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fswartz
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:41 pm

 
WNagent310
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:07 pm

Might I add, a lot of these WARN notices were sent out to groups with the most decreased flight schedules. 5 year agent got hit with the WARN notice in LA while the 2 year guy in OAK only gets a high impact notice. A 10 year guy gets hit in Nashville but a 4 year guy BWI doesn’t. Goes to show that this is just a ploy to put pressure for concession negotiations which are still ongoing. 555 union contract states that potential RIF has to be based on seniority systemwide and not to be based on operational need.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:12 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Might I add, a lot of these WARN notices were sent out to groups with the most decreased flight schedules. 5 year agent got hit with the WARN notice in LA while the 2 year guy in OAK only gets a high impact notice. A 10 year guy gets hit in Nashville but a 4 year guy BWI doesn’t. Goes to show that this is just a ploy to put pressure for concession negotiations which are still ongoing. 555 union contract states that potential RIF has to be based on seniority systemwide and not to be based on operational need.


You might want to re-read the contract.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WNagent310
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:40 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Might I add, a lot of these WARN notices were sent out to groups with the most decreased flight schedules. 5 year agent got hit with the WARN notice in LA while the 2 year guy in OAK only gets a high impact notice. A 10 year guy gets hit in Nashville but a 4 year guy BWI doesn’t. Goes to show that this is just a ploy to put pressure for concession negotiations which are still ongoing. 555 union contract states that potential RIF has to be based on seniority systemwide and not to be based on operational need.


You might want to re-read the contract.


I have read it, and I know it has to be in reverse seniority. What it doesn’t mention is the fact that we are going towards a system furlough process and only merely mentions an RIF per station. If it was done correctly. Then they would have gone as said in “reverse seniority” starting from the bottom to top systemwide. And stations that are over staffed and to those that aren’t due to the workforce displacement, agents shall be given a preferential bid to relocate as said by the contract.

The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.

But again, given that’s how they have done it shows that this is nothing more than a scare tactic to force us to give in to their demands. I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.
 
jayunited
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:02 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Might I add, a lot of these WARN notices were sent out to groups with the most decreased flight schedules. 5 year agent got hit with the WARN notice in LA while the 2 year guy in OAK only gets a high impact notice. A 10 year guy gets hit in Nashville but a 4 year guy BWI doesn’t. Goes to show that this is just a ploy to put pressure for concession negotiations which are still ongoing. 555 union contract states that potential RIF has to be based on seniority systemwide and not to be based on operational need.


You might want to re-read the contract.


I have read it, and I know it has to be in reverse seniority. What it doesn’t mention is the fact that we are going towards a system furlough process and only merely mentions an RIF per station. If it was done correctly. Then they would have gone as said in “reverse seniority” starting from the bottom to top systemwide. And stations that are over staffed and to those that aren’t due to the workforce displacement, agents shall be given a preferential bid to relocate as said by the contract.

The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.

But again, given that’s how they have done it shows that this is nothing more than a scare tactic to force us to give in to their demands. I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.



I wouldn't freak out just yet if I were you. Back in July United made a similar mistake I was getting emails from union employees with 30 years company seniority asking why they had received a WARN letter. United had to go back and correct the mistake and rescind those letters that were sent out in error, and this isn't the first time United has furloughed and yet mistakes were made. For Southwest this could be their first ever involuntary furlough so it stands to reason they may have sent some employees a WARN notice by mistake. If you believe you received a WARN notice in error I would suggest you first contact the union then secondly contact your HR representative to get it resolved. This could be a ploy to pressure unions into concessions but if it isn't once the WARN letters are sent out the clock is ticking downward towards layoffs. Companies are only required to give 60 days notice which isn't a whole lot of time.
 
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:07 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.


I can't speak to CBAs at WN, but generally speaking, every airline CBA states that furloughs are done at each station by inverse seniority order, and yes some stations may be more adversely impacted than others. So, if WN cuts the schedule by 50% at BNA but only 10% at LAX, you may have someone at LAX with 5 years seniority who isn't impacted while someone with 10 years at BNA is.

