of freight capacity?


Except some carriers have already started utilizing their pax planes as freighters. While it may be inefficient and seemingly uneconomical, I have read several articles stating rates in certain markets have as much as quadrupled due to the loss of capacity from pre-Corona levels.

In the US, I’ve heard rates to certain Asia destinations were in the $9.00/kg range. Rates to Europe will follow as airlines draw down capacity in response to POTUS’ proclamation.

Belly capacity is a vital part of the air freight industry. There is no way the integrators and pax carrier’s dedicated cargo divisions can absorb all the tonnage the belly carriers were moving.

77H
 
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UPlog
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:27 am

Cargo demand has picked up fast especially out of Asia as China production ramps up. Reported rates have climbed 300% on some lanes. I saw a note from USPS last week that it has several weeks worth of backlog mail to some international markets and was considering stopping the acceptance of parcels as it cant move them.
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trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:39 am

ITSTours wrote:
Korean Air is also doing belly cargo-only flights with pax aircraft.

I'd like to know how much the max payload is though.


98 x125 in pallet, 60 in high- 735000in3 =12m3
assume 200kg/m3=2400kg/pallet (Icao says average is 161 but 200 is easier math)
A333/772 has 10 pallets, A359/789 11 pallets, 77W 14 pallets

24000kg in the A333/772, 26400 in the A359/789, 33600 in 77W
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:26 am

I was once told by a Cargo Director at United, If an airplane flew a full Belly load of freight? the passengers were pure profit, but along for the ride because the freight was paying the bills. For many years United was the 3rd largest freight hauler in the USA behind FEDEX and UPS, and didn't have any dedicated freighters. I haven't read Air Transport world Magazine since I retired so it would be good to know what they're doing these days.
 
77H
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:29 am

trex8 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
Korean Air is also doing belly cargo-only flights with pax aircraft.

I'd like to know how much the max payload is though.


98 x125 in pallet, 60 in high- 735000in3 =12m3
assume 200kg/m3=2400kg/pallet (Icao says average is 161 but 200 is easier math)
A333/772 has 10 pallets, A359/789 11 pallets, 77W 14 pallets

24000kg in the A333/772, 26400 in the A359/789, 33600 in 77W


To give a specific example, last year in March UA ferried a 77A coming off maintenance in HKG over HNL before continuing on to DEN. The cargo team in HNL was able to load 36,955 kgs of freight. There was 45,810 kgs originally planned for the flight but load planning cut some pallets due to balance, though there was payload enough to take all 45,810 kgs.

Bear in mind this was an original A model 777-200 on a 6 hr segment to DEN. A HGW 333, 339, 77E, 788/9/X, 359/J would have considerably higher payload performance.

77H
 
OKCDCA
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:36 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The fresh fish, a lot of it salmon from Northern Europe to Asia is still getting moved. A big part traveled in the belly of Finnair flights. So they are either running freighters or they fly freight without passengers. I have heard that there were flights cargo only on passenger frames.
Fish is heavy, so a full belly load could perhaps use all the payload the frame offers on long distance.

Qantas used their A330 to move cargo in Australia during the night

Not knowing how union contracts work around the world, do airlines have to fully staff these flights with FA's if they're running with no passengers? Since these are not technically freighters, I'm guessing the local unions will have fit if they are being used for "revenue service" and not being fully staffed.
 
trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:39 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I was once told by a Cargo Director at United, If an airplane flew a full Belly load of freight? the passengers were pure profit, but along for the ride because the freight was paying the bills. For many years United was the 3rd largest freight hauler in the USA behind FEDEX and UPS, and didn't have any dedicated freighters. I haven't read Air Transport world Magazine since I retired so it would be good to know what they're doing these days.


