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CALMSP
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Re: Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:52 pm

I don't see any change in this coming. The big US3 will continue to be focused on pax ops with a cargo operation in the belly. Before wide bodies became more scheduled in the domestic US over the last few years, I could have seen some 738 freighters being converted as each carrier operates that fleet already, but don't see that coming on board. I would like to see it, but don't see it happening.

Freight is not this massive influx of unbelievable revenue like everyone believes it is. Right now? yes. But freight forwarders are just like the passenger side, looking for cheap rates since all air cargo goes through a third party before the airline receives it (shipper..........freight forwarder.........airline).
 
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enilria
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Re: Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:54 pm

Cargo is not a survival plan as the airlines carry way too much overhead and have the wrong aircraft to be competitive in cargo. This is a triage option to reduce the bleeding, but not a solution to anything.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:18 pm

I can see logistically how this can be seen as a departure from main passenger focus. But in times like this and in any time for that matter you can't teleconference product. I just think airlines see cargo as a convenient ancillary revenue stream rather than a bonified strategic focus.
 
LG777
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Re: Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:22 pm

No, the market is not in a normal situation right now. That may look like heaven but its not.
Cargo price increased sharply over the last weeks due to the need of the market first and then cargo hold capacity disappearing.
Some commercial airlines tries to earn what they can from that surplus of capacity needed on the market. At best it will cover part of the fixed cost of operating an airline (ie cost that exists even if aircrafts are not flying such as leasing/financing cost, office rent/financing etc).
After the crisis is over, cargo hold capacity will reappear, special market needs will disappear (medical supplies will come again from china mainly by sea as and not anymore by air) and the price will drop to where they were before that or even below that if we have an economic crisis due to the corona crisis.
The air cargo market is not an easy market. When it's booming it's great and easy but when yields fall its a bloodbath.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:40 pm

747classic wrote:
Aesma wrote:
744 combis would be more difficult to balance, without passengers, though, wouldn't they ?


I operated KLM classic combi's from 1976-2004.
Only in the 12 pallet maindeck combi configuration at the 747-2/3 combi's we could have some weight and balance problems when disembarking the passengers after landing after a diversion (using more fuel than planned). But this configuration is not certified anymore , the later installed halon knock down system was only certified for the 6/7 pallet configuration.
In the 744combi, operating in this 6/7 main deck pallet configuration, there are pratically no W&B issues, with a little bit clever load sheet planning :
High density cargo in the fwd lwr cargo holds and low density cargo in the aft lwr holds. On the main deck, the heaviest pallets at the most fwd positions, etc.
And a more aft CG saves fuel !


Thanks for the insight.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
B777LRF
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:00 pm

ITSTours wrote:
I'd like to know how much the max payload is though.


77W/L: 50 tons
A330: 35 tons
Signature. You just read one.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Will expanded CARGO ops be the new leverage for passenger carriers post-virus?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:03 pm

Well the airlines can become their own fowarders and harness the logistical expertise they already possess initially. In my mind I am thinking of a time when uber-type companies get into door-to-door and domestic cargo shipping, which the airlines can be in contract with.
 
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747classic
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:29 pm

B777LRF wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
I'd like to know how much the max payload is though.


77W/L: 50 tons
A330: 35 tons


Most aircraft, with only belly loading, will be limited by volume and not by max structural payload.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:33 pm

trex8 wrote:
Right at end of news story @2.10, is a MU A332 with a human chain taking boxes out of the main cabin. How do they "secure" these? Are they just up in the overhead lockers, are they somehow strapped into seats? Did they take the seats out?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awe0-HkA3dw


Large bags will be slung over the seats and secured with the seat belts. Freight goes into the bags.
Signature. You just read one.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:58 pm

EK will soon suspend most of its passenger flights but continue to operate cargo flights through its fleet of 777 freighters.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:26 pm

Keep in mind Trump started a trade war with everybody. The Covid-19 crisis is now making every country reconsider the benefits of offshoring, with each one wondering why they don't have plants making medicines, plants making masks, plants making respirators...

There could be a lot of inshoring, and Asia will have to have rock bottom shipping prices to stay competitive, so sea freight will stay king.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:48 am

UPS757Pilot wrote:
samuelmanuel wrote:
Will cargo airlines increase capacity to make up for all the lost belly cargo due to passenger flight cancillations?

Yes - UPS is adding MD-11 segments to/from HKG. The next few months could be a boon for cargo operators at the expense of the pax carriers.

well? UPS already has a large freighter fleet in active service or in short term storage. They or FEDEX could return some of those airplanes in a month or so depending on their condition. Because the conversion from pax to freighter? is not quick easy or cheap. Airborne used to load via the main cabin door years ago with specially designed main Cabin freight pods but to even duplicate that configuration? Could take well over a month per airplane with crews working around the clock.
this whole thing might well be over by that time as there is no guarantee it won't be over..
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:44 am

The trend to use passenger jets for cargo continues with Austrian Airlines sending two 77E to Xiamen (XMN) as cargo flights for essential medical supplies. https://www.austrianaviation.net/detail ... sterreich/
 
airbazar
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:11 pm

mark787 wrote:
At JFK, there is a huge backlog of freight for Europe, mostly badly needed medical supplies and medical equipment that needs to be sent urgently. I am surprised that AA or DL haven't used any of the flights out of JFK yet. Where I work, our warehouse is jammed packed, and in addition to having a huge increase in imports from China. Airlines need to be a little more creative and put more of their planes in service and start using the belly space to make some money and help move the needed supplies to badly affected countries. Fuel is at it's lowest now, and rates are through the roof just to move freight, and customers are paying premium prices to get it moved.

i suspect that unions in the U.S. make this extremely difficult which is why we see U.S. carriers being slow to do this. Why go thru the trouble when you can just ask uncle Sam for 50 billion $.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:42 am

QF operates 734 freighters domestically, as well as to NZ with a 763F. Currently having an A321 subfleet converted. Also contracts Atlas for 748.

Before they got the 763F they used the belly of a passenger 763 for trans-Tasman, with necessary cabin crew for safety reasons. Could perhaps happen again with currently parked birds (no 763 left of course, but A330?)?
S340/J31/146-300/F27/F50/Nord 262/Q100/200/E195/733/734/738/744/762/763/77W/788/789/320/321/332/333/345/359
 
DarQuiet
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:22 am

This is a test on operators how quick thinking they can be by being creative. Of course they will not just simply sit around with their airworthy-grounded planes.

Each has their own methods to preserve cash but to maintain liquidity (have cashflow coming in), they need options which operating a pax as pure cargo is one of it.

It may sound simple but depending on local regulations, it may need green light from respective local airworthiness authority.

Or when having zero pax in the cabin and if the cargo hold will be filled more than what is dictated by the weight and balance manual, it has to be approved by the aircraft OEM (though as long as the MTOW is carefully considered then it should be okay).
 
mxaxai
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:39 pm

Swiss is starting a 2x weekly cargo-only service with their A340-300 fleet, from this week onwards. https://www.airliners.de/swiss-world-ca ... inen/54432
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:35 pm

Some more updates on this:
Emirates is keeping parts of their network served by 77W for cargo even though DXB is closed for passengers from today onwards.
Image

We also have Airbus using their first A330-800 prototype (with a passenger cabin) for the transport of masks from China to France, and then some onwards to Spain aboard their test specimen MSN 56 A400M.
https://www.aerospacetestinginternation ... plies.html
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... forts.html
 
blueflyer
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Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:49 pm

USAirKid wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
Once upon a time Boeing offered 727-100 and 737-200 (maybe other models?) aircraft as a QC variant, with full-size cargo doors behind the main boarding door and the ability to be converted in relatively short order from primarily passenger to pure cargo configuration. UA had a subfleet of each to supplement DC8F cargo planes. KL and BR and AS among others operated Boeing planes dedicated to 1/2 cargo and 1/2 passengers in the main cabin. It's too late to build planes like this now, but perhaps they should be considered as options for the future? The Covid-19 crisis will eventually pass, but others will happen sooner or later.


5X used to do this with their 727-200s they'd fly cargo during the week, and on the weekend they'd put seats in the planes and fly charters. I know one of the former flight attendants of this operation. One of the issues they ran into was that while the palletized seats, etc were supposed to be universal and fit in any plane, the 727-200s were irregular enough that eventually they dedicated each set of pallet-seats to a specific plane, just so they could consistently fit.

TNT Air had a handful of 737 QCs as well that they were operating on behalf of tour operators in the daytime. By the time FedEx bought TNT, they were used only as freighter I believe. I don't think they're in the fleet anymore, probably sold off when TNT Air was acquired by ASL as part of FedEx buying TNT.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:37 pm

If a pax plane is flown with belly cargo only, and seats stay where they are, what is the situation with F/A staffing? Is it up to airlines/unions to work out no F/A's are on the flight, or do authorities also have a say?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
CALMSP
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Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:45 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
If a pax plane is flown with belly cargo only, and seats stay where they are, what is the situation with F/A staffing? Is it up to airlines/unions to work out no F/A's are on the flight, or do authorities also have a say?


it would be the same as if it was a maintenance ferry, no FA's necessary.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:03 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
If a pax plane is flown with belly cargo only, and seats stay where they are, what is the situation with F/A staffing? Is it up to airlines/unions to work out no F/A's are on the flight, or do authorities also have a say?


it would be the same as if it was a maintenance ferry, no FA's necessary.


International flight, using frequencies/rights, negotiated under a bilateral treaty, and carrying commercial freight. Maintenance ferry?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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sunking737
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Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:10 pm

SY has it first freighter arrived stateside. At PNE for conformity.
N542RL. 32579 / 1002 Boeing 737-83N(WL) Cargo Due Stored, lsf GECAS 18.4 Years old (planespotters.net) SY has 10 reg # reserved for the Sunnyzon jets They will not use NXXXSY tail numbers
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
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Airbus747
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All the cargo airlines in Europe's skies these days... any interesting stories?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:04 am

I've been in lockdown for a few weeks and all I see in the skies (and the radars) these days are a load of cargo and postal planes, with the very rare and solitary passenger aircraft.

So I got quite curious: are there any interesting stories, anecdotes, trivia or insights about what's going on up there currently?

Are there actually more cargo planes than usual, or do they just look more prominent now with less passenger traffic?
Has anything changed in the interactions between passenger pilots and cargo pilots?
How do pilots perceive the reduced air traffic around them? Are there any implications in terms of how flexible they can be with their route choices?
Does the world look "emptier" these days from up there?
Anything else interesting to read about while having a little bit more free time and stuck at home?

Stay home / safe travels to those who can :)
 
TC957
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Re: All the cargo airlines in Europe's skies these days... any interesting stories?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:15 am

I would imagine that with regular belly cargo capacity on passenger flights cut off, road borders closed within the EU, the demand for pure freighters has never been greater.
And of course lots of medical suppliers need urgent transportation.
 
B777LRF
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Re: All the cargo airlines in Europe's skies these days... any interesting stories?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:37 am

Lots of interesting stories, must of which would result in an immediate and permanent ban on these pages :)

Could tell you about the times we took 30+ tons of freshly minted cash from a place with trees to places there are none. Or just moving the same weight of Euro's from one end of Europe to the other, with all the security hoopla that goes with it. Or the times we flew racing horses around Europe, moving stupidly expensive 600 pounds of muscle with a brain the size of walnut and the temper of a female alligator in heat to and from races. Of having to load aircraft engines in "floating" positions because, well, whomever bought the aircraft never thought of checking the option of installing floor locks for such cases.

But 99,9% of the times you're moving the proverbial rubber dog sh1t out of Honkers to a place where said article is in high demand. The flying bit is also almost exactly the same as flying self-loading freight, except boxes don't emit virus and doesn't expect you to come on the horn and tell them the expected flight time and weather at destination. You also have to make your own coffee, or raid what constitutes a galley bar for drinks, snacks, sandwiches and, believe it or not, operate the oven yourself to heat a meal. On the plus-plus side, once the doors are closed and things have settled down, there's no-one complaining if you do an "inspection round" and light up a crafty smoke along the way. At least I never met one during my flying days.

Then there was the time I'd positioned from DXB to BRU on an A310, with 7 people onboard. One of the other passengers had bought a couple of bottles of red in the duty free, another had 2 six-packs and I happened to have a bottle of Jack D. Everyone onboard except for the poor FO was a smoker, and by the time we landed in BRU all passengers were in a very good mood, having consumed the alcohol and the better part of a carton of smokes. I had a few hours until the next positioning flight to LOS, and obviously spent them in the bar. Got back to the airport and was greeted by a roaring laugh as I fought my way up the stairs. "You're more drunk than usual for a positioning flight" said the skipper, "and you flippin' stink"! Was ordered to stay out of the cockpit, so made a nest in the galley area and put my head down. Woke up somewhere over Sahara, albeit I couldn't tell at first owning to the almost complete darkness in the galley. My head was pounding, and I thought I'd better let the boys up front know I was still alive. Opened the door to the cockpit and was greeted by blazing sunshine and 2 guys laughing their arses off "you still stink buddy", "and we're out of coffee". Decamped to the back, drank a litre of water and brushed my teeth whilst making coffee. Promised myself never to get that drunk again prior to a flight, a promise which wasn't quite met.

In my experience it's only outside the ranks of professionals there's a rivalry between cargo and pax pilots; at some airlines you might even be flying boxes one day, and humans the next. As for interaction, there was never much to start with as the two normally utilises different parts of an airport. Most times I saw a pax pilot, he or she would be sitting up the sharp end while my arse was plunked in a plush seat down the back, positioning from hither to dither. But with the vast majority of pax pilots sitting at home, naturally there'll be even less of it these day.

With vastly reduced traffic, those still flying are likely to see much more direct routings and ability to file, and get!, the optimum cruising altitude and routing you're looking for. Slot times are a thing of the past too, as are enroute delays and holdings. So faster sectors, less fuel burn, arrive earlier at destination but, alas, no bars to visit for a sneaky landing beer or 10.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: All the cargo airlines in Europe's skies these days... any interesting stories?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:46 am

From where I sit, a lot of transit airtraffic was already gone after Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 (official of Crimea, disguised of Eastern Ukraine), with closure of large swathes of airspace for operation by any civilized nation (airspace over Crimea was still busy with Russian flights. Invaders don't care for legality).
Now, the skies over Ukraine are missing most passenger flights, but dedicated cargo flying had to pick up.
This fella is now flying international mail:
Image
https://cfts.org.ua/news/2020/04/03/aer ... ozok_58138

Antonov Airlines is now reactivating An-225 Mriya, in anticipation of cargo business.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
516575
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Re: All the cargo airlines in Europe's skies these days... any interesting stories?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:56 am

B777LRF wrote:
Lots of interesting stories, must of which would result in an immediate and permanent ban on these pages :)

Could tell you about the times we took 30+ tons of freshly minted cash from a place with trees to places there are none. Or just moving the same weight of Euro's from one end of Europe to the other, with all the security hoopla that goes with it. Or the times we flew racing horses around Europe, moving stupidly expensive 600 pounds of muscle with a brain the size of walnut and the temper of a female alligator in heat to and from races. Of having to load aircraft engines in "floating" positions because, well, whomever bought the aircraft never thought of checking the option of installing floor locks for such cases.

But 99,9% of the times you're moving the proverbial rubber dog sh1t out of Honkers to a place where said article is in high demand. The flying bit is also almost exactly the same as flying self-loading freight, except boxes don't emit virus and doesn't expect you to come on the horn and tell them the expected flight time and weather at destination. You also have to make your own coffee, or raid what constitutes a galley bar for drinks, snacks, sandwiches and, believe it or not, operate the oven yourself to heat a meal. On the plus-plus side, once the doors are closed and things have settled down, there's no-one complaining if you do an "inspection round" and light up a crafty smoke along the way. At least I never met one during my flying days.

Then there was the time I'd positioned from DXB to BRU on an A310, with 7 people onboard. One of the other passengers had bought a couple of bottles of red in the duty free, another had 2 six-packs and I happened to have a bottle of Jack D. Everyone onboard except for the poor FO was a smoker, and by the time we landed in BRU all passengers were in a very good mood, having consumed the alcohol and the better part of a carton of smokes. I had a few hours until the next positioning flight to LOS, and obviously spent them in the bar. Got back to the airport and was greeted by a roaring laugh as I fought my way up the stairs. "You're more drunk than usual for a positioning flight" said the skipper, "and you flippin' stink"! Was ordered to stay out of the cockpit, so made a nest in the galley area and put my head down. Woke up somewhere over Sahara, albeit I couldn't tell at first owning to the almost complete darkness in the galley. My head was pounding, and I thought I'd better let the boys up front know I was still alive. Opened the door to the cockpit and was greeted by blazing sunshine and 2 guys laughing their arses off "you still stink buddy", "and we're out of coffee". Decamped to the back, drank a litre of water and brushed my teeth whilst making coffee. Promised myself never to get that drunk again prior to a flight, a promise which wasn't quite met.

In my experience it's only outside the ranks of professionals there's a rivalry between cargo and pax pilots; at some airlines you might even be flying boxes one day, and humans the next. As for interaction, there was never much to start with as the two normally utilises different parts of an airport. Most times I saw a pax pilot, he or she would be sitting up the sharp end while my arse was plunked in a plush seat down the back, positioning from hither to dither. But with the vast majority of pax pilots sitting at home, naturally there'll be even less of it these day.

With vastly reduced traffic, those still flying are likely to see much more direct routings and ability to file, and get!, the optimum cruising altitude and routing you're looking for. Slot times are a thing of the past too, as are enroute delays and holdings. So faster sectors, less fuel burn, arrive earlier at destination but, alas, no bars to visit for a sneaky landing beer or 10.



Good to hear you can enjoy yourself when the opportunity arises. It is interesting looking at FR24 and the number of freighters airborne at one time, I have a background in airfreight so the industry has always interested me, but there does seem to be a lot of extra flights at present, not including the passenger aircraft doing freight only flights. I know in SYD we have had a lot of extra freighter flights, SQ cargo is more than daily, FX have been sending an MD11 from SIN a few times a week, the QF 763 freighter has been working overtime putting in extra HKG flights. QF also seem to have picked up an extra 5Y 74Y to do extra services. I am also astonished at the number of 777F that QR have, they seem to be everywhere.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:11 pm

LDRA wrote:
Fuel is so cheap, it might be more economical to fly older aircraft, as engine overhaul cost would be lower


Where did you get the Idea that engine overhaul costs are low for older airplanes? What would be lower? buying Used engines for no longer operating airplanes if they're available. Many jet engines are being converted to stationary powerplants driving megawatt generators on LNG. The soot factor is near zero as LNG is very clean burning. They're also used for oil and Gas field Powerplants. a especially if they're CF6-50's or JT8D's, JT9D's or J79's. But even with the Overhaul ? the only thing you might find cheaper are some of the rotating parts like Bearings, compressor and turbine blades the Stator vanes will pretty much wear out at the same rate. so the overhaul will not be a lot cheaper. I'm an aircraft Mechanic by profession but since I've retired I work project work on stationary powerplants. One of the places I've worked is in Silicon Valley where they have stationary Gas turbines running 24/7 on LNG. The power plants run for some of the largest silicon valley firms on the west bay between Palo Alto and South San Jose, CA. I only work Projects at the moment because I do NOT want to go back to work full time. I did that for 46 years, but working a month here and there? Is pretty good and I ONLY work day shift. with weekends off when I work. other than that? I'm more than happy to stay home and annoy my wife.
 
Sokes
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:10 am

trex8 wrote:
Looking at a paper edition Air Cargo News from early this year
For 2018, largest cargo carriers by FTK
Fedex 17499
...

If a B777F flies 100 t over 7000 km it's already 700.000 FTK.
Maybe you mean 17499 million FTK in 2018?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
trex8
Posts: 5551
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:30 pm

Sokes wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Looking at a paper edition Air Cargo News from early this year
For 2018, largest cargo carriers by FTK
Fedex 17499
...

If a B777F flies 100 t over 7000 km it's already 700.000 FTK.
Maybe you mean 17499 million FTK in 2018?

You are indeed correct!
 
iadguy73
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:48 am

Re: Air Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:27 pm

BA has been flying cargo runs LHR-PHL in the last couple of weeks on B772 and B788.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW67
 
Kilopond
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:04 pm

Lufthansa is expanding cargo operations with passenger planes.

[...] From Easter onwards, 35 weekly flights with Lufthansa passenger aircraft will be added exclusively for cargo transport. Since the cabin space of these aircraft can also be loaded with cargo, this results in an average capacity of about 30 tons [...]

In order to further increase the possible cargo volume, especially for the transport of comparatively light goods such as protective masks, parts of the cabin interior of initially four Lufthansa aircraft will be removed.[...]

Austrian Airlines is expected to provide 16 flights a week from Vienna [...] Passenger jets of the type Boeing 767-300 and Boeing 777-200 will be used. []


https://lufthansa-cargo.com/en/newsroom ... ty-2990392
 
trex8
Posts: 5551
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:24 am

Kilopond wrote:
Lufthansa is expanding cargo operations with passenger planes.

[...] From Easter onwards, 35 weekly flights with Lufthansa passenger aircraft will be added exclusively for cargo transport. Since the cabin space of these aircraft can also be loaded with cargo, this results in an average capacity of about 30 tons [...]

