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737max8
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:42 pm

AirnerdTX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Southwest has had some fine achievements but those are past achievements: now the execs need to manage for today's realities, and workers need to understand the need to brings costs into line with revenues. The gap is too big to fix by tinkering with work rules or once-a-week leisure routes. If workers don't want lower wages or significant cuts to minimum hours there will be reductions in employment. If WN doesn't want to spend $ Billions to put forward very generous voluntary departure plans (the way DL did), it can use furloughs (the way AA and UA did).



Southwest did offer voluntary buyouts, about a quarter of their employees participated. Bought them out, not just temp leave.


Voluntary separation was nowhere even close to a quarter of employees, what are you talking about?

Most people took extended time off, NOT separation.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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strfyr51
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!



42 mortgages

42 school tuitions

42 elder care fundings

42 car payments

Alsok as already noted, this is the crack in the dike. Sadly, the tradition was broken. There will be thousands more to follow.

I suspect this was done to get negotiations to the table and to be serious. WN won't survive if they do not lower costs. There are multiple ways to do this. I hope a compromise is achieved.

Lightsaber

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************
I actually doubt this scenario. WN has always been a tight organization and their people do a Lot for their airline. OR? There's no way they could have prospered all these years. Though they have had strikes in the past their Labor peace has been remarkable over many years. But the present crop of management went out of their way to go into "deep water" with their expansion at DEN and into Hawaii. So? They might not still be in a position to ask for unbridled loyalty to the "cause" as whatever that might be, as they're getting to be Just another "Large Airline" which I suspect has lost their "Edge".
 
7673mech
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:30 pm

 
Noreastshuttle
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:59 pm

Told you it was only the beginning, and more to come.

“It’s just 42...” now it’s additional 400+

These are warning shots.
BOS-WASH Megalopolis
 
777Mech
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:20 pm

Full pay till the last day. Make WN lose their precious "No furloughs in our history title". There's a price tag they'll put on it.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:37 am

737max8 wrote:
AirnerdTX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Southwest has had some fine achievements but those are past achievements: now the execs need to manage for today's realities, and workers need to understand the need to brings costs into line with revenues. The gap is too big to fix by tinkering with work rules or once-a-week leisure routes. If workers don't want lower wages or significant cuts to minimum hours there will be reductions in employment. If WN doesn't want to spend $ Billions to put forward very generous voluntary departure plans (the way DL did), it can use furloughs (the way AA and UA did).



Southwest did offer voluntary buyouts, about a quarter of their employees participated. Bought them out, not just temp leave.


Voluntary separation was nowhere even close to a quarter of employees, what are you talking about?

Most people took extended time off, NOT separation.


The 3Q20 10-Q lists details of the exits separate from voluntary leave:

As determined after the deadline to rescind such election, a total of over 4,200 Employees elected to participate in Voluntary Separation Program 2020, consisting of
the following breakdown among workgroups: 1,060 from Ground Operations and Provisioning, 725 Flight Attendants, 630 Pilots, 390 from
Customer Support and Services, 185 from Maintenance, 90 from other Contract groups, and 1,140 Managerial and Administrative
Employees. Voluntary Separation Program 2020 participants’ last day of work primarily fell between August 15, 2020 and September 30,
2020, as assigned by the Company based on the operational needs of particular work locations and departments, determined on an individualby-individual basis.


Active full time equivalent employees only dropped by about 2,700 9/30/19 to 9/30/20.

It looks like they took charges of about $800 million for the permanent separations.

I have to wonder in what quarter they're predicting flight/passenger activity to rise to a point where they're not overstaffed.
 
kiowa
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Noreastshuttle wrote:
Told you it was only the beginning, and more to come.

“It’s just 42...” now it’s additional 400+

These are warning shots.



Nobody has actually been furloughed yet correct? Still warning shots at this point so just keeping managements options open while adding pressure.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:12 pm

kiowa wrote:
Nobody has actually been furloughed yet correct? Still warning shots at this point so just keeping managements options open while adding pressure.


