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reltney
Posts: 713
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:43 pm

It’s a two way streak. The younger pilots (Hired after bankruptcy) at Delta were against helping the older pilots who lost their retirement/pensions in achieving some type of defined benefit in this current contract negotiations. The younger pilots openly stated it was the older pilots fault and the younger pilots should not have to help. Turnabout is fair play as now the younger pilots who were against the retirement plans are now asking the older pilots to leave early so the same younger pilots won’t be furloughed..... guess what answer they got from many older pilots. Only thing to say is...we’ll see.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm

Mac289 wrote:
[...]the guy in the hat who has that one office in that one cubicle who nobody is really certain why he stares at cameras all day issuing letters for minor infractions that hurt literally no one-- all in an effort to seem needed...[...]


We found the guy who got a letter once! :D
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:39 pm

kiowa wrote:
reltney wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:15 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:

Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


^^^^^^^ this exactly ^^^^^^^

The lesson has been learned from years of "bargaining" at all the airlines. Every downturn they come running for concessions because "their model this" or "their model that." Every union has learned that you NEVER give permanent contractual concessions in the down times because the lower cost gets built into their models, and we have to use a lot of negotiating capital just to go back to what we had before. If their are any concessions, they are only for a finite amount of time and only for a specific, quantifiable, and measurable benefit to the group.

When things get better, do they come running to us to give us a raise and improved work rules? Absolutely not. Instead you get dividend payouts and stock buybacks. I don't see any of the airlines raising cash by issuing new shares? Maybe they should have put those billions of dollars in the bank. Anyway, you reap what you sow.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:55 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


^^^^^^^ this exactly ^^^^^^^

The lesson has been learned from years of "bargaining" at all the airlines. Every downturn they come running for concessions because "their model this" or "their model that." Every union has learned that you NEVER give permanent contractual concessions in the down times because the lower cost gets built into their models, and we have to use a lot of negotiating capital just to go back to what we had before. If their are any concessions, they are only for a finite amount of time and only for a specific, quantifiable, and measurable benefit to the group.

When things get better, do they come running to us to give us a raise and improved work rules? Absolutely not. Instead you get dividend payouts and stock buybacks. I don't see any of the airlines raising cash by issuing new shares? Maybe they should have put those billions of dollars in the bank. Anyway, you reap what you sow.

Look what happened at UA in 2003. 47% pay and benefit cuts to avoid furloughs and then furloughs happened. I can guarantee you, anyone who was around then, which a lot were, will not take a single concession in this time. Too much has been lost that never came back, even what was once promised to comeback.
 
san88
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:09 am

I’ve been on voluntary leave since May. I will also take the additional 18 month leave offered. I’m blessed to do my personal part. 10+ plus years with WN. I think WN is in the strongest position to survive. I’m very hopeful we will be okay. pay cuts and concessions won’t pass with the majority of the FA membership. Tools such as long / short and monthly leaves as well as schedule sharing needs to be exhausted before furloughs. There’s a last minute rush to take the early retirement and bid leaves as the deadline is tonight.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4635
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:26 am

Alright. Let's just take a deep breath for a moment. Will loads triple by December? Probably not. But!! The future is something we are all banking on. With the possibility of a vaccine coming, things will eventually turn better. The cheeks in the seats will return. If there are furloughs, I am hoping they are short.

So, my suggestion to everyone. If you are working now, it is vital to save starting right now. Take as much as you can and stuff it away. Best case scenario would be having your job still, things get better, and you have a nice little chunk of change saved.

I learned many years ago that the airline industry is really a temporary job. For the younger folks, it rings true to this day. We do know this virus will eventually pass, and we will likely find a fix for it! So. Let's hope by December, we will know or see the light at the end of the tunnel. My heart hurts for all of you that are scrambling and scared. I have been there too many times to count. Just know, you will do what you need to do make ends meet. Southwest will be able to weather this.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:50 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.


It's a similar story in the UK. Union Reps tend to look after their own rank/area interests and to hell with everyone else. That's how they split cabin crew at BA to a point where the company can drive through pretty much any changes they like. Seeing the bigger picture is not one of their strengths.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3898
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:01 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
reltney wrote:

Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.



Be serious. Everyone has bills to pay. But we all can cut out some unneeded things for a short time and take a cut to make sure others can pay their bills too. If you can'y your part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. And part of the reason for what happened in FLL with Spirit. Because a flight was delayed. Guess me me me is more important than us. I cut back on waste late last year. Concentraited on things that need to be covered. I can now cover my bills for at least a year if I loose my job. Have not really missed much.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:21 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
kiowa wrote:

If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.



Be serious. Everyone has bills to pay. But we all can cut out some unneeded things for a short time and take a cut to make sure others can pay their bills too. If you can'y your part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. And part of the reason for what happened in FLL with Spirit. Because a flight was delayed. Guess me me me is more important than us. I cut back on waste late last year. Concentraited on things that need to be covered. I can now cover my bills for at least a year if I loose my job. Have not really missed much.


I’m not part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. I’m a nurse and I’d love for the country to go in to a required lockdown for 21 days and then slowly reopen. But I’m also realistic and know that the airline industry is based on seniority. Everything about it is based on seniority. Once you give any sort of concessions, you are working three time harder to get back those concessions that you gave... but those dividends, et al., will be flying out of the corporate bank account long before any of those “cost saving” measures are returned to the employees. Even at WN, for years, it was preached that once ROIC reached 15%, there would be an explosion of growth. It was in the 20-30% range for years with very little growth. Until there are concessions from the C-suite and across the board of the non-unionized workforce working out of the palace in Dallas, you will not see ANY union agree to any sort of concessions from their groups.
 
san88
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:03 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
you will not see ANY union agree to any sort of concessions from their groups.


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.
 
kiowa
Posts: 898
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:36 pm

san88 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.



I do not completely agree that lowering the hours that someone works is a concession. If a Southwest pilot/FA picks up all the flying they can to max out their own paycheck, less flight crew would be needed and more people would be out of work. I would suggest that the unions work to lower the flight hours and discourage working as much as you can at the expense of others.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:52 pm

kiowa wrote:
san88 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.



I do not completely agree that lowering the hours that someone works is a concession. If a Southwest pilot/FA picks up all the flying they can to max out their own paycheck, less flight crew would be needed and more people would be out of work. I would suggest that the unions work to lower the flight hours and discourage working as much as you can at the expense of others.

Lowering min guarantee is possible, but discouraging picking up extra flying is a status quo violation and falls foul of the RLA. Groups can absolutely not tell employees to pick up less. Good way to get a cease and desist from Mr or Ms Judge.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 191
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:55 pm

33% of Flight Attendants signed up for either the voluntary separation program or the extended leave program that was offered.
 
737max8
Posts: 730
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:20 pm

I am optimistic with the number of folks signing up for voluntary separation and extended leave, WN can avoid furloughs and layoffs. While the rebound in traffic platued due to the recent spikes, I am hopeful in the months coming it continues to rebound and WN is in the best network and financial position of any US airline.
 
BillShiphr
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:49 pm

 
avgeekjohn
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 2:24 pm

Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:32 pm

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:46 pm

Maybe they see a quick recovery and don’t need layoffs to make it through to better times.
 
departedflights
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:46 pm

An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:27 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?


WN has prospered from the commitment of it's team members. They require it? and they get it! If they were to start laying them off at the first sign of trouble?
Then that same Commitment might be lost TO them in the future. of all the Major carriers? I would think Southwest would the VERY last to just hand out furlough notices willy-nilly. That's a proud carrier with proud people. and? they like it that way!. And? I didn't work for them! I worked for one of their Major competitors. But I root for anybody who tries to do it Right! And I once met Herb and his wife on a flight to Hawaii, On United! The old dude was cool and somebody I could easily have worked for.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:37 pm

departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.
 
departedflights
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:46 pm

smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:06 pm

departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:22 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?

If they wanted a new CARES bill they certainly wouldn’t announced that they ARENT laying people off.

There are a lot of good indicators that 2021 will be on the positive side.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:24 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period

Is would probably be super expensive for an airline to furlough in October and ramp up pilot training for summer 21.

For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3076
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 pm

32andBelow wrote:
For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.


Over 90% of WN's station employees are FT - very few PTers and they are all being scheduled for their 40 hours still. In fact, many areas of WN are already running very lean and will plan to get even leaner as more people are given the early out and extended time off.

Not to mention, WN is being very aggressive adding additional capacity at every turn.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6391
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:51 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:

No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:07 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:20 pm

32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:56 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect


I think people are overanalyzing this stuff. Travel is down simply because there’s very few reasons to travel right now. Quarantines, lockdowns, partially opened businesses and amenities, no conventions, no sports, very limited tourist destinations/experiences etc etc etc are all keeping people away. People want to travel but they are waiting until things get back to normal to get the most out of their money and efforts. If you travel anywhere right now, especially for leisure, you will not be getting the full experience. Why bother?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6391
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:11 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Quite literally nothing will be as bad as what we saw in April, we had days with 3% yoy of last years travel.

We have already seen traditional demand patterns in action, July 4th and Memorial Day were both large week over week increases.

Some colleges are going online, but far from all: 50% are in person, 34% hybrid, and the rest are either online or undecided.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/heres ... all_signup

Silver1SWA wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect


I think people are overanalyzing this stuff. Travel is down simply because there’s very few reasons to travel right now. Quarantines, lockdowns, partially opened businesses and amenities, no conventions, no sports, very limited tourist destinations/experiences etc etc etc are all keeping people away. People want to travel but they are waiting until things get back to normal to get the most out of their money and efforts. If you travel anywhere right now, especially for leisure, you will not be getting the full experience. Why bother?


Yep agreed,
 
hondah35
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:55 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:51 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Traveling to see grandma may be out the window this holiday season if you have to mask up your whole family for a 5 hour flight and then mask up everywhere you go when you get there. And even if things seem to be clearing up, if there is still fear of another "wave" it will take a long time to get back to normal.
 
reltney
Posts: 713
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:22 am

Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5727
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:46 am

hondah35 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Traveling to see grandma may be out the window this holiday season if you have to mask up your whole family for a 5 hour flight and then mask up everywhere you go when you get there. And even if things seem to be clearing up, if there is still fear of another "wave" it will take a long time to get back to normal.

Vaccine will be out
 
TARTRESED
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:21 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:50 am

Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:30 am

reltney wrote:
Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers


Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen. Now take the multiple public statements that they need to see demand recover substantially by year end and one can assume furloughs and/or cuts early next year could be a possibility but they haven’t said anything or hinted that they plan to on or near January 1.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15887
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
WN has prospered from the commitment of it's team members. They require it? and they get it! If they were to start laying them off at the first sign of trouble?


The single most destructive event in the history of the airline industry is "the first sign of trouble"?

REALLY?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
reltney
Posts: 713
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:12 am

Silver1SWA wrote:
reltney wrote:
Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers


Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen. Now take the multiple public statements that they need to see demand recover substantially by year end and one can assume furloughs and/or cuts early next year could be a possibility but they haven’t said anything or hinted that they plan to on or near January 1.


Exactly ...I did not go back and review the quote but glad you did... next year starts on 1Jan so it was just a mark of the new year. Semantics . I hope no airline furloughs....

Cheers!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 10174
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:19 pm

TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Not sure that's right.

My view is Southwest's late May schedule was them putting the rest of the industry on notice that in Southwest's view, the brunt of any industry Nov/Dec cuts would have to be taken by other carriers. And Southwest is financially strong enough to make that stick.

It may be that Southwest's schedule in Nov/Dec is less than they originally (as of late May) intended it to be. But I'm pretty sure that if it is, every other carrier will have cuts even deeper than Southwest.

They've also now said that they'll not furlough anyone thru the end of the year. That's not an open-ended commitment, but it's notably a deeper commitment than any other carrier is making. Even if furloughs are necessary in the 2021, its employees will remember that Southwest stood by them for longer than any other carrier.

Lastly, Southwest is making this commitment at a very interesting time - other carriers are trying to get the govt to throw more money at the industry. That Southwest is saying it won't be furloughing anyone through the end of the year is, I suspect, going to make it *less* likely that the govt does throw more money at the industry. If that in fact is what happens, it further advantages those with the best balance sheets - in particular Southwest.

To me it seems that Southwest wants to get to the phase of the crisis where those who have husbanded their resources are advantaged and those who have not, suffer accordingly.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10410
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:42 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?

CARES2 is in the works. Airlines are optimistic about it. Personally, I have doubts as I don't see how they keep bailing out this one industry...Plus, every time the airlines say it is going to take years to get back to old travel levels they make the case that short-term bailouts make no sense.
exFWAOONW wrote:
Maybe they see a quick recovery and don’t need layoffs to make it through to better times.

No. I wish. Fall is going to be like May.
smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.

I think that's it. I'm not sure its "bullish" as much as they think they will loss-lead into being a bigger market share player post-COVID.
joeblow10 wrote:
Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period

I think September will be rock bottom unless there is a Fall spike and stay at home orders resume. If that happens you better buy gold.
Midwestindy wrote:
Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.

Yup. We are super-lucky that the rushed through CARES package included September.
32andBelow wrote:
Is would probably be super expensive for an airline to furlough in October and ramp up pilot training for summer 21.

For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.

I don't see pilots get force laid off except maybe at regionals. The same cannot be said for all the other employee types.
joeblow10 wrote:
Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

IMHO any vaccine will be incremental improvements. Fauci said 70% effectiveness is "best case" which means likely effectiveness is sub-50%. Is that enough to cause a night and day change in travel? I doubt it.
joeblow10 wrote:
Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Schools are still a question mark. I agree that the idea of spending time with your older relatives at the Holidays is probably going to get blitzed by the media as wreckless and dangerous. I think the Holidays are wasteland. OTOH, things may change markedly after the election as the pressure to make political points through fear-mongering should abate no matter who wins. The world is so much worse off that this thing occurred in a U.S. election year.
32andBelow wrote:
Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Hawaii seceded. I don't see Hawaii liberalizing any time soon. Disney is a question mark. I haven't seen their numbers since reopening.
Midwestindy wrote:
Quite literally nothing will be as bad as what we saw in April, we had days with 3% yoy of last years travel.

I think consensus is that September will be around 25% of prior year among the Wall Street analysts. We peaked at around 45% in June.
Silver1SWA wrote:
Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen.

I don't see how airport workers don't get a furlough. Sad to say...
 
Lootess
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Sometimes I think Southwest prides themselves almost too much on past history and don't always make rational PR or decisions as a result. Sure, some of it is their business model, since you really can't cut too much with point-to-point routes. Planes have to get to designation A to get to destination F at the end of the day. Some of it is trying to bleed little as possible but figuring out a way to come out of this more competitive over the competition.

Remember AA liked to brag they made more revenue per passenger over other competitors, and didn't have to go into bankruptcy. Roll around to 2014, they ended up in Chapter 11.
 
sadde
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:46 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:24 pm

Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Sometimes I think Southwest prides themselves almost too much on past history and don't always make rational PR or decisions as a result. Sure, some of it is their business model, since you really can't cut too much with point-to-point routes. Planes have to get to designation A to get to destination F at the end of the day. Some of it is trying to bleed little as possible but figuring out a way to come out of this more competitive over the competition.

Remember AA liked to brag they made more revenue per passenger over other competitors, and didn't have to go into bankruptcy. Roll around to 2014, they ended up in Chapter 11.

Any other examples of this? I’ll never understand the WN hate here. In fact, HBS uses WN as a shining example all the time. What was so foolish about claiming to fly a full schedule? Like, where’s the harm? They have no obligation to follow through and can adjust capacity accordingly.

Just anecdotally speaking, I’ve flown on UA, G4, AA, AS and WN since May. WN was light years ahead in terms of experience and their overall handling of new restrictions. G4 and AA were downright stressful. Given the choice I’d hands down fly WN again if I could.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:35 pm

Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3739
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:48 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.


I think that's a good distinction to make. The reason they don't have to "furlough" as they claim is because enough employees took a VSEP plan. Still shrank, but by employee's own free will and not the company having to do it themselves. PR "spin" by any other name...
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:50 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.


I'm one who thinks that Southwest is no longer all that. It's no longer the company it was 20 years ago.

That said, there is a heck of a difference between being furloughed, which is involuntary, and taking a voluntary leave or separation. The latter is something someone chooses to do. The former is something that's forced on you. That distinction is fundamental and profound.

Southwest's folks chose to take leaves or separate. They chose to do it in large numbers. That speaks to the generosity of Southwest and/or the willingness of its employees to sacrifice for their company, presumably because of the depth of feeling Southwest employees have for their company.

Either way, it's huge. Give them their due - the manner of how Southwest accomplishes employee reductions matters a great deal.
 
departedflights
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:36 pm

I have to respectfully disagree with the folks on here who are stating that being furloughed and taking a voluntary leave or separation package is the same thing.

As someone who has personally experienced both, I assure you that they do not begin to compare.

Being required to give up your company ID, losing all of your benefits and not knowing when, or even if, you are going to be called back to work is a drastically different than taking a voluntary leave with full benefits and partial pay.

Furthermore, I can also tell you from experience that the morale at a company is damaged, sometimes irreversibly, by involuntary furloughs.

You may not like a particular company, but you shouldn't diminish it's attempts to do the right thing by its workers by calling those efforts something they are not.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:50 pm

departedflights wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with the folks on here who are stating that being furloughed and taking a voluntary leave or separation package is the same thing.

As someone who has personally experienced both, I assure you that they do not begin to compare.

Being required to give up your company ID, losing all of your benefits and not knowing when, or even if, you are going to be called back to work is a drastically different than taking a voluntary leave with full benefits and partial pay.

Furthermore, I can also tell you from experience that the morale at a company is damaged, sometimes irreversibly, by involuntary furloughs.

You may not like a particular company, but you shouldn't diminish it's attempts to do the right thing by its workers by calling those efforts something they are not.


Yes, there is distinction from an employee perspective, but at its core, it’s all the same - all airlines (including Southwest) are forced to reduce their workforce.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4635
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:51 pm

This is awesome news! I pray and hope things turn around. I gotta say, it's been depressing seeing how many airline workers are getting laid off. This will pass eventually. Looking forward to seeing things return back to health.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos