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CanesFan
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Re: AA Furlough > Flowback?

Wed May 27, 2020 2:36 am

Woodreau wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It was never in the contract guys.


The flowback provision was in Letter 3 of the ALPA Eagle contract / Supp W of the APA contract. Both of those contracts have been replaced by new contracts since 2013 which do not have the option of flowback.


^^^^This!
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: AA Furlough > Flowback?

Wed May 27, 2020 3:28 am

I guess something you could debate is whether there /should/ be flowback.

I’d say no, especially with a furlough this big (or rather, with a drastic cut in flying this big). You’d probably drain everyone flying at the regionals now with everyone at the majors downgrading. I’d say there would be a lot of retraining involved getting them back on types they’re rusty on or new in general. They’ll get their job at the major back soon enough, hopefully. IMO there’s a willful choice taken to risk being at the bottom and ending up worst off when you upgrade than staying at the regionals. Everyone will do it. Unless someone’s that one guy who’s been at the regional for 20+ years flying... e175s or something.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: AA Furlough > Flowback?

Thu May 28, 2020 4:44 pm

From a friend of mine at AA who mentors new hire pilots. The pilots in the March 17th new hire class who were sent home before starting training are being told they will start training after the awards from the current vacancy/displacement bid are finalized next month.

I can't believe they would put them through training if they were planning to furlough them in October, but stranger things have happened.
 
dcajet
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Aerolineas Argentinas lays off up to 8,000 staff

Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:05 am

Argentina's flag carrier is laying off around 8,000 staff members, initially until September. This is around 66% of its staff.

https://www.clarin.com/politica/coronav ... rPgu0.html
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
Antarius
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas lays off up to 8,000 staff

Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:18 am

Thought this day would never come. AR historically has been a worse use of money than just lighting pallets of money on fire.
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LatinPlane
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas lays off up to 8,000 staff

Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:44 am

The term "Layoff" is incorrect. The article mentions that the 8000 aforementioned employees will be suspended on somewhat of a "furlough" although obtaining 75% of their normal base pay, but without any other social benefit pay as normally required by Argentine labor law. Hardly a reason to think this is going to turn the historical circumstances of AR.

Granted this would be the perfect time for the company to shed of its excessive politically appointed staff, but in reality nobody believes this is going to happen.
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dcajet
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Re: Aerolineas Argentinas lays off up to 8,000 staff

Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:01 am

LatinPlane wrote:
The term "Layoff" is incorrect. The article mentions that the 8000 aforementioned employees will be suspended on somewhat of a "furlough" although obtaining 75% of their normal base pay, but without any other social benefit pay as normally required by Argentine labor law. Hardly a reason to think this is going to turn the historical circumstances of AR.

Granted this would be the perfect time for the company to shed of its excessive politically appointed staff, but in reality nobody believes this is going to happen.


A layoff is the temporary suspension or permanent termination of employment of an employee or, more commonly, a group of employees for business reasons, such as personnel management or downsizing of an organization.

It is, therefore, correctly used in the above post.

The payment would be a non remunerative one time payment of ~80% of the monthly base salary, plus medical insurance coverage (obra social) during the time of the suspension.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/efecto ... pensiones/

I don't think anyone has any expectations of this being the beginning of a new era, but it's a pretty significant event for an airline that has almost always been run as an employment agency of the unions and certain political actors.
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dstblj52
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Re: Airlines unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:09 am

N649DL wrote:
KFTG wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I would also think for younger Pilots (and the fact that there was going to be a shortage before the virus) it could be a good time for some to hang at the training center in Denver to train on aircraft with more seniority.

That isn't how any of this works. At all.


Jesus Christ. Just trying to be a little optimistic brah.