WARN notices were issued at the beginning of the month, so that starts the 60-day clock. There's also the possibility that Congress might pass another round of support for the airlines, but that seems unlikely until January.

777Mech wrote:
Full pay till the last day. Make WN lose their precious "No furloughs in our history title". There's a price tag they'll put on it.


They did put a price tag on it. They're apparently asking labor to take a pay cut of 10% vs. furloughing 15% of their mechanics.
 
777Mech
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:46 pm

ScottB wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Nobody has actually been furloughed yet correct? Still warning shots at this point so just keeping managements options open while adding pressure.


WARN notices were issued at the beginning of the month, so that starts the 60-day clock. There's also the possibility that Congress might pass another round of support for the airlines, but that seems unlikely until January.

777Mech wrote:
Full pay till the last day. Make WN lose their precious "No furloughs in our history title". There's a price tag they'll put on it.


They did put a price tag on it. They're apparently asking labor to take a pay cut of 10% vs. furloughing 15% of their mechanics.


Whether they are willing to furlough over that amount is still up in the air. They can warn them all the want, but following through with it is a different story. If that's what the price tag is for ruining reputation and morale then that's sad.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:11 am

WN isn't just looking for a 10% paycut. They are also saying that every union has to additionally add a "Force Majeure" clause to their CBAs in order to prevent furloughs. While the FAs haven't received WARN notices their Negotiating Committee has been told that WN is looking to furlough 1500 FAs. It isn't Herb's airline anymore.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:36 am

777Mech wrote:
Whether they are willing to furlough over that amount is still up in the air. They can warn them all the want, but following through with it is a different story. If that's what the price tag is for ruining reputation and morale then that's sad.


WN spent a bit over $8 billion last year on pay and benefits. A 15% furlough probably saves close to a billion a year when they're burning at a rate of $3.5-4 billion/year.
 
Chemist
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:30 am

The people who think this is sad - and we all do - hopefully aren't feeling WN is some horrible company. They've tried really hard to NOT furlough people. Is there something these people are blaming WN for? Seems to me that everybody taking a small pay cut during the current economic conditions is preferable to a bunch of people losing their jobs, but I guess that's the difference between selfish and altruistic. And the unions are the ones who are going to make that decision.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:41 pm

[list=][/list]The Pilots and FAs have already taken about a 20% paycut due to reduction in flying (Covid and the MAX grounding). That's not counting what was saved by the VSP (early retirement) and ExTO (extended leave) programs. SWAPA (the pilots union) and the FA union have pointed out changes that can save the 10% WN wants but WN is insisting not only on the 10% paycut but adding Force Majeure to the CBAs. The WN unions aren't being selfish but WN management is being stubborn and is using the threats of furlough to force the permanent changes to the CBAs that the want.
 
737max8
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:37 am

What do people really expect WN to do? Keep losing billions and be forever in debt like everyone else? Would far more damage the airline's future than 10% pay cuts or (hopefully) temporary furloughs.

You have to tackle your number one cost...
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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lightsaber
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:04 pm

ScottB wrote:
777Mech wrote:
Whether they are willing to furlough over that amount is still up in the air. They can warn them all the want, but following through with it is a different story. If that's what the price tag is for ruining reputation and morale then that's sad.


WN spent a bit over $8 billion last year on pay and benefits. A 15% furlough probably saves close to a billion a year when they're burning at a rate of $3.5-4 billion/year.

WN is doing what they can to avoid furloughs. But if that burn rate continues, Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant will have easy growth on the other side. There will be no shortage of good used aircraft and staff, including pilots, for years.

Southwest cannot afford the current path. They need cash for more efficient aircraft, investment reserves, and any future downturn.

Labor is their #1 expense. As bad as it might be, they have to break with tradition and cut labor costs. How? That will be up to the unions. I personally predict the unions who pick furloughs will have to furlough again.

This will change employee relationships forever at Southwest.

Lightsaber
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enplaned
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:44 pm

737tanker wrote:
WN isn't just looking for a 10% paycut. They are also saying that every union has to additionally add a "Force Majeure" clause to their CBAs in order to prevent furloughs. While the FAs haven't received WARN notices their Negotiating Committee has been told that WN is looking to furlough 1500 FAs. It isn't Herb's airline anymore.


I'm not a huge Gary Kelly fan, but let's be fair. This Covid downturn is massively worse than anything Herb had to deal with.
 
Lootess
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:10 pm

enplaned wrote:
737tanker wrote:
WN isn't just looking for a 10% paycut. They are also saying that every union has to additionally add a "Force Majeure" clause to their CBAs in order to prevent furloughs. While the FAs haven't received WARN notices their Negotiating Committee has been told that WN is looking to furlough 1500 FAs. It isn't Herb's airline anymore.


I'm not a huge Gary Kelly fan, but let's be fair. This Covid downturn is massively worse than anything Herb had to deal with.


I've always liked Gary because he tells it like it is, and this is no exception. But this is definitely worse than anything else Southwest has ever faced. No matter what they do, or how much they throw the kitchen sink such as making companion pass way easier, customers aren't flocking back.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:27 pm

737tanker wrote:
The Pilots and FAs have already taken about a 20% paycut due to reduction in flying (Covid and the MAX grounding). That's not counting what was saved by the VSP (early retirement) and ExTO (extended leave) programs. SWAPA (the pilots union) and the FA union have pointed out changes that can save the 10% WN wants but WN is insisting not only on the 10% paycut but adding Force Majeure to the CBAs. The WN unions aren't being selfish but WN management is being stubborn and is using the threats of furlough to force the permanent changes to the CBAs that the want.


In Q3, Southwest brought in a total of $1.793 billion in revenue. They spent $1.678 billion on pay & benefits, excluding the government grant and the cost of early retirement incentives. That leaves $115 million for everything else over three months -- fuel, leases, rent, maintenance, etc. That's not sustainable. Hopefully traffic will come back with a vaccine, but business travel will be very slow in coming back.

The choice is basically to keep everyone on at lower pay with less work to do for everyone, or to cut some employees.
 
kiowa
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:56 pm

ScottB wrote:
737tanker wrote:
The Pilots and FAs have already taken about a 20% paycut due to reduction in flying (Covid and the MAX grounding). That's not counting what was saved by the VSP (early retirement) and ExTO (extended leave) programs. SWAPA (the pilots union) and the FA union have pointed out changes that can save the 10% WN wants but WN is insisting not only on the 10% paycut but adding Force Majeure to the CBAs. The WN unions aren't being selfish but WN management is being stubborn and is using the threats of furlough to force the permanent changes to the CBAs that the want.


In Q3, Southwest brought in a total of $1.793 billion in revenue. They spent $1.678 billion on pay & benefits, excluding the government grant and the cost of early retirement incentives. That leaves $115 million for everything else over three months -- fuel, leases, rent, maintenance, etc. That's not sustainable. Hopefully traffic will come back with a vaccine, but business travel will be very slow in coming back.

The choice is basically to keep everyone on at lower pay with less work to do for everyone, or to cut some employees.


That is AN option but not the only option. It certainly is the easy option for management though and typically lasts a long time.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:12 pm

ScottB wrote:
737tanker wrote:
The Pilots and FAs have already taken about a 20% paycut due to reduction in flying (Covid and the MAX grounding). That's not counting what was saved by the VSP (early retirement) and ExTO (extended leave) programs. SWAPA (the pilots union) and the FA union have pointed out changes that can save the 10% WN wants but WN is insisting not only on the 10% paycut but adding Force Majeure to the CBAs. The WN unions aren't being selfish but WN management is being stubborn and is using the threats of furlough to force the permanent changes to the CBAs that the want.