In order to further increase the possible cargo volume, especially for the transport of comparatively light goods such as protective masks, parts of the cabin interior of initially four Lufthansa aircraft will be removed.[...]

Austrian Airlines is expected to provide 16 flights a week from Vienna [...] Passenger jets of the type Boeing 767-300 and Boeing 777-200 will be used. []


https://lufthansa-cargo.com/en/newsroom ... ty-2990392

"51 additional weekly cargo flights from Germany and Austria to Asia and back ++ seats will be removed from several passenger aircraft"
In order to further increase the possible cargo volume, especially for the transport of comparatively light goods such as protective masks, parts of the cabin interior of initially four Lufthansa aircraft will be removed"
They are removing seats only etc? Not the rear galleys/toilets etc to easier access??
What are they going to do , put pallets on the floor secured to the seat floor rails??
 
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SQ22
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:00 am

Here is an older article about the first trip of a LH A330 carrying freight. Seats had not been removed at this time.

In Pictures: Lufthansa Turns An Airbus A330 Into Cargo Plane

According to this source they have removed seats from four A330 which are operated on top of all 17 genuine freighters (article in German only).

Lufthansa baut Passagiersitze aus vier A330 aus
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:23 am

BA apparently sent a 747 to Larnaca on Thursday to collect 54 cats and dogs. Conformation welcome!
 
LJ
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:30 am

trex8 wrote:
"51 additional weekly cargo flights from Germany and Austria to Asia and back ++ seats will be removed from several passenger aircraft"


One begins to wonder if the party is already over now that everybody is increasiing cargo capacity (KLM has reinstated 3 747 Combis in addition to its current schedule of 777s flying cargo).
 
Kilopond
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:21 am

LJ wrote:
[...One begins to wonder if the party is already over now that everybody is increasiing cargo capacity (KLM has reinstated 3 747 Combis in addition to its current schedule of 777s flying cargo).


Not at all, at least not during the foreseeable future. That is because the chaos at the maritime shipping industry is worsening even further. First, there were the many displaced TEU/FEU containers. And now there is a severe crewing crisis caused by the global travel bans and the lack of scheduled passenger flights.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/20 ... rd-choice/
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:06 pm

FedEx will fly a MD-11 from Anchorage to Manchester, NH tomorrow. Local inventor Dean Kamen (the SEGWAY) is good friends with FE’s Smith and arranged a shipment of COVID-19 masks.

Flight number 9731.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
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qf789
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:05 pm

Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... sary-Cargo
Forum Moderator
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:38 pm

qf789 wrote:
Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... sary-Cargo


Of which only maybe 4 1/2 tons may be going on the main deck if Im reading the placard in the pic in this link correctly, 3 positions each cabin for 969Lbs
https://blog.wandr.me/2020/04/air-canad ... aign=26501
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:25 pm

747classic wrote:
Aesma wrote:
744 combis would be more difficult to balance, without passengers, though, wouldn't they ?


I operated KLM classic combi's from 1976-2004.
Only in the 12 pallet maindeck combi configuration at the 747-2/3 combi's we could have some weight and balance problems when disembarking the passengers after landing after a diversion (using more fuel than planned). But this configuration is not certified anymore , the later installed halon knock down system was only certified for the 6/7 pallet configuration.
In the 744combi, operating in this 6/7 main deck pallet configuration, there are pratically no W&B issues, with a little bit clever load sheet planning :
High density cargo in the fwd lwr cargo holds and low density cargo in the aft lwr holds. On the main deck, the heaviest pallets at the most fwd positions, etc.
And a more aft CG saves fuel !

I was fortunate to be a pax on an Alitalia 12 pallet 747 combi once- a very enjoyable flight (it was also empty of pax)! Where did KLM send the 12 pallet 747's- I think I saw one in SIN once (doors 4 & 5 weren't outlined/marked).
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:44 pm

trex8 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... sary-Cargo


Of which only maybe 4 1/2 tons may be going on the main deck if Im reading the placard in the pic in this link correctly, 3 positions each cabin for 969Lbs
https://blog.wandr.me/2020/04/air-canad ... aign=26501


maybe that placard was just for the center area, so triple that 4 1/2 tons though the side positions look narrower than the center
 
OB1504
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:55 pm

airbazar wrote:
mark787 wrote:
At JFK, there is a huge backlog of freight for Europe, mostly badly needed medical supplies and medical equipment that needs to be sent urgently. I am surprised that AA or DL haven't used any of the flights out of JFK yet. Where I work, our warehouse is jammed packed, and in addition to having a huge increase in imports from China. Airlines need to be a little more creative and put more of their planes in service and start using the belly space to make some money and help move the needed supplies to badly affected countries. Fuel is at it's lowest now, and rates are through the roof just to move freight, and customers are paying premium prices to get it moved.

i suspect that unions in the U.S. make this extremely difficult which is why we see U.S. carriers being slow to do this. Why go thru the trouble when you can just ask uncle Sam for 50 billion $.


Why would the unions make this difficult? The airlines already shipped cargo before. The only difference now is that there just won’t be any passengers to go with it.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:50 pm

OB1504 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
mark787 wrote:
At JFK, there is a huge backlog of freight for Europe, mostly badly needed medical supplies and medical equipment that needs to be sent urgently. I am surprised that AA or DL haven't used any of the flights out of JFK yet. Where I work, our warehouse is jammed packed, and in addition to having a huge increase in imports from China. Airlines need to be a little more creative and put more of their planes in service and start using the belly space to make some money and help move the needed supplies to badly affected countries. Fuel is at it's lowest now, and rates are through the roof just to move freight, and customers are paying premium prices to get it moved.

i suspect that unions in the U.S. make this extremely difficult which is why we see U.S. carriers being slow to do this. Why go thru the trouble when you can just ask uncle Sam for 50 billion $.


Why would the unions make this difficult? The airlines already shipped cargo before. The only difference now is that there just won’t be any passengers to go with it.


Just a guess? A passenger airplane, flying around, and flight attendants not being onboard, and not getting paid for it?
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trex8
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:26 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
[

Just a guess? A passenger airplane, flying around, and flight attendants not being onboard, and not getting paid for it?

Its not a passenger revenue flight. They don't put FA on ferry flights etc.
 
AirbusOnly
Posts: 409
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:31 pm

9H-SUN, A340 of HiFly just flying MVD-MEL as flight 5M751, nearly 11.600km nonstop! Very interesting unusual routing - also an repatriation flight?? 9H-SUN before flew LIS-MVD
 
OB1504
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:46 pm

trex8 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
[

Just a guess? A passenger airplane, flying around, and flight attendants not being onboard, and not getting paid for it?

Its not a passenger revenue flight. They don't put FA on ferry flights etc.


And this arrangement at least preserves the jobs of some pilots and rampers even if it can’t do anything for flight attendants and customer service agents.

AA just announced a bunch of cargo only flights and if I recall correctly their most senior flight attendants will be paid to stay at home.
 
Bradin
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:10 pm

OB1504 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
[

Just a guess? A passenger airplane, flying around, and flight attendants not being onboard, and not getting paid for it?

Its not a passenger revenue flight. They don't put FA on ferry flights etc.


And this arrangement at least preserves the jobs of some pilots and rampers even if it can’t do anything for flight attendants and customer service agents.

AA just announced a bunch of cargo only flights and if I recall correctly their most senior flight attendants will be paid to stay at home.


Honestly, we are all in uncharted waters here. If a union wants to be unreasonable and file a grievance, they are well within their rights too.

However given the choice of the entire airline going under and everyone losing their jobs, versus making some money to at least help keep the lights on and possibly lessen the impact with a hope of break even, I hope they go for the latter than the former.

My hope is that unions will be reasonable and willing to bend rules and work with executive management on an interim basis because everyone is hurting.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 681
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:51 am

Bradin wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Its not a passenger revenue flight. They don't put FA on ferry flights etc.


And this arrangement at least preserves the jobs of some pilots and rampers even if it can’t do anything for flight attendants and customer service agents.

AA just announced a bunch of cargo only flights and if I recall correctly their most senior flight attendants will be paid to stay at home.


Honestly, we are all in uncharted waters here. If a union wants to be unreasonable and file a grievance, they are well within their rights too.

However given the choice of the entire airline going under and everyone losing their jobs, versus making some money to at least help keep the lights on and possibly lessen the impact with a hope of break even, I hope they go for the latter than the former.

My hope is that unions will be reasonable and willing to bend rules and work with executive management on an interim basis because everyone is hurting.


I believe FAs are not needed for belly cargo flights but are required if there is cargo in the cabin given the fire hazards, and the lack of fire-suppressing systems in the passenger cabin.
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