Looking at a paper edition Air Cargo News from early this year
For 2018, largest cargo carriers by FTK
Fedex 17499
Emirates 12713
Qatar 12695
UPS 12459
Cathay 11284
Korean 7839
Lufthansa 7394
Cargolux 7322
Air China 7051
China Southern 6597
Singapore 6491
Turkish 5890
China Air 5804
AirBridge 5511
All Nippon 4587
Atlas 4553
United 4455
British 4276
Asiana 4067
Polar 4038
American 3817
Air France 3673
KLM 3604
Eva 3580
Etihad 3471

by tonnes
Fedex 7565
UPs 4755
Emirates 2609
Qatar 2262
Cathay 1828
Korean 1574
China Air 1512
Air China 1448
China Southern 1383
Turkish 1369
All Nippon 1258
Singapore 1167
Atlas 1115
Lufthansa 977
Asiana 969
Cargolux 850
Latam Group 831
Kalitta 828
Polar 826
Japan 754
China Eastern 730
AirBridge 724
Thai 669
Eva 648
Last edited by trex8 on Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
77H
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:40 am

strfyr51 wrote:
I was once told by a Cargo Director at United, If an airplane flew a full Belly load of freight? the passengers were pure profit, but along for the ride because the freight was paying the bills. For many years United was the 3rd largest freight hauler in the USA behind FEDEX and UPS, and didn't have any dedicated freighters. I haven't read Air Transport world Magazine since I retired so it would be good to know what they're doing these days.


According to Statista, UA was 4th in terms of cargo revenue in 2018 behind FX, 5X and 5Y (Atlas) with AA being 5th in the domestic market. The page I found does not list FTK/Ms

UA was the 17th largest air cargo carrier in the world, up 3 positions in terms of FTK/Ms in 2018.

77H
 
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zeke
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:50 am

77H wrote:

According to Statista, UA was 4th in terms of cargo revenue in 2018 behind FX, 5X and 5Y (Atlas) with AA being 5th in the domestic market. The page I found does not list FTK/Ms

UA was the 17th largest air cargo carrier in the world, up 3 positions in terms of FTK/Ms in 2018.

77H


Something is not correct with your post.

UA are not in the top 25 for international, domestic, or total freight flown. They are ranked 17th in international FTKs, 13th in domestic FTKs, and overall 17th in combined international and domestic FTKs.

Source page 23 and 24 of IATA WATS 2019 https://www.iata.org/contentassets/a686 ... diakit.pdf
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zeke
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:55 am

OKCDCA wrote:
Not knowing how union contracts work around the world, do airlines have to fully staff these flights with FA's if they're running with no passengers? Since these are not technically freighters, I'm guessing the local unions will have fit if they are being used for "revenue service" and not being fully staffed.


Historically CX used to operate passenger A330s and 772 on freight services, these were typically wet leased flights to DHL. Under the wet lease terms we were able to take a few passengers so cabin crew were onboard. I have flown A330s to cover for LD A306, that had no cabin crew, just freight below the floor.
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Antaras
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:10 am

I think that carriers will operate flights with full belly but no passenger.
Cathay confirmed that it uses Dragon's pax-A333 for cargo-only service. Vietnam Airlines seems operating 78X also for cargo-only missions. With carriers with no F-airframes, belly-capacity is the only thing can help them survive through this Covid-19 pandemic. Hopes that all-pax carriers such as VN will acquire freighters in the future....
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77H
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:28 am

zeke wrote:
77H wrote:

According to Statista, UA was 4th in terms of cargo revenue in 2018 behind FX, 5X and 5Y (Atlas) with AA being 5th in the domestic market. The page I found does not list FTK/Ms

UA was the 17th largest air cargo carrier in the world, up 3 positions in terms of FTK/Ms in 2018.

77H


Something is not correct with your post.

UA are not in the top 25 for international, domestic, or total freight flown. They are ranked 17th in international FTKs, 13th in domestic FTKs, and overall 17th in combined international and domestic FTKs.

Source page 23 and 24 of IATA WATS 2019 https://www.iata.org/contentassets/a686 ... diakit.pdf


Please re-read my post again. In 2018 UA was 4th domestically in terms of REVENUE.

