Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 18
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:33 pm

longhauler wrote:
There will be no Rouge flying in April at all. Rouge routes will be flown by mainline flights.


That's what one can call a big change in business. I wonder how the industry around the world will look once the virus get overcome or at least seriously diminished.
 
kameleonten
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:58 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:03 pm

beechnut wrote:
I'm skeptical it's Nolinor. This news item from today suggests it will be a 77W, high-density version:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... ir-canada/


It was Nolinor: https://simpleflying.com/canada-737-rescue/

Why would Canada send an old 737 on a multi stop journey rather than take one of the probably multiple available Air Canada or Westjet long haul aircraft?? Even with additional crew and fuel, this should be a no brainer.
 
User avatar
northstardc4m
Posts: 3400
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:51 pm

Some of The E175s seem to be headed to Muskoka YQA for storage... 4? there in the past 48 hours all as KV7114, 7116 or 7118.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:44 pm

kameleonten wrote:
beechnut wrote:
I'm skeptical it's Nolinor. This news item from today suggests it will be a 77W, high-density version:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... ir-canada/


It was Nolinor: https://simpleflying.com/canada-737-rescue/

Why would Canada send an old 737 on a multi stop journey rather than take one of the probably multiple available Air Canada or Westjet long haul aircraft?? Even with additional crew and fuel, this should be a no brainer.


The Norlinor flight was a different flight. An AC B777 is being used...
 
dr1980
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:48 pm

Any idea if the inactive aircraft are being ferried to the desert or if they simply being placed throughout Air Canada’s network?

I’d also be interested in knowing why the 732 charter...that would be a long, noisy ride home, even for an avgeek (I guess depending how dedicated you are)
Dave/CYHZ
 
jimbo737
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:11 pm

When cash preservation is the order of the day, why would AC park the lowest cost element of its operation, (Rouge, with all those “free airplanes”), and keep the high cost operation active?
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:51 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
When cash preservation is the order of the day, why would AC park the lowest cost element of its operation, (Rouge, with all those “free airplanes”), and keep the high cost operation active?


Because the majority of the Rouge operation is north south flying, I’m sure they done a cost assessment of the whole operation overall.

Plus cargo operations and capacity
Last edited by Whiteguy on Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2852
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:52 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
When cash preservation is the order of the day, why would AC park the lowest cost element of its operation, (Rouge, with all those “free airplanes”), and keep the high cost operation active?


My guess would be crew seniority and fleet simplicity. There are thousands of mainline crew more senior than the most senior Rouge F/As. I’d imagine junior mainline staff will be on temporary furlough too.

When loads are probably going to be under 40%, Rouge won’t be of much benefit cost-wise. Heck, AC could theoretically operate most A220, 319 and 320 flights with only 2 F/As onboard as few of these flights will have > 100 pax on them.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:24 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
When cash preservation is the order of the day, why would AC park the lowest cost element of its operation, (Rouge, with all those “free airplanes”), and keep the high cost operation active?

The same reason that Sunwing and Air Transat are shutting down completely .... the low yield, leisure market simply has disappeared.

Internally, the move makes sense. Fly three class premium wide bodies around, half full, filled to the gunwales with freight, of which there is a lot. By the same stroke though, parking “free airplanes” makes sense too.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:36 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
When cash preservation is the order of the day, why would AC park the lowest cost element of its operation, (Rouge, with all those “free airplanes”), and keep the high cost operation active?


Jimbo, maybe you're not aware, but 767s and old narrowbodies are expensive to operate in terms of maintenance, fuel. The idea is to fly your most efficient assets, which are 787s, 220s.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:39 pm

If keeping a limited sched operating at the lowest possible cost is the name of the game, as it is at every airline on the planet these days, then surely substituting Rouge’s simple operation, with somewhat juniority wages in the back end, more efficient contracts for the front end crew and the advantage of all those old, yet “free” airplanes flying on today’s cheap jet fuel would seem to make the most sense. Airplanes can fly anywhere, and most of Rouge’s flying is based at YYZ anyway, AC’s core hub.

Why continue on with high cost aircraft and the highest cost crews with as many as 3 classes of service in these circumstances? What’s the point?

