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bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:57 am

Just noticed LOT has been sending a 787 to TSE (NUR- SULTAN) this week a couple of times from WAW... Flight number is LO7921. I'm thinking these might be cargo flights considering its the newest capital of Kazakhstan and I'm guessing there isn't a huge need for any repatriation between the two countries?
 
eamondzhang
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Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:44 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Just noticed LOT has been sending a 787 to TSE (NUR- SULTAN) this week a couple of times from WAW... Flight number is LO7921. I'm thinking these might be cargo flights considering its the newest capital of Kazakhstan and I'm guessing there isn't a huge need for any repatriation between the two countries?

Tech stop to swap crew befroe they continue onto China.

AirbusOnly wrote:
9H-SUN, A340 of HiFly just flying MVD-MEL as flight 5M751, nearly 11.600km nonstop! Very interesting unusual routing - also an repatriation flight?? 9H-SUN before flew LIS-MVD

Yes for Aussie/Kiwi cruise ship pax (about 120 of them) from MS Greg Mortimer - a ship that has 60% onboard crew and pax confirmed with COVID-19 already. Interestingly all the confirmed cases display no symptom whatsoever.

Guess normal airlines for reparation between South America & Australia don't want to do the job (i.e. LA and QF) due to the risk involved.

Michael
 
smokeybandit
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:47 am

Looks like El Al flew the shipment of Hydroxychloroquine to the US that the Indian government provided

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/4XE ... 00411/0701

https://twitter.com/SandhuTaranjitS/sta ... /LLBG/KEWR
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:21 am

Tech stop to swap crew befroe they continue onto China.

Really? Did I miss something or is this some kind of new requirement for China flights?.. And is TSE an odd choice for a crew swap? I mean.. I don't know.. Is it? Lol it seems like it is.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:44 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Tech stop to swap crew befroe they continue onto China.

Really? Did I miss something or is this some kind of new requirement for China flights?.. And is TSE an odd choice for a crew swap? I mean.. I don't know.. Is it? Lol it seems like it is.

They did this so they can use a set of crew for return trip from TSE to PVG/PEK without the need to swap crew in China. Reason - don't ask me as China is not saying the 14-day mandatory quaranteen is applicable to air crew.

They normally do operate to PEK and they did not do this when things are normal. I bet it's just LO specific thing.

Michael
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:52 am

qf789 wrote:
Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... sary-Cargo


That would be totally illegal in our jurisdiction. No smoke detectors, no fire suppression, and no cargo barriers.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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accargofra
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:11 am

zeke wrote:

That would be totally illegal in our jurisdiction. No smoke detectors, no fire suppression, and no cargo barriers.


cargo will be secured by netting / tie-down - as load will be restricted by bays/sections weight-wise.
already approved by transport canada to operate those flights as per current (seats removed) configuartion - but not sure about the (maybe requiremnts) for crew and additional fire extinguishers in the cabin, beside the cockpit crew operation on the AC cargo only fligts always with a team of 3.

accargofra
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:42 am

The dedicated freight aircraft usually have fairly low utilisation. They are mainly limited by pilots. But today the freight aircraft are now flying many additional flights per week with plenty of spare pilots available.
 
zkncj
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:56 am

zeke wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... sary-Cargo


That would be totally illegal in our jurisdiction. No smoke detectors, no fire suppression, and no cargo barriers.


More Western counties than you think are willing to approve it at the moment, NZ has had the green light that they could do it with there 777s if needed.
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:30 am

zkncj wrote:
More Western counties than you think are willing to approve it at the moment, NZ has had the green light that they could do it with there 777s if needed.


There is no shortage of suitable freighters that can do the job safely, not to mention the large number of dedicated freighters in storage. The aircraft could also carry cargo just in the holds where it approved to be carried.

There are ways and means to do this safely, and just removing seats and putting some tape on the floor is not the way to do it.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
KFTG
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:12 am

Euro Atlantic getting in on the action too?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CSTFM
 
bourbon
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:03 pm

zeke wrote:
zkncj wrote:
More Western counties than you think are willing to approve it at the moment, NZ has had the green light that they could do it with there 777s if needed.


There is no shortage of suitable freighters that can do the job safely, not to mention the large number of dedicated freighters in storage. The aircraft could also carry cargo just in the holds where it approved to be carried.

There are ways and means to do this safely, and just removing seats and putting some tape on the floor is not the way to do it.


Wonder how many of those dedicated freighters can be pulled on to the runway and fly off into the sky today and their be a crew with the airline that parked it too.

If they are just masks, I wouldn’t worry about fire. If 6 crew die from a fire yet masks already delivered from other flights exceeds 10, the missions worked. Flame me all you want.
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:22 pm

bourbon wrote:
Wonder how many of those dedicated freighters can be pulled on to the runway and fly off into the sky today and their be a crew with the airline that parked it too.

If they are just masks, I wouldn’t worry about fire. If 6 crew die from a fire yet masks already delivered from other flights exceeds 10, the missions worked. Flame me all you want.


Why not just use the existing holds ? Try loading a 777 passenger cabin with cargo though normal passenger doors.

Not like there is a shortage of aircraft or crews, fuel is cheap, they could just do more trips

BTW many doctors believe masks do not prevent people from getting the virus, and may in fact cause more infections as people use their contaminated hands to move the mask.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
beechnut
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:35 pm

zeke wrote:
bourbon wrote:
Wonder how many of those dedicated freighters can be pulled on to the runway and fly off into the sky today and their be a crew with the airline that parked it too.

If they are just masks, I wouldn’t worry about fire. If 6 crew die from a fire yet masks already delivered from other flights exceeds 10, the missions worked. Flame me all you want.


Why not just use the existing holds ? Try loading a 777 passenger cabin with cargo though normal passenger doors.

Not like there is a shortage of aircraft or crews, fuel is cheap, they could just do more trips

BTW many doctors believe masks do not prevent people from getting the virus, and may in fact cause more infections as people use their contaminated hands to move the mask.


The masks being carried by AC are for medical personnel, not the general public. Medical staff generally know the protocols to avoid contamination.

Masks for the general public are not a priority. Our health care system in my province, Quebec, only has an 8 day supply of N95 masks for hospital staff. The situation is the same, I think, in Ontario. It’s why it’s necessary to carry as many per trip as possible. Plus it gives AC some much needed revenue to survive the crisis. I’d rather we give it to AC than chartering foreign freighters.

Beech
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:37 pm

bourbon wrote:
zeke wrote:
zkncj wrote:
More Western counties than you think are willing to approve it at the moment, NZ has had the green light that they could do it with there 777s if needed.


There is no shortage of suitable freighters that can do the job safely, not to mention the large number of dedicated freighters in storage. The aircraft could also carry cargo just in the holds where it approved to be carried.

There are ways and means to do this safely, and just removing seats and putting some tape on the floor is not the way to do it.


Wonder how many of those dedicated freighters can be pulled on to the runway and fly off into the sky today and their be a crew with the airline that parked it too.

If they are just masks, I wouldn’t worry about fire. If 6 crew die from a fire yet masks already delivered from other flights exceeds 10, the missions worked. Flame me all you want.

How long does it take to "reactivate" a boneyard stored 744F? CIs one they reactivated last year flew to TPE and was there 3 months before leased to ASL but how long did it take at VCV to get it ready to fly to TPE?
Well for them the crews which were flying their 4 parked 744 pax probably helping flying their 18 freighters now.

Are the smoke detectors only in the toilets in the main cabin?? Or are others scattered around or in the galleys etc
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:50 pm

beechnut wrote:
Our health care system in my province, Quebec, only has an 8 day supply of N95 masks for hospital staff.


The virus is smaller than what a N95 mask will filter.

You still have not answered the question why they could not just fly more trips using existing holds, the have lots of aircraft and crew sitting around doing nothing, why only fly 3 of their 77W ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:57 pm

trex8 wrote:
How long does it take to "reactivate" a boneyard stored 744F? CIs one they reactivated last year flew to TPE and was there 3 months before leased to ASL but how long did it take at VCV to get it ready to fly to TPE?


And that may have more to do with trying to get all the aircraft parts back onto the airframe. Over the life of the aircraft parts are pulled from different aircraft and used as rotable spares. They are tracked as to where they are, however at the end of lease or life often it can parts on many other aircraft. It is not uncommon for one of the longest processes is to get the correct engines back on the aircraft, as it may involve getting them off 4 other aircraft.

The other issue is that when aircraft are stored, they still have maintenance tasks due, and these have to be caught up before going into commercial service.

trex8 wrote:
Are the smoke detectors only in the toilets in the main cabin??


That is correct
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:35 pm

If those AC 77Ws can carry 969lbs x27 (9 sections per cabin, 3 cabins- per that placard) in the main cabin, at $5/kg thats close to 60K more revenue.
Whats Jet A fuel price these days for an airline? Googling it FBO costs can be up to $7/gallon but how much do airlines pay, I assume significantly less than some guy in his GA plane at an FBO?
Back of envelope calculation by someone not in the industry. Is it more profitable to run a 789 than a 77W transpac even taking into account the extra hold capacity of a 77W? 3 extra pallets, say 12m3 at 200kg/.m3, $5/kg- so only $36000 more revenue than a 789. But that 789 is burning what 5.5 vs 8 tons/hour fuel? Plus higher landing charges on 77W etc etc. At say $3/USgallon and a 10hr flight, that 77W is burning $24K more fuel at $3/gallon but still making money but at $5/USG its costing more than the extra capacity over a 789 and the longer the flight the more advantage to the 789.
 
LJ
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:34 pm

OB1504 wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
[

Just a guess? A passenger airplane, flying around, and flight attendants not being onboard, and not getting paid for it?

Its not a passenger revenue flight. They don't put FA on ferry flights etc.


And this arrangement at least preserves the jobs of some pilots and rampers even if it can’t do anything for flight attendants and customer service agents.

AA just announced a bunch of cargo only flights and if I recall correctly their most senior flight attendants will be paid to stay at home.


UA is doing this for weeks now. We get 2 flights a day on most days here at AMS which are cargo only for weeks now. The DL/KL flights to the US are officially passenger flights.
 
blueflyer
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:44 pm

zeke wrote:
There is no shortage of suitable freighters that can do the job safely, not to mention the large number of dedicated freighters in storage.

Given cost and time involved, re-activating a freighter in storage addresses long-term ongoing needs. It is not a worthy investment when the need is immediate and the time horizon is the next six months by which the current imbalance could be solved by scheduled passenger flights returning to the skies.
As for freighters being available today, I can only wonder why so many passenger aircraft are being used to haul cargo then. It is one thing when airlines are doing it to meet commitments and bring in a bit of revenue, it is another when freight forwarders charter passenger aircraft to move freight.
https://www.aircargonews.net/freight-fo ... er-flight/
 
Kilopond
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:18 pm

trex8 wrote:
[...]Whats Jet A fuel price these days for an airline?[...]


Check the IATA price monitor - :lol: to see how bad your estimate was ;)

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/ec ... l-monitor/
 
beechnut
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:23 pm

zeke wrote:
The virus is smaller than what a N95 mask will filter.


The CDC seems to disagree and recommends them *only* for medical personnel.

zeke wrote:
You still have not answered the question why they could not just fly more trips using existing holds, the have lots of aircraft and crew sitting around doing nothing, why only fly 3 of their 77W ?


I was addressing the mask issue. You'll have to ask Air Canada why they're doing it the way they're doing it. One presumes someone at AC has figured out this was the most productive and cost-efficient way.

Beech
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:28 pm

Kilopond wrote:
trex8 wrote:
[...]Whats Jet A fuel price these days for an airline?[...]


Check the IATA price monitor - :lol: to see how bad your estimate was ;)

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/ec ... l-monitor/

that's price at refinery, whats the price when they pump it into a plane at an airport is what I think is useful. Im sure the 1.80/gallon for regular I put in my car wasn't 1.80 at the refinery either.

here's FBO prices in Chicago area, plug in your local airport
Jet A prices within 35 miles of KORD
Airport / FBO
Jet A
$2.55—$7.07
average $4.57
https://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

someone in the industry has to have an idea.
 
dr1980
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:43 pm

zeke wrote:
You still have not answered the question why they could not just fly more trips using existing holds, the have lots of aircraft and crew sitting around doing nothing, why only fly 3 of their 77W ?


I would assume the airlines have figured out this is more efficient, and if they’re flying on contract to the Canadian government, this is what was needed to meet the terms of the contract.
Dave/CYHZ
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:18 am

What sort of weight savings world removing the seats being? How many flights before those savings exceed the labor cost involved?
 
BA777FO
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:17 am

trex8 wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
trex8 wrote:
[...]Whats Jet A fuel price these days for an airline?[...]


