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rajincajun01
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:42 am

Sun Country begins freighter flights next month. Receiving a fleet of 10 Boeing 737-800BCF.
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ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:48 am

alasizon wrote:
ual763 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Retirements? I thought the UA and DL 763s are only being temporarily parked. AA is the one who wants them out entirely.


Delta, I believe used the term “retiring” in reference to some of their 767s, in their press release. But I could be wrong And, yes, AA is definitely retiring them. The question wasn’t only geared towards United, rather all of the major pax airlines. And even if they do get parked, they will inevitably be retiring in the not-so-distant future.


Also worth noting that the AA 763s are already committed to ATSG.

Ahh, didn’t know that. I still think it is a viable option though for airlines in times like these. Do you know if their 757s are also committed anywhere?
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alasizon
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:23 am

ual763 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
ual763 wrote:

Delta, I believe used the term “retiring” in reference to some of their 767s, in their press release. But I could be wrong And, yes, AA is definitely retiring them. The question wasn’t only geared towards United, rather all of the major pax airlines. And even if they do get parked, they will inevitably be retiring in the not-so-distant future.


Also worth noting that the AA 763s are already committed to ATSG.

Ahh, didn’t know that. I still think it is a viable option though for airlines in times like these. Do you know if their 757s are also committed anywhere?


The LUS birds are getting up there in cycles and hours but I don't believe are committed to anyone. FDX & UPS have been sourcing 757s as they need them as opposed to committing on certain frames. The LAA birds weren't even planned to be retired until at least 2023 so I highly doubt those are committed to anyone.
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ojjunior
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:48 am

ual763 wrote:
With AAL now announcing cargo only flights to help weather through the current crisis, does anyone think it is possible that we may see any of the majors return to a cargo-only sub fleet in the future? I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.

Presumably, the cargo operations of Cathay, Lufthansa, Korean, etc. are the only units turning a profit at this trying time.


IMHO UA's Cargo DC-10 was the most beautiful D10 out there ever.

 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:49 am

ojjunior wrote:
ual763 wrote:
With AAL now announcing cargo only flights to help weather through the current crisis, does anyone think it is possible that we may see any of the majors return to a cargo-only sub fleet in the future? I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.

Presumably, the cargo operations of Cathay, Lufthansa, Korean, etc. are the only units turning a profit at this trying time.


IMHO UA's Cargo DC-10 was the most beautiful D10 out there ever.



It was a beautiful bird!
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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sunking737
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:29 am

rajincajun01 wrote:
Sun Country begins freighter flights next month. Receiving a fleet of 10 Boeing 737-800BCF.


They are being mod in China. I don't think they will get any before mid to late summer. Last i heard all work had stopped due to the virus.
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Moosefire
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:10 am

These are short term programs to take advantage of otherwise idle fleets at a time when there is an overall global freight backlog. The US3 do not have the cost structures or assets to run a truly competitive pure freight network, especially at the cost of their (historically) profitable pax operations.
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:42 am

There may be a short term benefit to having a few pure cargo aircraft, but long term, not really. From a US perspective the integrators and Kalitta/Atlas/ABX specialize in it and really take the profitability out of a freighter fleet. The US3 do plenty in the bellies, but there is a difference between filling the belly of a 777 and filling the belly and topside.

I don’t think most people truly appreciate how much you can get onto a widebody freighter. There just simply isn’t that much demand for the US3 to each be running 10-15 jets around the world with cargo. DL didn’t just get rid of pure freighter Ops because the jets were old. The return just isn’t there compared to passengers.
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:46 am

alasizon wrote:
Not in the conventional sense. Now that being said, if a regional carrier could figure out a way to operate cargo RJs, I could see the majors being willing to sell space on those to Amazon/FDX/UPS and increase their mail haulage.

5X and FX are only going to buy space domestically if it is dedicated to them. Right now that is already a thing. I know IFL runs dedicated to both carriers to SDF and MEM.

There are inefficiencies with that though. They don’t take containers so you’re loose loading everything which is time consuming on both the load and unload. And the cost is high unless you can really fill it. RJs on the cargo side have the same cost issues they have on the pax side.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
alasizon
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:05 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Not in the conventional sense. Now that being said, if a regional carrier could figure out a way to operate cargo RJs, I could see the majors being willing to sell space on those to Amazon/FDX/UPS and increase their mail haulage.

5X and FX are only going to buy space domestically if it is dedicated to them. Right now that is already a thing. I know IFL runs dedicated to both carriers to SDF and MEM.

There are inefficiencies with that though. They don’t take containers so you’re loose loading everything which is time consuming on both the load and unload. And the cost is high unless you can really fill it. RJs on the cargo side have the same cost issues they have on the pax side.


I could see UPS and FedEx both being willing to buy bulk loaded space in what is currently regional markets (think PHX-MRY, DFW-FAR) where it gives them the edge on 2-day shipping and cuts down on some of the inter-region trucking in order to free up more trucks for the local and cross-country demand. I'm not an expert at freight economics by any means but if you offer 12k payload worth of space, assume Amazon 5X and FX all commit to 4k each, even though it's not fully dedicated I could see them taking it. Then whatever extra space and payload you have goes to US Mail.

The way I see it requires a network of cargo RJs that are also tied in to the rest of the airline enabling mass connections. Personally I see it as being more down 5X and Amazon's line than FX but there are benefits all the way around.
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aeromoe
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:07 am

Crzn33k wrote:
Alaska has all cargo 737-700s


Of course, the remote Alaskan communities need that cargo airlift...could be considered their "lifeblood."
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NameOmitted
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:51 am

aeromoe wrote:
Crzn33k wrote:
Alaska has all cargo 737-700s


Of course, the remote Alaskan communities need that cargo airlift...could be considered their "lifeblood."


Coming and going. AS runs a lot of fish out of Alaska, but they might not work as well this year. The canneries rely on bunkhouses of outsiders to operate, and they may not work with people concerned about the coronavirus.
 
UA444
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:57 am

ojjunior wrote:
ual763 wrote:
With AAL now announcing cargo only flights to help weather through the current crisis, does anyone think it is possible that we may see any of the majors return to a cargo-only sub fleet in the future? I remember seeing the United Cargo DC-10s back in the day and was always mesmerized as to why they got rid of them.

Presumably, the cargo operations of Cathay, Lufthansa, Korean, etc. are the only units turning a profit at this trying time.


IMHO UA's Cargo DC-10 was the most beautiful D10 out there ever.


One of those DC-10s is still sitting in ROW with the battleship livery.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:58 am

I would suggest that UPS, FedEx, DHL, other companies that offer door to door freight services took away a lot of the former major airline's dedicated cargo divisions and fleets. Now most airlines are contracted by selected specialists freight expediting companies, government postal services, even get overflow from UPS/FedEx/DHL via the belly space on pax flights.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:52 am

The airlines will not buy cargo only fleets again. There are big capable wide body frames sitting around with every major airline. Those frames are quite capable freighters.
Even if the coronavirus will be around for a year, that is short term compared to the lifetime of a frame. After the coronavirus belly freight will rule again.
 
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HALtheAI
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:25 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21701K
American Airlines (AAL.O) said on Thursday it would use some passenger jets to move cargo between the United States and Europe, its first scheduled cargo-only flights since 1984 when it retired the last of its 747 freighters.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:19 pm

HALtheAI wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-airlines/strings-attached-governments-offer-financial-lifelines-to-airlines-at-a-price-idUSKBN21701K
American Airlines (AAL.O) said on Thursday it would use some passenger jets to move cargo between the United States and Europe, its first scheduled cargo-only flights since 1984 when it retired the last of its 747 freighters.


Curious what plane they’re going to use, probably 777’s?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:22 pm

I think the only option for any US3 to have a freighter would be the conversion of the 738's to freighters. This would allow the fleet to stay common. However, with more and more domestic widebody flying (before all this grounding going on) there is more capacity available throughout the US. The big win I think would be the likes of MTY/GDL/BJX/MEX, PTY, etc. where wide body flights are not scheduled.
 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:48 pm

I could also see some of the 737s being converted, or even some aging 757s. As far as infrastructure, correct me if I’m wrong, but most of the majors still operate lots of cargo dedicated facilities/equipment correct? I see buildings specifically for United/American/Delta cargo quite frequently at major airports. Presumably, they already have most of the infrastructure needed for a dedicated cargo fleet. Of course, there will always be some investment needed, but considering that all 3 of the legacies have sizable 757/767/738 fleets due for retirement in the near to short term, that investment would me minimal compared to buying new freighters. Would be solely conversions, and hey already have crew trained on the fleet. They would then have the economy of scale advantage to be reasonably competitive. Again, just a thought, but I really think it could work if done properly.

While they most likely couldn’t pull in what FX or UP does, it surely would bring in more than just scrapping them, or selling them to some 3rd rate company.
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KarlB737
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:20 pm

Courtesy: Aviation Pros

Airlines Use Empty Passenger Jets to Ease the Cargo Crunch

https://www.aviationpros.com/airlines/news/21129974/airlines-use-empty-passenger-jets-to-ease-the-cargo-crunch
 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:22 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
Courtesy: Aviation Pros

Airlines Use Empty Passenger Jets to Ease the Cargo Crunch

https://www.aviationpros.com/airlines/news/21129974/airlines-use-empty-passenger-jets-to-ease-the-cargo-crunch


Do we know if these cargo only flights have had the seats temporarily removed?
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747classic
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:23 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Lufthansa's CEO said today that they are "running scenarios where their passenger 747 fleet gets used as pure freighters" and are "seeking to expand LH cargo's fleet". The 747-8i is capable of carrying 60+ tons of cargo and it is implied that it is the most efficient model LH has in the fleet for this purpose. Their 747 fleet would be (mostly) grounded otherwise.

Source in German: https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/corona-l ... -frachter/


KLM just grounded the last four 747-400combi aircraft due the corona crises, 9 months earlier than expected.
As a "temporally freighter " this could be the most efficient aircraft of KLM's passenger fleet to supplement the fleet of four 747 full freighters of AF/KL/MP Cargo :

When used as "freight onlÿ" passenger aircraft the following maximum payloads can be carried by a (KLM) 747combi and a 777-300ER (second best choice)

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER

213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46

See : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page
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KarlB737
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:27 pm

ual763 wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
Courtesy: Aviation Pros

Airlines Use Empty Passenger Jets to Ease the Cargo Crunch

https://www.aviationpros.com/airlines/news/21129974/airlines-use-empty-passenger-jets-to-ease-the-cargo-crunch


Do we know if these cargo only flights have had the seats temporarily removed?


Taken from a link within the article:

"It takes the better part of a year to convert an aircraft from a people-mover to a pallet-porter, work that includes pulling out seats, galleys, and lavatories, refashioning the fuselage with larger cargo doors, strengthening the floor to accommodate extra weight, and more. Plus, Shah says, Amazon long ago booked most of the upcoming slots with the companies that do that work, as it expands its own fleet. But planes that flew passengers until a few days ago—and presumably will again at some point—have plenty of capacity. A Boeing 777-200 that can carry 332 people has about 44,000 pounds of cargo capacity, compared with 125,000 pounds for the freighter version."
 
abcgogo
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:30 pm

There are a lot of widebody aircraft stored in boneyards, awaiting scrappage. Why aren't they re-activated for short term operations like the one being discussed ? Would it be possible for an airline to hire, say 10 A330-200, for a period of 3 months and use it for the cargo ops and return it to the boneyard once term is done ? Maybe the boneyards can make some money off of such short term rentals ?
 
Canuck600
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:39 pm

It takes a lot of time & money to get frames that have been in storage long term operational again.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:50 pm

I read about American using a 777 for frieght only ops from DFW to FRA to shuttle supplies to US troops, first time in over two decades.

Here is an article on FedEx,

https://dailymemphian.com/section/busin ... 9-positive
 
abcgogo
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:57 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
It takes a lot of time & money to get frames that have been in storage long term operational again.


Oh ok. Maybe the boneyards should start a business model where they keep a fleet of retired widebody aircraft in working condition, available for short term rentals when an airline needs capacity for short term. I'm not sure if it would be viable, but maybe more informed members can shed light on this concept.
 
ual763
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:12 pm

I realize that it takes a while to convert a passenger aircraft into a full-fledged cargo aircraft (cargo doors, floor tracks, galley/seat removal, etc. But, these particular cargo-only B77W flights right now on AAL... Have the seats at least been removed? Is there cargo in the passenger cabin at all?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:15 pm

I wonder about the 744's getting retired. A full freight conversion takes months to years, but just pulling seats, wouldn't that be pretty fast to do. LH is just now parking a number of active flying freighters.
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:41 pm

Once upon a time Boeing offered 727-100 and 737-200 (maybe other models?) aircraft as a QC variant, with full-size cargo doors behind the main boarding door and the ability to be converted in relatively short order from primarily passenger to pure cargo configuration. UA had a subfleet of each to supplement DC8F cargo planes. KL and BR and AS among others operated Boeing planes dedicated to 1/2 cargo and 1/2 passengers in the main cabin. It's too late to build planes like this now, but perhaps they should be considered as options for the future? The Covid-19 crisis will eventually pass, but others will happen sooner or later.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:55 pm

ual763 wrote:
I realize that it takes a while to convert a passenger aircraft into a full-fledged cargo aircraft (cargo doors, floor tracks, galley/seat removal, etc. But, these particular cargo-only B77W flights right now on AAL... Have the seats at least been removed? Is there cargo in the passenger cabin at all?


no, a commercial airline isn't going to remove seats, you're still not going to put cargo in the pax cabin.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:09 pm

747classic wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Lufthansa's CEO said today that they are "running scenarios where their passenger 747 fleet gets used as pure freighters" and are "seeking to expand LH cargo's fleet". The 747-8i is capable of carrying 60+ tons of cargo and it is implied that it is the most efficient model LH has in the fleet for this purpose. Their 747 fleet would be (mostly) grounded otherwise.

Source in German: https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/corona-l ... -frachter/


KLM just grounded the last four 747-400combi aircraft due the corona crises, 9 months earlier than expected.
As a "temporally freighter " this could be the most efficient aircraft of KLM's passenger fleet to supplement the fleet of four 747 full freighters of AF/KL/MP Cargo :

When used as "freight onlÿ" passenger aircraft the following maximum payloads can be carried by a (KLM) 747combi and a 777-300ER (second best choice)

Structural (cargo) payload 747-400combi 73,5 Tons (MZFW minus OEW)
Structural (cargo) payload 777-300ER = 69,8 tons (MZFW minus OEW)

However the usable volume (299 m3) for the 744combi is approx 40% higher than the usable volume (213,9 m3) of the 777-300ER

213.9 + (4x 21,39 ) = 299,46

See : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page

For comparison, the 747-8i offers 75.2 tons of cargo payload and 180.1 m3 of usable cargo volume, or 162 m3 if using containerized cargo only.
The A340-600, which LH has instead of KL's 77W, can carry up to 70 tons of cargo, with an available volume of 201.3 m3 of usable cargo volume, or 182 m3 of containerized cargo.

At MZFW, all three aircraft (748, 77W, A346) have a range of 5500 to 6000 nm, with about 550 / 750 / 600 nm of extra range gained per 10 tons of less payload.

The choice which aircraft to use probably depends on a whole lot of factors, not just on pure fuel efficiency, like:
.. pilot scheduling
.. cost of storage
.. cargo density and demand
.. fleet bases
.. ground handling at destination
.. range and choice of destination
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:24 pm

alasizon wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
Not in the conventional sense. Now that being said, if a regional carrier could figure out a way to operate cargo RJs, I could see the majors being willing to sell space on those to Amazon/FDX/UPS and increase their mail haulage.

5X and FX are only going to buy space domestically if it is dedicated to them. Right now that is already a thing. I know IFL runs dedicated to both carriers to SDF and MEM.

There are inefficiencies with that though. They don’t take containers so you’re loose loading everything which is time consuming on both the load and unload. And the cost is high unless you can really fill it. RJs on the cargo side have the same cost issues they have on the pax side.


I could see UPS and FedEx both being willing to buy bulk loaded space in what is currently regional markets (think PHX-MRY, DFW-FAR) where it gives them the edge on 2-day shipping and cuts down on some of the inter-region trucking in order to free up more trucks for the local and cross-country demand. I'm not an expert at freight economics by any means but if you offer 12k payload worth of space, assume Amazon 5X and FX all commit to 4k each, even though it's not fully dedicated I could see them taking it. Then whatever extra space and payload you have goes to US Mail.

The way I see it requires a network of cargo RJs that are also tied in to the rest of the airline enabling mass connections. Personally I see it as being more down 5X and Amazon's line than FX but there are benefits all the way around.

I do this kind of planning for one of them, it's never going to happen.

For one, lets say you do commit to 4k of space each, but one day FX has a special shipment that takes up 75% of the aircraft and then 5X has enough to take up another 50% of the aircraft? Then postal is another 20%.Whose volume do you leave behind? And then what do you do with it? In that scenario the only way to make the service commit is to put it into one of the night sorts which are already strained. It's not as simple as FX went over capacity so sit it, they are going to be paying a premium for the extra space and that puts 5X at a disadvantage, which they aren't going to let happen. And the mail takes priority. So you have to figure out how to 45% of an aircraft worth of volume between two competitors whose rivalry is only matched by Boeing/Airbus in the industry.

Not to mention, where are there overlaps in sorts? 5X for major sorts has SDF, PHL, RFD, ONT, and DFW domestically. FX has MEM, IND, EWR, AFW, and OAK. There is no efficient way to route those aircraft. What are you going to do? DFW-AFW-FAR? EWR-PHL-ABY? Even if you did, who gets the earlier flight time? Both airlines are going to want to be the last stop before going to the destination so they can get the most pieces on the aircraft.

2 Day really isn't the problem for either carriers. They run a much more limited schedule aircraft wise. If they needed extra capacity they have enough slack to add an aircraft. The next day is where you would probably need the additional aircraft, and there is no way they share it, ever. Someone comes out a loser, and neither are going to do that to themselves.

Cargo, and the integrators specifically, is a lot different than passengers. When you look at their structure they have bursts throughout the day where they need the capacity. It's between 3-5AM and between 3-5PM. Codeshare agreements don't work like they do with pax because you often don't know what you have until that day.

DHL and 5X tried to do something like this back in 2008 when they started shrinking domestically, the companies just couldn't come together to make it work. If they couldn't do it, there is no way you get 5X and FX onboard together. There is just too many challenges.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:28 pm

ual763 wrote:
I realize that it takes a while to convert a passenger aircraft into a full-fledged cargo aircraft (cargo doors, floor tracks, galley/seat removal, etc. But, these particular cargo-only B77W flights right now on AAL... Have the seats at least been removed? Is there cargo in the passenger cabin at all?

They don't have a cargo door or rollers, how are they going to get pallets and containers in there?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
rajincajun01
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:33 pm

sunking737 wrote:
rajincajun01 wrote:
Sun Country begins freighter flights next month. Receiving a fleet of 10 Boeing 737-800BCF.


They are being mod in China. I don't think they will get any before mid to late summer. Last i heard all work had stopped due to the virus.

There is apparently a plan in place to get them to PAE soon involving a stop and change of pilots in a third country.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B1900 B717 B727 B737 B757 B767 B777 B787 CR2 CR7 CRJ9 E120 ERJ135 ERJ145 L1011 MD80 SF340 AvGeek Superstore
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:00 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
I realize that it takes a while to convert a passenger aircraft into a full-fledged cargo aircraft (cargo doors, floor tracks, galley/seat removal, etc. But, these particular cargo-only B77W flights right now on AAL... Have the seats at least been removed? Is there cargo in the passenger cabin at all?

They don't have a cargo door or rollers, how are they going to get pallets and containers in there?

This is how they used to do it in the "good old days"
Normal steps up to the front door, and parcels one at a time up a conveyor ramp to the middle door.
Bootiful; I could sit and watch that for hours... and hours... and hours. :lol:

Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:07 pm

I suspect that the short term spike in cargo demand (everybody wants front door delivery now) will prompt some interesting ways to provide new supply. The above picture looks not as crazy as a few weeks ago.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8752
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:26 pm

rajincajun01 wrote:
Sun Country begins freighter flights next month. Receiving a fleet of 10 Boeing 737-800BCF.


We'll see when it is that those aircraft make it over here from China, where GECAS has had Boeing converting them.
 
trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:30 pm

CI cargo (FTK and $) up just over 20% for Feb compared to 2019 (though down slightly from Jan 2020), BR up only 5% fro 2019, Feb 20 slightly down from Jan 2020 also.
Would be interesting to see this months stats when they come out.

https://www.china-airlines.com/us/en/Im ... -71294.pdf
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2653
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:34 pm

IWMBH wrote:
HALtheAI wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-airlines/strings-attached-governments-offer-financial-lifelines-to-airlines-at-a-price-idUSKBN21701K
American Airlines (AAL.O) said on Thursday it would use some passenger jets to move cargo between the United States and Europe, its first scheduled cargo-only flights since 1984 when it retired the last of its 747 freighters.


Curious what plane they’re going to use, probably 777’s?


For the initial DFW-FRA, 777-300ERs.

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
 
trex8
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:24 pm

could they develop, or even have now, bags they can fill to put in the overhead storage and into the seats? I would think a lot of pax widebodies will bulk out from underbelly cargo before they weigh out.
 
Rossiya747
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:57 am

Qatar and Emirates have big cargo only aircraft. Heck, even Uzbekistan has 767Fs
223 319 320 321 332 333 346 388 734 737 738 739 38M 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 77W 788 789 208 CRJ2 E145 E190 UA DL AA WN AC CM 4O AV 2K FI DY D8 SK LH EI FR U2 IB OS LX BA VS BT PS MS SA SW QR EY HY AI 9W TG SQ MH AK D7 QZ BR NH CA QF MI LV/IB VY AL
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:25 am

744 combis would be more difficult to balance, without passengers, though, wouldn't they ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
CALMSP
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:29 am

trex8 wrote:
could they develop, or even have now, bags they can fill to put in the overhead storage and into the seats? I would think a lot of pax widebodies will bulk out from underbelly cargo before they weigh out.


there's no real need to do so.
 
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747classic
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:16 am

Aesma wrote:
744 combis would be more difficult to balance, without passengers, though, wouldn't they ?


I operated KLM classic combi's from 1976-2004.
Only in the 12 pallet maindeck combi configuration at the 747-2/3 combi's we could have some weight and balance problems when disembarking the passengers after landing after a diversion (using more fuel than planned). But this configuration is not certified anymore , the later installed halon knock down system was only certified for the 6/7 pallet configuration.
In the 744combi, operating in this 6/7 main deck pallet configuration, there are pratically no W&B issues, with a little bit clever load sheet planning :
High density cargo in the fwd lwr cargo holds and low density cargo in the aft lwr holds. On the main deck, the heaviest pallets at the most fwd positions, etc.
And a more aft CG saves fuel !
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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aeromoe
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:57 am

NameOmitted wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
Crzn33k wrote:
Alaska has all cargo 737-700s


Of course, the remote Alaskan communities need that cargo airlift...could be considered their "lifeblood."


Coming and going. AS runs a lot of fish out of Alaska, but they might not work as well this year. The canneries rely on bunkhouses of outsiders to operate, and they may not work with people concerned about the coronavirus.

Utqiagvik (Barrow) especially used to rely on the Combis heavily for inbound goods...probably others too like Nome and Kotzebue even though they are all seaside. Prudhoe Bay as well.
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(1) BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
USAirKid
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:20 pm

EWRandMDW wrote:
Once upon a time Boeing offered 727-100 and 737-200 (maybe other models?) aircraft as a QC variant, with full-size cargo doors behind the main boarding door and the ability to be converted in relatively short order from primarily passenger to pure cargo configuration. UA had a subfleet of each to supplement DC8F cargo planes. KL and BR and AS among others operated Boeing planes dedicated to 1/2 cargo and 1/2 passengers in the main cabin. It's too late to build planes like this now, but perhaps they should be considered as options for the future? The Covid-19 crisis will eventually pass, but others will happen sooner or later.


5X used to do this with their 727-200s they'd fly cargo during the week, and on the weekend they'd put seats in the planes and fly charters. I know one of the former flight attendants of this operation. One of the issues they ran into was that while the palletized seats, etc were supposed to be universal and fit in any plane, the 727-200s were irregular enough that eventually they dedicated each set of pallet-seats to a specific plane, just so they could consistently fit.
 
trex8
Posts: 5551
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:40 pm

Right at end of news story @2.10, is a MU A332 with a human chain taking boxes out of the main cabin. How do they "secure" these? Are they just up in the overhead lockers, are they somehow strapped into seats? Did they take the seats out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awe0-HkA3dw
 
mark787
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:07 am

At JFK, there is a huge backlog of freight for Europe, mostly badly needed medical supplies and medical equipment that needs to be sent urgently. I am surprised that AA or DL haven't used any of the flights out of JFK yet. Where I work, our warehouse is jammed packed, and in addition to having a huge increase in imports from China. Airlines need to be a little more creative and put more of their planes in service and start using the belly space to make some money and help move the needed supplies to badly affected countries. Fuel is at it's lowest now, and rates are through the roof just to move freight, and customers are paying premium prices to get it moved.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:44 pm

Expanding cargo capability can counter-balance any shift in passenger drop-off in the future.

Will airlines invest more in this in-house?

And would investments by the Big Three in FedEx, UPS or DHL be on the horizon?

Will dedicated freighters and combi aircraft perhaps see a surge ahead?
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