Of course there's also language that usually permits bumping rights, where that impacted 10 year agent in BNA can displace a more junior agent at another station if they wish to relocate, but your blanket statement about the company not being able to pick and choose which stations they wish to furlough from is likely not accurate.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:11 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.


I can't speak to CBAs at WN, but generally speaking, every airline CBA states that furloughs are done at each station by inverse seniority order, and yes some stations may be more adversely impacted than others. So, if WN cuts the schedule by 50% at BNA but only 10% at LAX, you may have someone at LAX with 5 years seniority who isn't impacted while someone with 10 years at BNA is.

Of course there's also language that usually permits bumping rights, where that impacted 10 year agent in BNA can displace a more junior agent at another station if they wish to relocate, but your blanket statement about the company not being able to pick and choose which stations they wish to furlough from is likely not accurate.


:checkmark:
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:44 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Might I add, a lot of these WARN notices were sent out to groups with the most decreased flight schedules. 5 year agent got hit with the WARN notice in LA while the 2 year guy in OAK only gets a high impact notice. A 10 year guy gets hit in Nashville but a 4 year guy BWI doesn’t. Goes to show that this is just a ploy to put pressure for concession negotiations which are still ongoing. 555 union contract states that potential RIF has to be based on seniority systemwide and not to be based on operational need.


You might want to re-read the contract.


I have read it, and I know it has to be in reverse seniority. What it doesn’t mention is the fact that we are going towards a system furlough process and only merely mentions an RIF per station. If it was done correctly. Then they would have gone as said in “reverse seniority” starting from the bottom to top systemwide. And stations that are over staffed and to those that aren’t due to the workforce displacement, agents shall be given a preferential bid to relocate as said by the contract.

The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.

But again, given that’s how they have done it shows that this is nothing more than a scare tactic to force us to give in to their demands. I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.


And are you part-time or full-time? In most WN contracts, the most senior part-time agent gets furloughed before the most junior full-time agent.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:56 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.


You likely have bumping rights, where you can exercise your 5 year seniority to displace that 2 year agent and take their spot if their station is busier. But yeah, that' exactly how inverse seniority works with furloughs; it's not done by systemwide seniority, but typically seniority within the classification within each station, and a busier station can and will see different reductions than a smaller or less busy one.

Again, I can't swear on a stack of bibles that's how the language reads in the CBA you have, but generally, all airline CBAs work that way.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:04 pm

tphuang wrote:
wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.


How many did you expect? DL had ~1,800 pilots go in the $3.1 Billion voluntary separation program, and then cut hours to 30/month for another 1,700 that had been set for layoff. UA planned layoffs of 2,850 pilots before a deal was reached.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/new ... oughs.html
 
tphuang
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.


How many did you expect? DL had ~1,800 pilots go in the $3.1 Billion voluntary separation program, and then cut hours to 30/month for another 1,700 that had been set for layoff. UA planned layoffs of 2,850 pilots before a deal was reached.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/new ... oughs.html


I expected WN to recover sooner than big 3, so I actually am not expecting any furlough among pilots at least.
 
Coexstud
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:49 pm

Pilots got notices today like 1500
 
Sooner787
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:51 pm

Cruel irony that the Congresscritters those of us in the industry are looking to
for stimulus extension haven't missed a paycheck since this effing pandemic started. :(
 
SWADawg
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:59 pm

Coexstud wrote:
Pilots got notices today like 1500

1221 actually.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
Lootess
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.


How many did you expect? DL had ~1,800 pilots go in the $3.1 Billion voluntary separation program, and then cut hours to 30/month for another 1,700 that had been set for layoff. UA planned layoffs of 2,850 pilots before a deal was reached.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/new ... oughs.html


I expected WN to recover sooner than big 3, so I actually am not expecting any furlough among pilots at least.


The fact is they never made any material cuts or buyouts by October. Now they are paying the price of holding out months longer when they still are not making enough revenue to cover the bloated amount of staff.

It's not going to be just one airline that recovers sooner, they all would have recover at a similar rate to know the environment is changing. It currently is not happening.
 
san88
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:38 pm

Sad day but I’m hopeful. As a 14 year employee and along with others Have volunteered to take the 18 month furlough earlier this year to help mitigate the current circumstances. I feel SWA played this wrong from the beginning of COVID crisis. They decided to implemented cost saving measures from a top down approach (leaves, buyouts) without union input or collaboration (exception of pilots buyout package). It’s a sense of frustration that the company hasn’t been forthcoming since the spring and once the Cares money ran dry, their only solution is 10% pay cuts at the 11th hour.

Alaska for example was forthcoming with the #s exactly how many were going to be furloughed to its employees and gave them time to volunteer to take those leaves. SWA has been playing this cat and mouse game with the unions, if they seriously wanted to work together they need to cut the bs.

The FA union decided not to sign a NDA with SWA during these negotiations so it can communicate with its membership unfiltered. SWA want permanent concessions to the contract it otherwise would not get in a normal contract cycle. I don’t see any union on property voting yes on concessions and without psp extension it doesn’t look great for 2021.
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
dstblj52
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:43 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.


How many did you expect? DL had ~1,800 pilots go in the $3.1 Billion voluntary separation program, and then cut hours to 30/month for another 1,700 that had been set for layoff. UA planned layoffs of 2,850 pilots before a deal was reached.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/new ... oughs.html

its actually easier for swa to furlough as unlike say delta which has to manage a bunch of type training to furlough people southwest just has to downgrade one captain for every two guys they furlough
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:24 am

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
wow, that's a huge number of pilots for an airline that I thought would be best suited to weather this.


How many did you expect? DL had ~1,800 pilots go in the $3.1 Billion voluntary separation program, and then cut hours to 30/month for another 1,700 that had been set for layoff. UA planned layoffs of 2,850 pilots before a deal was reached.

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/new ... oughs.html


I expected WN to recover sooner than big 3, so I actually am not expecting any furlough among pilots at least.


It’s apparent now with surges every 3-4 months and winter upon us with people back inside, that no airline will really start meaningfully recovering until widespread inoculations have occurred. That’s several months where they’re still going to be burning money on staff they don’t need absent a PSP 2.0
 
CobaltScar
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:57 pm

None of the unions are going to agree to pay cut concessions. Much easier to just let the company furlough the bottom 5 percent or whatever they decide on.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
I expected WN to recover sooner than big 3, so I actually am not expecting any furlough among pilots at least.


It costs a lot of $$$ to carry a couple thousand pilots you don't need. If they WARNed 1221, the number they don't need may well be bigger than that for the next six months. They may have a surplus of ~500 out a couple of years.

DL reduced guaranteed hours very significantly (down to 30) for its furlough-targeted pilots. What were the parameters of the B6 and UA deals?

WN, by virtue of its runt international network, may recover faster than AA/DL/UA. I don't see those carriers ceding profitable share too willingly. I don't see why shareholders should be happy with WN wasting more money carrying surplus staff just because it started with less debt. If employees want to dictate how the carrier is staffed, let them put up their own money and ESOP it.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:22 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
None of the unions are going to agree to pay cut concessions. Much easier to just let the company furlough the bottom 5 percent or whatever they decide on.


WN could have done that October 1. This way management shows that senior employees are happy to see the company eat its young. Every time you see or read about the union complaining about management salaries, bonuses, or stock awards in favor of 'shared sacrifice' have a good chuckle at this hypocritical view.
 
Lootess
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:34 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
None of the unions are going to agree to pay cut concessions. Much easier to just let the company furlough the bottom 5 percent or whatever they decide on.


WN could have done that October 1. This way management shows that senior employees are happy to see the company eat its young. Every time you see or read about the union complaining about management salaries, bonuses, or stock awards in favor of 'shared sacrifice' have a good chuckle at this hypocritical view.