Check the IATA price monitor - :lol: to see how bad your estimate was ;)

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/ec ... l-monitor/

that's price at refinery, whats the price when they pump it into a plane at an airport is what I think is useful. Im sure the 1.80/gallon for regular I put in my car wasn't 1.80 at the refinery either.

here's FBO prices in Chicago area, plug in your local airport
Jet A prices within 35 miles of KORD
Airport / FBO
Jet A
$2.55—$7.07
average $4.57
https://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

someone in the industry has to have an idea.


Many airlines will be hedged (although I know some notable US airlines have avoided that) so not all will be benefiting from the lower price.

However, with oil at $60-70 per barrel typically JetA/Jet A1 was about $500-$600 per metric tonne. With oil at half the price it won't quite halve the cost/metric tonne but I'd be surprised if many airlines on the open market are paying any more than $300-$400 per metric tonne.
 
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zeke
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:04 am

blueflyer wrote:
Given cost and time involved, re-activating a freighter in storage addresses long-term ongoing needs. It is not a worthy investment when the need is immediate and the time horizon is the next six months by which the current imbalance could be solved by scheduled passenger flights returning to the skies.


There is either a genuine need or there is not a genuine need, cost is not the issue. What you haven't mentioned is that if there was a genuine need to bulk quantities, a few aircraft loads would be more than enough to tie them over until surface freight can meet demand.

blueflyer wrote:
As for freighters being available today, I can only wonder why so many passenger aircraft are being used to haul cargo then


Becuase a lot of freight normally goes underfloor on passenger aircraft.

beechnut wrote:
The CDC seems to disagree and recommends them *only* for medical personnel.


No they dont, the CDC also say masks are next to useless, to get protection they specify close fitting respirators. Even then they dont give 100% protection.

zeke wrote:
I was addressing the mask issue.


No you were not,m you were justifying their methods because they were only carrying masks. There is absolutely no reason why they could not have done the charters with belly freight and more frequent trips.

dr1980 wrote:
I would assume the airlines have figured out this is more efficient, and if they’re flying on contract to the Canadian government, this is what was needed to meet the terms of the contract.


Bingo, put the lives of the crew and aircraft at risk to get some more dollars,
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Lofty
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:03 am

Less flights = Less flight crews means more crew laid off or at home.
 
tommyy
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:38 pm

Saw a Volga Dneper IL76 at SWF a few days ago, what a rare sight

I also read in another forum that the AN-225 has been ferrying supplies from China to WAW
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:34 pm

KL 74M returning to the sky on April 14th for AMS - PEK run
Source: https://www.flightstats.com/v2/flight-d ... 1036101337
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:03 pm

DL 772 running back and forth ORD-FRA-ORD as flts DL 3340 / 3341 since 3-April. Cargo, or repatriation?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n866da
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
Ishrion
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:56 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
DL 772 running back and forth ORD-FRA-ORD as flts DL 3340 / 3341 since 3-April. Cargo, or repatriation?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n866da


Cargo.
 
trex8
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:50 pm

BA777FO wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Kilopond wrote:

Check the IATA price monitor - :lol: to see how bad your estimate was ;)

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/ec ... l-monitor/

that's price at refinery, whats the price when they pump it into a plane at an airport is what I think is useful. Im sure the 1.80/gallon for regular I put in my car wasn't 1.80 at the refinery either.

here's FBO prices in Chicago area, plug in your local airport
Jet A prices within 35 miles of KORD
Airport / FBO
Jet A
$2.55—$7.07
average $4.57
https://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

someone in the industry has to have an idea.


Many airlines will be hedged (although I know some notable US airlines have avoided that) so not all will be benefiting from the lower price.

However, with oil at $60-70 per barrel typically JetA/Jet A1 was about $500-$600 per metric tonne. With oil at half the price it won't quite halve the cost/metric tonne but I'd be surprised if many airlines on the open market are paying any more than $300-$400 per metric tonne.


For sure some airlines may have got great contracts (or terrible previously hedged ones) with the recent price drop. But is that $300-400/metric tonne wholesale , or is that the cost once its pumped into the plane?
If I charter an airliner and fly to a major airport today, about how much is the fuel they pump into the tanks costing today? Those FBO costs are all over the place $2.55 to 7.07. At $300/tonne . I calculate that's 92c/USG. So some FBOs have only a 2.5x markup and others several times that . I understand with FBOs, you may be at the mercy of a monopoly. And I assume that 92c/USG is before local taxes. As someone living near Chicago I remember the uproar when IIRC United (or maybe it was AA) was found to have set up an empty office in a Chicago suburb for the sole purpose of getting around paying high City of Chicago/Cook County fuel taxes they would have otherwise have had to pay at ORD if their office buying fuel was in the city!
What is the true fuel cost for an airline, ballpark numbers as I understand eg UA could have contracted with Shell for a trillion gallons this next year at x price for the fuel whic is a fraction someone else can get . Because I doubt that 92c/gallon is what the charter guy will pay or even a majors corprorate planners are using for a specific trip cost today to decide if a specific cargo flight is going to be profitable.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:25 pm

OB1504 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
mark787 wrote:
At JFK, there is a huge backlog of freight for Europe, mostly badly needed medical supplies and medical equipment that needs to be sent urgently. I am surprised that AA or DL haven't used any of the flights out of JFK yet. Where I work, our warehouse is jammed packed, and in addition to having a huge increase in imports from China. Airlines need to be a little more creative and put more of their planes in service and start using the belly space to make some money and help move the needed supplies to badly affected countries. Fuel is at it's lowest now, and rates are through the roof just to move freight, and customers are paying premium prices to get it moved.

i suspect that unions in the U.S. make this extremely difficult which is why we see U.S. carriers being slow to do this. Why go thru the trouble when you can just ask uncle Sam for 50 billion $.


Why would the unions make this difficult? The airlines already shipped cargo before. The only difference now is that there just won’t be any passengers to go with it.


agreed, don't really see this as a union issue, but more of an issue with the FAA and them certifying this option.
 
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Laulau
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:35 pm

Just noticed a DL 8874 enroute HNL-PPG. Was wondering if it was a cargo flight or repatriation?
 
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Antaras
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Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 am

Boarding in 2020, Vietjet say hi.
I wonder how many tons of cargo can those A321neos hold?
Image

Image
Seems that all seats were removed.
https://vietnambiz.vn/vietjet-air-khai-thac-10-chuyen-bay-cho-hang-hoa-moi-ngay-chuyen-cho-mien-phi-bac-si-vat-tu-chong-dich-covid-19-20200414100936144.htm
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516575
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:16 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:45 am

Antaras wrote:
Boarding in 2020, Vietjet say hi.
I wonder how many tons of cargo can those A321neos hold?
Image

Image
Seems that all seats were removed.
https://vietnambiz.vn/vietjet-air-khai-thac-10-chuyen-bay-cho-hang-hoa-moi-ngay-chuyen-cho-mien-phi-bac-si-vat-tu-chong-dich-covid-19-20200414100936144.htm


No, it looks like the boxes have been placed on the seats and then the netting over the top.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 604
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:47 am

travel748 wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Boarding in 2020, Vietjet say hi.
I wonder how many tons of cargo can those A321neos hold?
Image

Image
Seems that all seats were removed.
https://vietnambiz.vn/vietjet-air-khai-thac-10-chuyen-bay-cho-hang-hoa-moi-ngay-chuyen-cho-mien-phi-bac-si-vat-tu-chong-dich-covid-19-20200414100936144.htm


No, it looks like the boxes have been placed on the seats and then the netting over the top.


Yup. And no boxes have been placed in the row with the emergency exit windows.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:47 am

trex8 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
trex8 wrote:
that's price at refinery, whats the price when they pump it into a plane at an airport is what I think is useful. Im sure the 1.80/gallon for regular I put in my car wasn't 1.80 at the refinery either.

here's FBO prices in Chicago area, plug in your local airport
Jet A prices within 35 miles of KORD
Airport / FBO
Jet A
$2.55—$7.07
average $4.57
https://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

someone in the industry has to have an idea.


Many airlines will be hedged (although I know some notable US airlines have avoided that) so not all will be benefiting from the lower price.

However, with oil at $60-70 per barrel typically JetA/Jet A1 was about $500-$600 per metric tonne. With oil at half the price it won't quite halve the cost/metric tonne but I'd be surprised if many airlines on the open market are paying any more than $300-$400 per metric tonne.


For sure some airlines may have got great contracts (or terrible previously hedged ones) with the recent price drop. But is that $300-400/metric tonne wholesale , or is that the cost once its pumped into the plane?
If I charter an airliner and fly to a major airport today, about how much is the fuel they pump into the tanks costing today? Those FBO costs are all over the place $2.55 to 7.07. At $300/tonne . I calculate that's 92c/USG. So some FBOs have only a 2.5x markup and others several times that . I understand with FBOs, you may be at the mercy of a monopoly. And I assume that 92c/USG is before local taxes. As someone living near Chicago I remember the uproar when IIRC United (or maybe it was AA) was found to have set up an empty office in a Chicago suburb for the sole purpose of getting around paying high City of Chicago/Cook County fuel taxes they would have otherwise have had to pay at ORD if their office buying fuel was in the city!
What is the true fuel cost for an airline, ballpark numbers as I understand eg UA could have contracted with Shell for a trillion gallons this next year at x price for the fuel whic is a fraction someone else can get . Because I doubt that 92c/gallon is what the charter guy will pay or even a majors corprorate planners are using for a specific trip cost today to decide if a specific cargo flight is going to be profitable.


That'll be the price paid by the airline. There'll be local variations such as it'll be cheaper in Bahrain or Houston than it will at somewhere relatively remote like St. Kitts but at $70 per barrel it was translanting to a price of about $600 per tonne for the airlines. At $35 per barrel it won't quite halve because transport/delivery/refinery costs still exist but I'd be surprised if unhedged airlines aren't paying about $300-400 per metric tonne at the moment. Also, most our flying, certainly everything I do, is international, so not sure if local taxes are applicable to fuel for international carriage in the same way as they might be for domestic flying.
 
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keesje
Posts: 13769
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:31 am

I assume maindeck cargo transport instead of seats was exempted from maindeck regulations for specific known goods, with known fire risk properties and weights.
Bulky, light weight goods, maybe fire resistant bags in each box. Fire regulations could be met with an approved procedure for scheduled, documented, visual checks.
Serious fire extinguishers could be carried in the galley, along with oxygen and extra trained crew members. More hazardous, heavy goods could be carried on the cargo deck.
Not saying it the best method, but apparently possible.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airbazar
Posts: 10043
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:10 pm

keesje wrote:
I assume maindeck cargo transport instead of seats was exempted from maindeck regulations for specific known goods, with known fire risk properties and weights.
Bulky, light weight goods, maybe fire resistant bags in each box. Fire regulations could be met with an approved procedure for scheduled, documented, visual checks.
Serious fire extinguishers could be carried in the galley, along with oxygen and extra trained crew members. More hazardous, heavy goods could be carried on the cargo deck.
Not saying it the best method, but apparently possible.

This article alludes to what restrictions and measures have been put in place to allow cargo in the cabin:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 6ecd6c6283
 
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keesje
Posts: 13769
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:08 pm

airbazar wrote:
keesje wrote:
I assume maindeck cargo transport instead of seats was exempted from maindeck regulations for specific known goods, with known fire risk properties and weights.
Bulky, light weight goods, maybe fire resistant bags in each box. Fire regulations could be met with an approved procedure for scheduled, documented, visual checks.
Serious fire extinguishers could be carried in the galley, along with oxygen and extra trained crew members. More hazardous, heavy goods could be carried on the cargo deck.
Not saying it the best method, but apparently possible.

This article alludes to what restrictions and measures have been put in place to allow cargo in the cabin:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 6ecd6c6283


Thanks for the link, confirms most of the assumptions.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:31 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
I was once told by a Cargo Director at United, If an airplane flew a full Belly load of freight? the passengers were pure profit, but along for the ride because the freight was paying the bills. For many years United was the 3rd largest freight hauler in the USA behind FEDEX and UPS, and didn't have any dedicated freighters. I haven't read Air Transport world Magazine since I retired so it would be good to know what they're doing these days.


When UPS was starting up in the early 80's they leased United Cargo Gateways at certain airports. When UPS brought the airline inhouse they took over some of those gateways. Just some useless information :)
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

Re: Will cargo airlines increase capacity to replace lost belly cargo capacity?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:45 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
samuelmanuel wrote:
Will cargo airlines increase capacity to make up for all the lost belly cargo due to passenger flight cancillations?

Yes - UPS is adding MD-11 segments to/from HKG. The next few months could be a boon for cargo operators at the expense of the pax carriers.

well? UPS already has a large freighter fleet in active service or in short term storage. They or FEDEX could return some of those airplanes in a month or so depending on their condition. Because the conversion from pax to freighter? is not quick easy or cheap. Airborne used to load via the main cabin door years ago with specially designed main Cabin freight pods but to even duplicate that configuration? Could take well over a month per airplane with crews working around the clock.
this whole thing might well be over by that time as there is no guarantee it won't be over..


UPS does not have any aircraft in storage. 3 to 5 MD-11's were purchased from Lufthansa. They are in or heading to SAT for maintenance. I've been retired, but still in the loop. My exact figures could be off one or two.
 
UPS Pilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:17 pm

Re: Will airlines operate cargo only fleets again?

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:58 pm

USAirKid wrote:
EWRandMDW wrote:
Once upon a time Boeing offered 727-100 and 737-200 (maybe other models?) aircraft as a QC variant, with full-size cargo doors behind the main boarding door and the ability to be converted in relatively short order from primarily passenger to pure cargo configuration. UA had a subfleet of each to supplement DC8F cargo planes. KL and BR and AS among others operated Boeing planes dedicated to 1/2 cargo and 1/2 passengers in the main cabin. It's too late to build planes like this now, but perhaps they should be considered as options for the future? The Covid-19 crisis will eventually pass, but others will happen sooner or later.


5X used to do this with their 727-200s they'd fly cargo during the week, and on the weekend they'd put seats in the planes and fly charters. I know one of the former flight attendants of this operation. One of the issues they ran into was that while the palletized seats, etc were supposed to be universal and fit in any plane, the 727-200s were irregular enough that eventually they dedicated each set of pallet-seats to a specific plane, just so they could consistently fit.


UPS only did this with 5 727-100QC's not 200's. The seats were specific to the aircraft and were not supposed to be universal. UPS suspended ops in 2001 with 100 retirements and LCC's using twins and being more competitive on the charter flights,
https://youtu.be/Z2HJjPtPWvc
 
mark1484
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:57 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:15 pm

Good to see some old, classic types keeping busy;

Rada Airlines IL62 EW-450TR
Transaviaexport B747-300 EW-465TQ
Geo-Sky B747-200s 4L-GEM/N/O

Plus the DC10s of Fedex and the numerous B727s,IL76s and the odd IL18!
 
tjerome
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:03 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:59 pm

DL will now be operating daily cargo-only flights out of PVG. 4x a week DTW-ICN-PVG and 3x a week LAX-ICN-PVG. Stops in ICN both directions to prevent crews from overnighting in PVG.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4482
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:47 am

American Airlines will be operating a series of cargo flights between MIA-EZE and DFW-EZE. First one from MIA is AA9434, scheduled to leave this evening and operated by N797AN, a 777-223ER. Will overnight at EZE and return to MIA on the morning of 16/4 allowing time for crew rest.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
Harvestman
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 2:48 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:45 am

mark1484 wrote:
Good to see some old, classic types keeping busy;

Rada Airlines IL62 EW-450TR
Transaviaexport B747-300 EW-465TQ
Geo-Sky B747-200s 4L-GEM/N/O

Plus the DC10s of Fedex and the numerous B727s,IL76s and the odd IL18!

How about N724CK still pulling its weight at 49 years old - appears to be doing CVG-ROC for DHL for the time being.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4702
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: COVID-19 Cargo Discussion Thread (Cargo Operators and Passenger Airlines Operating Cargo Only Flights)

Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:15 am

trex8 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Air Canada is reconfiguring 3 77W's to cater for freight, the first one is already completed with 422 seats removed. The new reconfigured aircraft can 89.63 tonnes which is the equivalent to 9 million masks

Currently around 20 cargo flights are planned per week

Image

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-04 ... es-and-Nec. essary-Cargo


Of which only maybe 4 1/2 tons may be going on the main deck if Im reading the placard in the pic in this link correctly, 3 positions each cabin for 969Lbs
https://blog.wandr.me/2020/04/air-canad ... aign=26501

And? They're getting the freight in and securing it HOW? there are no tiedowns to secure the pallet positions and the bulkheads in the Pax compartment are not structural. Hell! the carpet isn't even removed. This could be a picture of an airplane at the beginning of an overhaul or at the end of an overhaul before the seats are installed,
This is NO proof of what the narrative stated. Let's see a picture when the airplane is loaded and we'll see how the freight is secured. and to what. 00
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