In Q3, Southwest brought in a total of $1.793 billion in revenue. They spent $1.678 billion on pay & benefits, excluding the government grant and the cost of early retirement incentives. That leaves $115 million for everything else over three months -- fuel, leases, rent, maintenance, etc. That's not sustainable. Hopefully traffic will come back with a vaccine, but business travel will be very slow in coming back.

The choice is basically to keep everyone on at lower pay with less work to do for everyone, or to cut some employees.

No that is not the only choice. The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. Furloughs at WN will be very expensive and will not save the money that WN management is looking for. As an example no Mechanic can be furloughed if there is any outsourced maintenance being accomplished. On the Pilots side any furloughed pilot will be getting 2-6 months of pay (depending on their longevity). Additionally WN will incur the expense of retraining all the downgraded Captains as well as paying for moves or hotel expenses for displaced pilots. Again there are numerous expenses when you furlough employees not just cost savings.
 
ScottB
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:43 pm

737tanker wrote:
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs.


People (including you) keep saying the unions have offered 10% savings but no one offers any specifics as to how that cuts the amount of money flowing out the door. Or, in other words, if they spent $1.678 billion last quarter in pay and benefits, how does that get reduced to $1.5 billion?

Also, just throwing out "force majeure clause" is meaningless. Without context, i.e. what sort of force majeure events and what provisions of the contract might be invalidated, it's impossible to conclude whether that's reasonable. For example, if the government were to shut down all air travel for an indefinite, extended period, it probably would make sense to invalidate a no furlough clause before the company would have to be liquidated.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:27 pm

10% HARD savings is clearly what WN management wants, not some SOFT 10% that looks good on paper but may or may not come to fruition
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
bob75013
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:15 pm

[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:17 pm

bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote]

I too would like to know how WN will spend 10% less with the union offers.

My math says the union offers save nothing in 2021, please prove me wrong.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
Lootess
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:55 pm

bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote]


Sounds like "full pay until the last day" to me.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:24 pm

ScottB wrote:
737tanker wrote:
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs.

Also, just throwing out "force majeure clause" is meaningless. Without context, i.e. what sort of force majeure events and what provisions of the contract might be invalidated, it's impossible to conclude whether that's reasonable. For example, if the government were to shut down all air travel for an indefinite, extended period, it probably would make sense to invalidate a no furlough clause before the company would have to be liquidated.

the WN Labor negotiators are telling the Unions the the Force Majeure events will be determined by Management when it occurs and Management will determine the sections of the CBA will be impacted at the time they declare Force Majeure.
 
smartplane
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:40 pm

737tanker wrote:
ScottB wrote:
737tanker wrote:
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs.

Also, just throwing out "force majeure clause" is meaningless. Without context, i.e. what sort of force majeure events and what provisions of the contract might be invalidated, it's impossible to conclude whether that's reasonable. For example, if the government were to shut down all air travel for an indefinite, extended period, it probably would make sense to invalidate a no furlough clause before the company would have to be liquidated.

the WN Labor negotiators are telling the Unions the the Force Majeure events will be determined by Management when it occurs and Management will determine the sections of the CBA will be impacted at the time they declare Force Majeure.

Force majeure has two meanings:
1. Unforeseeable circumstances that prevent someone from fulfilling a contract, and
2. Irresistible compulsion or superior strength.

WN will be advocating 1 in bargaining with unions. Unions will feel 2 is used to extract 1 concessions. As part of the negotiations, unions should insist identical provisions are written into every management contract.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:18 pm

bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote]



I hear nothing but crickets...
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:59 pm

bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote][/quote]


I hear nothing but crickets...[/quote]


Perhaps they’d rather keep it vague and avoid discussing details publicly.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:00 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote][/quote]


I hear nothing but crickets...[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Perhaps they’d rather keep it vague and avoid discussing details publicly.[/quote]

If there is a resolution, keeping quiet is appropriate. Just a statement a resolution with union X.

If there is a resolution. If not, let's see. WN must cut the cash burn. If there isn't a cut, expect furloughs.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
737MAX7
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:03 pm

bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote][/quote]


I hear nothing but crickets...[/quote]

Maybe some of us don’t want to get fired or face discipline for things said on a public forum because I guarantee you the company can see it. They are literally paying people to sit in a room full of monitors searching social media for stuff like this along with what customers are saying.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

If there is a resolution, keeping quiet is appropriate. Just a statement a resolution with union X.

If there is a resolution. If not, let's see. WN must cut the cash burn. If there isn't a cut, expect furloughs.

Lightsaber


I’m talking about the employees in this forum. I have so much I’d love to add to these discussions but it’s safer not to engage with details publicly.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bob75013
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:38 am

Sorry, but i have a rule.

I don't believe people who say something and then not back it up with details..

Heck I don't know who you are. For all I know you could be some 13 year old kid typing on his mother's basement computer.
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:53 am

Negotiations are usually held under the guise of NDAs. It’s not unusual for details of said negotiations to be made public.
 
737tanker
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:21 pm

bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote][/quote]


I hear nothing but crickets...[/quote]

The Union leaders don't negotiate in public so all the specifics aren't known to the members. However I'll give 2 examples that have been publicly mentioned on the WN pilot forum.
1) Offer another round of early retirements (VSP) and extended leaves (ExTO)
2) Giving back 1 week of vacation which will be repaid in 2022. Per the WN CBA if a pilot used his vacation instead of cashing it in that 1 week of vacation can be turned into 2 by proper bidding with no loss of pay.
Additionally there are inefficiencies in the use of pilots (Split to cover & Hindsight are 2) that the Union keeps pointing out which management refuses to acknowledge.
 
Mike89406
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:47 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
[quote="737tanker" ]
The WN Unions have offered ways to save the 10% that Management is looking for without furloughs but Management will not accept anything unless the Unions accept the addition of Force Majeure clauses to their CBAs. .[/quote]


You keep saying that. Why don't you tell us exactly what the unions have offered.[/quote][/quote]


I hear nothing but crickets...[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Maybe some of us don’t want to get fired or face discipline for things said on a public forum because I guarantee you the company can see it. They are literally paying people to sit in a room full of monitors searching social media for stuff like this along with what customers are saying.[/quote]


I agree and at times like this when companies are looking to save money...it’s more important to keep my job
 
phlswaflyer
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:22 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


Unless you are on of the 42 - and at the Holidays. What's wrong with you?
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:27 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
Forty two employees. Hardly worth talking about. Yawn!


Unless you are on of the 42 - and at the Holidays. What's wrong with you?


I wasn’t suggesting it isn’t difficult for the 42 who would be affected or that it was good, just that 42 when the industry is losing billions is rather minimal. Consider that other travel-related companies like Disney have had to furlough tens of thousands.

Others later suggested that it was perhaps indicative of larger things to come at Southwest which is a fair point.

What’s wrong with you?
 
737MAX7
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:10 am

bob75013 wrote:
Sorry, but i have a rule.

I don't believe people who say something and then not back it up with details..

Heck I don't know who you are. For all I know you could be some 13 year old kid typing on his mother's basement computer.

I understand your rule and am the same way. I would absolutely love to give you the details but I guarantee I’d be disciplined/fired. This isn’t Herbs airline any more, hasn’t been for at least the last 5 years I’ve been with the company.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7291
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:19 am

737tanker wrote:
2) Giving back 1 week of vacation which will be repaid in 2022. Per the WN CBA if a pilot used his vacation instead of cashing it in that 1 week of vacation can be turned into 2 by proper bidding with no loss of pay.
Additionally there are inefficiencies in the use of pilots (Split to cover & Hindsight are 2) that the Union keeps pointing out which management refuses to acknowledge.


In normal times, these would be valuable cost-saving measures. These are not normal times. Having pilots give back a week of vacation doesn't save cash going out the door. Fixing inefficiencies in the use of pilots is meaningless when the company already has too many pilots for a schedule which is itself too large for the amount of demand in the market. They ran about 2/3 normal capacity in Q3; that basically means that after the first round of extended leave/early retirement, they're still 20% or so overstaffed. Getting more productivity out of labor when you have too many people on payroll doesn't fix the fundamental problem.

737tanker wrote:
1) Offer another round of early retirements (VSP) and extended leaves (ExTO)


Nothing wrong with that, but it's a stalling tactic. And if they don't get enough takers for leaves/retirements then what?
 
737tanker
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:58 pm

ScottB

WN Management themselves are saying that if you cut your pay 10% we won't have to furlough so the Unions are showing them where they can save that amount of money without having to do the pay cuts. It was recently announced by the WN Mechanics Union that in lieu of the 10% pay cut that the Mechanics pay for 2021 & 2022 be frozen at the 2020 rates and there will be no furloughs. So again WN Management is looking for cost reduction not necessarily staff reduction. However one thing that Management is not willing to budge on is their demand to add a Force Majeure clause to all the CBAs so that in the future they can impose whatever changes they want without having to negotiate with the unions..
 
ScottB
Posts: 7291
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:13 pm

737tanker wrote:
WN Management themselves are saying that if you cut your pay 10% we won't have to furlough so the Unions are showing them where they can save that amount of money without having to do the pay cuts. It was recently announced by the WN Mechanics Union that in lieu of the 10% pay cut that the Mechanics pay for 2021 & 2022 be frozen at the 2020 rates and there will be no furloughs. So again WN Management is looking for cost reduction not necessarily staff reduction. However one thing that Management is not willing to budge on is their demand to add a Force Majeure clause to all the CBAs so that in the future they can impose whatever changes they want without having to negotiate with the unions..


I know they're looking for cost reduction rather than staff reduction. If the mechanics have agreed to forgo a pay increase for 2021 and 2022, that does reduce the amount of money that will go out the door next year. Giving up a week of vacation doesn't reduce the amount of money to be spent next year. More efficient scheduling doesn't accomplish that either. Both of those measures would let the company do more with fewer pilots, but they already have too many pilots for the current economic conditions.

A force majeure clause would typically need to specify particular types of events -- pandemic, natural disaster, economic depression, etc, -- to be valid. Otherwise the Company could theoretically make unilateral changes to the contract if GK's coffee were cold one morning.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:38 pm

WN Ramp here, Los Angeles based. I implore all within the company to not discuss specific union concessionary details that are being discussed at the moment. Say what has been posted publicly but keep the details quiet. What was said above in earlier posts is that WN has a team in our NOC (Network Operations Control) specifically for weeding out stuff like this. Our management is really tightening the ship. In days like this let’s not give management a reason to write somebody up or even let someone in the worse case. I say that because that has happened.

That being said, for what has been discussed publicly. On the TWU 555 side, we have given the company alternatives to achieve the 10% cost savings they desire without the need for a furlough. 555 along with the majority within the 556 wholly combat the need for furloughs since we can achieve their cost saving goals in other ways. I can tell you here today that most of our ramp lean on denying pay cuts unless HDQ can meet us somewhere in the middle.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:11 pm

737tanker wrote:
ScottB

WN Management themselves are saying that if you cut your pay 10% we won't have to furlough so the Unions are showing them where they can save that amount of money without having to do the pay cuts. It was recently announced by the WN Mechanics Union that in lieu of the 10% pay cut that the Mechanics pay for 2021 & 2022 be frozen at the 2020 rates and there will be no furloughs. So again WN Management is looking for cost reduction not necessarily staff reduction. However one thing that Management is not willing to budge on is their demand to add a Force Majeure clause to all the CBAs so that in the future they can impose whatever changes they want without having to negotiate with the unions..


Something like this saves money later, when the really need to save the money now. 2/3rds of the savings would come in 2022 - when they hopefully won't need the savings anymore. It's 10% in month 1 vs 10% over two years, which in this case, makes a big difference.

Can't they agree on something like 10% cut now - and over the the five years from 2022 to 2026, they will pay bonuses from some agreed upon percentage of profits.
 
737tanker
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:53 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
737tanker wrote:
ScottB

WN Management themselves are saying that if you cut your pay 10% we won't have to furlough so the Unions are showing them where they can save that amount of money without having to do the pay cuts. It was recently announced by the WN Mechanics Union that in lieu of the 10% pay cut that the Mechanics pay for 2021 & 2022 be frozen at the 2020 rates and there will be no furloughs. So again WN Management is looking for cost reduction not necessarily staff reduction. However one thing that Management is not willing to budge on is their demand to add a Force Majeure clause to all the CBAs so that in the future they can impose whatever changes they want without having to negotiate with the unions..


Something like this saves money later, when the really need to save the money now. 2/3rds of the savings would come in 2022 - when they hopefully won't need the savings anymore. It's 10% in month 1 vs 10% over two years, which in this case, makes a big difference.

Can't they agree on something like 10% cut now - and over the the five years from 2022 to 2026, they will pay bonuses from some agreed upon percentage of profits.

It was WN Management that dropped the 10% paycut for the Mechanics and asked for the pay freeze not the Mechanics. In any case any paycuts (either as a pay reduction or pay freeze) that WN is asking for they are not offering to make up in the future. that is why the Unions are offering the equivalent in what WN is asking for in work rule changes.
 
737tanker
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:01 pm

ScottB wrote:
737tanker wrote:
WN Management themselves are saying that if you cut your pay 10% we won't have to furlough so the Unions are showing them where they can save that amount of money without having to do the pay cuts. It was recently announced by the WN Mechanics Union that in lieu of the 10% pay cut that the Mechanics pay for 2021 & 2022 be frozen at the 2020 rates and there will be no furloughs. So again WN Management is looking for cost reduction not necessarily staff reduction. However one thing that Management is not willing to budge on is their demand to add a Force Majeure clause to all the CBAs so that in the future they can impose whatever changes they want without having to negotiate with the unions..


I know they're looking for cost reduction rather than staff reduction. If the mechanics have agreed to forgo a pay increase for 2021 and 2022, that does reduce the amount of money that will go out the door next year. Giving up a week of vacation doesn't reduce the amount of money to be spent next year. More efficient scheduling doesn't accomplish that either. Both of those measures would let the company do more with fewer pilots, but they already have too many pilots for the current economic conditions.

A force majeure clause would typically need to specify particular types of events -- pandemic, natural disaster, economic depression, etc, -- to be valid. Otherwise the Company could theoretically make unilateral changes to the contract if GK's coffee were cold one morning.


The Pilots have a clause in their CBA that allow WN to not observe certain parts of the CBA when Irregular Operations impact certain cities. WN has taken that clause to mean if there are Irregular Operations in SFO, for example, then they can apply that clause to Pilots flying in BWI. That's one of the reasons that the Unions are against the Force Majeure clause because Management is saying that they will decide what Force Majeure is when it happens.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:06 pm

Thought I would give an update: WN has sent out WARN notices to the three major workgroups. SWAPA, TWU556, TWU555, IAM. I myself received my WARN notice this morning for a projected furlough date of March 15. As well as a projected furlough length of six months or more but temporary.

Personally, I see this as no more than a scare tactic to further along concession negotiations which are ongoing.

But to my fellow union brothers who are affected: Pilots, FAs, Ramp, Provo, Cargo, Customer Service, as well as our mechanics both GSE and Aircraft. My thoughts are all with you and stay strong!!
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:28 pm

WARN notices sent:
2,551 Ramp, Provisioning, Ops, and Cargo Agents
1,176 Customer Service Agents
370 CS&S and SOS Representatives
1,500 Flight Attendants
1,221 Pilots
6 Flight Instructors
4 Flight Sim Techs
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9290
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:51 pm

'The Dallas Morning News' confirms Flflyer83's numbers:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... wage-cuts/
 
tphuang
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:55 pm

wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.

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