Additionally, my second paragraph states 17th in the world, by FTKs which would encompass the domestic and international market.

Not once did I mention total freight flown, domestic FTKs or International FTKs as independent metrics. I literally stated in my original post that the source I pulled from did not list FTKs...

Similar to asking, what is the largest airline or airport in any given country, or the world, the answer will likely vary depending on what metric you are using. I very clearly defined the metric being used in the sources I pulled from.

77H
 
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zeke
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:03 am

77H wrote:

Please re-read my post again. In 2018 UA was 4th domestically in terms of REVENUE.

Additionally, my second paragraph states 17th in the world, by FTKs which would encompass the domestic and international market.

Not once did I mention total freight flown, domestic FTKs or International FTKs as independent metrics. I literally stated in my original post that the source I pulled from did not list FTKs...

Similar to asking, what is the largest airline or airport in any given country, or the world, the answer will likely vary depending on what metric you are using. I very clearly defined the metric being used in the sources I pulled from.

77H


Still does not change the fact that Southwest and American both take more freight tonnage and do more FTKs than United. See the IATA link I provided.

You didn't provide a source. What you said is about as useful as saying wiki, on the internet, or in the newspaper. Sources are provided so people can read and verify what you have said, all Statista does is makes pretty pictures of other peoples data, they do not actually collate or publish it.

A revenue figure is also useless unless you can cite the cost as well, revenue does not translate to yield.
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raylee67
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:53 pm

Besides CX/KA operating cargo flights with pax aircraft, Korean is also operating empty passenger aircraft to Qingdao and Ho Chi Minh to provide cargo capacity.

Air Cargo demand has not dropped a lot but the supply has plummeted due to loss of passenger flights. Hong Kong post service no longer provide air mail service to countries such as Saudi Arabia because there is no flights. The additional cargo flights by pax aircraft will at least provide some relief for the airlines, although not as nearly enough.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:09 pm

Delta as well
https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/d ... -covid-19/
Delta Cargo, the airfreight division of Delta Air Lines, has launched a charter operation to provide “safe and reliable transportation of customers’ goods” during the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

The company’s cargo arm will facilitate the chartering of any Delta mainline aircraft to and from participating US airports.
 
HPRamper
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:54 pm

FX has indeed halted MD11 retirements as international cargo, especially to Asia and intra-Asia, as passenger bellies have become unavailable for customers. A lot of that freight has been pushed to the integrators.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:13 pm

77H wrote:

In the US, I’ve heard rates to certain Asia destinations were in the $9.00/kg range. Rates to Europe will follow as airlines draw down capacity in response to POTUS’ proclamation.


I'm hearing some routes from London are yielding rates up to €10/kg. Usual capacity has been decimated and at those rates 15 tonnes of hold cargo would make a profitable flight even without passengers.
 
JBoy
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:15 pm

Cargo demand has picked up fast especially out of Asia as China production ramps up. Reported rates have climbed 300% on some lanes. I saw a note from USPS last week that it has several weeks worth of backlog mail to some international markets and was considering stopping the acceptance of parcels as it cant move them.

I agree, the company I work for stated our air freight rates from the US midwest to Europe have gone up 345%.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:17 pm

Lufthansa's CEO said today that they are "running scenarios where their passenger 747 fleet gets used as pure freighters" and are "seeking to expand LH cargo's fleet". The 747-8i is capable of carrying 60+ tons of cargo and it is implied that it is the most efficient model LH has in the fleet for this purpose. Their 747 fleet would be (mostly) grounded otherwise.

Source in German: https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/corona-l ... -frachter/
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:38 pm

LDRA wrote:
Fuel is so cheap, it might be more economical to fly older aircraft, as engine overhaul cost would be lower


Engine overhaul costs? I doubt it. It doesn't cost any less to overhaul an older Hi Bypass Turbofan than a new one. It all depends on parts availability and whether the shop can machine and refurbish the major sub-assemblies. and or accessories.
 
xwb777
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:32 pm

Etihad will be increasing its cargo operations

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2141DN
 
ual763
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Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:29 pm

With AAL now announcing cargo only flights to help weather through the current crisis, does anyone think it is possible that we may see any of the majors return to a cargo-only sub fleet in the future? I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.

Presumably, the cargo operations of Cathay, Lufthansa, Korean, etc. are the only units turning a profit at this trying time.
Last edited by SQ22 on Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updatef after merging threads
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alasizon
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:33 pm

Not in the conventional sense. Now that being said, if a regional carrier could figure out a way to operate cargo RJs, I could see the majors being willing to sell space on those to Amazon/FDX/UPS and increase their mail haulage.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:38 pm

ual763 wrote:
I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.


Losing money. It ended some twenty years ago, before 9/11 but when traffic was already going down.
 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:42 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.


Losing money. It ended some twenty years ago, before 9/11 but when traffic was already going down.


I wonder if a sizable modern sub-fleet of 767F or 777F aircraft would be profitable in today’s market?
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Crzn33k
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:45 pm

Alaska has all cargo 737-700s
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:45 pm

Also you have things like the 77W able to carry more cargo than say the 744 over the longer distances.
That means, particularly with tidal traffic on certain routes, this made more sense.

EK for example has a huge cargo operation, despite having a cargo fleet this isn't most of the traffic.
 
gmcc
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:47 pm

Not really considered a major by most and really a very unique case but AS current has a fleet of 3 737-700 freighters and was looking to add a 737-800 before the current situation.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:48 pm

ual763 wrote:
I wonder if a sizable modern sub-fleet of 767F or 777F aircraft would be profitable in today’s market?


Not worth trying for such airlines. Even Lufthansa Cargo is downsizing. Better sub-contract it to an ACMI-operator, if you really need, such as Atlas or else, than try on your own.
 
N649DL
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:48 pm

AA historically has done a lot of business by stocking planes with cargo, especially out of MIA. They're probably the best equipped to do so at this point.

As someone already mentioned, UA had a few "Worldwide Cargo" D10s back in the late 1990s, so you never know. I'm not sure why it would be losing money as they also have a robust cargo operation.
 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:49 pm

With the impending retirement of passenger 767s, the majors would just have to convert them to a freighter. Boom, there’s the cargo airline. No new aircraft acquisition required.
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N649DL
Posts: 928
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:51 pm

ual763 wrote:
With the impending retirement of passenger 767s, the majors would just have to convert them to freighter ops. Boom, there’s the cargo airline. No new aircraft acquisition required.


Retirements? I thought the UA and DL 763s are only being temporarily parked. AA is the one who wants them out entirely.
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:55 pm

N649DL wrote:
ual763 wrote:
With the impending retirement of passenger 767s, the majors would just have to convert them to freighter ops. Boom, there’s the cargo airline. No new aircraft acquisition required.


Retirements? I thought the UA and DL 763s are only being temporarily parked. AA is the one who wants them out entirely.


Delta, I believe used the term “retiring” in reference to some of their 767s, in their press release. But I could be wrong And, yes, AA is definitely retiring them. The question wasn’t only geared towards United, rather all of the major pax airlines. And even if they do get parked, they will inevitably be retiring in the not-so-distant future.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
alasizon
Posts: 2578
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:35 am

ual763 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
ual763 wrote:
With the impending retirement of passenger 767s, the majors would just have to convert them to freighter ops. Boom, there’s the cargo airline. No new aircraft acquisition required.


Retirements? I thought the UA and DL 763s are only being temporarily parked. AA is the one who wants them out entirely.


Delta, I believe used the term “retiring” in reference to some of their 767s, in their press release. But I could be wrong And, yes, AA is definitely retiring them. The question wasn’t only geared towards United, rather all of the major pax airlines. And even if they do get parked, they will inevitably be retiring in the not-so-distant future.


Also worth noting that the AA 763s are already committed to ATSG.
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