Exactly. Just this go around management being so full of pride thinking 'we never furloughed anyone ever, we won't do it October 1 like everyone else, that'll show the competition'. Of course they forgot they don't control the virus, or the trajectory that things continue to get worse around the world daily.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.


I can't speak to CBAs at WN, but generally speaking, every airline CBA states that furloughs are done at each station by inverse seniority order, and yes some stations may be more adversely impacted than others. So, if WN cuts the schedule by 50% at BNA but only 10% at LAX, you may have someone at LAX with 5 years seniority who isn't impacted while someone with 10 years at BNA is.

Of course there's also language that usually permits bumping rights, where that impacted 10 year agent in BNA can displace a more junior agent at another station if they wish to relocate, but your blanket statement about the company not being able to pick and choose which stations they wish to furlough from is likely not accurate.


Exactly right, can't speak for WN in general, but the airline I'm with does it that way, a 6 Year agent that I know in RDU was furloughed, while in agents in another station with less than 1 year were not furloughed, however agents from other stations with more years could have bumped into another station if they had wanted.
 
Jshank83
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:19 pm

 
Boof02671
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:27 pm

WN Ramp reduction language.

Image
download full size image from instagram
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:30 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:

You might want to re-read the contract.


I have read it, and I know it has to be in reverse seniority. What it doesn’t mention is the fact that we are going towards a system furlough process and only merely mentions an RIF per station. If it was done correctly. Then they would have gone as said in “reverse seniority” starting from the bottom to top systemwide. And stations that are over staffed and to those that aren’t due to the workforce displacement, agents shall be given a preferential bid to relocate as said by the contract.

The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.

But again, given that’s how they have done it shows that this is nothing more than a scare tactic to force us to give in to their demands. I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.


And are you part-time or full-time? In most WN contracts, the most senior part-time agent gets furloughed before the most junior full-time agent.


I am full time. Started part-time for six months then went on to full-time. And yes you are right. The most senior part timer in the system is to go first before the most junior full timer according to 555s contract.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:44 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

I have read it, and I know it has to be in reverse seniority. What it doesn’t mention is the fact that we are going towards a system furlough process and only merely mentions an RIF per station. If it was done correctly. Then they would have gone as said in “reverse seniority” starting from the bottom to top systemwide. And stations that are over staffed and to those that aren’t due to the workforce displacement, agents shall be given a preferential bid to relocate as said by the contract.

The company can’t just pick and choose which stations they want to furlough more and skip seniority.

But again, given that’s how they have done it shows that this is nothing more than a scare tactic to force us to give in to their demands. I didn’t spend 5 years just to be cut while a 2 year agent gets spared. Simply cause his station is busier than mine. That’s not how “reverse seniority” works.


And are you part-time or full-time? In most WN contracts, the most senior part-time agent gets furloughed before the most junior full-time agent.


I am full time. Started part-time for six months then went on to full-time. And yes you are right. The most senior part timer in the system is to go first before the most junior full timer according to 555s contract.

Only at the station not system wide.

Image
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:51 pm

Overwhelmingly, all workgroups vehemently are against pay cuts along with the other “permanent” concessions they are demanding. The WARN notices are nothing more than another scare tactic to force the unions hand on conceding to the company’s concessionary demands that will cause more harm long term for our membership even when the good times start rolling through again.

When all is said and done given talks break down and no other options are available, part timers go first then the bumping starts. I suspect many will not cause it’s not easy just to pack up and move. Many of us have families, children, mortgages to take care of. Being at work yesterday all day was demoralizing and a punch in the gut to all of our workgroups. While I think most of us agree that something can be worked out and this is nothing more than the company trying to scare us into conceding. I can tell you today none of the major workgroups are backing down and this news really put the nail in the coffin on whatever positive relationship our frontline group has towards headquarters and the direction of the company especially considering the rapid growth of new stations during the most difficult time in aviation history.

While still hopeful, I had to take the notice with a grain of salt and come to some realization that if in fact that it gets to that point of furloughs, I had to start think of how I can continue to provide for my family. More questions than answers are what I’ll have in my head for the holiday season. Do I take unemployment? How will I and many others keep afloat and pay our bills? Do I utilize my bumping rights if given the opportunity? That alone is a scary thought, a lot of people who need our jobs in order to provide might not be home for a while. I mean, for me I gotta think for me like “do I pack up and move and hopefully get recalled back to my station soon?” Or “should I get a crash pad and commute weekly so I can be home with my family”

A lot of questions these next couple months. Praying for my fellow co-hearts affected as well and I hope we all get through all this soon.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

And are you part-time or full-time? In most WN contracts, the most senior part-time agent gets furloughed before the most junior full-time agent.


I am full time. Started part-time for six months then went on to full-time. And yes you are right. The most senior part timer in the system is to go first before the most junior full timer according to 555s contract.

Only at the station not system wide.

Image


Correct. Thanks for clarifying. More stations are gonna be affected more or less. The most PTs are in bigger stations such as DEN, MDW, BWI. The less full timers there will be affected than say BUR or LAX.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
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Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:11 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

I am full time. Started part-time for six months then went on to full-time. And yes you are right. The most senior part timer in the system is to go first before the most junior full timer according to 555s contract.

Only at the station not system wide.

Image


Correct. Thanks for clarifying. More stations are gonna be affected more or less. The most PTs are in bigger stations such as DEN, MDW, BWI. The less full timers there will be affected than say BUR or LAX.

Also you don’t have a bumping system, it’s a Juniority system.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:01 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Only at the station not system wide.

Image


Correct. Thanks for clarifying. More stations are gonna be affected more or less. The most PTs are in bigger stations such as DEN, MDW, BWI. The less full timers there will be affected than say BUR or LAX.

Also you don’t have a bumping system, it’s a Juniority system.


It is a bumping system. If my job is being eliminated and I’m more senior than someone at another station then I can bump that certain agent in which they can bump someone at another station and so on and so forth if they wish or they can take the furlough. In retrospect this is to ensure that every station is adequately staffed. For example, I’m in LA, if there is an agent in Vegas who’s more junior to me I can bump him out of Vegas and he gets a WARN notice and has to decide if he wants to bump someone else in another station given he has enough seniority to do so or he can accept the furlough.

Given it doesn’t seem economical to keep displacing agents cause they’ll have to pay for all our moving expenses. If it does happen , most do it simply because contractually agents who are displaced have first recall rights to there previous home station before those who took the furlough.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:03 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

Correct. Thanks for clarifying. More stations are gonna be affected more or less. The most PTs are in bigger stations such as DEN, MDW, BWI. The less full timers there will be affected than say BUR or LAX.

Also you don’t have a bumping system, it’s a Juniority system.


It is a bumping system. If my job is being eliminated and I’m more senior than someone at another station then I can bump that certain agent in which they can bump someone at another station and so on and so forth if they wish or they can take the furlough. In retrospect this is to ensure that every station is adequately staffed. For example, I’m in LA, if there is an agent in Vegas who’s more junior to me I can bump him out of Vegas and he gets a WARN notice and has to decide if he wants to bump someone else in another station given he has enough seniority to do so or he can accept the furlough.

Given it doesn’t seem economical to keep displacing agents cause they’ll have to pay for all our moving expenses. If it does happen , most do it simply because contractually agents who are displaced have first recall rights to there previous home station before those who took the furlough.

Doesn’t say that in the CBA. Says bump the Junior person in the system.
 
WNagent310
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:02 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Also you don’t have a bumping system, it’s a Juniority system.


It is a bumping system. If my job is being eliminated and I’m more senior than someone at another station then I can bump that certain agent in which they can bump someone at another station and so on and so forth if they wish or they can take the furlough. In retrospect this is to ensure that every station is adequately staffed. For example, I’m in LA, if there is an agent in Vegas who’s more junior to me I can bump him out of Vegas and he gets a WARN notice and has to decide if he wants to bump someone else in another station given he has enough seniority to do so or he can accept the furlough.

Given it doesn’t seem economical to keep displacing agents cause they’ll have to pay for all our moving expenses. If it does happen , most do it simply because contractually agents who are displaced have first recall rights to there previous home station before those who took the furlough.

Doesn’t say that in the CBA. Says bump the Junior person in the system.


That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:06 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

Correct. Thanks for clarifying. More stations are gonna be affected more or less. The most PTs are in bigger stations such as DEN, MDW, BWI. The less full timers there will be affected than say BUR or LAX.

Also you don’t have a bumping system, it’s a Juniority system.


It is a bumping system. If my job is being eliminated and I’m more senior than someone at another station then I can bump that certain agent in which they can bump someone at another station and so on and so forth if they wish or they can take the furlough. In retrospect this is to ensure that every station is adequately staffed. For example, I’m in LA, if there is an agent in Vegas who’s more junior to me I can bump him out of Vegas and he gets a WARN notice and has to decide if he wants to bump someone else in another station given he has enough seniority to do so or he can accept the furlough.

Given it doesn’t seem economical to keep displacing agents cause they’ll have to pay for all our moving expenses. If it does happen , most do it simply because contractually agents who are displaced have first recall rights to there previous home station before those who took the furlough.


The most senior agent who’s been furloughed will have the option to displace the most junior agent in the system to furlough and so on. They don’t get to pick anywhere their seniority holds.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:15 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

It is a bumping system. If my job is being eliminated and I’m more senior than someone at another station then I can bump that certain agent in which they can bump someone at another station and so on and so forth if they wish or they can take the furlough. In retrospect this is to ensure that every station is adequately staffed. For example, I’m in LA, if there is an agent in Vegas who’s more junior to me I can bump him out of Vegas and he gets a WARN notice and has to decide if he wants to bump someone else in another station given he has enough seniority to do so or he can accept the furlough.

Given it doesn’t seem economical to keep displacing agents cause they’ll have to pay for all our moving expenses. If it does happen , most do it simply because contractually agents who are displaced have first recall rights to there previous home station before those who took the furlough.

Doesn’t say that in the CBA. Says bump the Junior person in the system.


That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.

Contract says junior person in the system. That’s not a bumping system that’s a juniority.
 
N383SW
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:28 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:39 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Doesn’t say that in the CBA. Says bump the Junior person in the system.


That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.

Contract says junior person in the system. That’s not a bumping system that’s a juniority.

No offense but I think they know their own contract and I’m sure they’ve been briefed by those with the correct information.
 
N383SW
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:28 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
None of the unions are going to agree to pay cut concessions. Much easier to just let the company furlough the bottom 5 percent or whatever they decide on.


WN could have done that October 1. This way management shows that senior employees are happy to see the company eat its young. Every time you see or read about the union complaining about management salaries, bonuses, or stock awards in favor of 'shared sacrifice' have a good chuckle at this hypocritical view.

The senior employees are not “willing to see the company eat its young” there are plenty of folks willing to take leave or extend the leave they are on in order to avoid any junior person being furloughed.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:59 pm

N383SW wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.

Contract says junior person in the system. That’s not a bumping system that’s a juniority.

No offense but I think they know their own contract and I’m sure they’ve been briefed by those with the correct information.


Apparently not.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:01 am

N383SW wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:

That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.

Contract says junior person in the system. That’s not a bumping system that’s a juniority.

No offense but I think they know their own contract and I’m sure they’ve been briefed by those with the correct information.

I’ve negotiated several contracts in the airlines. I’ve posted their exact language. It clearly states bump the Junior person in the system. It doesn’t say exercise your seniority and displace a junior employee where your seniority can hold.
 
airlineaddict
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:37 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:28 am

Boof02671 wrote:
N383SW wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Contract says junior person in the system. That’s not a bumping system that’s a juniority.

No offense but I think they know their own contract and I’m sure they’ve been briefed by those with the correct information.

I’ve negotiated several contracts in the airlines. I’ve posted their exact language. It clearly states bump the Junior person in the system. It doesn’t say exercise your seniority and displace a junior employee where your seniority can hold.


Interesting... Does that lead to understaffing at the station where the junior worked?
 
jayunited
Posts: 3345
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:47 am

WNagent310 wrote:
That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.



Since every airline is different I have a quick question before COVID how did Southwest handle new hires and any opening at stations system wide? I'm asking because here at UA there are certain line stations (covered under the union contract) that haven't seen a new hire (off the street) in over 30 years. United has what is known as a system bid. When an employee at one of our high seniority line stations retires or otherwise leaves the company United first goes to the system bid and the person with the highest seniority in the system with a transfer request submitted is offered the line. At United a lot of our high seniority line stations are located in Florida (any station covered by the contract), Phoenix, Las Vegas, Hawaii, Austin/ San Antonio (use to be on the list I'm not sure if they still are high seniority) and Southern California. Some of our northern line station will hire off the street because there is no one in the system bid looking for a transfer into the station.

You may ask why this is important? It is important because if Southwest has their own version of a system bid and the junior ramp person is laid off from LAS it doesn't mean you get to bump in. Say for example if LAS is a high seniority station and someone from MDW with more seniority than you has a bid in to transfer into LAS that person at MDW will be awarded LAS and you would then be offered their line at MDW. If Southwest has something like a system wide bid you may not be able to hold a high seniority (warm) station. You might have enough seniority to hold BWI, MDW, DEN or DAL because people with higher seniority than you at those stations will be awarded any openings at LAS based their seniority in the system bid. If you are being displaced but you still have a job you need to be prepared to go anywhere in the system because depending on your seniority you may not have a choice.

Also in terms of bumping rights if someone at LAS has less seniority than you but still has enough seniority to keep their job you can not bump them out of LAS simply because you have been displaced out of LAX. Again if the person has less seniority than you but has enough seniority to remain a Southwest employee you can not bump them out that is not the way bumping works at most airlines with union contracts. If that were the case people with high seniority employees would be bumping people junior to them out of stations they want to transfer into all the time.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4739
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:07 am

jayunited wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
That’s literally what I’m saying. In our WARN notices it even tells us that due to our contract we are entitled to our “bumping rights”. We are entitled to bump a more junior person at another station if our job is being eliminated. That’s bumping. Either that or take the furlough.



Since every airline is different I have a quick question before COVID how did Southwest handle new hires and any opening at stations system wide? I'm asking because here at UA there are certain line stations (covered under the union contract) that haven't seen a new hire (off the street) in over 30 years. United has what is known as a system bid. When an employee at one of our high seniority line stations retires or otherwise leaves the company United first goes to the system bid and the person with the highest seniority in the system with a transfer request submitted is offered the line. At United a lot of our high seniority line stations are located in Florida (any station covered by the contract), Phoenix, Las Vegas, Hawaii, Austin/ San Antonio (use to be on the list I'm not sure if they still are high seniority) and Southern California. Some of our northern line station will hire off the street because there is no one in the system bid looking for a transfer into the station.

You may ask why this is important? It is important because if Southwest has their own version of a system bid and the junior ramp person is laid off from LAS it doesn't mean you get to bump in. Say for example if LAS is a high seniority station and someone from MDW with more seniority than you has a bid in to transfer into LAS that person at MDW will be awarded LAS and you would then be offered their line at MDW. If Southwest has something like a system wide bid you may not be able to hold a high seniority (warm) station. You might have enough seniority to hold BWI, MDW, DEN or DAL because people with higher seniority than you at those stations will be awarded any openings at LAS based their seniority in the system bid. If you are being displaced but you still have a job you need to be prepared to go anywhere in the system because depending on your seniority you may not have a choice.

Also in terms of bumping rights if someone at LAS has less seniority than you but still has enough seniority to keep their job you can not bump them out of LAS simply because you have been displaced out of LAX. Again if the person has less seniority than you but has enough seniority to remain a Southwest employee you can not bump them out that is not the way bumping works at most airlines with union contracts. If that were the case people with high seniority employees would be bumping people junior to them out of stations they want to transfer into all the time.


In normal times there is an internal transfer book and if you’re interested in transferring to a different station you submit a bid on file and when that station has an opening they draw from the bid book before hiring locally and award it to the most senior agent with a bid on file for that station.

New station openings will open a special bid for those interested. They then award based on seniority.

As for how this furlough situation is handled, the language has been posted above. It’s literally a screenshot and everyone can read the language for themselves. An agent furloughed from their station will have an opportunity to “bump” the most junior agent in the system, or accept the furlough.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1154
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:00 am

Anyone have the furlough numbers for ATL?
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 1178
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:13 am

556 in Denver

the company plans to furlough 54 customer service agents, 13 provisioning agents and 73 ramp agents in Denver on March 15, followed by furloughs for 327 flight attendants and 89 pilots starting April 1.


https://www.google.com/search?channel=c ... fss+denver

The article also mentions planned layoffs at other Denver airlines - Frontier 400, American 109, United 913 (down from 2820 announced earlier)
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:24 pm

Furlough numbers


2,551 Ramp, Provisioning, Ops, and Cargo Agents represented by TWU 555
1,176 Customer Service Agents represented by IAM
370 CS&S and SOS Representatives represented by IAM
1,500 Flight Attendants represented by TWU 556
1,221 Pilots represented by SWAPA
6 Flight Instructors represented by TWU 557
4 Flight Sim Techs represented by IBT
374 Mechanics and Related represented by AMFA
26 Appearance Technicians represented by AMFA
3 Facilities Maintenance represented by AMFA
42 Material Specialist represented by IBT (teamsters)
 
737tanker
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:07 pm

SWAPA has said that based on the current burn rate WN has enough cash on hand to last 45 months. Furloughing the 1221 pilots will only allow WN to extend that by 3 weeks.How much is WN saving by furloughing 4 Sim technician and 6 Flight Instructors if 1221 pilots is only saving 3 weeks.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:13 pm

737tanker wrote:
SWAPA has said that based on the current burn rate WN has enough cash on hand to last 45 months. Furloughing the 1221 pilots will only allow WN to extend that by 3 weeks.How much is WN saving by furloughing 4 Sim technician and 6 Flight Instructors if 1221 pilots is only saving 3 weeks.


But it all adds up. They are non longer going to pay people their regular rates to not work. These reductions are pretty much in a ratio to somewhat correct staffing. Of course, they could just say F-it and allow the company to fall in to bankruptcy... that would be a super move for the unions. Lol.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:20 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
737tanker wrote:
SWAPA has said that based on the current burn rate WN has enough cash on hand to last 45 months. Furloughing the 1221 pilots will only allow WN to extend that by 3 weeks.How much is WN saving by furloughing 4 Sim technician and 6 Flight Instructors if 1221 pilots is only saving 3 weeks.


But it all adds up. They are non longer going to pay people their regular rates to not work. These reductions are pretty much in a ratio to somewhat correct staffing. Of course, they could just say F-it and allow the company to fall in to bankruptcy... that would be a super move for the unions. Lol.

They can take concessions outside of bankruptcy and then WN files and employees are forced to give up more.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 806
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:49 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
But it all adds up. They are non longer going to pay people their regular rates to not work. These reductions are pretty much in a ratio to somewhat correct staffing. Of course, they could just say F-it and allow the company to fall in to bankruptcy... that would be a super move for the unions. Lol.



Are they still paying 5+ weeks of vacation per year to Flight Attendants that have not flown a single hour in years and just attend recurrent once a year?

Hope the furloughed jr. FAs think about that.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 5135
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:06 am

Update from Lufthansa.

By end of December, they expect to have shed 29,000 employees, with 10,000 additional cuts forecasted in early 2021.
LH still has 27,000 too many full-time equivalent staff, according to CEO Carsten Spohr.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... am-sonntag
mercure f-wtcc

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