XRadar98
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 4:23 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:19 am

bigb wrote:
kyrone wrote:
Have any of the non U.S. Airlines laid off any of their U.S. based staff yet?


Yes, Skywest and Commutair have officially laid pilots off.


The question is NON US airlines and US based staff.

I have not seen anything that can answer the question
 
scoping2008
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:49 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
SooLineRob wrote:
Just to clarify: The "optics" of a union leader demanding the government "Give us our money!" aren't going to sit well with people.

We all realize people and businesses are going to need (another) bailout. Who gets what will make the difference in how fast we recover.


Would be nice to see a more shared sacrifice at airlines. It is sad everything is based on seniority. Could senior employees take some big paycuts to save junior employees or work less so junior people have a chance? It does not seem right to sacrifice junior people for the benefit of those who have been around longer.

It makes no sense to cut someone just because they have 2 years vs. 15 years. Some of the best service and care I have gotten from UA and DL in the past few years are from their junior employees!! I have awful flights on some long hauls staffed by senior employees who need to retire or find a job that doesn't make them interact with people. It is sad to see great workers let go first! There are some great senior people as well, but it seems like they should have across the board paycuts or cuts in hours to save more people. Just because it is the way it has always been does not make it ethical, fair, or right. I hope any bailout with recognize junior people as they are just starting out.


I don't see anything unfair or unethical about how the seniority system works. Most senior crew members have been through this process before and one point or another during their career (economic downturns, seasonal staffing adjustments, 9/11, etc.). They've paid their dues. My spouse has been a flight attendant for almost 30 years for the same carrier. He's been furloughed 3 times and force-based 4 times over that timespan. Personally, some of the friendliest flight attendants I've encountered are very senior.
 
Ammad
Topic Author
Posts: 321
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:10 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:39 am

Air Canada is laying off more than 5,000 flight attendants as the country's largest airline cuts routes amid plunging demand. The layoffs will take effect by April and affect roughly 60% of flight attendants. Air Canada says it will suspend most of its international and U.S. flights by March 31.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1781
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:45 am

The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:48 am

KFTG wrote:
I have debated taking one of the various LOAs being offered as well as a reduced schedule. What worries me is taking the reduced schedule and then being considered "part time" in the eyes of the gov't. At which point surely this would lower any unemployment claim I would submit. Is my thinking wrong here?

Good time to invest in companies that do recurrent training on popular platforms, like the E175 or Axxx. Huge demand for sim time when everything starts gearing up again.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:40 am

COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it

Unfortunately, it can also work against you: if permanently layoffs occur the most expensive ones are out the door first.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6940
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:56 pm

COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:45 pm

The medical profession does fine without unions and seniority.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:48 pm

eta unknown wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it

Unfortunately, it can also work against you: if permanently layoffs occur the most expensive ones are out the door first.

No last hired first fired. Layoffs are done by seniority
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:49 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
The medical profession does fine without unions and seniority.

Many hospitals nurses are unionized. So your statement is incorrect.

https://www.unionfacts.com/locals/Ameri ... ssociation
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:30 pm

eta unknown wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it

Unfortunately, it can also work against you: if permanently layoffs occur the most expensive ones are out the door first.


Was there a precedent of that, ever, in US airlines history, with unionized workforce?

MIflyer12 wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/


They can, but that is a long and difficult road after 1983 (before, it wasn't, and Continental pilots' contract was voided simply by virtue of bankruptcy. US laws were changed after that).
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it

Unfortunately, it can also work against you: if permanently layoffs occur the most expensive ones are out the door first.


Was there a precedent of that, ever, in US airlines history, with unionized workforce?

MIflyer12 wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/


They can, but that is a long and difficult road after 1983 (before, it wasn't, and Continental pilots' contract was voided simply by virtue of bankruptcy. US laws were changed after that).

Section 1113 C of the code makes the company have to negotiate with the unions, if no agreement can be reached the Judge can abrogate the contract and impose the final offer.

I was on the IAM Mechanic and Related Negotiating Committee at US Airways during the second bankruptcy and our contract was abrogated and the Judge made us vote on the final offer
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:52 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
...
Section 1113 C of the code makes the company have to negotiate with the unions, if no agreement can be reached the Judge can abrogate the contract and impose the final offer.

I was on the IAM Mechanic and Related Negotiating Committee at US Airways during the second bankruptcy and our contract was abrogated and the Judge made us vote on the final offer

My sympathies. But at least they had to negotiate with you, before petitioning the judge to void the contract?

Because folks at CO in 1983 simply had their contract canceled, no bargaining, correct?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:54 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
...
Section 1113 C of the code makes the company have to negotiate with the unions, if no agreement can be reached the Judge can abrogate the contract and impose the final offer.

I was on the IAM Mechanic and Related Negotiating Committee at US Airways during the second bankruptcy and our contract was abrogated and the Judge made us vote on the final offer

My sympathies. But at least they had to negotiate with you, before petitioning the judge to void the contract?

Because folks at CO in 1983 simply had their contract canceled, no bargaining, correct?

Correct, because of Lorenzo Congress enacted Section 1113 and 1114 of the code. And the company in our negotiations weren’t bargaining in good faith, the judge was in their pocket as he was the same judge we had in the first bankruptcy.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6940
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:11 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it

Unfortunately, it can also work against you: if permanently layoffs occur the most expensive ones are out the door first.


Was there a precedent of that, ever, in US airlines history, with unionized workforce?

MIflyer12 wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/


They can, but that is a long and difficult road after 1983 (before, it wasn't, and Continental pilots' contract was voided simply by virtue of bankruptcy. US laws were changed after that).


Less than three weeks passed between AMR's amended motion in 2012 and the judge's decision to terminate. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/busi ... tract.html

This time they ought to be smart enough to frame it correctly in the first motion.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:29 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
...
Section 1113 C of the code makes the company have to negotiate with the unions, if no agreement can be reached the Judge can abrogate the contract and impose the final offer.

I was on the IAM Mechanic and Related Negotiating Committee at US Airways during the second bankruptcy and our contract was abrogated and the Judge made us vote on the final offer

My sympathies. But at least they had to negotiate with you, before petitioning the judge to void the contract?

Because folks at CO in 1983 simply had their contract canceled, no bargaining, correct?

Correct, because of Lorenzo Congress enacted Section 1113 and 1114 of the code. And the company in our negotiations weren’t bargaining in good faith, the judge was in their pocket as he was the same judge we had in the first bankruptcy.


oh dear... so much for "due process"...
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:39 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
My sympathies. But at least they had to negotiate with you, before petitioning the judge to void the contract?

Because folks at CO in 1983 simply had their contract canceled, no bargaining, correct?

Correct, because of Lorenzo Congress enacted Section 1113 and 1114 of the code. And the company in our negotiations weren’t bargaining in good faith, the judge was in their pocket as he was the same judge we had in the first bankruptcy.


oh dear... so much for "due process"...

Exactly. Never understood how the court would allow the same judge as in the first case when he approved the POR and a year later we were back in bankruptcy
 
KFTG
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:46 pm

United now offering early retirements for all employees.
 
496TFS
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:23 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:01 pm

American has cancelled all training on the 767/757 fleet for April and May. Initial and recurrent training. Ground instructors and simulator instructors are hanging in limbo, but paid so far. Voluntary leave requests close on Monday evening. The 767/757 fleet is undoubtedly toast at AA.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2554
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/



United Airlines when we went through bankruptcy threaten union employees with this, and if I'm not mistaken I believe or at least it was rumored that UA did in fact try during bankruptcy to get the judge to void out all labor contracts.

It was no secret that the judge was in UA's pocket but even with the judge in their pocket he still forced (or that what the rumor was back then) UA back to the bargaining table refusing to void out the contracts. Judges know they have that power but in recent history they have been very reluctant to use it because it. United then used that same judge when the pilots union sued UA after we emerged from bankruptcy protection and it was revealed that UA mysteriously found hundreds of millions of dollars and some of that money was given to executives as bonuses and executive compensation. The judge ruled against the pilots union and allowed UA to keep the money and pay bonus and give raises to executives.
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:21 pm

bigb wrote:
kyrone wrote:
Have any of the non U.S. Airlines laid off any of their U.S. based staff yet?


Yes, Skywest and Commutair have officially laid pilots off.


Source? At OO the deadline to apply for voluntary time off was 3/24. I can't imagine folks would be laid off before they know how many volunteers there are.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:27 pm

jayunited wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
COSPN wrote:
The 3 things that count in this business, seniority, seniority, seniority....there is just no other way to do it


Sure there is, at least in the U.S. Bankruptcy judges can void labor contracts. If AA (or another) shows the judge that it can't operate with its 4,000 most senior pilots (because they aren't immediately qualified to operate the full variety of types needed by AA to stay viable) ... BOOM!

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/aa-pi ... t/1929842/



United Airlines when we went through bankruptcy threaten union employees with this, and if I'm not mistaken I believe or at least it was rumored that UA did in fact try during bankruptcy to get the judge to void out all labor contracts.

It was no secret that the judge was in UA's pocket but even with the judge in their pocket he still forced (or that what the rumor was back then) UA back to the bargaining table refusing to void out the contracts. Judges know they have that power but in recent history they have been very reluctant to use it because it. United then used that same judge when the pilots union sued UA after we emerged from bankruptcy protection and it was revealed that UA mysteriously found hundreds of millions of dollars and some of that money was given to executives as bonuses and executive compensation. The judge ruled against the pilots union and allowed UA to keep the money and pay bonus and give raises to executives.


Not true the last bankruptcy was AA in 2012 and the judge abrogated the pilots contract but the company and union did reach an agreement. And the Judge let Horton get his $20 million to leave.
 
bigb
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:35 pm

oosnowrat wrote:
bigb wrote:
kyrone wrote:
Have any of the non U.S. Airlines laid off any of their U.S. based staff yet?


Yes, Skywest and Commutair have officially laid pilots off.


Source? At OO the deadline to apply for voluntary time off was 3/24. I can't imagine folks would be laid off before they know how many volunteers there are.


Skywest has sent their new hire pilots in training home without pay and Mesa has furloughed its new hire pilots so far. My sources are my contacts in with said carriers I have mentioned.
 
adambrau
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:25 am

XRadar98 wrote:
bigb wrote:
kyrone wrote:
Have any of the non U.S. Airlines laid off any of their U.S. based staff yet?


Yes, Skywest and Commutair have officially laid pilots off.


The question is NON US airlines and US based staff.

I have not seen anything that can answer the question


me neither
 
adambrau
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:16 pm

adambrau wrote:
XRadar98 wrote:
bigb wrote:

Yes, Skywest and Commutair have officially laid pilots off.


The question is NON US airlines and US based staff.

I have not seen anything that can answer the question


AF-KL USA is maintaining staff with various options. No layoffs at this time.
 
AA747123
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:15 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:23 pm

Best wishes to those effected by layoffs. This job really "gets in your blood" and becomes a way of life for most of us. Those we work with become family members.
 
Avgeek21
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:44 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:17 pm

flydubai has been offering Voluntary Paid Leave every week since the MAX grounding. Many take it. Now they just announced pay cuts in basic salary only due to COVID-19 for 3 months. A 50% basic cut for Pilots, not sure about Cabin Crew but I suspect it's 25%. No redundancies, even with 0 flights these days. They've actually been really good in their communication and response from what I hear. Note flydubai is not part of the Emirates Group but only has the same ultimate stakeholder. Maybe the MAX grounding has been a blessing in disguise. Just maybe...
 
jersey777
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:11 pm

The legislation means the billions of dollars in government support will NOT fund stock buybacks and executive compensation. Instead, aid relief will support saving our jobs and our paychecks. By granting federal aid to the airlines, lawmakers stipulated that airline workers cannot be furloughed through the end of September. These worker protections would not have been possible without strong input from labor.


From the APFA hotline today. Looks like no US major will be laying off employees.
 
jersey777
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:11 pm

[quote="jersey777"]The legislation means the billions of dollars in government support will NOT fund stock buybacks and executive compensation. Instead, aid relief will support saving our jobs and our paychecks. By granting federal aid to the airlines, lawmakers stipulated that airline workers cannot be furloughed through the end of September. These worker protections would not have been possible without strong input from labor.


From the APFA hotline today. Looks like no US major will be not be laying off employees for awhile. /quote]
 
N649DL
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 pm

jayunited wrote:
Still no layoff numbers here at UA yet.

UA is offering up to 6 months unpaid leave, employees don't have to take the whole 6 months each department can decide how much or little block time they think their employees would be comfortable with, I think the lowest amount I've seen is a week. UA will allow full-time employees to work part-time hours while keeping their full-time benefits. This is huge because a lot of employees have stated they would be willing to work part-time if it means saving another coworker from a layoff, so this is now being offered.

All of these programs are an attempt to keep as many employees on the payroll while still reducing expenses, hopefully we get enough employee participation people taking a week or two weeks perhaps even a month of no pay. Ground employees voluntarily reducing their work hours from 40 to 20 per week. If we get enough employee participation the number of layoffs may not be as bad as originally anticipated (rumored). At the end of the day UA just needs to reduced expenses and save money how we get there total depends on how many employees take UA up on these offers. In management there are some employees who have offered to take a temporary pay cut if that pay cut means less people get layoff.


I wonder: Is it possible for some Flight Attendants to temporarily transfer to another division at UAL while on hiatus (EG: Cargo Division or back-end office work) or get additional certifications or training? I would also think for younger Pilots (and the fact that there was going to be a shortage before the virus) it could be a good time for some to hang at the training center in Denver to train on aircraft with more seniority.

496TFS wrote:
American has cancelled all training on the 767/757 fleet for April and May. Initial and recurrent training. Ground instructors and simulator instructors are hanging in limbo, but paid so far. Voluntary leave requests close on Monday evening. The 767/757 fleet is undoubtedly toast at AA.


AA is drawing down their 757 and 763 fleets. Why would they provide training when those are likely very senior pilots from AW, US, and AA are likely holding those positions until retirement? It could be that when those folks retire, so does the actual fleet type by coincidence.

I would say the AA 763ER fleet is buying time but the 757s were filling in for the grounded MAX fleet before the virus. Aside the PHX-Based ex-US fleet, I would think the rest of the legacy AA 757s will be around for a little while once we rebound from this.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2554
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:20 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Not true the last bankruptcy was AA in 2012 and the judge abrogated the pilots contract but the company and union did reach an agreement. And the Judge let Horton get his $20 million to leave.



I said very reluctant to use it and most judges are reluctant to use it.

Even in AA's case with the judge abrogating the pilots contract AA could have requested the judge to impose AA's own terms but that didn't happen instead an agreement was reached. When a contract in abrogated by a judge a judge can make a ruling in favor of the companies proposal. Most judges would rather see a union and a company come to an agreement instead of just imposing wage, benefits and and other concessions on a union workforce. By your own admission AA and the pilots came to an agreement the judge did not use all the power given them under the law.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:14 pm

jayunited wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Not true the last bankruptcy was AA in 2012 and the judge abrogated the pilots contract but the company and union did reach an agreement. And the Judge let Horton get his $20 million to leave.



I said very reluctant to use it and most judges are reluctant to use it.

Even in AA's case with the judge abrogating the pilots contract AA could have requested the judge to impose AA's own terms but that didn't happen instead an agreement was reached. When a contract in abrogated by a judge a judge can make a ruling in favor of the companies proposal. Most judges would rather see a union and a company come to an agreement instead of just imposing wage, benefits and and other concessions on a union workforce. By your own admission AA and the pilots came to an agreement the judge did not use all the power given them under the law.

I know what an abrogation is, I lived it at US Airways, I was on the mechanic and related negotiating committee, our CBA was abrogated.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2554
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:51 am

Boof02671 wrote:
I know what an abrogation is, I lived it at US Airways, I was on the mechanic and related negotiating committee, our CBA was abrogated.


In the US Airways case did the judge exercise all of the authority given under the law and impose his/her judgement on a union workforce? Or did US Airways and the union come to an agreement?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:03 pm

jayunited wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I know what an abrogation is, I lived it at US Airways, I was on the mechanic and related negotiating committee, our CBA was abrogated.


In the US Airways case did the judge exercise all of the authority given under the law and impose his/her judgement on a union workforce? Or did US Airways and the union come to an agreement?

He abrogated the CBA, we never reached an agreement and he forced us to vote on the final offer, if it was rejected he would impose it anyhow.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15645
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:44 pm

jersey777 wrote:
The legislation means the billions of dollars in government support will NOT fund stock buybacks and executive compensation. Instead, aid relief will support saving our jobs and our paychecks. By granting federal aid to the airlines, lawmakers stipulated that airline workers cannot be furloughed through the end of September. These worker protections would not have been possible without strong input from labor.


From the APFA hotline today. Looks like no US major will be laying off employees.


For now. When Congress and the Administration put this legislation together, they included the provision about no change to “rate of pay or involuntary layoff/furlough through September 30th,” likely with the mindset that all airline employees would remain absolutely whole, continuing to contribute to the economy as if nothing happened, not considering that reduced flight operations means a smaller headcount required so they’d reduce everyone’s hours instead. And that’s already happening, starting with non-represented employees being required to take cuts in hours/take off one or more days per pay period unpaid.

The anticipation is April is horrible and May is even worse, so Q2 is a lost cause, slowly ramping up Q3 and MAYBE seeing a recovery into Q4. But at that time, if operations aren’t close to where they were pre-Coronavirus, you can definitely expect furloughs and/or giveback negotiations with represented workgroups.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Breathe
Posts: 604
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:44 pm

Not sure why my original post was deleted. Mods if you could message me what rule I broke, that might help, so I know what not to post again.

Anyway, awful news for the 17,000 workers losing their job.

https://www.cityam.com/aviation-service ... virus-hit/
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4343
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:06 pm

Airlines should consider distributing some of this stock they bought back to their employees to help make them whole and keep them motivated during the recovery.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1845
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:21 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Airlines should consider distributing some of this stock they bought back to their employees to help make them whole and keep them motivated during the recovery.

That stock was retired.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 7088
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:41 pm

My friend has lost his job at Gate Gourmet at Gatwick.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3101
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:42 pm

Not surprising, would expect massive layoffs at all of them......WFS, Menzies, Dnata, Swissport, PrimeFlight, etc.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1199
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:43 pm

Is that just the UK total or worldwide?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15645
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:48 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Airlines should consider distributing some of this stock they bought back to their employees to help make them whole and keep them motivated during the recovery.

That stock was retired.


Exactly. The whole reason to buy back (what you consider to be) excess stock is to retire it, increasing the price of the remaining outstanding shares. It’s putting capital to use, increasing the ROI to your shareholders.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:01 pm

I asked this same question about Dnata when EK group said nobody is being let go- oh yeah, sure about that statement?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:11 pm

That's a risk one takes when accepting a job with a vendor. The margins are thin and in a situation like these the mainline carrier will only be concerned about preserving its own existence. It certainly won't be funneling money to its vendors.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4343
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:15 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Airlines should consider distributing some of this stock they bought back to their employees to help make them whole and keep them motivated during the recovery.

That stock was retired.

They could just reissue it and dilute the ownership group.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4343
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Airlines should consider distributing some of this stock they bought back to their employees to help make them whole and keep them motivated during the recovery.

That stock was retired.


Exactly. The whole reason to buy back (what you consider to be) excess stock is to retire it, increasing the price of the remaining outstanding shares. It’s putting capital to use, increasing the ROI to your shareholders.

Well that’s moot at this point. Let some of the little guys that get the companies through ride the next wave up.
 
KFTG
Posts: 531
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:22 pm

N649DL wrote:
I would also think for younger Pilots (and the fact that there was going to be a shortage before the virus) it could be a good time for some to hang at the training center in Denver to train on aircraft with more seniority.

That isn't how any of this works. At all.
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
That's a risk one takes when accepting a job with a vendor. The margins are thin and in a situation like these the mainline carrier will only be concerned about preserving its own existence. It certainly won't be funneling money to its vendors.


What nonsense. Do you honestly think the frontline staff are presented with a pie chart of the company's finances when presented with the offer letter for the job?
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 pm

UA772IAD wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
That's a risk one takes when accepting a job with a vendor. The margins are thin and in a situation like these the mainline carrier will only be concerned about preserving its own existence. It certainly won't be funneling money to its vendors.


What nonsense. Do you honestly think the frontline staff are presented with a pie chart of the company's finances when presented with the offer letter for the job?


it's not nonsense. There's not going to be many companies, in any industry, propping up their employment vendors. In many cases, they will cease payments to vendors and go delinquent.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Menzies axes 17,500 staff

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:32 pm

These days how many airlines do their own handling outside their home country anyway? That entire function has sadly largely been outsourced.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos