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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:13 pm

I've been on Air Canada 767s twice. Ironically, both of them were last-minute equipment swaps from A330s originally scheduled for the flights.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:27 pm

IIRC, my last AC 767 was on YYT-LHR -- so that tells you it was a while ago. The phone agent insisted I was on the 1-seat aisle side (2A?) but when I boarded I found 2x2x1. I've covered lots of miles in DL/AA/UA/CO/PI/US/KL/BA/NH 767s. 2x3x2 seating is as good as it gets in coach with 80% load factors.
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:07 pm

I have to wonder if the B788s have much mainline time left. They would seem to be ideal for a high-density configuration if RV ever resumed long-haul...see the example of JQ B788s versus QF B789s...99-seat difference (335 on the B788s vs. 236 on the B789s) or ZG B788 vs. JL B789 (an extreme case since JL is 8-abreast on mainline)...95 seat difference (290 on the B788 vs. 195 on the B789) and as much as 129 on mainline vs. Zipair B788s (161 mainline JL, 290 ZG).
 
Pottok
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:20 pm

The problem of the B787 is that all companies used a high density abreast (9) in Y class but when it was marketed the B787 was annonced at 8 abreast in Y. For this reason I prefer the A330 NEO because you have wider seat and armrest.

I flew a long time ago in AC 762 and in CP 763, I'd like the 7 abreast configuration in Y
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:34 pm

rikkus67 wrote:
Gimli was a decomissioned former Canadian Air Force Base, even before the incident happened. There was no easy way to bring C-GAUN back to Gimli, for permanent display.


Gimli is still an active airport - Gimli Industrial Airpark (CYGM) is still open for flights, with a 6,800ft runway.

RCAF Station Gimli had two parallel runways; one has been converted to a motorsports park, the other remained open for aircraft use. The Glider lined up for the closed runway and wasn't aware of the mistake until after it was too late to side-step.
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:23 pm

UA444 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
UA444 wrote:
With demand for 767s through the roof, at least they’ll continue flying most likely


The AC 767’s are pretty old, so I doubt that most planes will continue flying. The demand for 767 will most likely be lower because the economic downturn.

They’re buying up practically everything to convert. Demand outstrips supply.


There are 19 767's sitting at ILN right now that may never return to service with DL. I call this ATSG's shopping cart.....especially with the news today that we are leasing a further 12 767-300's to Amazon.......
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:08 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
What will AC use to replace this type? The A321 is too small (although it's a decent 762 replacement) and the 788 and A333 are too big.


787s, A330s and MAXs....

I imagine there will be an A321LR/XLR order at some point to replace some of the 767 flying. The MAX, assuming it ever comes back, isn’t quite big or capable enough.
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CXH
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:45 pm

Since there were a few questions upthread, the 767 is officially retired at *both* AC Mainline and AC Rouge:

Quote from AC website:
"In May 2020, Air Canada announced that in addition to the planned retirement of the remaining five 767s in its mainline fleet, the 767s from Rouge would also be retired from service."

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... ement.html
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Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:11 am

767333ER wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
What will AC use to replace this type? The A321 is too small (although it's a decent 762 replacement) and the 788 and A333 are too big.


787s, A330s and MAXs....

I imagine there will be an A321LR/XLR order at some point to replace some of the 767 flying. The MAX, assuming it ever comes back, isn’t quite big or capable enough.


Depends on which routes I guess. The MAX can handle routes from the east coast to LHR/Europe and YYC-OGG quite easily. Other longer ‘67 routes will be shuffled around the widebody fleet. I doubt AC is looking at new aircraft right now but we’ll see.
 
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AC853
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:05 am

My favourite aircraft by far. Flown on -200 within Canada and -300 many times to Hawaii and London. Preferred mainline 767’s. I was disappointed with the Rouged 767s.
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:54 am

AC853 wrote:
My favourite aircraft by far. Flown on -200 within Canada and -300 many times to Hawaii and London. Preferred mainline 767’s. I was disappointed with the Rouged 767s.


I never had the misfortune of flying a Rouge 763, but I've got a number of segments on the mainline birds, mainly back and forth between YOW and FRA. Good aircraft, both in Y and J. Even if the onboard product was highly dated towards the end, I was always a bit fond of the project XM herringbone. I think my last flight on one was FRA-YOW in September. Was hopeful I'd get another one this summer as they were originally sticking around a bit longer than planned due to the MAX groundings.

Oh well, I got an OS 763 VIE-YUL just before Covid hit. In hindsight, a lot of my flights in the last year are likely to be my last ever on certain types.
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:32 am

The only Boeing aircraft with great 2-3-2 seating in economy.
 
b4thefall
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:19 pm

Speaking of AC 767's, does anyone else remember the experimental livery they painted on at least 1 762? I remember being in YYZ in July 1993 and seeing a 762 in the double stripe livery, except instead of a red/burgundy combo, the entire livery was burgundy. In those pre-internet days, I was confused, as I didn't know about experimental liveries etc. Have never been able to find a photo of it either.
 
OB1504
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:01 pm

720B wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Sorry just to be clear, has Air Canada Rouge retired their fleet of 25 B763s? No return to transatlantic leisure is envisaged?



Found an article that says Rouge will be refocused on shorter flights within the Americas


https://paxex.aero/2020/05/air-canada-t ... etirement/

From the article:

"As part of its fleet reorganization Air Canada will permanently remove 79 aircraft from service, including the 25 767-300s operating for Rouge. These 767s were the backbone of the Rouge long-haul operations, delivering tens of thousands passengers to Europe every summer.

The Rouge will also fully retire A319 type from service, with 22 leaving the fleet. All told, more than 70% of the Rouge fleet is slated to retire, leaving Air Canada with only 19 A320/A321 planes flying for its LCC arm. The airline still believes that the low frills segment is important to its business, but that will be refocused on shorter flights within the Americas..."


As a fueler I won't miss the Rouge A319s and the bizarre choice to put the fuel panel on the left wing, which meant we needed two people to service the airplane most of the time since the narrowbody gates at MIA only have fuel pits on the right side.

b4thefall wrote:
Speaking of AC 767's, does anyone else remember the experimental livery they painted on at least 1 762? I remember being in YYZ in July 1993 and seeing a 762 in the double stripe livery, except instead of a red/burgundy combo, the entire livery was burgundy. In those pre-internet days, I was confused, as I didn't know about experimental liveries etc. Have never been able to find a photo of it either.


That brings to mind the other AC 767 experimental scheme... the bare metal 762 of the 2000s:

 
neromancer
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
767333ER wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

787s, A330s and MAXs....

I imagine there will be an A321LR/XLR order at some point to replace some of the 767 flying. The MAX, assuming it ever comes back, isn’t quite big or capable enough.


Depends on which routes I guess. The MAX can handle routes from the east coast to LHR/Europe and YYC-OGG quite easily. Other longer ‘67 routes will be shuffled around the widebody fleet. I doubt AC is looking at new aircraft right now but we’ll see.


I would also imagine that a number of routes will be cut now and for some time into the future. AC is positioning itself to be a much smaller airline for the next 5 years.
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:35 am

Quite some 767s movements yesterday as reported by Skyliner

Mainline

Boeing 767 -375 24307 259 C-FTCA Air Canada ferried 05jun20 YYZ-MZJ for storage (+ 25120/361 C-GLCA)
Boeing 767 -375 24575 311 C-FOCA Air Canada ferried 04jun20 YUL-MZJ for storage


Rouge
Boeing 767 -316 26327 621 C-FMLV Air Canada Rouge ferried 05jun20 YYZ-SNN for storage (+ 27597/602 C-FMLZ) ex 9Y-LGW
Boeing 767 -375 30108 771 C-GEOU Air Canada Rouge ferried 05jun20 MLB-MZJ for storage (+ 30112/765 C-GEOQ)
 
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Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:12 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Sor far...

Mainline 767s

at YUL : C-FOCA

at YYZ : C-FTCA / C-GLCA

at MCI : C-GHOZ

at MZJ : C-FPCA /


Rouge 767s

at MCI : C-FIYA / C-FMWQ / C-FMXC / C-GHLK / C-GHLT / C-GHLU / C-GHLV / C-GHPN / C-GSCA

at YYZ : C-FIYE / C-FMLZ / C-FMWP / C-FMWU / C-FMWV / C-GDUZ / C-GEOU / C-GHLQ / C-GHPE

at YUL : C-FJZK / C-FMLV / C-FMWY / C-GBZR /

at YVR : C-FXCA

at SNN : C-GEOQ

C-GHLA - unknown location


Mainline 767s

at MCI : C-GHOZ

at MZJ : C-FPCA / C-FTCA / C-GLCA / C-FOCA


Rouge 767s

at MCI : C-FIYA / C-FMXC / C-GHLK / C-GHLU / C-GSCA / C-FMWP / C-FMWU / C-GBZR / C-GDUZ / C-GHPE /

at MZJ : C-FMWQ / C-GHLV / C-GHPN / C-FMWV / C-FMWY / C-FXCA / C-GEOQ / C-GEOU / C-GHLQ /

at SNN : C-GHLT / C-FIYE / C-FJZK / C-FMLV / C-FMLZ /

at VQQ : C-GHLA
 
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:30 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
The only Boeing aircraft with great 2-3-2 seating in economy.


Was there another widebody and major operator with 2x3x2 seating in coach?
 
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rikkus67
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:35 pm

KPWMSpotter wrote:
rikkus67 wrote:
Gimli was a decomissioned former Canadian Air Force Base, even before the incident happened. There was no easy way to bring C-GAUN back to Gimli, for permanent display.


Gimli is still an active airport - Gimli Industrial Airpark (CYGM) is still open for flights, with a 6,800ft runway.

RCAF Station Gimli had two parallel runways; one has been converted to a motorsports park, the other remained open for aircraft use. The Glider lined up for the closed runway and wasn't aware of the mistake until after it was too late to side-step.


KPWMSpotter, thanks for the clarification! I didn't realize there was more than one runway... and I vividly remember the incident!
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b4thefall
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
The only Boeing aircraft with great 2-3-2 seating in economy.


Was there another widebody and major operator with 2x3x2 seating in coach?


The rear several rows on 330/340 aircraft are 2-3-2. Always nice to sit there, as the aisle is also extremely wide.
 
PBerry
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:04 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
The only Boeing aircraft with great 2-3-2 seating in economy.


Was there another widebody and major operator with 2x3x2 seating in coach?


I remember flying on Air Astana last summer; they had 2x3x2 as well on their 767s. Though I'm not sure if you'd wanna call them a major player with a fleet of only four 763s.
 
diverted
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Re: Air Canada Officially Retires the 767

Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:49 pm

b4thefall wrote:
Speaking of AC 767's, does anyone else remember the experimental livery they painted on at least 1 762? I remember being in YYZ in July 1993 and seeing a 762 in the double stripe livery, except instead of a red/burgundy combo, the entire livery was burgundy. In those pre-internet days, I was confused, as I didn't know about experimental liveries etc. Have never been able to find a photo of it either.


Totally possible it's just the way it looks in photos, but C-FBEG was leased to Polynesian in that time frame, and wore a hybrid livery. Is it possible both stripes were maroon? Not sure if it would have been in YYZ at that time for MTCE or anything, I imagine someone like longhauler will be able to answer for you
Image

After a bit more digging I stumbled on this as well, which may add to my hypothesis that FBEG may have had a stripe repainted before operating for Polynesian.
Almost half this month’s releases represent the Boeing 767-200 as Aeroclassics continue to roll through the possibilities the type offers. The schemes this month are all mainstream aside from that of Polynesian Airlines, who leased C-FBEG from Air Canada in 1993 and operated it in an attractive variation of the Air Canada burgundy stripe scheme. It does seem however that the Aeroclassics elves at the factory may have got confused between this and the Air Canada release and switched the burgundy stripe to the Polynesian 767 rather than the Air Canada one.


https://www.yesterdaysairlines.com/mode ... 9-releases
 
airnorth
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Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:52 pm

Not sure if this is another "retirement" flight or not, an Air Canada E 190, C-FNAJ, AC 2337 YYC-TUS currently heading to Arizona. It doesn't look like this plane has been in the air since April, so I assume her days with AC are done?

https://www.flightradar24.com/ACA2337/24af75ae
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:58 pm

airnorth wrote:
Not sure if this is another "retirement" flight or not, an Air Canada E 190, C-FNAJ, AC 2337 YYC-TUS currently heading to Arizona. It doesn't look like this plane has been in the air since April, so I assume her days with AC are done?

https://www.flightradar24.com/ACA2337/24af75ae
All AC E190s are done... fleet retired. So yes it's done.

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TC957
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AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:22 am

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... b61dc4c7c8

Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?
Bearing in mind these are not NEO's and presumably will need extra equipment on board to be allowed to fly regular TATL routes.
 
Skyblue39
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:56 am

TC957 wrote:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/91955-air-canada-rouge-to-use-a321s-on-trans-atlantic-routes?mc_cid=fec72df763&mc_eid=b61dc4c7c8

Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?
Bearing in mind these are not NEO's and presumably will need extra equipment on board to be allowed to fly regular TATL routes.


Dublin remains AC Mainline with B787.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:35 am

TC957 wrote:
Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?


Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:07 am

Maybe I missed it, but where does it say AC Rouge will be operating A321s TATL this summer? The comments from AC CEO sound more long term to me-that is AC has no plans to move new wide bodies over to Rouge to replace the 767s and Rouge will become narrowbody only with select A321 transatlantic routes (which could happen with say A321LRs if Air Transat deal still ends up occurring). No where does he say these A321 TATL routes will be operated this summer, in the current environment that is unlikely.
 
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:35 am

Polot wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but where does it say AC Rouge will be operating A321s TATL this summer? The comments from AC CEO sound more long term to me-that is AC has no plans to move new wide bodies over to Rouge to replace the 767s and Rouge will become narrowbody only with select A321 transatlantic routes (which could happen with say A321LRs if Air Transat deal still ends up occurring). No where does he say these A321 TATL routes will be operated this summer, in the current environment that is unlikely.


In the first line it says:
"Air Canada rouge (RV, Toronto Pearson) will continue to serve "some" trans-Atlantic routes using its narrowbody Airbus aircraft even after the B767-300(ER)s are permanently retired,
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:39 am

tvh wrote:
Polot wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but where does it say AC Rouge will be operating A321s TATL this summer? The comments from AC CEO sound more long term to me-that is AC has no plans to move new wide bodies over to Rouge to replace the 767s and Rouge will become narrowbody only with select A321 transatlantic routes (which could happen with say A321LRs if Air Transat deal still ends up occurring). No where does he say these A321 TATL routes will be operated this summer, in the current environment that is unlikely.


In the first line it says:
"Air Canada rouge (RV, Toronto Pearson) will continue to serve "some" trans-Atlantic routes using its narrowbody Airbus aircraft even after the B767-300(ER)s are permanently retired,

Tell me where in that sentence does it say they will be serving those routes this summer with A321s. In fact later on in the article it says some 767s may be reactivated if demand requires it before the fleet is officially permanently retired.

What is likely going to happen is AC Rouge is probably going to skip out on intercontinental operations when it comes to S20.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:54 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?


Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?


Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?

I don't see the virtues of KEF as a tech stop. At least with YHZ (and less so, YYT) you could board and deplane O&D passengers, and carry some meaningful numbers on the domestic segments.
 
matt
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:56 am

Indeed, as pointed out, the article does not say that the A321s will be operating transatlantic flights this summer (S20). It says it could happen eventually (see article). The transatlantic schedule for this summer is a skeleton of what it once was as most of the routes have been cancelled. What remains will be operated mostly by the 788 and 789.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
Thomaas
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:35 pm

They’d need the XLR to make it worth it. Under the current environment, I doubt AC will order new aircraft although pricing and availability would be interesting. Furthermore, none of the Rouge narrowbody pilots are ETOPS certified, apparently as a cost saving measure.

From the current Rouge routes, I see ATH, BCN, VCE, LIS and BOG going to mainline, while UK flying would either go to the MAX or Rouge narrowbody. I do hope that AC doesn’t give up on secondary destinations they’ve spent the last 6 years building, like BUD, PRG, WAW and TXL. This is where I think an A330 with a W and Y cabin would shine.
 
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:49 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?


Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?


Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?

I don't see the virtues of KEF as a tech stop. At least with YHZ (and less so, YYT) you could board and deplane O&D passengers, and carry some meaningful numbers on the domestic segments.


I'm not sure if they still do it, but it worked really well for Westjet when they started 737 ops to Dublin and Glasgow. Fly to Halifax or St. Johns, which is only 4-5 hours away, clear immigration in a quiet terminal, and either continue on the same aircraft to Toronto as a now domestic passenger, or take one of the other services Westjet offers. In my experience much better than rush hour immigration followed by security in Toronto!
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Thomaas wrote:
They’d need the XLR to make it worth it. Under the current environment, I doubt AC will order new aircraft although pricing and availability would be interesting. Furthermore, none of the Rouge narrowbody pilots are ETOPS certified, apparently as a cost saving measure.

From the current Rouge routes, I see ATH, BCN, VCE, LIS and BOG going to mainline, while UK flying would either go to the MAX or Rouge narrowbody. I do hope that AC doesn’t give up on secondary destinations they’ve spent the last 6 years building, like BUD, PRG, WAW and TXL. This is where I think an A330 with a W and Y cabin would shine.

It’s precisely those secondary destinations that are going to be the most impacted by covid. The airlines are going to retrench into their high volume high profit routes as they recover.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:51 pm

With the proposed Transat acquisition, surely given the reduced demand the combined Transat A330/321(738) fleet and the AC A330/787/777 fleet will be enough to cover for the 767s being retired? If the Transat acquisition does go through AC has significant flexibility to deploy Widebodies/A321neo across the Atlantic while the A32x and 737 fleets work in North America?
 
Thomaas
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:08 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?


Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?

I don't see the virtues of KEF as a tech stop. At least with YHZ (and less so, YYT) you could board and deplane O&D passengers, and carry some meaningful numbers on the domestic segments.


I'm not sure if they still do it, but it worked really well for Westjet when they started 737 ops to Dublin and Glasgow. Fly to Halifax or St. Johns, which is only 4-5 hours away, clear immigration in a quiet terminal, and either continue on the same aircraft to Toronto as a now domestic passenger, or take one of the other services Westjet offers. In my experience much better than rush hour immigration followed by security in Toronto!

AC’s business model is different to Westjet’s, they use YUL and YYZ at TATL gateways, with a heavy emphasis on US connections. Going from offering a one-stop option to a two-stop one is hardly going to keep them competitive in that market. INTL-INTL connections do not need to clear Canadian customs at YYZ and make up a significant amount of the traffic on those flights.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 801
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:29 pm

Thomaas wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?

I don't see the virtues of KEF as a tech stop. At least with YHZ (and less so, YYT) you could board and deplane O&D passengers, and carry some meaningful numbers on the domestic segments.


I'm not sure if they still do it, but it worked really well for Westjet when they started 737 ops to Dublin and Glasgow. Fly to Halifax or St. Johns, which is only 4-5 hours away, clear immigration in a quiet terminal, and either continue on the same aircraft to Toronto as a now domestic passenger, or take one of the other services Westjet offers. In my experience much better than rush hour immigration followed by security in Toronto!

AC’s business model is different to Westjet’s, they use YUL and YYZ at TATL gateways, with a heavy emphasis on US connections. Going from offering a one-stop option to a two-stop one is hardly going to keep them competitive in that market. INTL-INTL connections do not need to clear Canadian customs at YYZ and make up a significant amount of the traffic on those flights.


In which case either direct or a stop in KEF would make sense. Out of curiosity, how does it work if flying Europe-transit YYZ-the US, since they have pre-clearance? I've been tempted by AC's US fares, but i have mixed experiences in general with connecting through Toronto.
 
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Polot
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:38 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

I'm not sure if they still do it, but it worked really well for Westjet when they started 737 ops to Dublin and Glasgow. Fly to Halifax or St. Johns, which is only 4-5 hours away, clear immigration in a quiet terminal, and either continue on the same aircraft to Toronto as a now domestic passenger, or take one of the other services Westjet offers. In my experience much better than rush hour immigration followed by security in Toronto!

AC’s business model is different to Westjet’s, they use YUL and YYZ at TATL gateways, with a heavy emphasis on US connections. Going from offering a one-stop option to a two-stop one is hardly going to keep them competitive in that market. INTL-INTL connections do not need to clear Canadian customs at YYZ and make up a significant amount of the traffic on those flights.


In which case either direct or a stop in KEF would make sense. Out of curiosity, how does it work if flying Europe-transit YYZ-the US, since they have pre-clearance? I've been tempted by AC's US fares, but i have mixed experiences in general with connecting through Toronto.

A stop in KEF really wouldn’t help AC that much if they are also targeting US connections, even if KEF is just a tech stop. It’s tough to sell US-YYZ-KEF-Europe over US-US-Europe or US-Europe nonstop.
 
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keesje
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:39 pm

Air Canada shocked Airbus again in 2013 by placing a large A320 replacement MAX order, after placing a big A330/A340 replacement 777/787 order shortly after exiting their bankruptsy.

The plan was to replace the total Airbus NB fleet. Meanwhile used A321s were bought to temporary supplement the fleet.

After some time a slight change was made to keep the A321 a bit longer and order additional ones.

Then A321 showed up in longer term fleet plans.

When it became clear all competitors jumped to A321s, people began scratching their heads.

During the MAX grounding, increasingly alternatives got looked at.

At the current stage an Air Canada mainfleet A321 order would probably have been placed, if it wasn't for the Covid-19 crisis.
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beechnut
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:11 pm

keesje wrote:
At the current stage an Air Canada mainfleet A321 order would probably have been placed, if it wasn't for the Covid-19 crisis.


I think you're probably correct. In fact I'm not sure such an idea is excluded yet. It depends on what happens to the TS deal, I think. Originally the MAX 9 was going to fulfill the A321 replacement role, and the MAX 8 was going to replace the 320s. The A223 was to replace both the Embraer fleet and 319 fleet.

The MAX 9 order was at first deferred even before COVID-19 and then quietly cancelled as part of the MAX compensation package. So clearly AC was also looking at other narrow body options at the upper end of the range even back then. And even the 321 CEOs seem to be worth hanging onto, in fact 5 years ago they bought 5 new-build CEOs for Rouge.

I think we will be seeing the A321 in AC's fleet for a long time to come. If the TS takeover goes through you'll see NEOs and LRs come on board; remains to be seen which brand they'd fly under. And if the TS deal falls through, that might free up some cash to pick up some NEO/LR/XLRs (maybe 5 of the latter to start), some of which might stil come from TS whose future is very shaky in a post COVID-19 world.

As for the MAX 8, still no RTS. Before the pandemic, AC said that their temporary lift could carry them to the end of the year but not beyond. The pandemic probably moved that farther by 6 months to a year. So I would expect that if there is no clear and precise MAX 8 RTS date by December, AC's fleet planner is going to be clicking his pen nervously waiting for the OK from the top to sign an order... and given the smaller post-pandemic market, it may mean exercising options on more A223s (or A225???) for A320 replacements and maybe some 321LR or XLR.

We need to also remember that an order penned today will take some time to fulfill... so the present cash situation may allow for deposits on a small initial 321XLR order (say 5 aircraft, 5 options) to be delivered 2 years out. Airlines do need to still plan ahead to not be caught flat-footed when recovery comes.

Beech
 
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Vio
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:11 pm

So I guess, Budapest, Bucharest, etc. routes will not happen for a long time to come :(
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?


Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?


Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?


If I were sure, I wouldn't ask the questions. Technically, the aircraft has the range but outside factors can prevent it from making it.
 
Thomaas
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:45 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

I'm not sure if they still do it, but it worked really well for Westjet when they started 737 ops to Dublin and Glasgow. Fly to Halifax or St. Johns, which is only 4-5 hours away, clear immigration in a quiet terminal, and either continue on the same aircraft to Toronto as a now domestic passenger, or take one of the other services Westjet offers. In my experience much better than rush hour immigration followed by security in Toronto!

AC’s business model is different to Westjet’s, they use YUL and YYZ at TATL gateways, with a heavy emphasis on US connections. Going from offering a one-stop option to a two-stop one is hardly going to keep them competitive in that market. INTL-INTL connections do not need to clear Canadian customs at YYZ and make up a significant amount of the traffic on those flights.


In which case either direct or a stop in KEF would make sense. Out of curiosity, how does it work if flying Europe-transit YYZ-the US, since they have pre-clearance? I've been tempted by AC's US fares, but i have mixed experiences in general with connecting through Toronto.

Passengers connecting from Europe to the US in YYZ clear expedited security and US customs at YYZ, with bags being checked through. It's a fairly easy process and miles ahead of the arrival experience at most US airports when flying internationally.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AC Rouge to eventually use A321's on TATL routes

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:37 pm

Polot wrote:
It’s precisely those secondary destinations that are going to be the most impacted by covid. The airlines are going to retrench into their high volume high profit routes as they recover.

I see things the same way, which is a shame since I live in the NE USA and have wanted to see TATL narrowbodies become a disruptive force for quite a while. CV19 has set all that back by a lot, IMO.
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Whiteguy
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:40 pm

tvh wrote:
Polot wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but where does it say AC Rouge will be operating A321s TATL this summer? The comments from AC CEO sound more long term to me-that is AC has no plans to move new wide bodies over to Rouge to replace the 767s and Rouge will become narrowbody only with select A321 transatlantic routes (which could happen with say A321LRs if Air Transat deal still ends up occurring). No where does he say these A321 TATL routes will be operated this summer, in the current environment that is unlikely.


In the first line it says:
"Air Canada rouge (RV, Toronto Pearson) will continue to serve "some" trans-Atlantic routes using its narrowbody Airbus aircraft even after the B767-300(ER)s are permanently retired,


The first line is not any sort of factual quote. Rovinescu quote below is talking about long term, if at all. I find these articles often take comments out of context. Even the comment at the bottom refers to the MAX9 cancellations as MAX8s.....
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1088
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:43 pm

Thomaas wrote:
Passengers connecting from Europe to the US in YYZ clear expedited security and US customs at YYZ, with bags being checked through. It's a fairly easy process and miles ahead of the arrival experience at most US airports when flying internationally.


Agreed!

Arriving passengers are split into 3 streams: arriving in Canada (including for domestic connections), international connections (straight to the departure lounge) and US connections (collect bags, through a dedicated US CBP check and re-drop bags)... definitely the most efficient way to clear US customs, I'd say even better than originating in YYZ having done both.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
Posts: 112
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Re: AC Rouge to use A321's on TATL routes this summer.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:19 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Could they do YYZ-GLA/MAN/DUB with a full load or just ex-YHZ routes ?


Range-wise, the A321 could do it from YYZ, however are they ETOPS and are there any other reasons that could prevent it from flying nonstop? If so, are the pros of routing through YHZ instead of say YYT or KEF?


Are you sure? Westbound to YYZ with fairly densely-configured A321ceos?

I don't see the virtues of KEF as a tech stop. At least with YHZ (and less so, YYT) you could board and deplane O&D passengers, and carry some meaningful numbers on the domestic segments.


No question that an A321ceo could make YYZ-GLA/EDI/MAN eastbound. Westbound, it's close enough that anybody who doesn't have the exact configuration details of a Rouge A321, and a complete weather report, would only be guessing. That said, all of GLA/EDI/MAN are summer-seasonal stations for AC, so weather over the North Atlantic should be favorably mild. Worst comes to worst, the occasional unscheduled tech stop at Goose Bay or YOW seems like a far superior option to a scheduled tech stop at KEF.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Which Air Canada's aircraft are being parked?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:07 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Rouge 767s

at MCI : C-FIYA / C-FMXC / C-GHLK / C-GHLU / C-GSCA / C-FMWP / C-FMWU / C-GBZR / C-GDUZ / C-GHPE /

at MZJ : C-FMWQ / C-GHLV / C-GHPN / C-FMWV / C-FMWY / C-FXCA / C-GEOQ / C-GEOU / C-GHLQ /

at SNN : C-GHLT / C-FIYE / C-FJZK / C-FMLV / C-FMLZ /

at VQQ : C-GHLA


at MCI : C-FIYA / C-FMWP / C-FMWU / C-GBZR / C-GDUZ / C-GHPE /

at MZJ : C-FMWQ / C-GHLV / C-GHPN / C-FMWV / C-FMWY / C-FXCA / C-GEOQ / C-GEOU / C-GHLQ / C-FMXC / C-GHLK / C-GHLU / C-GSCA /

at SNN : C-GHLT / C-FIYE / C-FJZK / C-FMLV / C-FMLZ /

at VQQ : C-GHLA



Boeing 767 -375 25121 372 C-GSCA Air Canada Rouge ferried 17jun20 MCI-MZJ for onward storage (+ 30851/836 C-GHLU) ex B-2564
Boeing 767 -333 25588 606 C-FMXC Air Canada Rouge ferried 18jun20 MCI-MZJ for onward storage (+ 26388/456 C-GHLK)
 
C172YT
Topic Author
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Air Canada Cutting 30 Domestic Routes, 8 Stations

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:18 pm

Air Canada is indefinitely suspending service on 30 domestic routes and closing eight stations:
    Bathurst (New Brunswick)
    Wabush (Newfoundland and Labrador)
    Gaspé (Quebec)
    Baie Comeau (Quebec)
    Mont Joli (Quebec)
    Val d’Or (Quebec)
    Kingston (Ontario)
    North Bay (Ontario)
Of the eight stations Air Canada is withdrawing from, I believe Kingston, Gaspé, and Bathurst are now left with no scheduled air carrier services.
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