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Retired57
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:29 am

I see that Air Canada C-FMLV is back at YYZ after being in Shannon for a few months. Also C-FCAG is back flying for a few weeks now.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1608
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:59 pm

[list=][/list]
Retired57 wrote:
I see that Air Canada C-FMLV is back at YYZ after being in Shannon for a few months. Also C-FCAG is back flying for a few weeks now.


C-FMLV is heading back to the desert and return to lessor. C-FCAG is the registration of a private jet now.
 
Retired57
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:39 pm

Wonder who is the private owner of C-FCAG. I can only find that it is registered to Air Canada
 
Cessnapimp
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 11:46 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:29 pm

Fin 515 got an erroneous engine indication MZJ-YYZ, shut down one engine and diverted to Tucson AZ earlier today.
 
jumbojettony
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:29 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:34 am

Cessnapimp wrote:
Fin 515 got an erroneous engine indication MZJ-YYZ, shut down one engine and diverted to Tucson AZ earlier today.


And right on cue you have news headlines all over reporting a Max issue. Got to love our media these days.
 
User avatar
mach86
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:41 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:28 am

Incident happened on Dec 22nd.
 
billsalton92
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:12 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:51 am

Retired57 wrote:
I see that Air Canada C-FMLV is back at YYZ after being in Shannon for a few months. Also C-FCAG is back flying for a few weeks now.


You can buy a plane tag of the original CAG
 
codyul
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:32 pm

Anyone have full access to the Toronto Star article about AC standoff with the feds over a bailout?
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:52 pm

codyul wrote:
Anyone have full access to the Toronto Star article about AC standoff with the feds over a bailout?


I do, not sure if I'm allowed to copy and paste the whole article here
 
codyul
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:34 pm

777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
Anyone have full access to the Toronto Star article about AC standoff with the feds over a bailout?


I do, not sure if I'm allowed to copy and paste the whole article here

Could you selective quote :)
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:23 pm

codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
Anyone have full access to the Toronto Star article about AC standoff with the feds over a bailout?


I do, not sure if I'm allowed to copy and paste the whole article here

Could you selective quote :)


"Governments in most major economies have bailed out their airlines, especially their flagship national carriers. Almost alone, Canada has been holding back from prompt airline bailouts, instead devising a holistic rescue package intended to help the entire aviation industry"

"Ottawa has repeatedly pointed to the wage subsidies that airlines have received, which now total more than $1.4 billion. Welcome as that relief has been, it doesn’t begin to cover the airlines’ enormous capital and nonpersonnel operating costs"

Then it talks about Ottawa's demands for refunds and how that's affected the talks.

"Industry analysts warn that bailedout foreign airlines are taking market share from Canadian carriers, on transborder flights and sunspot vacation packages especially. And that Air Canada has been tapping credit markets for high-cost debt to keep operating, a burden that could make AC permanently less competitive than its global peers."

"By now, there have been two rounds of bailouts for airlines in the U.S. and Europe. Ottawa is still deliberating over an initial bailout. In attempting to rescue the entire industry in one package, Ottawa has been trying to negotiate with too many parties at once."

Then it talks about how only with adequate funds from the feds only then can the airlines provide proper refunds other than the refunded tickets refunded over the past few months

"Ottawa has said it is prepared to spend $980 million to help airports, an illogical expenditure in the absence of rescuing the airlines that use the airports. Most industry analysts think the airlines need at least $7 billion in federal grants, low-interest loans and tax abeyance to keep flying. Investors have been suffering along with the airlines, of course"

Then it talks about how other industry peers' stocks have recovered greatly while AC's hasn't, and ends with the industry suffering even more damage if nothing is done.

In my personal opinion the government really needs to stop playing games, this industry is vital to Canada and yet 10 months in, all they do is boast about the CEWS while completely ignoring the real problem, airlines are headed towards bankruptcy and fast if no help is provided. It's utterly appalling how nothing has been done compared to other countries who are on their second round of aid.......
 
andrew1996
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:41 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:55 pm

What’s further interesting is that Air Canada Cargo does not appear to have been awarded the COVID vaccine transport contract (Air Canada was interested in making a bid) at all as it all went to other cargo operators and the government Twitter feed shows pictures of FedEx and UPS planes. I think at least awarding the air carriage part to AC cargo would have been at least symbolic in supporting Canadian airlines like other countries and then having the Twitter image with AC in the background would have been better optics and help support AC
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:59 pm

andrew1996 wrote:
What’s further interesting is that Air Canada Cargo does not appear to have been awarded the COVID vaccine transport contract (Air Canada was interested in making a bid) at all as it all went to other cargo operators and the government Twitter feed shows pictures of FedEx and UPS planes. I think at least awarding the air carriage part to AC cargo would have been at least symbolic in supporting Canadian airlines like other countries and then having the Twitter image with AC in the background would have been better optics and help support AC


I wouldn't be surprised if that comes in the next couple months but who knows with the govt rn
 
crosscheckyyz
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:20 pm

andrew1996 wrote:
I think at least awarding the air carriage part to AC cargo would have been at least symbolic in supporting Canadian airlines like other countries and then having the Twitter image with AC in the background would have been better optics and help support AC


AC Cargo as of now doesn't have a full cargo aircraft. Besides filling an aircraft that have been stripped of passenger seats and amenities etc. and placing a vaccine that will help in move us back to normalcy in overhead lockers and boxes secured with cargo netting in the cabin seems like a lot more work. Also companies such as FedEx and UPS probably have experience, logistical know how, and the network to get the vaccines distributed out to the world. I also believe one of the vaccines must be shipped and stored at -70c (-94f for the Americans).

Then again apparently UA flew a charter for the first deliveries to the US on BRU-ORD. Details of it can be read in this NPR article with mention of AA and DL in it.
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/94567060 ... l-operatio
 
codyul
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:17 pm

777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:

I do, not sure if I'm allowed to copy and paste the whole article here

Could you selective quote :)


"Governments in most major economies have bailed out their airlines, especially their flagship national carriers. Almost alone, Canada has been holding back from prompt airline bailouts, instead devising a holistic rescue package intended to help the entire aviation industry"

"Ottawa has repeatedly pointed to the wage subsidies that airlines have received, which now total more than $1.4 billion. Welcome as that relief has been, it doesn’t begin to cover the airlines’ enormous capital and nonpersonnel operating costs"

Then it talks about Ottawa's demands for refunds and how that's affected the talks.

"Industry analysts warn that bailedout foreign airlines are taking market share from Canadian carriers, on transborder flights and sunspot vacation packages especially. And that Air Canada has been tapping credit markets for high-cost debt to keep operating, a burden that could make AC permanently less competitive than its global peers."

"By now, there have been two rounds of bailouts for airlines in the U.S. and Europe. Ottawa is still deliberating over an initial bailout. In attempting to rescue the entire industry in one package, Ottawa has been trying to negotiate with too many parties at once."

Then it talks about how only with adequate funds from the feds only then can the airlines provide proper refunds other than the refunded tickets refunded over the past few months

"Ottawa has said it is prepared to spend $980 million to help airports, an illogical expenditure in the absence of rescuing the airlines that use the airports. Most industry analysts think the airlines need at least $7 billion in federal grants, low-interest loans and tax abeyance to keep flying. Investors have been suffering along with the airlines, of course"

Then it talks about how other industry peers' stocks have recovered greatly while AC's hasn't, and ends with the industry suffering even more damage if nothing is done.

In my personal opinion the government really needs to stop playing games, this industry is vital to Canada and yet 10 months in, all they do is boast about the CEWS while completely ignoring the real problem, airlines are headed towards bankruptcy and fast if no help is provided. It's utterly appalling how nothing has been done compared to other countries who are on their second round of aid.......

I'm happy a media source is being realistic about the importance of airlines to the Canadian economy. People love to hate big Red but it is vitally important to the country. Time for the feds to put up.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:25 pm

codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
Could you selective quote :)


"Governments in most major economies have bailed out their airlines, especially their flagship national carriers. Almost alone, Canada has been holding back from prompt airline bailouts, instead devising a holistic rescue package intended to help the entire aviation industry"

"Ottawa has repeatedly pointed to the wage subsidies that airlines have received, which now total more than $1.4 billion. Welcome as that relief has been, it doesn’t begin to cover the airlines’ enormous capital and nonpersonnel operating costs"

Then it talks about Ottawa's demands for refunds and how that's affected the talks.

"Industry analysts warn that bailedout foreign airlines are taking market share from Canadian carriers, on transborder flights and sunspot vacation packages especially. And that Air Canada has been tapping credit markets for high-cost debt to keep operating, a burden that could make AC permanently less competitive than its global peers."

"By now, there have been two rounds of bailouts for airlines in the U.S. and Europe. Ottawa is still deliberating over an initial bailout. In attempting to rescue the entire industry in one package, Ottawa has been trying to negotiate with too many parties at once."

Then it talks about how only with adequate funds from the feds only then can the airlines provide proper refunds other than the refunded tickets refunded over the past few months

"Ottawa has said it is prepared to spend $980 million to help airports, an illogical expenditure in the absence of rescuing the airlines that use the airports. Most industry analysts think the airlines need at least $7 billion in federal grants, low-interest loans and tax abeyance to keep flying. Investors have been suffering along with the airlines, of course"

Then it talks about how other industry peers' stocks have recovered greatly while AC's hasn't, and ends with the industry suffering even more damage if nothing is done.

In my personal opinion the government really needs to stop playing games, this industry is vital to Canada and yet 10 months in, all they do is boast about the CEWS while completely ignoring the real problem, airlines are headed towards bankruptcy and fast if no help is provided. It's utterly appalling how nothing has been done compared to other countries who are on their second round of aid.......

I'm happy a media source is being realistic about the importance of airlines to the Canadian economy. People love to hate big Red but it is vitally important to the country. Time for the feds to put up.


Amen
 
TObound
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:40 pm

codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
Could you selective quote :)


"Governments in most major economies have bailed out their airlines, especially their flagship national carriers. Almost alone, Canada has been holding back from prompt airline bailouts, instead devising a holistic rescue package intended to help the entire aviation industry"

"Ottawa has repeatedly pointed to the wage subsidies that airlines have received, which now total more than $1.4 billion. Welcome as that relief has been, it doesn’t begin to cover the airlines’ enormous capital and nonpersonnel operating costs"

Then it talks about Ottawa's demands for refunds and how that's affected the talks.

"Industry analysts warn that bailedout foreign airlines are taking market share from Canadian carriers, on transborder flights and sunspot vacation packages especially. And that Air Canada has been tapping credit markets for high-cost debt to keep operating, a burden that could make AC permanently less competitive than its global peers."

"By now, there have been two rounds of bailouts for airlines in the U.S. and Europe. Ottawa is still deliberating over an initial bailout. In attempting to rescue the entire industry in one package, Ottawa has been trying to negotiate with too many parties at once."

Then it talks about how only with adequate funds from the feds only then can the airlines provide proper refunds other than the refunded tickets refunded over the past few months

"Ottawa has said it is prepared to spend $980 million to help airports, an illogical expenditure in the absence of rescuing the airlines that use the airports. Most industry analysts think the airlines need at least $7 billion in federal grants, low-interest loans and tax abeyance to keep flying. Investors have been suffering along with the airlines, of course"

Then it talks about how other industry peers' stocks have recovered greatly while AC's hasn't, and ends with the industry suffering even more damage if nothing is done.

In my personal opinion the government really needs to stop playing games, this industry is vital to Canada and yet 10 months in, all they do is boast about the CEWS while completely ignoring the real problem, airlines are headed towards bankruptcy and fast if no help is provided. It's utterly appalling how nothing has been done compared to other countries who are on their second round of aid.......

I'm happy a media source is being realistic about the importance of airlines to the Canadian economy. People love to hate big Red but it is vitally important to the country. Time for the feds to put up.


Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:27 am

TObound wrote:
codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:

"Governments in most major economies have bailed out their airlines, especially their flagship national carriers. Almost alone, Canada has been holding back from prompt airline bailouts, instead devising a holistic rescue package intended to help the entire aviation industry"

"Ottawa has repeatedly pointed to the wage subsidies that airlines have received, which now total more than $1.4 billion. Welcome as that relief has been, it doesn’t begin to cover the airlines’ enormous capital and nonpersonnel operating costs"

Then it talks about Ottawa's demands for refunds and how that's affected the talks.

"Industry analysts warn that bailedout foreign airlines are taking market share from Canadian carriers, on transborder flights and sunspot vacation packages especially. And that Air Canada has been tapping credit markets for high-cost debt to keep operating, a burden that could make AC permanently less competitive than its global peers."

"By now, there have been two rounds of bailouts for airlines in the U.S. and Europe. Ottawa is still deliberating over an initial bailout. In attempting to rescue the entire industry in one package, Ottawa has been trying to negotiate with too many parties at once."

Then it talks about how only with adequate funds from the feds only then can the airlines provide proper refunds other than the refunded tickets refunded over the past few months

"Ottawa has said it is prepared to spend $980 million to help airports, an illogical expenditure in the absence of rescuing the airlines that use the airports. Most industry analysts think the airlines need at least $7 billion in federal grants, low-interest loans and tax abeyance to keep flying. Investors have been suffering along with the airlines, of course"

Then it talks about how other industry peers' stocks have recovered greatly while AC's hasn't, and ends with the industry suffering even more damage if nothing is done.

In my personal opinion the government really needs to stop playing games, this industry is vital to Canada and yet 10 months in, all they do is boast about the CEWS while completely ignoring the real problem, airlines are headed towards bankruptcy and fast if no help is provided. It's utterly appalling how nothing has been done compared to other countries who are on their second round of aid.......

I'm happy a media source is being realistic about the importance of airlines to the Canadian economy. People love to hate big Red but it is vitally important to the country. Time for the feds to put up.


Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.


Its not a bailout, the uneducated media loves to use those kinds of words as it sells but ots a federal aid loan, not a bailout. These airlines would owe back the money to the government. What would you do if the airlines go bankrupt? This country would come to a standstill
 
m1m2
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:39 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:00 am

check out https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... RchHs.aspx
Type in the registration there and it'll all show up. C-FCAG is now a Cessna Citation 560 Ultra based in YYZ and owned by Chartright Air Inc. Actually, that's the link to the search for that registration, but it'll work for any Canadian registration, just click the search on the L/H side of the site and go from there.
 
TObound
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:32 am

777luver wrote:
TObound wrote:
codyul wrote:
I'm happy a media source is being realistic about the importance of airlines to the Canadian economy. People love to hate big Red but it is vitally important to the country. Time for the feds to put up.


Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.


Its not a bailout, the uneducated media loves to use those kinds of words as it sells but ots a federal aid loan, not a bailout. These airlines would owe back the money to the government. What would you do if the airlines go bankrupt? This country would come to a standstill


The country would be just fine. The CAF would take care of the northern communities. New airlines would buy up the assets and relaunch shortly thereafter. Let's not forget, nearly 60% of the country lives in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, with good roads and some train service. And a good bit of the rest of the population stays in pockets in the lower Mainland, Calgary-Edmonton and Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridors. The very fact that we've been managing pretty well without much air travel the last few months should put an end to this myth that Canada would face an existential crisis from the major carriers going under.

The only losers would be shareholders and employees. And of that group, most Canadians only really feel sorry for the latter. And even that's debatable with a good sized minority. 30" pitch and 17" seats is fantastic for winning public sympathy.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:12 am

TObound wrote:
777luver wrote:
TObound wrote:

Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.


Its not a bailout, the uneducated media loves to use those kinds of words as it sells but ots a federal aid loan, not a bailout. These airlines would owe back the money to the government. What would you do if the airlines go bankrupt? This country would come to a standstill


The country would be just fine. The CAF would take care of the northern communities. New airlines would buy up the assets and relaunch shortly thereafter. Let's not forget, nearly 60% of the country lives in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, with good roads and some train service. And a good bit of the rest of the population stays in pockets in the lower Mainland, Calgary-Edmonton and Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridors. The very fact that we've been managing pretty well without much air travel the last few months should put an end to this myth that Canada would face an existential crisis from the major carriers going under.

The only losers would be shareholders and employees. And of that group, most Canadians only really feel sorry for the latter. And even that's debatable with a good sized minority. 30" pitch and 17" seats is fantastic for winning public sympathy.


HAH! in fantasy land much? Please
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:14 am

TObound wrote:
777luver wrote:
TObound wrote:

Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.


Its not a bailout, the uneducated media loves to use those kinds of words as it sells but ots a federal aid loan, not a bailout. These airlines would owe back the money to the government. What would you do if the airlines go bankrupt? This country would come to a standstill


The country would be just fine. The CAF would take care of the northern communities. New airlines would buy up the assets and relaunch shortly thereafter. Let's not forget, nearly 60% of the country lives in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, with good roads and some train service. And a good bit of the rest of the population stays in pockets in the lower Mainland, Calgary-Edmonton and Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridors. The very fact that we've been managing pretty well without much air travel the last few months should put an end to this myth that Canada would face an existential crisis from the major carriers going under.

The only losers would be shareholders and employees. And of that group, most Canadians only really feel sorry for the latter. And even that's debatable with a good sized minority. 30" pitch and 17" seats is fantastic for winning public sympathy.


What new airlines could start up on a whim and buy billions worth of assets? None
 
User avatar
mach86
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:41 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:18 am

TObound wrote:
777luver wrote:
TObound wrote:

Air service is important. Not necessarily a particular airline itself and the importance can vary in various regions.

Personally, I have zero issues not giving generous bailouts to airlines. Especially in a country where flying is expensive and most people don't step on an airplane at all in a given year. Asking those same folks to bail out airlines is pretty rich. There's also that hidden bailout of letting the carriers avoid refunds for a while.

I really hope this government gets concessions from the carriers before any bailout. Notably their historic lobbying and opposition to rail investment in the Quebec-Windsor and Calgary-Edmonton corridors.


Its not a bailout, the uneducated media loves to use those kinds of words as it sells but ots a federal aid loan, not a bailout. These airlines would owe back the money to the government. What would you do if the airlines go bankrupt? This country would come to a standstill


The country would be just fine. The CAF would take care of the northern communities. New airlines would buy up the assets and relaunch shortly thereafter. Let's not forget, nearly 60% of the country lives in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, with good roads and some train service. And a good bit of the rest of the population stays in pockets in the lower Mainland, Calgary-Edmonton and Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridors. The very fact that we've been managing pretty well without much air travel the last few months should put an end to this myth that Canada would face an existential crisis from the major carriers going under.

The only losers would be shareholders and employees. And of that group, most Canadians only really feel sorry for the latter. And even that's debatable with a good sized minority. 30" pitch and 17" seats is fantastic for winning public sympathy.


Time for the facts.
For a country that "stays in pockets" outside of southern Ontario and Quebec, it turns out our insignificant country of only 37 million (there's 38 countries with more people) has one of the world's top 10 most profitable airline routes (2019). And surprise surprise, it's YYZ-YVR. Also, worldwide (2018), Canada ranks 13 in number of people that fly in a year (again, we are number 39 in population). That should tell you all you need to know about the value of air travel in our sparsely populated, geographically vast nation. And no, the RCAF could not "take care of the north." Most of the communities north of the 60th parallel would be in crisis within 2 weeks without the airlines that serve it.
Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/08/13/most-profitable-airline-routes/?sh=6eeffb406963
https://www.citypopulation.de/en/world/bymap/airtrafficpassengers/
 
dr1980
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:53 pm

It would be political suicide for the Federal Government to further support Air Canada without passengers getting refunds for cancelled flights. I wouldn’t expect the government to flinch on that point and I’d be very disappointed if they did. If that’s part of the hold up Air Canada is going to have to get their heads wrapped around that fact as WestJet already has.
Dave/CYHZ
 
inAjet
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:25 pm

dr1980 wrote:
It would be political suicide for the Federal Government to further support Air Canada without passengers getting refunds for cancelled flights. I wouldn’t expect the government to flinch on that point and I’d be very disappointed if they did. If that’s part of the hold up Air Canada is going to have to get their heads wrapped around that fact as WestJet already has.

Penny-pinchers choosing to buy the cheapest, “non-refundable” fares and then demanding refunds is a bellwether of the zero-personal responsibility world we live in today. Let’s not forget that AC has already refunded over $1.3 billion in “refundable” fares.

I agree that, politically, these refunds are going to have to be tied to any federal aid package; however, this only empowers the unique sense of entitlement when it comes to air service that seems to exist in Canada.
 
EdmFlyBoi
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:58 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:37 pm

inAjet wrote:
Penny-pinchers choosing to buy the cheapest, “non-refundable” fares and then demanding refunds is a bellwether of the zero-personal responsibility world we live in today. Let’s not forget that AC has already refunded over $1.3 billion in “refundable” fares.

I agree that, politically, these refunds are going to have to be tied to any federal aid package; however, this only empowers the unique sense of entitlement when it comes to air service that seems to exist in Canada.


I don't think that what you are describing is a fair representation of the situation most purchasers are in. The idea that a fare is nonrefundable applies in a situation where the traveller can actually board an aircraft to the destination to which they bought a ticket. The idea that the airline can hold on to the funds in the absence of providing the service and then suggesting that the traveller is not entitled to a refund does, in many ways, violate the terms of service that the traveller agreed to when they purchased the ticket. When you buy a nonrefundable ticket, you are giving up the right to a refund because you then have the choice to travel or not. In most cases, travellers who bought the nonrefundable tickets had no ability to travel on the date in question, as there was no flight be operated. Had the flight actually operated, then it would make sense that a refund would not be provided. However, in many cases, especially in the first 3 months, there were no flights and so the purchaser could not actually travel.
 
inAjet
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:57 pm

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
The idea that a fare is nonrefundable applies in a situation where the traveller can actually board an aircraft to the destination to which they bought a ticket.

The terms according to which a refund applies in Canada is defined by the CTA, which has supported the airlines’ position in this regard.

A flight not departing due to a cause within an airline’s control is one thing, but a cancellation due to a pandemic is a whole other matter. It’s no coincidence pandemics are excluded in many travel insurance policies.

A customer’s monetary value put forward in a purchase contract should always be honoured, which in this case it is in the form of a voucher. The right to a cash refund is a privilege offered by the purchase of a typically more expensive fare, the difference in cost which can effectively be seen as a cancellation insurance premium.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:31 pm

The latest comments are all fair representations of opposing points of view and I'm impressed.

As far as I'm concerned the AC/Westjet duopoly are a very uncompetitive, typically Canadian approach to large business sectors of the economy. Think telecom, banking, media and so non (all cozy, federally protected "insider dominated" clubs).

Now that Westjet is part of the deep pockets Onex empire and AC has eliminated Transat as a competitor I don't feel too much sympathy for either. They are both well capitalized and overwhelmingly dominate one of the top ten economies of the world in terms of airline service operations.
If they were so desperate I'm sure a deal would have been done already.

I say keep the prepaid ticket revenue (the vouchers should be used soon), help the airports that Ottawa has been financially raping for decades and offer low interest loans that can be taken up if the duopoly struggles more than now if the pandemic degrades further. That could happen if the government screws up the vaccination program which I fear will come to pass.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:50 pm

inAjet wrote:

A customer’s monetary value put forward in a purchase contract should always be honoured, which in this case it is in the form of a voucher. The right to a cash refund is a privilege offered by the purchase of a typically more expensive fare, the difference in cost which can effectively be seen as a cancellation insurance premium.


I have to completely disagree. A cash refund is certainly not a privilege if the purchased article was not received. A refund is required to be paid in the form which was payment orginally taken. You seem to have a very strange mindset, and somewhat immaturity, to link a higher fare as a 'cancellation insurance policy', and which is inherently absolute nonsense. Flight changes/self-cancellation is one thing.....the flight itself being cancelled by the airline is a different thing entirely. I'm quite curious as to what products you would purchase but only to be be told you will receive a voucher when they are not delivered to you. I would say, with almost absolute certainty your actions would be of a very different sort to what you have described for others.
 
inAjet
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 7:03 pm

Vicenza wrote:
I'm quite curious as to what products you would purchase but only to be be told you will receive a voucher when they are not delivered to you. I would say, with almost absolute certainty your actions would be of a very different sort to what you have described for others.

I am accountable for my decisions. If I choose to enter into an agreement without reading the fine print and subsequently get burned by said fine print, I accept fault. Contrary to your ironic comment about immaturity, I would actually classify taking responsibility for one’s own decision as mature behaviour.

Airlines in no way mislead the public in the conditions attached to the purchase of these non-refundable fares.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:33 pm

mach86 wrote:


Time for the facts.
For a country that "stays in pockets" outside of southern Ontario and Quebec, it turns out our insignificant country of only 37 million (there's 38 countries with more people) has one of the world's top 10 most profitable airline routes (2019). And surprise surprise, it's YYZ-YVR. Also, worldwide (2018), Canada ranks 13 in number of people that fly in a year (again, we are number 39 in population). That should tell you all you need to know about the value of air travel in our sparsely populated, geographically vast nation. And no, the RCAF could not "take care of the north." Most of the communities north of the 60th parallel would be in crisis within 2 weeks without the airlines that serve it.
Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/08/13/most-profitable-airline-routes/?sh=6eeffb406963
https://www.citypopulation.de/en/world/bymap/airtrafficpassengers/


“Most profitable” is a useless metric if travellers are being priced out of the market. Cut flights by 50%, and you can make it even more profitable. And achieve nothing good (for the country, anyway).

Also, not sure about the veracity of the table you’ve linked, but the per capita flyer numbers (which is a far better metric of traffic generation than absolute numbers) puts Canada at 27 (?) or thereabouts - behind Australia, the UK, and the US.

Australia and the US are probably the best comparators given income levels and their size / geographic vastness. Australian air travel is 25% higher, the US is about 13% higher. The “facts” do not, therefore, prove whatever it is you set out to prove. To put it mildly, we’re underperforming compared to our peers by significant margins. Not something to gloat about.

The remaining EU countries (DEU, FRA, ITA, ESP), Japan etc are skewed by the fact that they have excellent high speed networks. If Canada were to put infrastructure or that quality in place on Windsor -Quebec, the YYZ-YUL-YOW golden triangle would, as the other poster suggests, take a real beating. I’m not really sure how anybody can objectively argue otherwise.

As to the rest, it’s all a non-sequitor. The government can temporarily or permanently nationalize all of the airlines of the north if need be - they’re fairly small, inexpensive operations that already have everything in place (pilots, hangars, airports etc). It really doesn’t have to become anything more than a change in who’s paying salaries - just like ONEX’s (?) takeover at WS. Worth noting that neither AC nor WS serve much of the “north”, so best to treat that as a separate ecosystem.
 
vedatil4
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:09 pm

Question: Before covid, it seemed like AirCanada was pushing US to Europe flights connecting through Toronto using a kind of "in-transit" building. This appears to be the layout according to their webpage: https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/hom ... t-int.html

What was not made 100% clear to me back then, or now, is if this transfer happens without spending time passing through Canada immigration and customs and officially entering Canada. Could someone explain? Let's say I wanted to fly San Diego to Madrid via Toronto (which I considered before covid). I'd only be in Canada for 2-3 hours. Is there a way to opt out of any customs or immigration inspections? (BTW: I love visiting Canada so no disrespect meant for the government there.)

I think Tijuana airport is building a similar terminal to bypass Mexico immigration and customs meant for inbound Asia flights. I brought this up on a separate thread.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
The latest comments are all fair representations of opposing points of view and I'm impressed.

As far as I'm concerned the AC/Westjet duopoly are a very uncompetitive, typically Canadian approach to large business sectors of the economy. Think telecom, banking, media and so non (all cozy, federally protected "insider dominated" clubs).

Now that Westjet is part of the deep pockets Onex empire and AC has eliminated Transat as a competitor I don't feel too much sympathy for either. They are both well capitalized and overwhelmingly dominate one of the top ten economies of the world in terms of airline service operations.
If they were so desperate I'm sure a deal would have been done already.

I say keep the prepaid ticket revenue (the vouchers should be used soon), help the airports that Ottawa has been financially raping for decades and offer low interest loans that can be taken up if the duopoly struggles more than now if the pandemic degrades further. That could happen if the government screws up the vaccination program which I fear will come to pass.


What would you do to get around Canada if both airlines went under overnight?
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:17 pm

dr1980 wrote:
It would be political suicide for the Federal Government to further support Air Canada without passengers getting refunds for cancelled flights. I wouldn’t expect the government to flinch on that point and I’d be very disappointed if they did. If that’s part of the hold up Air Canada is going to have to get their heads wrapped around that fact as WestJet already has.


Air Canada has publicly stated they have zero issues with giving out refunds but of course that doesn't make its way into any news article, so nothing personal but thats an invalid point. And AC has refunded all refundable fares and claims it was following CTAs guidelines and issuing vouchers, as was allowed by the govt and Westjet followed. Of course the media makes.it seem as if westjet is the only one to refund anyone.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:18 pm

inAjet wrote:
dr1980 wrote:
It would be political suicide for the Federal Government to further support Air Canada without passengers getting refunds for cancelled flights. I wouldn’t expect the government to flinch on that point and I’d be very disappointed if they did. If that’s part of the hold up Air Canada is going to have to get their heads wrapped around that fact as WestJet already has.

Penny-pinchers choosing to buy the cheapest, “non-refundable” fares and then demanding refunds is a bellwether of the zero-personal responsibility world we live in today. Let’s not forget that AC has already refunded over $1.3 billion in “refundable” fares.

I agree that, politically, these refunds are going to have to be tied to any federal aid package; however, this only empowers the unique sense of entitlement when it comes to air service that seems to exist in Canada.


Very well said. Poeple want first class experience for $100 and cry when they don't get it
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:24 pm

Let's not forget that Marc Garneau allowed airlines to give vouchers back in April/May, and is now calling for refunds.

The airlines and quite frankly the industries' call for help have been met with empty "we are in talks for federal aid for airlines", not once(May), not twice(Oct) but three times now(Nov) they simply don't care its purely political at this point. They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans, how embarrassing and appalling is that. Pathetic
 
inAjet
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:38 pm

777luver wrote:
They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans

Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:56 pm

inAjet wrote:
777luver wrote:
They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans

Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.


Lol - the failure to implement the Emerson recommendations, the joke that is APPR, Flight Duty Rules etc would have been far easier to nail the “unfriendly” airline industry on. That said, the then-AC COOs broadside against the Liberals back in 2010 or 2011 was a bit of an own goal (as a liberal to Tory turncoat, guess it comes with the territory).

Regardless, the fact that talks are taking place but not yielding results is an indicator of differences over the terms and conditions, not of government disinterest in helping. It suggests that the governments conditions aren’t acceptable to the airlines.

Which, to my mind, is fine. The government should represent taxpayer interests, and it should be a lender/intervenor of last resort. If we haven’t reached the point where Government intervention is necessary as a last resort, then that simply means that these airlines think they have better options. More power to them if they do.

If they don’t, then beggars can’t be choosers. LH wasn’t happy with the conditions of its bailout, but it accepted them. AC / WS et al don’t think they’re in the same position and are willing to ride it out. I’m essence, this is a “nothing to see here” situation. When shutdown point comes, airlines will take whatever the government offers -that’s the reality of ‘last resort’.

Seems the government is, at the very least, doing what it’s supposed to be doing.
 
HJM
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:58 pm

I believe that AC and Gov't have had discussions about assistance. However, AC has decided that for now better to go with other plans than what Gov't may have offered.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:11 pm

HJM wrote:
I believe that AC and Gov't have had discussions about assistance. However, AC has decided that for now better to go with other plans than what Gov't may have offered.


Iback in the spring and it was the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever thats called for large corporations to use, so far only 2 have taken up that loan. Its deemed inefficient because of the ridiculously high interest that doubled after the first year and came with about 10 strings attached.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:14 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
inAjet wrote:
777luver wrote:
They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans

Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.


Lol - the failure to implement the Emerson recommendations, the joke that is APPR, Flight Duty Rules etc would have been far easier to nail the “unfriendly” airline industry on. That said, the then-AC COOs broadside against the Liberals back in 2010 or 2011 was a bit of an own goal (as a liberal to Tory turncoat, guess it comes with the territory).

Regardless, the fact that talks are taking place but not yielding results is an indicator of differences over the terms and conditions, not of government disinterest in helping. It suggests that the governments conditions aren’t acceptable to the airlines.

Which, to my mind, is fine. The government should represent taxpayer interests, and it should be a lender/intervenor of last resort. If we haven’t reached the point where Government intervention is necessary as a last resort, then that simply means that these airlines think they have better options. More power to them if they do.

If they don’t, then beggars can’t be choosers. LH wasn’t happy with the conditions of its bailout, but it accepted them. AC / WS et al don’t think they’re in the same position and are willing to ride it out. I’m essence, this is a “nothing to see here” situation. When shutdown point comes, airlines will take whatever the government offers -that’s the reality of ‘last resort’.

Seems the government is, at the very least, doing what it’s supposed to be doing.


AC and Westjet were both offered the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever its called back in the spring. If it was so efficient and effective (had high interest among other things) then why have only 2 companies used it to date? There's a TON of money sitting there to be used but isn't. If a loan comes with 10 or however many strings attached for your business to comply with lus high interest, would you take it? AC and WS both walked away
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:15 pm

inAjet wrote:
777luver wrote:
They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans

Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.


To add to insult, who brought back Canadians and PPE at the beginning of this pandemic, the airlines, and this is what they get in return.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:17 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
inAjet wrote:
777luver wrote:
They would rather save face and boast about the wage subsidy while completely ignoring the fact that airlines are bleeding billions while other airlines around US, Europe are on their 2nd round of loans

Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.


Lol - the failure to implement the Emerson recommendations, the joke that is APPR, Flight Duty Rules etc would have been far easier to nail the “unfriendly” airline industry on. That said, the then-AC COOs broadside against the Liberals back in 2010 or 2011 was a bit of an own goal (as a liberal to Tory turncoat, guess it comes with the territory).

Regardless, the fact that talks are taking place but not yielding results is an indicator of differences over the terms and conditions, not of government disinterest in helping. It suggests that the governments conditions aren’t acceptable to the airlines.

Which, to my mind, is fine. The government should represent taxpayer interests, and it should be a lender/intervenor of last resort. If we haven’t reached the point where Government intervention is necessary as a last resort, then that simply means that these airlines think they have better options. More power to them if they do.

If they don’t, then beggars can’t be choosers. LH wasn’t happy with the conditions of its bailout, but it accepted them. AC / WS et al don’t think they’re in the same position and are willing to ride it out. I’m essence, this is a “nothing to see here” situation. When shutdown point comes, airlines will take whatever the government offers -that’s the reality of ‘last resort’.

Seems the government is, at the very least, doing what it’s supposed to be doing.


This is not a nothing to see here situation, its a govt complete lack of inaction and failure to help its airlines, plain and simple.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:20 pm

777luver wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
inAjet wrote:
Exactly - it’s all political. The response to COVID-19 has become a political game, and Trudeau’s government will stop at nothing to make themselves look like heroes. They will continue to use the Canadian predisposition against airlines as a justification to divert funds to other industries that have historically been Liberal allies.


Lol - the failure to implement the Emerson recommendations, the joke that is APPR, Flight Duty Rules etc would have been far easier to nail the “unfriendly” airline industry on. That said, the then-AC COOs broadside against the Liberals back in 2010 or 2011 was a bit of an own goal (as a liberal to Tory turncoat, guess it comes with the territory).

Regardless, the fact that talks are taking place but not yielding results is an indicator of differences over the terms and conditions, not of government disinterest in helping. It suggests that the governments conditions aren’t acceptable to the airlines.

Which, to my mind, is fine. The government should represent taxpayer interests, and it should be a lender/intervenor of last resort. If we haven’t reached the point where Government intervention is necessary as a last resort, then that simply means that these airlines think they have better options. More power to them if they do.

If they don’t, then beggars can’t be choosers. LH wasn’t happy with the conditions of its bailout, but it accepted them. AC / WS et al don’t think they’re in the same position and are willing to ride it out. I’m essence, this is a “nothing to see here” situation. When shutdown point comes, airlines will take whatever the government offers -that’s the reality of ‘last resort’.

Seems the government is, at the very least, doing what it’s supposed to be doing.


AC and Westjet were both offered the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever its called back in the spring. If it was so efficient and effective (had high interest among other things) then why have only 2 companies used it to date? There's a TON of money sitting there to be used but isn't. If a loan comes with 10 or however many strings attached for your business to comply with lus high interest, would you take it? AC and WS both walked away


To add to that, a couple million dollar loan is peanuts to an airline industry
Last edited by 777luver on Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:28 pm

777luver wrote:
HJM wrote:
I believe that AC and Gov't have had discussions about assistance. However, AC has decided that for now better to go with other plans than what Gov't may have offered.


Iback in the spring and it was the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever thats called for large corporations to use, so far only 2 have taken up that loan. Its deemed inefficient because of the ridiculously high interest that doubled after the first year and came with about 10 strings attached.


LEEF loan
 
777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:29 pm

777luver wrote:
HJM wrote:
I believe that AC and Gov't have had discussions about assistance. However, AC has decided that for now better to go with other plans than what Gov't may have offered.


Iback in the spring and it was the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever thats called for large corporations to use, so far only 2 have taken up that loan. Its deemed inefficient because of the ridiculously high interest that doubled after the first year and came with about 10 strings attached.


LEEF loan
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:40 am

777luver wrote:

AC and Westjet were both offered the extremely inefficient LFFT loan or whatever its called back in the spring. If it was so efficient and effective (had high interest among other things) then why have only 2 companies used it to date? There's a TON of money sitting there to be used but isn't. If a loan comes with 10 or however many strings attached for your business to comply with lus high interest, would you take it? AC and WS both walked away


Sorry, but it’s fundamentally inaccurate to say there is a “TON of money sitting there to be used.” That money isn’t government revenue collecting dust.

It’s money that’s been borrowed by leveraging taxpayers. If it doesn’t absolutely need to be spent, it absolutely should not be spent. If it is, then the cost of administering, disbursing, collecting and interest needs to be factored in so that there are no long term costs to taxpayers. If airlines can do better, they should.

I should add that AC has publicly rejected some of the conditions that other governments have imposed in return for aid, like equity stakes in the airline. So it’s a bit disingenuous to say aid wasn’t offered;. It has; it just hasn’t been accepted by airlines that want to dictate the terms.

And don’t worry about AC going under. It won’t. Worst case it’ll get nationalized.
 
User avatar
Exrampieyyz
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:04 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:30 pm

How bout the government paying back the refunds. They screwed up by letting the virus get out of hand. (More lock downs earlier, being more prepared)
The flights were cancelled because of the virus. Not the airlines fault. The refunds are for non refundable tickets. This would take a big load off the airlines, so less bail out needed and the government would look good.
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777luver
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:28 pm

Exrampieyyz wrote:
How bout the government paying back the refunds. They screwed up by letting the virus get out of hand. (More lock downs earlier, being more prepared)
The flights were cancelled because of the virus. Not the airlines fault. The refunds are for non refundable tickets. This would take a big load off the airlines, so less bail out needed and the government would look good.


Exactly, none of this is any airlines' fault, and most of the other airlines were able to refund right away because they got help right off the bat plain and simple
 
dr1980
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:55 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread

Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:30 pm

777luver wrote:
Air Canada has publicly stated they have zero issues with giving out refunds but of course that doesn't make its way into any news article, so nothing personal but thats an invalid point. And AC has refunded all refundable fares and claims it was following CTAs guidelines and issuing vouchers, as was allowed by the govt and Westjet followed. Of course the media makes.it seem as if westjet is the only one to refund anyone.


Sure they’ve refunded fares that people could get refunds under any circumstances...they certainly don’t have “zero issues” with refunding all fares. Air Canada’s messages that they are freely refunding refundable fares are completely tone deaf. WestJet is certainly the only one of the two that is refunding economy fares, which don’t forget is the vast majority of Canadians. Most Canadians are not super special elite fliers.

It comes down to this for me. I bought air fares on both WestJet and Air Canada. Neither delivered the product/services I paid for. Both were basic/economy fares to Europe. I have already received my refund from WestJet, Air Canada has told me to go pound sand and refuses to even acknowledge the money I paid for my seat upgrades even in the form of a voucher. Saying they are in alignment with the law (which is debatable) is a pretty big slap in the face to customers...even if they are in compliance with the law that’s the minimum, there’s a big customer relations piece here that they seem to have decided isn’t important.

So their main competitor has issued refunds, their US counterparts have issued refunds, yet they stubbornly refuse to do so. Seems like a bad move in the long term, I know I will avoid them whenever I have the option (I pretty much always have options for the places I need to fly to).

Air Canada just continues to give the general public reasons to hate them.
Dave/CYHZ

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