A friend sent me a photo of the baggage belts at ORD this morning at about 11am local. There was one guy there. I’d post the pic if I could. It was surreal. Only he and his deadheading co pilot were in J. 15 in the rest of the aircraft.

The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it when you’ve got Rouge there that can do what currently needs to be done, with a nice mixed fleet of 40 narrow bodies and 25 WB’s, which together with some Jazz aircraft, is probably just about all that will be necessary in a few weeks as things drag to a halt, hopefully for a very short time for ALL involved.

Or is it that Rouge, in fact, may not exactly be as low cost as previously advertised?

If that is the case, and given what the smartest run airline on the planet has already conceded once this mess is over and done with, will Rouge be back, or simply folded into the core operation?

Good luck to all. We’ve never been in a mud puddle as deep as this one.
 
runway23
Posts: 2337
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:49 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it when you’ve got Rouge there that can do what currently needs to be done, with a nice mixed fleet of 40 narrow bodies and 25 WB’s, which together with some Jazz aircraft, is probably just about all that will be necessary in a few weeks as things drag to a halt, hopefully for a very short time for ALL involved.

Or is it that Rouge, in fact, may not exactly be as low cost as previously advertised?

If that is the case, and given what the smartest run airline on the planet has already conceded once this mess is over and done with, will Rouge be back, or simply folded into the core operation?


77W/787/333 carry more freight than the 763 and are more versatile. The 763s are also owned so have little cost to be parked.

It's growingly clear that rouge won't survive this crisis, their Airbus fleet will transition back to mainline and the 737Max will probably never fly again for AC.

Where exactly TS fits into AC at this point is questionable and I guess will depend on how long this crisis lasts.
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:19 am

runway23 wrote:

Where exactly TS fits into AC at this point is questionable and I guess will depend on how long this crisis lasts.


Given that TS's share price is way below the AC offer, it would seem to be a wiser strategy to let TS fail and pick the remaining meat off the carcass in the form of their best aircraft (mostly: the A321LRs). That, plus the Rouge A321s, would effectively kill off the MAX (good riddance!) at bargain prices.

Rouge: 14 A321s and 5 A320s that could be transferred over. The A320s are much newer than AC's, and the A321s are all late-build CEOs.
TS: 5 A321s plus 6 A321LRs (3 delivered, 3 on order). The LRs could do the transatlantic routes that the MAX were supposed to do.

That's 25 possible A321s for mainline, plus 5 A320s (one is on order, used Mexican aircraft). That's enough to retire the oldest A320s and replace the MAX. With the A220s coming on board, probably no need for the A319s or Embraers. I think this crisis will result in an overall global capacity reduction until growth rates return to normal. Good opportunity for housecleaning.

Gee, AC has 24 grounded 737MAX on the property, plus a bunch undelivered. There's probably little appetite for new orders for quite some time after this crisis is over so moving the Rouge birds to Mainline and picking up the Transat aircraft at bargain prices would seem like the bargain of the century. I also think the MAX career at Air Canada will be mercifully short. Maybe if the RTS happens, AC could peddle them off to WestJet or Sunwing.

Beech
 
Thomaas
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:22 am

jimbo737 wrote:
If keeping a limited sched operating at the lowest possible cost is the name of the game, as it is at every airline on the planet these days, then surely substituting Rouge’s simple operation, with somewhat juniority wages in the back end, more efficient contracts for the front end crew and the advantage of all those old, yet “free” airplanes flying on today’s cheap jet fuel would seem to make the most sense. Airplanes can fly anywhere, and most of Rouge’s flying is based at YYZ anyway, AC’s core hub.

Why continue on with high cost aircraft and the highest cost crews with as many as 3 classes of service in these circumstances? What’s the point?

A friend sent me a photo of the baggage belts at ORD this morning at about 11am local. There was one guy there. I’d post the pic if I could. It was surreal. Only he and his deadheading co pilot were in J. 15 in the rest of the aircraft.

The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it when you’ve got Rouge there that can do what currently needs to be done, with a nice mixed fleet of 40 narrow bodies and 25 WB’s, which together with some Jazz aircraft, is probably just about all that will be necessary in a few weeks as things drag to a halt, hopefully for a very short time for ALL involved.

Or is it that Rouge, in fact, may not exactly be as low cost as previously advertised?

If that is the case, and given what the smartest run airline on the planet has already conceded once this mess is over and done with, will Rouge be back, or simply folded into the core operation?

Good luck to all. We’ve never been in a mud puddle as deep as this one.

As mentioned earlier, you have to furlough flight attendants by order of seniority, meaning the company couldn't just keep Rouge flying while laying off all of AC's FAs. Air Canada has bases in YUL, YYZ, and YVR for pilots, add in YYC for flight attendants, giving it much greater scheduling flexibility to operate both domestic and international flights as opposed to Rouge's YUL and YYZ bases. The cost differential doesn't matter when you have to pay aircraft leases and partially pay pilots, you might as well fly your most efficient aircraft and ground the rest. You'll notice that all TATL and TPAC flying is on the 787-9 for the month of April. Interestingly they have chosen to operate the 97-seat E190s into lots of US markets, which likely indicates they expect continued depressed demand on that front. Why send out 282-seat 767s and 132-seat A319s when you won't be able to fill them anyways?
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:52 am

jimbo737 wrote:

The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.

Out of interest, I looked at loads over the next two weeks and well into April, and frankly was rather surprised. It seems that J and W cabins are almost full on most long trans con domestic flights. US flights are a disaster in Y but J to destinations like LAX and SFO are still pretty strong.

Same thing with Europe. Stronger in J and W than Y. Not enough to pay the bills, but still reasonable. On reflection though, it’s not really a surprise. With discretionary and leisure travel halted, only the business traveller is left. Perhaps corporate policy is changing allowing more premium cabin travel for social distancing.

It appears that empty “freight” flights are being flown as well, as cargo demand remains very strong.

All this in mind therefore, it seems the Rouge configuration would not be suitable at all. Apparently those smarter than me agree.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2852
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:50 am

longhauler wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.

Out of interest, I looked at loads over the next two weeks and well into April, and frankly was rather surprised. It seems that J and W cabins are almost full on most long trans con domestic flights. US flights are a disaster in Y but J to destinations like LAX and SFO are still pretty strong.

Same thing with Europe. Stronger in J and W than Y. Not enough to pay the bills, but still reasonable. On reflection though, it’s not really a surprise. With discretionary and leisure travel halted, only the business traveller is left. Perhaps corporate policy is changing allowing more premium cabin travel for social distancing.

It appears that empty “freight” flights are being flown as well, as cargo demand remains very strong.

All this in mind therefore, it seems the Rouge configuration would not be suitable at all. Apparently those smarter than me agree.


What impact will the travel ban to/from the USA for everything but “essential” travel have on AC’s skeletal remaining transborder ops? Additional reductions? Cargo only? UA are stopping all transborder on April 1. Not sure yet what DL and AA are doing.

FWIW, the 763 mainline is showing up in April on YYZ to LAX & SFO. Take that with a huge grain of salt though.
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:54 am

longhauler wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:

The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.

Out of interest, I looked at loads over the next two weeks and well into April, and frankly was rather surprised. It seems that J and W cabins are almost full on most long trans con domestic flights. US flights are a disaster in Y but J to destinations like LAX and SFO are still pretty strong.

Same thing with Europe. Stronger in J and W than Y. Not enough to pay the bills, but still reasonable. On reflection though, it’s not really a surprise. With discretionary and leisure travel halted, only the business traveller is left. Perhaps corporate policy is changing allowing more premium cabin travel for social distancing.


I also have access to AC loads and I can attest to the exact opposite. Very little J traffic on any of the major transcon routes that I spot checked past April 1. YYZ/YVR is about the one exception. What's left of the transatlantic network is abysmal too. Very very little J traffic.

Past about April 24th is when you start to see things recover. That said, I also have a personal trip on April 25th and a work trip shortly thereafter. I'm still waiting to decide on whether to go ahead with these trips, so I imagine many others are in the same boat as me.

Really sad to see things in this state.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:21 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:

I also have access to AC loads and I can attest to the exact opposite.

Past about April 24th is when you start to see things recover. That said, I also have a personal trip on April 25th and a work trip shortly thereafter. I'm still waiting to decide on whether to go ahead with these trips, so I imagine many others are in the same boat as me.

It really depends at what data one is looking. While looking at inventory sold may be accurate the day of, or possibly a couple days in advance, as you get further and further away from the departure date, it becomes less accurate.

I wasn’t looking at seats open, as opposed to advanced bookings. Namely, how much confidence do you place in a Basic Economy booking made 8 months ago, against a J or W booking made yesterday. What the data are indicating is that new bookings are favouring premium cabins. That is hard to tell when simply looking at open seats.

You mention April 24th as a “recovery”. In fact, that was the original cut off date Air Canada was allowing for changes or cancellations without penalty. It’s not a surprise therefore that open seats are less after that date .... but not likely accurate. That is why you see some flights 40 oversold in Economy, there is not a lot of confidence in those bookings.

As an employee trying to non-rev, it would be impossible to gauge. But, looking at advanced booking and trending data, it makes sense why flights and equipment are planned.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3002
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:13 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

77W C-FIVX was flown as AC7066 YYZ-YHZ yesterday, and today it's on its way as AC7050 YHZ-CMN. Any reason for the Halifax stop?.


Just a guess here, but it might be to limit the total flight time, especially for cabin crew, which most likely operated both outbound and inbound flights. There were also 4 pilots on board, based on the twitter pic of the crew. In/out of CMN, no crew left behind.

https://twitter.com/AirCanada/status/12 ... 16/photo/1
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
yzfElite
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:37 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
beechnut wrote:
I'm skeptical it's Nolinor. This news item from today suggests it will be a 77W, high-density version:

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... ir-canada/


77W C-FIVX was flown as AC7066 YYZ-YHZ yesterday, and today it's on its way as AC7050 YHZ-CMN. Any reason for the Halifax stop?

Currently, 77W C-FNNU and C-FITW have been ferried to YMX March 20th and 19th respectively, while C-FNNQ is at SIN since March 8th.

77L C-FIUJ was flown HND-SIN March 16th a couple of days after operating AC1.


I suspect YHZ has a huge amount of seafood now stuck there unable to get to Europe and likely lucrative enough to warrant a stop to pick it up.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:38 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Just a guess here, but it might be to limit the total flight time, especially for cabin crew, which most likely operated both outbound and inbound flights. There were also 4 pilots on board, based on the twitter pic of the crew. In/out of CMN, no crew left behind.


Oh yes, that could be a good guess indeed if no one was left behind. Flight time to CMN was 5:07, then 3:42 on the ground and 7:41 to YUL. That's more than 16 hours.

Tomorrow, there's another flight to CMN from YHZ.
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:02 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
Or is it that Rouge, in fact, may not exactly be as low cost as previously advertised?


If you've got paid-for assets that you can park for basically parking fees and the cost of pickling the ship until better times, and assets that you still are paying down capital or lease costs, which makes more sense to operate? ISTM you want the assets you're paying for working their tails off in order to feed the creditors and hopefully keep some cash flowing. Add to that that they're newer and more efficient to operate than old 767s, *and* have more cargo capacity (especially the 777Ws huge belly) that can help offset the lack of passengers, then keeping mainline alive while pickling Rouge makes perfect sense.

Moreover Rouge's A319s, 320s and 321s don't cost much more to operate than AC's, except for the Rouge 320s and 321s being newer and probably needing less Mx. So it might make sense to park the older ones and transfer Rouge's newer ones over to mainline. The beancounters will have sorted all this out. You can be sure AC beancounters have likely figured out how to lose the least money possible in this crisis.

Beech
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:36 pm

longhauler wrote:
It really depends at what data one is looking. While looking at inventory sold may be accurate the day of, or possibly a couple days in advance, as you get further and further away from the departure date, it becomes less accurate.


longhauler wrote:
Out of interest, I looked at loads over the next two weeks and well into April, and frankly was rather surprised. It seems that J and W cabins are almost full on most long trans con domestic flights. US flights are a disaster in Y but J to destinations like LAX and SFO are still pretty strong.


Just like you I was looking at loads over the next two weeks.

Your statement was factually incorrect and misleading to readers here. No route in the AC network has J and W cabins 'almost full' beyond April 1. The exact opposite is true, flights are nearly empty in J and W on the routes I spot checked (including your LAX/SFO examples). I'll happily be corrected if you provide some routes you think are 'almost full' in J/W.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
Just like you I was looking at loads over the next two weeks.

Actually I wasn’t looking at the loads. I was looking at advanced bookings and cancellation data. I said “loads” as it would be difficult to describe the data I was using.

While looking at employee allowable information only give a snapshot part of the picture. I was looking at the whole picture.

While it was not my intent “to mislead the readers”, (who I am guessing don’t really give a rat’s ass), I was answering the message thread subject wondering why Air Canada chose to not fly Rouge next month. With advanced bookings trending toward premium cabins and strong cargo demand, it makes sense to use primarily the 787.

As noted, other than Rouge, all types in the fleet though, continue to be used.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:13 pm

longhauler wrote:
Actually I wasn’t looking at the loads. I was looking at advanced bookings and cancellation data. I said “loads” as it would be difficult to describe the data I was using.


You mean the same bookings that (if booked before March 31) can be cancelled without penalty? Sure, business travellers will still book because they're not the ones paying for it, their companies are! That doesn't mean they won't cancel closer to the date and use their credit for future travel when the situation improves.

Even my own anecdote, I have travel booked on and April 25th I still haven't cancelled because I'm waiting to see how the situation progresses.

While it was not my intent “to mislead the readers”, (who I am guessing don’t really give a rat’s ass), I was answering the message thread subject wondering why Air Canada chose to not fly Rouge next month. With advanced bookings trending toward premium cabins and strong cargo demand, it makes sense to use primarily the 787.

As noted, other than Rouge, all types in the fleet though, continue to be used.


Your point was to try and contradict Jimbo's very correct argument that there was no demand for premium class. Both you and I can see that his argument is true yet you're trying to mislead with a factually incorrect statement.

jimbo737 wrote:
The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


longhauler wrote:
Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:18 pm

Wow. I give up.

Sometimes the Anal Alices on this site make it not worth the effort. It’s probably why most of the “old guard” no longer frequent this site.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:21 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
AC have the domestic and international portions of their April schedule live. I found the following aircraft types in service:

Mainline
E90 - mostly on YYZ-YOW, but on a few others
220 - all flights touch YUL
319
320
321
333 - including 1x YYZ-YHZ - lobster hauler?
789
77W

Rouge
319 - to YQT and YQM from YYZ

Express
DH1 - yep still found it active in Alberta, albeit barely
DH3 - all in the East
DH4
CR2
CR9

So no 763s (both mainline and Rouge), 788s, 77Ls anywhere that I can see. I would disregard transborder at this point. E75s show up on transborder...which is where they mostly are anyways. I would imagine some E75 flying will continue.

Lots of Express towns suspended. YLW keeps mainline 1x 320 to YVR, while YQB-YYZ has a mainline E90 or 320 on some days.


I would expect the 77W and possibly 789 to also be doing some belly cargo only flights. Down in the states, American operates its first cargo-only flight in 36 years using a B77W a few days ago. In Canada, I would expect a few YVR-YUL or YVR-YYZ cargo runs on the B77W, along with some cargo-only flights to Asia. With no passengers, one can load up on the cargo capacity. (That said, for YUL, it may make more sense for an A333 to do that cargo run if there's a YUL-YVR run.)
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2852
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:14 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Actually I wasn’t looking at the loads. I was looking at advanced bookings and cancellation data. I said “loads” as it would be difficult to describe the data I was using.


You mean the same bookings that (if booked before March 31) can be cancelled without penalty? Sure, business travellers will still book because they're not the ones paying for it, their companies are! That doesn't mean they won't cancel closer to the date and use their credit for future travel when the situation improves.

Even my own anecdote, I have travel booked on and April 25th I still haven't cancelled because I'm waiting to see how the situation progresses.

While it was not my intent “to mislead the readers”, (who I am guessing don’t really give a rat’s ass), I was answering the message thread subject wondering why Air Canada chose to not fly Rouge next month. With advanced bookings trending toward premium cabins and strong cargo demand, it makes sense to use primarily the 787.

As noted, other than Rouge, all types in the fleet though, continue to be used.


Your point was to try and contradict Jimbo's very correct argument that there was no demand for premium class. Both you and I can see that his argument is true yet you're trying to mislead with a factually incorrect statement.

jimbo737 wrote:
The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


longhauler wrote:
Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.


Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.

Now getting back on topic, with the additional trims AC made yesterday, I can no longer find any April DH1 ops in the online schedule.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:21 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Actually I wasn’t looking at the loads. I was looking at advanced bookings and cancellation data. I said “loads” as it would be difficult to describe the data I was using.


You mean the same bookings that (if booked before March 31) can be cancelled without penalty? Sure, business travellers will still book because they're not the ones paying for it, their companies are! That doesn't mean they won't cancel closer to the date and use their credit for future travel when the situation improves.

Even my own anecdote, I have travel booked on and April 25th I still haven't cancelled because I'm waiting to see how the situation progresses.

While it was not my intent “to mislead the readers”, (who I am guessing don’t really give a rat’s ass), I was answering the message thread subject wondering why Air Canada chose to not fly Rouge next month. With advanced bookings trending toward premium cabins and strong cargo demand, it makes sense to use primarily the 787.

As noted, other than Rouge, all types in the fleet though, continue to be used.


Your point was to try and contradict Jimbo's very correct argument that there was no demand for premium class. Both you and I can see that his argument is true yet you're trying to mislead with a factually incorrect statement.

jimbo737 wrote:
The point is, there’s no demand for premium class. So why operate it and incur the expense of provisioning and crewing for it.


longhauler wrote:
Westjet currently may not be able to attract premium cabin passengers, but Air Canada doesn’t appear to have any problems there.


Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.

Now getting back on topic, with the additional trims AC made yesterday, I can no longer find any April DH1 ops in the online schedule.


Pretty sure the DH1s are done. YXH and YQL routes were cut last week as of April 1st. Not sure what else they were doing.
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:33 pm

Dominion301 wrote:

Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.


Just to clarify, I have nothing against Longhauler. I find his posts very informative about many aspects, namely the operations side. Like you I appreciate all of his contributions and enjoy the debate it sparks. But I would call anyone out on spreading misinformation that is unequivocally incorrect. In case you can't tell, he and I both have a vested interest in AC remaining a viable employer!

The facts are, AC's loads are very poor across all three cabins and across the entire network. I personally wouldn't be surprised to a further reduction in the flying program announced next week. Some of the routes are simply unviable as per the latest schedule. I see a contraction to just a few transcon routes and maybe a few regional routes, to carry whats left of those wanting to travel and freight.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:42 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.


Just to clarify, I have nothing against Longhauler. I find his posts very informative about many aspects, namely the operations side. Like you I appreciate all of his contributions and enjoy the debate it sparks. But I would call anyone out on spreading misinformation that is unequivocally incorrect. In case you can't tell, he and I both have a vested interest in AC remaining a viable employer!

The facts are, AC's loads are very poor across all three cabins and across the entire network. I personally wouldn't be surprised to a further reduction in the flying program announced next week. Some of the routes are simply unviable as per the latest schedule. I see a contraction to just a few transcon routes and maybe a few regional routes, to carry whats left of those wanting to travel and freight.


So what’s the point in getting in a pissing match then? He’s getting information from a different source, one you don’t have access to, and answering Jimbo! Another one looking for a listing match, and to much time on his hands while in quarantine. AC, like many other airlines, is trying to save their operation while also trying to help get people home while they can. Why question which operation and aircraft they seem fit to use?
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8310
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:43 pm

longhauler wrote:
Wow. I give up.

Sometimes the Anal Alices on this site make it not worth the effort. It’s probably why most of the “old guard” no longer frequent this site.


- your not wrong.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:56 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
So what’s the point in getting in a pissing match then? He’s getting information from a different source, one you don’t have access to, and answering Jimbo! Another one looking for a listing match, and to much time on his hands while in quarantine. AC, like many other airlines, is trying to save their operation while also trying to help get people home while they can. Why question which operation and aircraft they seem fit to use?


I apologize for not toeing the anti-WS sentiment that seems to be prevalent here. Given that many form their opinions on this site from informed posters, I'd rather contribute to the facts than watch individuals spell fiction. But I guess we'll see who's right in the coming weeks.

Quite the contrary, my role is busier than ever because of the ongoing events.
 
User avatar
accargofra
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:23 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:11 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:

I apologize for not toeing the anti-WS sentiment that seems to be prevalent here.


Topic is "Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?" - and not an anti WS thread.
and back to the topic:
The 77W is doing some cargo only flights - same as AA - from Toronto to Europe (FRA/LHR /AMS) on behalf of a freight forwarder.
FRA will see in the new schedule only 788 and 789 for the (sad) times given.

ACcargoFRA
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3190
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:54 pm

accargofra wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:

I apologize for not toeing the anti-WS sentiment that seems to be prevalent here.


Topic is "Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?" - and not an anti WS thread.
and back to the topic:
The 77W is doing some cargo only flights - same as AA - from Toronto to Europe (FRA/LHR /AMS) on behalf of a freight forwarder.
FRA will see in the new schedule only 788 and 789 for the (sad) times given.

ACcargoFRA


How does a flight like this look like? Empty cabin and belly full of cargo?
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:31 pm

I wonder, given the lack of pax, if small parcels could not occupy the overhead bins and under seats within capacity, if the fuel and belly cargo don’t bring weight up to MGTOW, such as volume limited cargo in the belly instead of weight limited?
 
dr1980
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:19 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.


Here here!

On another note, what a weird time we live in...AC hasn’t been able to fly YHZ-LHR in a year due to the MAX fiasco and now we have two flights go YHZ-CMN (not bookable or meant for PAX I know but still, could never have predicted this!)
Dave/CYHZ
 
TObound
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:22 pm

There's a lot of talk of AC ditching the 737 MAX after the crisis. Why would that be the case? I can't see it. They need to replace all the aging Airbii narrowbodies. And the coming in TS narrowbodies don't provide enough. Also, who would take the MAX birds they already have (and have waiting for delivery) in this environment?

I would love to see AC ditch the Max. Not a fan. But I just can't see the business rationale behind it.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:30 pm

TObound wrote:
There's a lot of talk of AC ditching the 737 MAX after the crisis. Why would that be the case? I can't see it. They need to replace all the aging Airbii narrowbodies. And the coming in TS narrowbodies don't provide enough. Also, who would take the MAX birds they already have (and have waiting for delivery) in this environment?

I would love to see AC ditch the Max. Not a fan. But I just can't see the business rationale behind it.


According to planespotters.net, AC has 24 + 14 Max either parked or up for delivery. Air Transat has 15 A321 in the fleet, including three LRs. Rouge has a grand total of 41 A319/320/321s. Since RV will not fly beyond March and depending on how things go with the TS acquisition, AC could theoritically end up with up to 56 Airbus narrow-bodies.
 
User avatar
accargofra
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:23 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:35 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:

How does a flight like this look like? Empty cabin and belly full of cargo?


yes :)
 
User avatar
iseeyyc
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:12 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:35 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Here here!


The phrase is "hear, hear" as in "do you hear what he is saying".
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:29 pm

TObound wrote:
There's a lot of talk of AC ditching the 737 MAX after the crisis. Why would that be the case? I can't see it. They need to replace all the aging Airbii narrowbodies. And the coming in TS narrowbodies don't provide enough. Also, who would take the MAX birds they already have (and have waiting for delivery) in this environment?

I would love to see AC ditch the Max. Not a fan. But I just can't see the business rationale behind it.


See what I wrote in post 35. Between TS and Transat, there's a potential for 25 A321s. Of those, 19 are late-build CEOs, and 6 are brand-new NEO LRs. Plus 5 A320s that are newer than AC's current fleet. In terms of seats, that's not much different than 24 MAX. Those are secure, available, flyable airplanes rather than 24 aircraft that may or may not see their CofA restored.

With 45 A220s coming on eventually (I hope! 4 already delivered), and the likelihood of a greatly reduced market after this crisis is over, I think AC have enough to tide them over and perhaps place some strategic orders for later growth with Airbus (or hypothetically Boeing if they finally come up with something better than the MAX).

Quite frankly I do believe the MAX is dead at AC. But I may be wrong. My opinions are free... you get what you pay for!

Beech
 
PWA732
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:43 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:53 pm

No, the Max is not dead at AC. We are in the process of installing millions of dollars worth of dual HUD's in each aircraft. All 737 pilots are undergoing HUD training in our two simulators in Toronto as we speak. If we were getting rid of them, I see this as adding little value to the frames, as few operators will use them, or need them. Training and installation are both happening right now.

P.
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:05 pm

Sorry I meant between Transat and Rouge...
 
codyul
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:15 pm

beechnut wrote:
Sorry I meant between Transat and Rouge...

Definitely think it's possible! But I feel much will change for this Transat deal. Rov will slyly claim that with world events as they are, that Transat is not with 710mill and he will express cold feet. Likely Legault will ask for a deal to get done as Transat will suffer harder than AC from this crisis. AC will get them at a better rate and with whatever conditions.
Also a free opinion (liked that one: you get what you pay for)
By the way, I operated two transatlantic this last week. Half full outbounds and 3/4+ on the inbounds.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
beechnut
Posts: 934
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:22 am

PWA732 wrote:
No, the Max is not dead at AC. We are in the process of installing millions of dollars worth of dual HUD's in each aircraft. All 737 pilots are undergoing HUD training in our two simulators in Toronto as we speak. If we were getting rid of them, I see this as adding little value to the frames, as few operators will use them, or need them. Training and installation are both happening right now.

P.


Unless of course it is Boeing that bails...
 
User avatar
CrewBunk
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:12 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:47 am

I just read an article in the Wall Street Journal talking about no-show factors that backs up what longhauler was trying to get at.

Airlines are noticing that stale economy bookings have a no-show factor approaching 50%! While last minute bookings of First, Business and Premium Economy have a higher chance of showing up. They called it confidence level. With that confidence level higher for higher fares, airlines are making sure there is room to accommodate them.

The missing piece of the puzzle is what is tallied after the flight closes. How many showed up? When did they book? Was everyone that wanted to travel able to be carried? This information is not open to the public and probably not even to most airline employees. Air Canada’s choice of aircraft parking would reflect this information. Information unable to be determined just by seeing seats sold in the future.

I have always enjoyed the battle between Jimbo and longhauler as they each defend their airlines position. It is fun as they jab at each other but it’s always respectful. It looks like after Jimbos statement about lack of business bookings at WestJet that longhauler was looking at this information about confidence levels and saying Air Canada was not seeing the same thing.
 
shoelessjoe
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:27 pm

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:32 am

Anecdotally a mainline A320 and a Rouge A319 have come to CYQG over the past 24 hours.
 
jimbo737
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:58 am

Whiteguy wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

Is it not enough that longhauler takes the time to share this info with everyone. BTW, longhauler, a lot of us on here appreciate it.


Just to clarify, I have nothing against Longhauler. I find his posts very informative about many aspects, namely the operations side. Like you I appreciate all of his contributions and enjoy the debate it sparks. But I would call anyone out on spreading misinformation that is unequivocally incorrect. In case you can't tell, he and I both have a vested interest in AC remaining a viable employer!

The facts are, AC's loads are very poor across all three cabins and across the entire network. I personally wouldn't be surprised to a further reduction in the flying program announced next week. Some of the routes are simply unviable as per the latest schedule. I see a contraction to just a few transcon routes and maybe a few regional routes, to carry whats left of those wanting to travel and freight.


So what’s the point in getting in a pissing match then? He’s getting information from a different source, one you don’t have access to, and answering Jimbo! Another one looking for a listing match, and to much time on his hands while in quarantine. AC, like many other airlines, is trying to save their operation while also trying to help get people home while they can. Why question which operation and aircraft they seem fit to use?


Jimbo is focused on start up number 4 and never has enough time. The venture has been fully capitalized for quite some time and very fortunately has no expenses of consequences to contend with through this horribly ugly situation.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:26 am

PWA732 wrote:
No, the Max is not dead at AC. We are in the process of installing millions of dollars worth of dual HUD's in each aircraft. All 737 pilots are undergoing HUD training in our two simulators in Toronto as we speak. If we were getting rid of them, I see this as adding little value to the frames, as few operators will use them, or need them.

Curious, what makes the HUD valuable to Air Canada but apparently near-worthless for other operators?
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 18

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos