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panamair
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:32 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:

Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


I don’t believe anyone was forced to switch departments; all these measures and options were voluntary.
 
maverick4002
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:35 pm

N312RC wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


Or, you could have no job. In a pandemic as serious as 1918.

Keep your health insurance. Keep some income coming in the door.

I think most Americans would rather have a job right now guaranteeing some basic income. The US doesn’t have a generous social safety net like the rest of the world.

I’m sure the employees who can’t handle a 25 percent pay cut tied to 25 percent less working hours can make up that pay cut by getting a job somewhere else on their many days off, or tighten their belt. Sorry you blew all your money living above your means, these are extreme times.

It never ceases to amaze me how the people on airliners.net profess to love aviation... but hate everything to do with aviation.


I agree with everything you were saying but then you had to ruin with that comment about people living above their means. I hope you are keeping that same energy as regards Delta and all these other corporations not living within their means as well.
 
AA94
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:37 pm

N312RC wrote:
I’m sure the employees who can’t handle a 25 percent pay cut tied to 25 percent less working hours can make up that pay cut by getting a job somewhere else on their many days off, or tighten their belt. Sorry you blew all your money living above your means, these are extreme times.


Yikes. Taking a 25% pay cut is substantial, especially if you live in a city with a high cost of living and/or are early in your career with less of a nest egg. I understand the company's rationale, but the idea that anyone who *isn't* able to shoulder that substantial a cut must be living above their means is absurd.
 
panamair
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:42 pm

kiowa wrote:
Interesting commitment. All commitments disappear in a bankruptcy though.


Never say never in the airline business, but with yesterday’s announcement of another $6.5B of financing (backed by SkyMiles), Delta should have just under $20B of liquidity by the end of Q3; they would be hard pressed to convince anyone they need to be in bankruptcy court with that cash balance.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:44 pm

For those that might not know, that 25% cut has been in effect for months now.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:46 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


And no unemployment claims get filed by employees who quit.


You don't seem to be familiar with the phrase 'constructive discharge.' Significant pay cuts or changes in duties can mean such termination and qualification for UI benefits.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:49 pm

kiowa wrote:
Interesting commitment. All commitments disappear in a bankruptcy though.


Lots of things disappear in Chapter 11 - that's the point. Ch 11 does not give the firm power to change labor agreements (for those work groups that have them) - that is left to the judge.
 
jayunited
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
codc10 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

The CARES Act only mentions wages, not hours worked. Delta kept everyone's base rates at 100%, and just cut their hours. It's semantics/parsing the language, but...


And United was roundly blasted for doing the same thing to its (unionized) workforce, which it walked back.

The difference between discussing options and just implimenting. Delta also has a history of keeping promises that UA doesn't.

The costs must be cut, there are only a few options...

Lightsaber


UA does have a history of breaking promises, however the reality is no airline has faced a crisis of this magnitude. The difference between discussing options and implementing them is huge. If push comes to shove and things take a turn in the wrong direction I do wonder what does Delta value more, keeping a promise or the survival of the airline? Seeing how quickly Delta moved to reduced all nonunion employees hours including their FA's, that action lets me know Delta management will not hesitate to do whatever they deem necessary to keep the airline moving in the right direction.

It is great news there will be no involuntary furloughs at Delta, but people have to understand this is by no means over. There is nothing after October 1st stopping Delta management from making further changes either to their nonunion employees hourly pay (actually reducing hourly pay), further reduction in hours, reduction in benefits, among other things.

Having been in the union for 18 years, and now in management at UA I see both the benefits and the pitfalls of both sides.
 
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klm617
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:33 pm

panamair wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


I don’t believe anyone was forced to switch departments; all these measures and options were voluntary.


Yeah voluntary switch or we don't have a position for you at the moment.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
codc10
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:42 pm

What created all of these vacancies (catering, res, etc.) where these FAs are being temporarily assigned? Retirements and early-outs?
 
williaminsd
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:54 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


Exactly.


We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:40 pm

This is great news! Love to see junior people being saved. It is gross how junior people seem to have to sacrifice themselves for others just because they worked at the airline longer. Good job Delta putting people first!! Really impressed.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:18 pm

codc10 wrote:
What created all of these vacancies (catering, res, etc.) where these FAs are being temporarily assigned? Retirements and early-outs?

A little bit of everything, really. Increased workload in Res (plus early outs), insourcing some work, etc.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
kiowa
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:46 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Interesting commitment. All commitments disappear in a bankruptcy though.


Lots of things disappear in Chapter 11 - that's the point. Ch 11 does not give the firm power to change labor agreements (for those work groups that have them) - that is left to the judge.


True, that was my point. A verbal commitment doesn’t mean much in bankruptcy when the judge controls everything. I hope several airlines don’t go through bankruptcy, but it is always a possibility. As someone above said, never say never.
 
jayunited
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 am

williaminsd wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


Exactly.


We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.


Has Delta said what the FA's assigned to the kitchen will be doing? Will they be taking over food preparation replacing the cooks, will they handle food packaging and plating, or stocking the galley carts? I know in some states as long as you are on airport property you don't need a CDL so could FA's drive the catering trucks to the aircraft and provision the aircraft? Or will they be assigned cleaning duties? I have to admit it is and intriguing solution to place flight attendants in the flight kitchens to avoid layoffs.

Secondly there are not several articles that have been given insight into how Delta was able to avoid FA's furloughs and now several of those articles are now stating Delta FA's will begin working one month on and on month off. During the month an FA is off are they being paid? Also does seniority determine which FA's are awarded an actual flight line which has them flying for a month and/or which FA's are stuck on kitchen duty for the month?
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:08 am

Flying 1 on/1 off is a separate program from going to catering/Res/etc. I’m not sure what specifically those that are going to the Flight Kitchens will be doing.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
williaminsd
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:20 am

jayunited wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

Exactly.


We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.


Has Delta said what the FA's assigned to the kitchen will be doing? Will they be taking over food preparation replacing the cooks, will they handle food packaging and plating, or stocking the galley carts? I know in some states as long as you are on airport property you don't need a CDL so could FA's drive the catering trucks to the aircraft and provision the aircraft? Or will they be assigned cleaning duties? I have to admit it is and intriguing solution to place flight attendants in the flight kitchens to avoid layoffs.

Secondly there are not several articles that have been given insight into how Delta was able to avoid FA's furloughs and now several of those articles are now stating Delta FA's will begin working one month on and on month off. During the month an FA is off are they being paid? Also does seniority determine which FA's are awarded an actual flight line which has them flying for a month and/or which FA's are stuck on kitchen duty for the month?


Couldn't tell ya, but they will be getting paid in a time when millions aren't...
 
Judge1310
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:24 am

williaminsd wrote:
jayunited wrote:
williaminsd wrote:

We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.


Has Delta said what the FA's assigned to the kitchen will be doing? Will they be taking over food preparation replacing the cooks, will they handle food packaging and plating, or stocking the galley carts? I know in some states as long as you are on airport property you don't need a CDL so could FA's drive the catering trucks to the aircraft and provision the aircraft? Or will they be assigned cleaning duties? I have to admit it is and intriguing solution to place flight attendants in the flight kitchens to avoid layoffs.

Secondly there are not several articles that have been given insight into how Delta was able to avoid FA's furloughs and now several of those articles are now stating Delta FA's will begin working one month on and on month off. During the month an FA is off are they being paid? Also does seniority determine which FA's are awarded an actual flight line which has them flying for a month and/or which FA's are stuck on kitchen duty for the month?


Couldn't tell ya, but they will be getting paid in a time when millions aren't...


But the ones who would have been furloughed aren't the senior ones making decent salaries. The ones that would have been furloughed would be the ones making from below-poverty line wages (at the US level) to barely middle class. Unless some other external options exist for these individuals, potentially working in the kitchens or with provisioning/catering whilst donning smocks, gloves, and hairnets for $21k/yr does not come close to flying around the network and then laying over in 4-5 star hotels (in most cases). This sounds exactly like a case of "We can say we're not furloughing anyone as we're offering job displacements -- if the employee doesn't it take it then it isn't our fault. Sorry, not sorry."
 
dalmit
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:21 am

Does Delta do their own catering? Or meal preparations? I thought it was always contracted out. I found this article about ATL Catering. https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/new ... rport.html so I'm not sure if you people are talking about other airports or if you're talking about stocking the meals on the planes. But I also thought the stocking was contracted out.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:18 am

LCDFlight wrote:
[

It is a solid thing for DL to do, to the extent that they can with their capital structure. Good community citizenship.

The pilots have a different bargain. They know the rewards are great in good times, and in bad times, they will be expected to bear a significant share of the burden to keep the company going.


The pilots could work for free and it would not impact the airline's ability to operate going forward... 26 million a day loss is not going to be mitigated by pilot wage cuts. It's always amazing to me that people,(including pilots), think they are going to save an airline with their pay cuts.
 
NW
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:19 am

NWAESC wrote:
https://www.startribune.com/delta-won-t-furlough-flight-attendants-ground-workers/572417442/

From the article:

"More than 40,000 employees from across work groups took voluntarily, unpaid leaves of absence over the past several months and about 17,000 employees — or about 20% of its workforce — took the company's early retirement offer. Ground-based employees have had their work hours reduced by 25% as air travel continues to be significantly depressed."

Notably excepted from this announcement is DL's pilot corps, who still face a layoff of ~2000 pilots after 10/1...


Ground employees, only frontline ground employees for now. More than likely there will be merit furloughs outside of frontline. And I believe, last I heard, the pilot furloughs were down to about 1,700, but that's changing every day.
 
DLFA
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:13 am

I can give some insight as to what FAs transitioned into catering are doing (it’s in effect for a few months now).

Basically they are assembling bags with a bottle of Dasani, two snacks, purell and napkins. And then they bring it to the AC.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:09 am

Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:58 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.


I don't know how apparent it was that all non-contract employees would still be employed-and we still don't know about possible displacements-but your points about labor PR/strategy are dead on.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
cvsirls
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am

jayunited wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

Exactly.


We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.


Has Delta said what the FA's assigned to the kitchen will be doing? Will they be taking over food preparation replacing the cooks, will they handle food packaging and plating, or stocking the galley carts? I know in some states as long as you are on airport property you don't need a CDL so could FA's drive the catering trucks to the aircraft and provision the aircraft? Or will they be assigned cleaning duties? I have to admit it is and intriguing solution to place flight attendants in the flight kitchens to avoid layoffs.

Secondly there are not several articles that have been given insight into how Delta was able to avoid FA's furloughs and now several of those articles are now stating Delta FA's will begin working one month on and on month off. During the month an FA is off are they being paid? Also does seniority determine which FA's are awarded an actual flight line which has them flying for a month and/or which FA's are stuck on kitchen duty for the month?


Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 am

cvsirls wrote:
They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.


Were these on a "regular" bid, or as Special Assignment via eBid? Any idea on how senior/junior they went?

Same questions for anyone that went to ACS.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jayunited
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:17 pm

cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


So you are saying a senior FA's with lets say 25 years as a FA could opt out of the one month on, one month off without pay and it would have no impact on lower seniority FA's?

Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?

I'm not coming down on DL, having a job beats not having a job. Its just in other threads people made it seem like the system at DL is fair and that junior FA's at Delta would get a fair shake while their union counterparts are being screwed. If what you are saying is true and people can opt out of the one month off where does that leave the most junior FA's if lets say 50% of senior FA's have a change of heart and decide I can't afford to work one month on and one month off?

I understand junior FA's still have a job with benefits which beats no job. But what will their take home pay look like if FA's senior to them decided to opt out of the one month off? If we are talking about fairness then every DL FA's regardless of seniority should have the same opportunity and should be treated equal meaning there should be no option to opt out of the one month off because opting out creates a trickle down effect. Every DL FA should be required to work one month on, then take the next month off regardless of seniority so that all remaining junior FA's have the same opportunity to actually work.

If what you are saying is correct some of DL's junior FA's might be taking home much smaller paychecks than they are now (under the CARES Act) if senior FA's later this year or early next year begin to opt out of the one month off.
 
cvsirls
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:41 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


So you are saying a senior FA's with lets say 25 years as a FA could opt out of the one month on, one month off without pay and it would have no impact on lower seniority FA's?

Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?

I'm not coming down on DL, having a job beats not having a job. Its just in other threads people made it seem like the system at DL is fair and that junior FA's at Delta would get a fair shake while their union counterparts are being screwed. If what you are saying is true and people can opt out of the one month off where does that leave the most junior FA's if lets say 50% of senior FA's have a change of heart and decide I can't afford to work one month on and one month off?

I understand junior FA's still have a job with benefits which beats no job. But what will their take home pay look like if FA's senior to them decided to opt out of the one month off? If we are talking about fairness then every DL FA's regardless of seniority should have the same opportunity and should be treated equal meaning there should be no option to opt out of the one month off because opting out creates a trickle down effect. Every DL FA should be required to work one month on, then take the next month off regardless of seniority so that all remaining junior FA's have the same opportunity to actually work.

If what you are saying is correct some of DL's junior FA's might be taking home much smaller paychecks than they are now (under the CARES Act) if senior FA's later this year or early next year begin to opt out of the one month off.


Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.
 
cvsirls
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:49 pm

NWAESC wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.


Were these on a "regular" bid, or as Special Assignment via eBid? Any idea on how senior/junior they went?

Same questions for anyone that went to ACS.


Because there was a flight attendant overage, and some other departments were understaffed due to the retirement package and bringing jobs in house, they were able to offer these departmental switches to flight attendants only. I'm not sure on the structure, or how the seniority works when switching, but it was offered as a special assignment FA role or TDY. I don't think it was on Ebid, I remember there being a link sent to all FAs that allowed them to apply for a position or a schedule change, if they chose to do that.
 
ual4life
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:10 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 pm

N312RC wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


Or, you could have no job. In a pandemic as serious as 1918.

Keep your health insurance. Keep some income coming in the door.

I think most Americans would rather have a job right now guaranteeing some basic income. The US doesn’t have a generous social safety net like the rest of the world.

I’m sure the employees who can’t handle a 25 percent pay cut tied to 25 percent less working hours can make up that pay cut by getting a job somewhere else on their many days off, or tighten their belt. Sorry you blew all your money living above your means, these are extreme times.

It never ceases to amaze me how the people on airliners.net profess to love aviation... but hate everything to do with aviation.


Well said! I’d rather have a job.
NNVII
 
cvsirls
Posts: 11
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?


Just doing a quick look at schedules this year, the average schedule value systemwide for each month since the start of this pandemic has been about 77.5hrs. There was a fear that schedules values would drop significantly, but due to voluntary leaves and retirements, the values have been holding steady close to 75hrs. The lowest it dropped was about 72 in April. and then it was 80 in August.
 
global1
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:05 pm

All options presented to flight attendants were clearly spelled out and awarded in seniority order.

As a schedule holder you can bid to for up to 97 hours ( this number can vary +\- 5 hours or so) if you wish to fly high. You also have the ability to pick up more time or drop time via the swap board or open time.

Jobs were saved by offering a generous early out/retirement package and putting together an array of creative options (including Temporary Duty Assignments to other divisions. Something I doubt is feasible at either UA or AA)

Bottom line is that, thank God, all Delta flight attendants and ground staff will have jobs, steady incomes, and benefits, post October 1st. We won’t be on pins and needles praying that this dysfunctional administration is able put forth a Cares package that covers airline workers by the end of the month.

I pray they can. I would hate to see a single colleague from any carrier in that situation. That said, you have to give Delta credit where credit is due. They have worked hard, bent over backwards, and looked under every rock to make this happen. I am proud and thankful to be a part of this organization.

PS: If ongoing talks with ALPA are fruitful and Cares2 happens, perhaps pilot redundancies can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether as well.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1612
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:35 pm

cvsirls wrote:
don't think it was on Ebid, I remember there being a link sent to all FAs that allowed them to apply for a position or a schedule change, if they chose to do that.


Copy that & hanks. I don't remember seeing any of them on there either.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NW
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:37 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:38 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


There are exceptions to the WARN Act. I didn't receive 60 days notice the last time if was furloughed because there were less than 50 furloughed in my location. I don't see furloughs though for any frontline staff, at least not job wise.

I've been thinking the same with regards to your PR stunt comment, many pilots I talk to have said the same.
 
airtechy
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:48 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:20 pm

To be fair, Delta offloaded a huge number of staff when they sold DGS to Argenbright. All of those layoffs don't count as "Delta".
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:21 pm

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?

See below...
Delta got lucky and offloaded thousands of employees to Argenbright before all of this began.
 
airtechy
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:05 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
To be fair, Delta offloaded a huge number of staff when they sold DGS to Argenbright. All of those layoffs don't count as "Delta".

Fair to who? If Argenbright immediately furloughed/laid off all these people and Delta knew that was going to happen, I would say that was pretty bad optics. Somehow, I can't see that being the case, and it certainly wasn't if the sale occurred prior to all the CV mess happening. I don't know that I would use the work 'lucky' as management saying they dodged a bigger bullet, but I guess it does apply.

The person that sleeps on the other side of the bed from me took the retirement package and thought it was very generous so I have a 'minor' interest in all this. I still think that given all the 'present conditions' that Delta's facing they did an outstanding job with all the employee options. If they get some good PR out of it, so much the better.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:38 am

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:30 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "

That is so Ford & Harrison.
 
jfern022
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:45 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.
 
global1
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:21 pm

"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3025
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:56 pm

cvsirls wrote:
Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.



Wow that is interesting thank you for the response.

Things are very much different over at Delta. United FA's bid for a line every month, I thought it was the same at Delta and perhaps it was pre-COVID. But now Delta FA's will have their schedule through either spring 2021 or summer 2021 that is huge.

You are saying they can not change their mind even if lets say their husband/wife/partner looses their job and a two household income becomes a one household income, a Delta FA's is locked into their bid for the duration of the commitment. If that particular FA needs extra hours to make ends meet they would then have to try and pick up trips or kitchen work another FA's is giving up, they can not bump an FA junior to them off their line by opting out of the one month one one month off commitment.

Now it is starting to make sense, again there is an internal conflict within me union vs. nonunion I see the pros and cons of both. However DL's way of dealing with this issue is interesting and unconventional but looking at how you have describe it, it looks like it works when it comes to keeping people employed.

One last question what was the minimum monthly guarantee hours prior to COVID for all Delta FA's?
 
StinkyPinky
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:39 pm

global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


Thats what Delta management was suggesting its employees could better spend their money on rather than on union dues. Instead of paying dues and getting a fair contract, Delta suggested that was money they could use for game consoles, manicures, and Netflix. That was used as part of their anti-union campaign.
 
trueblew
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm

global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image
 
panamair
Posts: 4347
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:28 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.



Wow that is interesting thank you for the response.

Things are very much different over at Delta. United FA's bid for a line every month, I thought it was the same at Delta and perhaps it was pre-COVID. But now Delta FA's will have their schedule through either spring 2021 or summer 2021 that is huge.

You are saying they can not change their mind even if lets say their husband/wife/partner looses their job and a two household income becomes a one household income, a Delta FA's is locked into their bid for the duration of the commitment. If that particular FA needs extra hours to make ends meet they would then have to try and pick up trips or kitchen work another FA's is giving up, they can not bump an FA junior to them off their line by opting out of the one month one one month off commitment.


I am not sure why you think it's that different from other airlines. All of these are special time-boxed programs (voluntary leaves of absence, one month on/off, temporary transfer to another department) that are not available during 'normal' times. Airlines like UA and AA have the first one (short and long-term leaves of absence) but not the others. If an FA chooses to sign up for one of these programs, they are committing to the program for the specified period of time. The same goes for UA and AA FAs - if they chose a six month leave of absence, they are gone for six months, they cannot just decide to come back to work one month during this six-month period just because their spouse loses his or her job. Delta FAs who do not choose any of these types of programs will continue 'as-is' in that they will bid for their trips every month, get a line and potential "A-days" etc.
Last edited by panamair on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
global1
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm

My point was that payrolls preserved at Delta will be used to provide for families.

Comment on toxic culture stands. I lived one at Northwest. The difference is night to day.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15336
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:34 pm

DL's management is likely trying to hedge their bets that upon significant distribution of the very awaited Covid-19 vaccine by late Q2 they can return much of their domestic USA and by late Q3 significant international service they will not lose the trained staff they need to speed up recovery for the airline and gain customers.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:39 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I didn't notice if the article mentioned how many flight attendants were being displaced to catering and reservations positions. .


Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


I once had a boss tell me if I didn't like it, go pound salt. If you don't like it, find something you do.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:14 pm

global1 wrote:
My point was that payrolls preserved at Delta will be used to provide for families.

Comment on toxic culture stands. I lived one at Northwest. The difference is night to day.


I'm very happy employees have job security
for 6 months. Trust me, I know intimately what its like to face furlough. Union doesn't mean bad culture, just like non-union doesn't equal great culture. It's comes down your respective leadership. With a contract, you have an agreement in writing that must be followed.
• Ex: many thousands of mainline jobs would disappear if the Pilot's scope clause went away, shifting more flying to regionals and JVs. That's not even debatable.
• Ex:2 ALPA negotiated profit sharing 15 years ago, and it wouldn't exist without them.

Right now DL is highly incentivized to use this crisis to win the anti-union campaign they've been invested in for years. Ask yourself, how much of the 25M daily cash burn is reduced by leaves and such? And how much of the 5.4B in CARES is still unspent? DL can afford to carry over extra employees to be ready for a rebound, and win hearts and minds. Just like they can afford to still invest in SLC/LAX/LGA terminal construction. Long term investment. Be happy for no furloughs, but don't buy their union propaganda.

Quick history of where profit sharing came from
http://www.alpa.org/dal/investindeltapilots

A look under the hood at the corporate PR machine
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/delta-airlines-anti-union_n_5cd99d0de4b0615b08171d6a

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