What the seniority of your equipment is kind of not relevant when it comes to furloughs if they furlough 2k pilots and you're in the most junior 2k your out regardless of what your equipment is if I was a junior pilot at a major today I would be much more interested in a crj or Ejet type rating then a 777 type. Look at most airlines you really have three seniority numbers your total seniority number which determines what type of equipment you can bid when there are seats available unless you get bumped off your current equipment in which case you can bump anymore junior then you of their equipment and they can do the same to anyone more junior than themselves. While you're in base seniority generally determines what days off you can get and what trips you can pick up. While you're in type seniority determines who can get a captain seat on that specific aircraft, except at some airlines where that is tied to your total seniority.
 
MIflyer12
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Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:56 pm

TOULOUSE/PARIS (Reuters) - Airbus on Tuesday unveiled plans to shed around 15,000 jobs including 900 already earmarked in Germany, saying its future was at stake after the coronavirus pandemic rocked the air travel industry.

The logo of Airbus is pictured at the entrance of the Airbus facility in Bouguenais, near Nantes, France, June 30, 2020. REUTERS/Stephane Mahe
Europe’s biggest aerospace group said it would cut some 5,000 posts in France, 5,100 in Germany, 900 in Spain, 1,700 in the UK and 1,300 elsewhere for a core total of 14,000.

Additionally, the company has already agreed to cut 900 jobs at its Premium AEROTEC unit in Germany.


www.reuters.com/article/us-airbus-restr ... SKBN24112F

And, as one might expect, the French state disagrees.

PARIS (Reuters) - European planemaker Airbus’ plans to shed 15,000 jobs are “excessive” and need to be revised, a French Finance Ministry source said on Tuesday after the announced cuts.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... 413A4?il=0
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:15 pm

Unfortunate news for Airbus, its employees, its suppliers, and the entire industry. Another ripple in the pond.

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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:19 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Unfortunate news for Airbus, its employees, its suppliers, and the entire industry. Another ripple in the pond.

We. Are. Just. Getting. Started. With. This. Folks.

Very unfortunate. The cuts are not enough. I'm not saying the competitor will do any better, but airlines will have a shortage of money and the whole credit binge must be processed.

Until we read about all the returned leased aircraft being in demand, we will have trouble. We all recall 9/11, but the US returned aircraft that were in demand shortly afterwards (minus the 727s and others scrapped). This is the first time I am aware of where the entire global airline Industry was trying to return aircraft.

We will recover, but I personally believe that production is still too high.

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MIflyer12
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:23 am

Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE


This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry
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tvh
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:20 pm

how many jobs are there with airbus ?
 
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:31 pm

tvh wrote:
how many jobs are there with airbus ?

According to the article, ~135,000
 
CometOrbit
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:38 pm

tvh wrote:
how many jobs are there with airbus ?


Airbus employs 134 000 worldwide.
The 15 000 job losses are in civil aviation; the defence and space businesses are not affected.
Production cuts at Airbus will also affect suppliers, notably the engine makers.
 
boerje
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:42 pm

From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:
 
mxaxai
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:01 pm

CometOrbit wrote:
The 15 000 job losses are in civil aviation; the defence and space businesses are not affected.

Minor correction: The defence and space business is also facing job cuts, albeit for different reasons. These were announced earlier this year.
 
airhansa
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:11 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE


This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry


A lot of the workers can go into another field with little training. The main jobs that are hard to move are pilots.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:20 pm

boerje wrote:
From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:

The world of learning how to count starts at 0. Current decade is 2020-2029 inclusive.

How many of the 135K is in the commercial aircraft sector? What fraction of them will 15k constitute?

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LaunchDetected
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:53 pm

airhansa wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE


This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry


A lot of the workers can go into another field with little training. The main jobs that are hard to move are pilots.


While I admit that the hardest jobs to move are pilots, you just cannot "go into another field with little training".
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:31 pm

It's kind of interesting that one high tech firm I worked for had the corporate practice of ranking all employees and putting them into categories. The one category you obviously did not want to be in was the bottom 15%. It more or less meant if business was soft or there was some other setback to the business, chances were high that you will be shown the door. Thus it kept people on their toes most of the time especially if they were near the bottom.

So, I wonder how Airbus is going to decide which people to let go?
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:58 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE


This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry


It's the people that want green investments, shouldn't the government do what the people want ?

Can you imagine the outrage if Total asked for billions euros ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:11 pm

To develop a green plane Airbus doesn't need random workers, they need engineers, scientists, students finishing their studies in the latest technologies... I would expect Airbus to hire people for that task, on top of moving engineers from other parts of the company.

Also, even the workers building the aircraft are skilled, often coming from a local aerospace school, the main places where they could find work are with Airbus' subcontractors, who won't be hiring either...

Revelation wrote:
It's kind of interesting that one high tech firm I worked for had the corporate practice of ranking all employees and putting them into categories. The one category you obviously did not want to be in was the bottom 15%. It more or less meant if business was soft or there was some other setback to the business, chances were high that you will be shown the door. Thus it kept people on their toes most of the time especially if they were near the bottom.

So, I wonder how Airbus is going to decide which people to let go?


In France they will bargain with the unions, under pressure from the government. They will offer early retirements, packages for those who leave voluntarily, then packages for those who will be fired.
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avgeekjohn
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JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:14 pm

JetBlue is finalizing a deal with its unions to not involuntarily lay off or furlough workers until 2021. That's a big move on their part. Thoughts on how well that'll go/if any airlines will follow suit?

source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/01/jet ... -may-2021/
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MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Perhaps a Mod can correct the title. The linked article doesn't say workers - it says pilots specifically.

It is unclear whether this agreement applies to, or will eventually be extended to, other employees at JetBlue.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Perhaps a Mod can correct the title. The linked article doesn't say workers - it says pilots specifically.

It is unclear whether this agreement applies to, or will eventually be extended to, other employees at JetBlue.


Correct. Title needs clarification. This is an agreement specifically extended to Flight Operations and was negotiated referencing the furlough mitigation section of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. As of today, pilots are the only workgroup at JetBlue with a fully ratified and enforceable union contract.

Fine print details of the deal to be released in a few weeks but so far, good news and a sign of relief.
 
wetpantsmcgee
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:56 pm

This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:02 pm

wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.
 
BlueBaller
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:14 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Truer words never spoken
Last edited by BlueBaller on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:14 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:28 pm

FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:31 pm

Interview with Guillaume Faury, CEO:
ARD: Given the number of job cuts, can you avoid forced redundancies / layoffs?

Faury: We have been working on this for months and continue to do so. Short-time working is a way of keeping employees in the company with the help of the states. So we don't have to fire them, we can let teams circulate. Many employees will work less, but everyone will stay with the company and - according to the plan - will return full-time when work starts to pick up again. Long-term short-time work could help us secure 1,500 jobs [in Germany and 2,000 jobs in France]. Investments create about 400 to 500 [additional jobs in Germany]. Nevertheless, some overstaffing remains. We will therefore try to find solutions with the social partners [unions, ...] as we have always managed to do.
...
ARD: Especially in Germany, many medium-sized suppliers with numerous employees depend heavily on Airbus. How can you avoid job cuts there and also secure production at Airbus in the event of bankruptcies?

Faury: An aircraft has around 500,000 parts from 3,200 producers. If one of them can no longer produce, part of the aircraft is missing. But you cannot deliver an almost finished aircraft. So if one, two or three producers fail, everyone else stops. That is why there is great solidarity in our industry. Everyone depends on the other. Therefore we are concerned and have prepared. With a task force that monitors suppliers and can intervene before bankruptcies occur - through reorganization, adjustment or takeovers. We don't drop the suppliers. We cannot allow ourselves that.

https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/ai ... y-103.html [German]

tldr: Airbus isn't keen on firing employees but might be forced to by the circumstances despite government support. They're also prepared to (financially) support their supply chain.
 
FGITD
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:01 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.
 
CRJ5000
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:36 pm

Congrats to Jetblue and ALPA for agreeing on this. Happy for all the pilots, and very interested to see the details of what was negotiated.
Hopefully other airlines can work something out, too.
 
Boof02671
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:41 pm

FGITD wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.

No flights less pilots needed and I don’t where you got your information but gate agents make $30 or more an hour at the majors. No where near $12
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:00 am

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:35 am

catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?


An Avis gift card...
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:39 am

jfklganyc wrote:
catiii wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Have you seen what the non-union JetBlue frontline workgroups got?


An Avis gift card...


That was part of the perks opt out. The poster is talking about needing a union to avoid furlough. And I’m asking if he knows of any of the non-union workgroups at JetBlue being furloughed...

(and I’m pretty confident I know the answer)
 
Italianflyer
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Pilots Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:40 am

C'mon people...let's get this back on the rails.

IMHO this is pretty shrewd of B6 & ALPA to prevent a skill deficit down the road. Legacies have older work forces and pretty significant numbers "aging out" over the next few years. The junior people furloughed in the fall should be back on the line relatively soon....1 or 2 years give or take.

Airlines like B6, NK, F9, etc can't afford to loose a significant number of pilots to career changes, corporate gigs, overseas flying or new start ups. The regional census of candidates is limited and green CFIs of today are at least a decade away from qualifying.
This may head off a talent pool shortage when things ramp up in 1,2 4 years .
 
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:57 am

FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

of course they're expendable. The difference between a pilot and a gate agent, even at the supervisor level, is literally worlds apart.

Pilots bank their lives on the career. Sure it's a risk, and that's why most of them seek unions so strongly. They are highly educated and skilled workforce.

The average airport agent is making $12 an hour to watch people use a kiosk, after what probably amounts to a week of training, most of which is security related.


Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9302
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:30 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


It's not the pilots' union, it's the skill set. Look at gate agent training vs. pilot training and experience requirements. Nobody wakes up today, decides he wants to become a pilot, and has the job with a major U.S. carrier ten days later.

Expendable is an unkind word but you can look at how quickly AA/DL/UA can replace mainline ops with regional ops, including gate agents, and not miss a beat.

It will be interesting to see the details of this. UA has guaranteed, what, 56 hours pay a month?
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2285
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.


The shortage was exacerbated by airlines going nuclear against each other on pilot pay. Frontier and Spirit are great examples, increasing pay 40% overnight creating huge inflows of pilots hired (and outflows elsewhere).

Smaller cargo carriers became lucrative with really nice contracts at Kalitta, ATI and Omni. In other words pilots now view these historical 'pit stop' jobs as a career worthy and will make lateral moves to make it happen.

In 2016 you had pilots leaving spirit to go to Alaska, in 2018 you had pilot leaving Alaska to go to Spirit. It was a weird couple of years.
 
catiii
Posts: 3839
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Yet those expendable gate agents making $12/hour are the ones that’ll either keep your customers coming back or they’ll run them off. Piss off the gate agents and your airline could be in for a world of hurt. JetBlue won’t have a choice to keep pilots or not if they have to file bankruptcy because those expendable gate agents run off all of the customers. Don’t be so short sighted.


I'm not being short sighted nor do I intend to critique them. I've worked many flights in pax service, I don't know JetBlue especially well, I'll admit. But Those agents are by and large good, hard-working people, and I don't mean to do wrong by them.

But as far as the economics of the situation go...they are still expendable. You just don't need that many of them. Go over to an international outstation and watch their subcontractors board a 772 with 3 agents, meanwhile a domestic carrier boards a 737 with 5. Most airlines are already fast on the path to making their jobs obsolete, even before this pandemic hit.

Above all else, in this situation you can't expect a pilots union to look out for anyone but their own.

While I think the union had some impact, from what I've seen, pilots are being handled more gently at all airlines. I speculate this is due to the pilot shortage just experienced, the wave of pilot retirements, and difficulty hiring skilled workers.


Lost in all this is the churn in training that a furlough (or a retirement) causes. At a carrier like DL with varied fleet types, one seat move causes around 8 other seat moves. Factor in training (at around a $2500/day cot) and it starts to add up.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5116
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:43 am

flipdewaf wrote:
boerje wrote:
From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:

The world of learning how to count starts at 0. Current decade is 2020-2029 inclusive.
Fred

Sorry Fred, the current decade is 2011 to 2020. The world, unfortunately does not start counting at zero but at 1. The current year numbering scheme start at 1 for the very good and simple reason was that the concept of zero was not invented until sometime in the 7th century which ran from 801 to 900 exactly because of this.
[/pedant mode]

Gemuser
 
alasizon
Posts: 2855
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:30 am

Gemuser wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
boerje wrote:
From the Reuters article: "About 37% of the 135,000-strong Airbus workforce is due to retire this decade, led by veterans of its best-selling A320."

As the year 2020 is the last year of this current decade, I think Reuters ment "in 10 years". :geek:

The world of learning how to count starts at 0. Current decade is 2020-2029 inclusive.
Fred

Sorry Fred, the current decade is 2011 to 2020. The world, unfortunately does not start counting at zero but at 1. The current year numbering scheme start at 1 for the very good and simple reason was that the concept of zero was not invented until sometime in the 7th century which ran from 801 to 900 exactly because of this.
[/pedant mode]

Gemuser


There is a reason why decades are referred to as the 1970s, 1980s and so on. 1980 was not part of the 1970s just as 2020 is not part of the 2010s so Reuters' original verbiage is correct. You may certainly choose to look at a decade as 2011-2020 or 2015-2025, those too are 10 year periods and nothing is wrong with that but in journalism and media, the decades are traditionally derived based on the digit in the 10s place.

Revelation wrote:
So, I wonder how Airbus is going to decide which people to let go?

Most non-unionized groups are based on a combination of performance and ability to impact the future. When you have two equal performers but one person is more of a visionary, it typically is the visionary that is kept as under a trimmed down workforce, new leaders will have to step forward to help develop the "new" Airbus.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:16 am

Aesma wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Reuters had an update 1 July. The state appears to be tying layoff numbers to the tech development subsidy.

Junior Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said the government estimated 2,000 of 5,000 planned cuts by Airbus in France could be saved by a reduced-work scheme and with help from state investment in next-generation green jets.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN2424RE


This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry


It's the people that want green investments, shouldn't the government do what the people want ?

Can you imagine the outrage if Total asked for billions euros ?


The people knows nothing about aerospace engineering and engineering in general.

That's the same people who pushed to close a nuclear power plant this week, to "protect the climate".
Caravelle lover
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2498
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:28 am

alasizon wrote:
Revelation wrote:
So, I wonder how Airbus is going to decide which people to let go?

Most non-unionized groups are based on a combination of performance and ability to impact the future. When you have two equal performers but one person is more of a visionary, it typically is the visionary that is kept as under a trimmed down workforce, new leaders will have to step forward to help develop the "new" Airbus.

AFAIK the majority of Airbus' European employees are unionized.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14076
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Reuters: Airbus 15K job cuts outlined 30 June 2020

Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:35 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
Aesma wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:

This government is too busy at trying to scavenge some Green votes to really understand the struggle of air transport industry


It's the people that want green investments, shouldn't the government do what the people want ?

Can you imagine the outrage if Total asked for billions euros ?


The people knows nothing about aerospace engineering and engineering in general.

That's the same people who pushed to close a nuclear power plant this week, to "protect the climate".


The Greens have a stupid obsession with nuclear energy, but do note they're not asking for this green plane, they want less (much much less) flying, closing airports etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
airbazar
Posts: 10317
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Re: JetBlue Agrees Not to Involuntarily Lay Off Workers Until May 2021

Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:13 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
wetpantsmcgee wrote:
This only applies to pilots.

Everyone else is expendable.

Pilots have a union and collective bargaining agreement. As much as this site hates unions, this is proof why having one in this business means a lot more than family and culture.


Please, spare me. In what world does it make good financial sense to keep pilots when airplanes aren't flying? The only reason the airline is even willing to do this and the union has some leverage, is because of PPP.

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