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trinidadeG
Posts: 324
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Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:03 am

IndiGo will Call All Employees Back To Work, Removes Leave Without Pay From January 1, will call all employees back to work, says this article.

Employees at the country's largest airline IndiGo will begin the New Year on a positive note, with CEO Ronojoy Dutta announcing plans to do away with leave without pay across the board. In a letter to employees on December 3, Dutta said the airline expects revenue to continue to pick up, and thus "we are removing Leave Without Pay across all departments from January 1, 2021."
The step was one of the many that the airline had taken to cut costs, amid falling revenue dented by the COVID-19 pandemic. The company had also let go of 10 percent of its employees.
The chief executive remarked, "While we are not yet out of the woods, we are certainly moving in the right direction."
 
N983AN
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:36 pm

Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2539
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:36 pm

N983AN wrote:
Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.

WN has asked for a 10% paycut at WN from the unionized workgroups.

And the IAM Mechanic and Related had our CBA abrogated in bankruptcy part 2 as we could never agree to the concessions asked. I was on the Negotiating Committee. Don’t let the facts get in your way.
 
N983AN
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.

WN has asked for a 10% paycut at WN from the unionized workgroups.

And the IAM Mechanic and Related had our CBA abrogated in bankruptcy part 2 as we could never agree to the concessions asked. I was on the Negotiating Committee. Don’t let the facts get in your way.


10% base rate cut in this environment is mild, especially if it will allow WN to maintain headcount. The IAM and TWU foolish for taking such a hardline. Not sure where they expect LUV to pull a rabbit up their sleeve and they appear entitled and out of touch as other workgroups have taken concessions.

Not sure what you are talking about being on a bankruptcy committee, WN aircraft maintenance is AMFA, not IAM and WN has never filed bankruptcy. Don’t see how that is germane to this discussion.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:32 pm

N983AN wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.

WN has asked for a 10% paycut at WN from the unionized workgroups.

And the IAM Mechanic and Related had our CBA abrogated in bankruptcy part 2 as we could never agree to the concessions asked. I was on the Negotiating Committee. Don’t let the facts get in your way.


10% base rate cut in this environment is mild, especially if it will allow WN to maintain headcount. The IAM and TWU foolish for taking such a hardline. Not sure where they expect LUV to pull a rabbit up their sleeve and they appear entitled and out of touch as other workgroups have taken concessions.

Not sure what you are talking about being on a bankruptcy committee, WN aircraft maintenance is AMFA, not IAM and WN has never filed bankruptcy. Don’t see how that is germane to this discussion.


Note that I despise Unions, but you should also note that WN is wanting to throw force majeure clauses on top of the 10%, and that's a big no-no. The union came back with other ways to save what they would have saved by cutting wages, and WN would not budge.

Again, it's a sad day that WN has put such a cheap price tag on morale and their precious "no furlough" title. There is no "Luv".
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2539
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:49 pm

N983AN wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.

WN has asked for a 10% paycut at WN from the unionized workgroups.

And the IAM Mechanic and Related had our CBA abrogated in bankruptcy part 2 as we could never agree to the concessions asked. I was on the Negotiating Committee. Don’t let the facts get in your way.


10% base rate cut in this environment is mild, especially if it will allow WN to maintain headcount. The IAM and TWU foolish for taking such a hardline. Not sure where they expect LUV to pull a rabbit up their sleeve and they appear entitled and out of touch as other workgroups have taken concessions.

Not sure what you are talking about being on a bankruptcy committee, WN aircraft maintenance is AMFA, not IAM and WN has never filed bankruptcy. Don’t see how that is germane to this discussion.

At US follow along. Everyone at WN is taking a hard line.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:51 pm

It's time for WN labor leaders to get serious about negotiating mitigation for those that might take a voluntary furlough/leave to save the jobs of those most junior that can't afford to be involuntarily furloughed. If they are NOT doing that then they're doing a great disservice to their membership.
 
N983AN
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:03 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
WN has asked for a 10% paycut at WN from the unionized workgroups.

And the IAM Mechanic and Related had our CBA abrogated in bankruptcy part 2 as we could never agree to the concessions asked. I was on the Negotiating Committee. Don’t let the facts get in your way.


10% base rate cut in this environment is mild, especially if it will allow WN to maintain headcount. The IAM and TWU foolish for taking such a hardline. Not sure where they expect LUV to pull a rabbit up their sleeve and they appear entitled and out of touch as other workgroups have taken concessions.

Not sure what you are talking about being on a bankruptcy committee, WN aircraft maintenance is AMFA, not IAM and WN has never filed bankruptcy. Don’t see how that is germane to this discussion.

At US follow along. Everyone at WN is taking a hard line.


Ah yes. That same hard line state of denial sure worked great where the same IAM presided over the demise of EA and TW and the tens of thousands of careers that went along with them.

Yes the 2003 AA RPA sucked, but at least resulted in preserving scope for aircraft maintenance & fleet service and nearly a decade of additional accrual in the now frozen AA DB plan. Compared to LUS who had the plan terminated and are now in the garbage IAMNPF.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3501
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:15 pm

N983AN wrote:
Really unfortunate as history of no furloughs has been a source of great pride for WN.

Have to give WN management and Gary Kelly credit for trying and stepping up to the plate taking $0 base, rest of management & admin 10% pay cut. Seems the IAM and TWU are determined to erode the history of collaboration at WN.

TWU at AA has gone along with concessions every opportunity, IAM has never met a concession they didn’t like either.


Giving Kelly credit for taking a $0 base pay? That is expected it is what every major airline executive here in the U.S. is doing. Also it is standard procedure to cut management and administrative employees pay when you are either asking the unions for a pay cut or threatening them with involuntary furloughs.

It is my understanding that even though the TWU at AA in the past went along with every concession at the end of the day the workers were still shafted by management.

As far as the IAM they have a lot of experience going along with concession just look at UA's history going back to the ESOP era. What the IAM has learned is contract language is very important, you can't give an airline (even one with a great reputation like WN) a blank check. If WN is adamant that giving up the 10% is the ONLY way to say jobs then there should be conditions in place that rewards employees sacrifice by restore employees pay as WN's financial situation improves. Union employees should not be locked into a long term COVID contract that freezes their pay while Kelly, management and administrative employees reap the financial benefits as WN financial situation improves in the coming years. I'm not sure how negotiations are progressing at WN but if they are serious the put it the contract once WN hit this level financially we will restore 4%, we hit the next benchmark another 4% just an example. But if management isn't willing to give that to employees then who know how long WN will keep the 10% they are asking employees to give up.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2539
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:20 pm

N983AN wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
N983AN wrote:

10% base rate cut in this environment is mild, especially if it will allow WN to maintain headcount. The IAM and TWU foolish for taking such a hardline. Not sure where they expect LUV to pull a rabbit up their sleeve and they appear entitled and out of touch as other workgroups have taken concessions.

Not sure what you are talking about being on a bankruptcy committee, WN aircraft maintenance is AMFA, not IAM and WN has never filed bankruptcy. Don’t see how that is germane to this discussion.

At US follow along. Everyone at WN is taking a hard line.


Ah yes. That same hard line state of denial sure worked great where the same IAM presided over the demise of EA and TW and the tens of thousands of careers that went along with them.

Yes the 2003 AA RPA sucked, but at least resulted in preserving scope for aircraft maintenance & fleet service and nearly a decade of additional accrual in the now frozen AA DB plan. Compared to LUS who had the plan terminated and are now in the garbage IAMNPF.

Dude you are so far off base.

Frank Lorenzo was banned from the industry, the IAM didn’t cause the demise of Eastern. All unions struck. That’s when union members had a backbone.

Go educate yourself. My Uncle was with EA for 29 years. I walked the picket line with him at JFK.

https://youtu.be/uRbfmLC_Nnc


https://youtu.be/mya5HUDOWX0
 
N983AN
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:49 pm

WN is fighting to survive and certainly is not looking to get in a contentious fight with their labor partners or exploit the crisis and gain additional concessions. Amazing so many seem dubious of the company yet blindly trust union leaders who are looking out for the institutional interests of the union, not the members that pay them dues. Seriously WN pays the IAM 142/TWU 555/556/557 membership, the members PAY dues to the IAM OR TWU and by extension the AFL-CIO. Both the IAM and TWU have shown through contract actions over the years, TWU with American Eagle picking up dozens of LAA mainline fleet service points post BK, IAM with CBAs at UA that drastically reduce size of PCE rank through gutting of scope.

From the founder of the AFL, Samuel Gompers:

“The worst crime against working people is a company which fails to operate at a profit."

WN doesn’t exist in a vacuum, they need to respond to market conditions and structural changes necessary post COVID.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4595
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:04 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
None of the unions are going to agree to pay cut concessions. Much easier to just let the company furlough the bottom 5 percent or whatever they decide on.


WN could have done that October 1. This way management shows that senior employees are happy to see the company eat its young. Every time you see or read about the union complaining about management salaries, bonuses, or stock awards in favor of 'shared sacrifice' have a good chuckle at this hypocritical view.


Full pay to the last day is in the protected worker's best interest, even though it may seem that it isn't. Pay and benefits take decades of negotiations to reach where they are, but the total body count required to run the operation is not so slow to respond to demand. Southwest can run their operation on paycuts indefinitely, while slowly returning pay and benefits to the workers over many years or decades. If demand returns and WN needs those 5-10% of workers back, guess what? They have to recall them. You can't run an operation without people, you can run an operation on reduced pay though. It sucks for the bottom of the list, but it really is in their best interest. It is better to be recalled at full pay, than work for an indefinite number of years underpaid.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:20 am

N983AN wrote:
WN is fighting to survive and certainly is not looking to get in a contentious fight with their labor partners or exploit the crisis and gain additional concessions. Amazing so many seem dubious of the company yet blindly trust union leaders who are looking out for the institutional interests of the union, not the members that pay them dues. Seriously WN pays the IAM 142/TWU 555/556/557 membership, the members PAY dues to the IAM OR TWU and by extension the AFL-CIO. Both the IAM and TWU have shown through contract actions over the years, TWU with American Eagle picking up dozens of LAA mainline fleet service points post BK, IAM with CBAs at UA that drastically reduce size of PCE rank through gutting of scope.

From the founder of the AFL, Samuel Gompers:

“The worst crime against working people is a company which fails to operate at a profit."

WN doesn’t exist in a vacuum, they need to respond to market conditions and structural changes necessary post COVID.


If you think WN doesn't want to exploit the COVID situation, I've got a bridge to sell...

Why won't they accept the other cost cutting measures that was thrown out there, or better yet, leave the force majeure clauses out of it. They aren't negotiating in good faith. That take it or leave it approach management has taken isn't necessary.

WN is living the Churchill quote now: "never let a good crisis go to waste"
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:23 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
But it all adds up. They are non longer going to pay people their regular rates to not work. These reductions are pretty much in a ratio to somewhat correct staffing. Of course, they could just say F-it and allow the company to fall in to bankruptcy... that would be a super move for the unions. Lol.



Are they still paying 5+ weeks of vacation per year to Flight Attendants that have not flown a single hour in years and just attend recurrent once a year?

Hope the furloughed jr. FAs think about that.


Yes, and benefits. They’ve been doing it for as long as time. Nothing contractual to prevent it. What are the furloughed jr people going to think about? That people more senior to them are doing what they’ve been doing since before they were hired?
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 827
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:29 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
But it all adds up. They are non longer going to pay people their regular rates to not work. These reductions are pretty much in a ratio to somewhat correct staffing. Of course, they could just say F-it and allow the company to fall in to bankruptcy... that would be a super move for the unions. Lol.



Are they still paying 5+ weeks of vacation per year to Flight Attendants that have not flown a single hour in years and just attend recurrent once a year?

Hope the furloughed jr. FAs think about that.


Yes, and benefits. They’ve been doing it for as long as time. Nothing contractual to prevent it. What are the furloughed jr people going to think about? That people more senior to them are doing what they’ve been doing since before they were hired?



As a WN shareholder, its appalling that this is allowed. And if I was a WN employee i'd be furious that bargaining power was used to preserve month+ paid vacation and benefits for years on end to other employees that never work.

Thats the one thing that bugs me with contracts, its tyranny of the majority and the new hires are always thrown under the bus with things like awful reserve rules and throwing them on the streets to preserve perverse practices like above.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 668
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:46 pm

When working at SWA, I never understood why they allowed people to remain on benefits who hardly put anytime in. Might have made sense when health insurance was cheap but family coverage costs a company about $21,000 per year now.
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    jetmatt777
    Posts: 4595
    Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:03 pm

    CobaltScar wrote:
    Flflyer83 wrote:
    CobaltScar wrote:


    Are they still paying 5+ weeks of vacation per year to Flight Attendants that have not flown a single hour in years and just attend recurrent once a year?

    Hope the furloughed jr. FAs think about that.


    Yes, and benefits. They’ve been doing it for as long as time. Nothing contractual to prevent it. What are the furloughed jr people going to think about? That people more senior to them are doing what they’ve been doing since before they were hired?



    As a WN shareholder, its appalling that this is allowed. And if I was a WN employee i'd be furious that bargaining power was used to preserve month+ paid vacation and benefits for years on end to other employees that never work.

    Thats the one thing that bugs me with contracts, its tyranny of the majority and the new hires are always thrown under the bus with things like awful reserve rules and throwing them on the streets to preserve perverse practices like above.


    Contracts are written by the company and union. If the company wasn't okay with that practice, they should not have agreed to have it in the contract that was presented for a vote. In a weird way, it is probably insignificant to the bottom line. Those hours are being traded away to junior employees that fly at a much lower pay rate. That could be enough in payroll savings over the year to cancel out the cost of giving them their health insurance and vacation time. It would cost the company far more if they were paid their full allotment of hours.
     
    CobaltScar
    Posts: 827
    Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:34 pm

    jetmatt777 wrote:
    CobaltScar wrote:
    Flflyer83 wrote:

    Yes, and benefits. They’ve been doing it for as long as time. Nothing contractual to prevent it. What are the furloughed jr people going to think about? That people more senior to them are doing what they’ve been doing since before they were hired?



    As a WN shareholder, its appalling that this is allowed. And if I was a WN employee i'd be furious that bargaining power was used to preserve month+ paid vacation and benefits for years on end to other employees that never work.

    Thats the one thing that bugs me with contracts, its tyranny of the majority and the new hires are always thrown under the bus with things like awful reserve rules and throwing them on the streets to preserve perverse practices like above.


    Contracts are written by the company and union. If the company wasn't okay with that practice, they should not have agreed to have it in the contract that was presented for a vote. In a weird way, it is probably insignificant to the bottom line. Those hours are being traded away to junior employees that fly at a much lower pay rate. That could be enough in payroll savings over the year to cancel out the cost of giving them their health insurance and vacation time. It would cost the company far more if they were paid their full allotment of hours.


    I doubt very much those trips are going to jr. crew members. Its other senior (topped out pay) friends of these people who are doing it, including bidding their schedules every month for them. The people who have not flown in years but stay with the company for the free month of paid vacation every year and free benefits are totally hands off and probably have not even looked at their schedules, much less actually bid them, in years.

    Basically Southwest has a whole cadre of senior flight attendants on their seniority list that do nothing for the company but drain resources and allow someone else to control their bidding, schedules and trips which in turn breaches the seniority of all the other working flight attendants who may happen to be in between the seniority of the phantom FA and his or her buddies that use them as a prime trip generating resource.
     
    Oilman
    Posts: 111
    Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:10 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:50 am

    How did the situation with some FA’s not working but getting benefits come to be?
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 668
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:45 am

    You'd have to have a rather large wage differential to cover those benefit costs. And if one of those non-workers needs a heart transplant or spends 4 months in an ICU, SWA's insurance premiums for all their employees goes up. Health insurers aren't in the business to lose money. You want as few employees on your plan as possible -
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      Josh76040
      Posts: 33
      Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 11:02 am

      Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

      Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:27 am

      This is, sadly, just the beginning for Southwest employees. I hope I’m wrong but I see more furloughs, especially since Herb ain’t around anymore. This management recognizes Southwest employees’ contracts and benefits, in many ways, exceed market rate, and are (in their opinion) long overdue for a “reset.” That reset will either come in the form of deep concessions now...which will also result in a smaller workforce...or bankruptcy later. And, as others have said, deep concessions now don’t preclude bankruptcy later.
       
      Flflyer83
      Posts: 160
      Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

      Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

      Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:44 am

      CobaltScar wrote:
      I doubt very much those trips are going to jr. crew members. Its other senior (topped out pay) friends of these people who are doing it, including bidding their schedules every month for them. The people who have not flown in years but stay with the company for the free month of paid vacation every year and free benefits are totally hands off and probably have not even looked at their schedules, much less actually bid them, in years.

      Basically Southwest has a whole cadre of senior flight attendants on their seniority list that do nothing for the company but drain resources and allow someone else to control their bidding, schedules and trips which in turn breaches the seniority of all the other working flight attendants who may happen to be in between the seniority of the phantom FA and his or her buddies that use them as a prime trip generating resource.


      There are just as many junior people that do it as there are senior people. There are people that received furlough notice that give away their entire schedule.
       
      MohawkWeekend
      Posts: 668
      Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

      Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

      Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:53 am

      I imagine SWA offered this benefit to rampers and FA when these positions didn't pay much. Most employees then were young and not planning a long career. The flexiblity to work when you wanted (trading off shifts) was a nice perk that didn't cost the company alot of money As we used to say in Personnel no good deed goes unpunished. Now it does cost the company alot to carry non-workers on the payroll. You would think the Unions would offer this up for elimination if concessions were to be made. IBT most represented employees who show up to work all the time would agree that it could go. Beats a pay cut.
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        Chemist
        Posts: 911
        Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:15 am

        IMHO unions are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they have helped remove poor working conditions and helped raise wages in the US. But on the other hand, they have promoted adversarial relationships between labor and management, and have strong-armed management to accept ridiculous working rules and limited corporate flexibility. Look only to the Big Three (now Big Two) auto companies in the US and what has happened to them due to union costs (yes management agreed to those contracts, under duress of massive work stoppage and losses). And now the US auto makers are not major players in the US except rising Tesla which is still nonunionized.

        At the airlines, the unions are throwing the less senior members under the bus so that more senior members can continue to bring in full salaries, because "we wouldn't want to be all in this together and sacrifice a bit for the greater good for a while". It's sad that a great airline (WN), under tremendous pressure due to a situation not of their fault (COVID), is now likely to end up with serious labor strife as they try to not bleed money. And on these boards, you see the typical "management is trying to take advantage of us" when it seems pretty clear that WN has always tried to be good to its employees, but when a black swan event occurs, the adversarial nature raises up in defiance. Sad and more than a little bit pathetic.
         
        bennett123
        Posts: 10815
        Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:03 am

        I see no reason to think that relations would be less adversarial without Unions. Unless you mean it would be my way or the highway.

        Furthermore with business pushing for minimal standards in any area that cost money and less organised push back from workers, laws in other areas would be different.
         
        FixemFlyem
        Posts: 10
        Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:33 pm

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:07 am

        Josh76040 wrote:
        This is, sadly, just the beginning for Southwest employees. I hope I’m wrong but I see more furloughs, especially since Herb ain’t around anymore. This management recognizes Southwest employees’ contracts and benefits, in many ways, exceed market rate, and are (in their opinion) long overdue for a “reset.” That reset will either come in the form of deep concessions now...which will also result in a smaller workforce...or bankruptcy later. And, as others have said, deep concessions now don’t preclude bankruptcy later.



        It’s entertaining to see people comment on how one of the most profitable airlines in history is going to be bankrupt in short order.
        fefe
         
        737tanker
        Posts: 400
        Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:14 am

        Oilman wrote:
        How did the situation with some FA’s not working but getting benefits come to be?

        It’s not like WN is not assigning work to these FAs. They are bidding and holding a line that their seniority allows. Then they are giving those trips away to other FAs. So yes you have FAs collecting benefits and “not working” but you have other FAs working more with WN putting out the same payroll. You can only prevent this by not allowing employees to give away work. The same thing can be done on the Pilot’s side except that the pilots are required to maintain their landing currency, so in theory a pilot could work only 1 day every 90 days, or 7 days in a year counting training. The only time that it cost WN when FAs or Pilots aren’t working is when that person is not working due to being sick or on vacation. It doesn’t cost any extra when trips are given away.
         
        777Mech
        Posts: 1213
        Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:21 am

        Chemist wrote:
        IMHO unions are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they have helped remove poor working conditions and helped raise wages in the US. But on the other hand, they have promoted adversarial relationships between labor and management, and have strong-armed management to accept ridiculous working rules and limited corporate flexibility. Look only to the Big Three (now Big Two) auto companies in the US and what has happened to them due to union costs (yes management agreed to those contracts, under duress of massive work stoppage and losses). And now the US auto makers are not major players in the US except rising Tesla which is still nonunionized.

        At the airlines, the unions are throwing the less senior members under the bus so that more senior members can continue to bring in full salaries, because "we wouldn't want to be all in this together and sacrifice a bit for the greater good for a while". It's sad that a great airline (WN), under tremendous pressure due to a situation not of their fault (COVID), is now likely to end up with serious labor strife as they try to not bleed money. And on these boards, you see the typical "management is trying to take advantage of us" when it seems pretty clear that WN has always tried to be good to its employees, but when a black swan event occurs, the adversarial nature raises up in defiance. Sad and more than a little bit pathetic.


        Strong armed? The company agreed to a contract. They need to abide by it.

        When WN was making money hand over fist, they weren't paying employees above their contractual rate, so why should the employees get hosed when there is a downturn in the middle of a contract?

        There is more of a history of management screwing over labor than labor screwing management. Period.
         
        User avatar
        par13del
        Posts: 10819
        Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:22 pm

        777Mech wrote:
        Strong armed? The company agreed to a contract. They need to abide by it.

        When WN was making money hand over fist, they weren't paying employees above their contractual rate, so why should the employees get hosed when there is a downturn in the middle of a contract?

        I thought WN like the big 3 were paying bonus to staff when they were making money, my misconception.
        Interesting.
         
        MohawkWeekend
        Posts: 668
        Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

        Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

        Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:36 pm

        737tanker wrote:
        Oilman wrote:
        How did the situation with some FA’s not working but getting benefits come to be?

        It’s not like WN is not assigning work to these FAs. They are bidding and holding a line that their seniority allows. Then they are giving those trips away to other FAs. So yes you have FAs collecting benefits and “not working” but you have other FAs working more with WN putting out the same payroll. You can only prevent this by not allowing employees to give away work. The same thing can be done on the Pilot’s side except that the pilots are required to maintain their landing currency, so in theory a pilot could work only 1 day every 90 days, or 7 days in a year counting training. The only time that it cost WN when FAs or Pilots aren’t working is when that person is not working due to being sick or on vacation. It doesn’t cost any extra when trips are given away.


        I never had a problem with trading a shift or 2 but there should be a limit. It certainly does cost SWA money to give benefits and vacation pay to non-workers. I finished my career in HR mgt for a unionized company, it costs a lot for those benefits. Remember your not only covering the non-worker, your covering their family too.
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          Boof02671
          Posts: 2539
          Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

          Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

          Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:49 pm

          At AA each contract has a minimum of hours you have to work each month the to keep your benefits and accrue suck and vacation time. There are no more ghost employees
           
          CobaltScar
          Posts: 827
          Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

          Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

          Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:28 pm

          Boof02671 wrote:
          At AA each contract has a minimum of hours you have to work each month the to keep your benefits and accrue suck and vacation time. There are no more ghost employees



          As much as i'd love to become a ghost employee and run that racket, its not good for a company. At WN its just more absurd because not only are these ghost employees getting benefits, they still get OVER A MONTH worth of paid vacation EACH YEAR, for doing nothing- for not working even a single hour all year.
           
          jetmatt777
          Posts: 4595
          Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

          Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

          Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:21 pm

          CobaltScar wrote:
          Boof02671 wrote:
          At AA each contract has a minimum of hours you have to work each month the to keep your benefits and accrue suck and vacation time. There are no more ghost employees



          As much as i'd love to become a ghost employee and run that racket, its not good for a company. At WN its just more absurd because not only are these ghost employees getting benefits, they still get OVER A MONTH worth of paid vacation EACH YEAR, for doing nothing- for not working even a single hour all year.


          So, why hasn't the company over the past 50 years tried to widdle away at that benefit? Clearly, it has not been a major priority at the negotiation table. It's always easy for this site to blame the union workers, when contracts are in fact two-way and agreed to by the company. If my contract had a stipulation that I could trade away every shift, come in for my annual training, and get all of my vacation and sick time it would be "greedy" for me to exercise that contractually defined benefit?

          Who cares? The airline agreed to it. The union agreed to it. Do you complain about the color of your neighbors car when the husband and wife both agreed it was okay to them when they bought it?
           
          777Mech
          Posts: 1213
          Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

          Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

          Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:41 pm

          par13del wrote:
          777Mech wrote:
          Strong armed? The company agreed to a contract. They need to abide by it.

          When WN was making money hand over fist, they weren't paying employees above their contractual rate, so why should the employees get hosed when there is a downturn in the middle of a contract?

          I thought WN like the big 3 were paying bonus to staff when they were making money, my misconception.
          Interesting.


          They do, however it is still a contractual obligation to do so. WN isn't coming out and saying, hey, instead of 10%, we'll give you 20% because we knocked it out of the park.

          No, WN pays the minimal amount to satisfy the contract and that's that. Now, we things hit the fan, they want a reduction in pay. That's not how it works.

          Use the RIF that's in the contract and keep it moving.
           
          MohawkWeekend
          Posts: 668
          Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

          Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

          Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:10 pm

          Post deleted by author
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            MIflyer12
            Posts: 9620
            Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

            Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

            Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:26 pm

            MohawkWeekend wrote:
            Some might argue that without CARES funding (which for some reason favored airline employees more than other US Workers), we might not be having this discussion. The US Bankruptcy Court and the lawyers would be.


            Absence of that first round of CARES Act payroll support grant/loan wouldn't have sent WN into Ch 11 by now. They would be sitting on more debt. They would have initiated headcount reduction discussions earlier. They started with the best balance sheet. They started with among the best margins.

            777Mech is right. WN can't unilaterally change pay rates of unionized employees. It can use defined RIF mechanisms per contracts to cut staff.
             
            ScottB
            Posts: 7417
            Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

            Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

            Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:37 pm

            777Mech wrote:
            WN pays the minimal amount to satisfy the contract and that's that. Now, we things hit the fan, they want a reduction in pay. That's not how it works.

            Use the RIF that's in the contract and keep it moving.


            That's what they're allowed to do unilaterally. I can't blame management for offering up pay cuts to save jobs. That said, if I were a union negotiator, I'd insist on snapbacks in the case of future furloughs, management pay increases, positive cash flow for the company, stock buybacks, profitability, etc. I'd also insist on the company making up for the foregone pay after it returns to profitability.
             
            MohawkWeekend
            Posts: 668
            Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

            Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

            Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:43 pm

            Scott B - I think one of the US automakers did exactly that earlier this year. Probably helped solidify employee relations.
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              JayinKitsap
              Posts: 2510
              Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:05 pm

              The simple fact is if WN is flying only half of the flights it did last year, staffing needs to be around half of last year also for the financials to even have a prayer's chance of working and the company survives. WN should be looking 6 months to a year out, needs to be at the right target within a year.

              I fear every airline will be taking deep, deep cuts to try and survive until traffic returns to even 80% of 2019 levels.
               
              777Mech
              Posts: 1213
              Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:29 pm

              ScottB wrote:
              777Mech wrote:
              WN pays the minimal amount to satisfy the contract and that's that. Now, we things hit the fan, they want a reduction in pay. That's not how it works.

              Use the RIF that's in the contract and keep it moving.


              That's what they're allowed to do unilaterally. I can't blame management for offering up pay cuts to save jobs. That said, if I were a union negotiator, I'd insist on snapbacks in the case of future furloughs, management pay increases, positive cash flow for the company, stock buybacks, profitability, etc. I'd also insist on the company making up for the foregone pay after it returns to profitability.


              That would be fine, but WN isn't having none of that. They're going the complete opposite direction and insisting on putting force majeure clauses in the contract.
               
              jayunited
              Posts: 3501
              Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:41 pm

              JayinKitsap wrote:
              The simple fact is if WN is flying only half of the flights it did last year, staffing needs to be around half of last year also for the financials to even have a prayer's chance of working and the company survives. WN should be looking 6 months to a year out, needs to be at the right target within a year.

              I fear every airline will be taking deep, deep cuts to try and survive until traffic returns to even 80% of 2019 levels.



              WN will survive this, there are airlines in far worse financial shape than WN. If WN doesn't survive this it is only because the entire US aviation industry has collapsed.

              Having said that I agree with ScottB there needs to be some type of snapback added to the contract that rewards employees by restoring their pay as the companies financial situation improves. If the union isn't able to get that amendment added to the contract when can employees expect to be made whole once this crisis is behind WN? I hope they figure this out because once employee relations are destroyed the entire vibe of the airline changes.

              I keep using United as my example, Oscar Munoz gave it his all trying to improve employee relations in the end he fell short of the goal post, the damage was just too severe. Don't get me wrong he made progress but once a company destroys employee relations it can take decades to restore that trust.

              WN management needs to look at the bigger picture and avoid the mistakes other airlines have made. It isn't just on the unions to simply accept the companies demands the company has to make some overtures to the workers as well. The its my way or the highway is the quickest way to destroy all the goodwill management has spent the last 50 years establishing with their employees.
               
              User avatar
              par13del
              Posts: 10819
              Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:59 am

              jayunited wrote:
              Having said that I agree with ScottB there needs to be some type of snapback added to the contract that rewards employees by restoring their pay as the companies financial situation improves. If the union isn't able to get that amendment added to the contract when can employees expect to be made whole once this crisis is behind WN? I hope they figure this out because once employee relations are destroyed the entire vibe of the airline changes.

              Correct me if I am wrong, but did the big 4 not get those give backs with promise of restoration when things got better and all that was wiped out when one by one they entered Chpt.11?
              To ask it another way, has there ever been any major company who got concessions from unions and restored them when things got better?
               
              jayunited
              Posts: 3501
              Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:22 am

              par13del wrote:
              jayunited wrote:
              Having said that I agree with ScottB there needs to be some type of snapback added to the contract that rewards employees by restoring their pay as the companies financial situation improves. If the union isn't able to get that amendment added to the contract when can employees expect to be made whole once this crisis is behind WN? I hope they figure this out because once employee relations are destroyed the entire vibe of the airline changes.

              Correct me if I am wrong, but did the big 4 not get those give backs with promise of restoration when things got better and all that was wiped out when one by one they entered Chpt.11?
              To ask it another way, has there ever been any major company who got concessions from unions and restored them when things got better?


              There was never any promise or amendment added to the contract for restoration once the airline was on a stable financial footing.

              What I'm arguing for is for WN to avoid the pitfalls made by other carriers to learn from others mistakes. If WN management believes a 10% pay cut is the only answer then they should have no problem giving employees assurances in writing that when WN's financial situation improves they will restore employees pay. If there is one way to blow up employee relations it would be for employees to give up the 10% only to watch Kelly and other management and administrative employees reap the benefits as WN's financial situation improves while WN has no obligation to restore employees pay.

              That means when contract negotiation come around for WN employees they would be negotiating to get the 10% back they gave up not an actual raise. We have seen this exact situation play out at both United and American and it destroys employee relations,. I just want to see WN avoid this mistake, by giving the employees some type of assurance that as the companies financial position improves management will restore the 10% they are asking employees to give up.
               
              User avatar
              par13del
              Posts: 10819
              Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:06 pm

              So to be clear, when such was done at the big 4 prior the unions gave give back and did not have them formalized in writing?
              I find that strange, especially in regards to unions.
              However, my main point is that this was tried before, UA unions even got a board member but history has been that in the past this type approach did not work, so why would we believe that it will work now?
               
              737tanker
              Posts: 400
              Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:44 pm

              CobaltScar wrote:
              Boof02671 wrote:
              At AA each contract has a minimum of hours you have to work each month the to keep your benefits and accrue suck and vacation time. There are no more ghost employees



              As much as i'd love to become a ghost employee and run that racket, its not good for a company. At WN its just more absurd because not only are these ghost employees getting benefits, they still get OVER A MONTH worth of paid vacation EACH YEAR, for doing nothing- for not working even a single hour all year.

              If WN changed the rules and didn't allow work to be given away they would still be paying the same benefits and vacation. If they fired all the ghost employees they will still be paying the same benefits because they would have to hire new employees to do the work that the ghost employees are assigned. That's because the work assigned to the ghost employees cant' be put into the bid packages of the remaining employees. Remember WN doesn't put out did lines with no work. The only way that the WN ghost employees end up with no work is by finding othe employees who are willing to work extra.
               
              bob75013
              Posts: 1088
              Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:06 pm

              MIflyer12 wrote:
              MohawkWeekend wrote:
              Some might argue that without CARES funding (which for some reason favored airline employees more than other US Workers), we might not be having this discussion. The US Bankruptcy Court and the lawyers would be.


              Absence of that first round of CARES Act payroll support grant/loan wouldn't have sent WN into Ch 11 by now. They would be sitting on more debt. They would have initiated headcount reduction discussions earlier. They started with the best balance sheet. They started with among the best margins.

              777Mech is right. WN can't unilaterally change pay rates of unionized employees. It can use defined RIF mechanisms per contracts to cut staff.


              Ahh, so you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable for the unions to eat their young?
               
              777Mech
              Posts: 1213
              Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:05 pm

              bob75013 wrote:
              MIflyer12 wrote:
              MohawkWeekend wrote:
              Some might argue that without CARES funding (which for some reason favored airline employees more than other US Workers), we might not be having this discussion. The US Bankruptcy Court and the lawyers would be.


              Absence of that first round of CARES Act payroll support grant/loan wouldn't have sent WN into Ch 11 by now. They would be sitting on more debt. They would have initiated headcount reduction discussions earlier. They started with the best balance sheet. They started with among the best margins.

              777Mech is right. WN can't unilaterally change pay rates of unionized employees. It can use defined RIF mechanisms per contracts to cut staff.


              Ahh, so you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable for the unions to eat their young?


              That's how seniority works, yes. Don't forget, those "young" you speak of voted for this current contract with the RIF language.

              Lastly, anyone working in commercial aviation with at least a half a brain cell knows how cyclical the industry is, even if covid didn't exist. You have to be prepared.
               
              CobaltScar
              Posts: 827
              Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:40 pm

              737tanker wrote:
              CobaltScar wrote:
              Boof02671 wrote:
              At AA each contract has a minimum of hours you have to work each month the to keep your benefits and accrue suck and vacation time. There are no more ghost employees



              As much as i'd love to become a ghost employee and run that racket, its not good for a company. At WN its just more absurd because not only are these ghost employees getting benefits, they still get OVER A MONTH worth of paid vacation EACH YEAR, for doing nothing- for not working even a single hour all year.

              If WN changed the rules and didn't allow work to be given away they would still be paying the same benefits and vacation. If they fired all the ghost employees they will still be paying the same benefits because they would have to hire new employees to do the work that the ghost employees are assigned. That's because the work assigned to the ghost employees cant' be put into the bid packages of the remaining employees. Remember WN doesn't put out did lines with no work. The only way that the WN ghost employees end up with no work is by finding othe employees who are willing to work extra.


              Slap minimum and maximum hours for each month and that would shake out all the ghost employees off the vacation and health benefit rolls, because they have no intention of flying again.

              The slack is more than made up by everyone working average hours each month instead of some zero and some 160+. Bonus is that if flying picks up you hire new people at half the cost of ghost employees and their senior friends taking bidding and taking their productive trips allowing them to fly insane hours each month.
               
              Flflyer83
              Posts: 160
              Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:12 pm

              CobaltScar wrote:

              Slap minimum and maximum hours for each month and that would shake out all the ghost employees off the vacation and health benefit rolls, because they have no intention of flying again.

              The slack is more than made up by everyone working average hours each month instead of some zero and some 160+. Bonus is that if flying picks up you hire new people at half the cost of ghost employees and their senior friends taking bidding and taking their productive trips allowing them to fly insane hours each month.


              Except it is part of a contract, so there is no “slapping” anything on. I will guarantee you, minimums, nor maximums, will pass in any contract for that workgroup. Some of them fly 180-200/month.
               
              jayunited
              Posts: 3501
              Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

              Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

              Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:51 pm

              par13del wrote:
              So to be clear, when such was done at the big 4 prior the unions gave give back and did not have them formalized in writing?
              I find that strange, especially in regards to unions.
              However, my main point is that this was tried before, UA unions even got a board member but history has been that in the past this type approach did not work, so why would we believe that it will work now?



              This is where you are wrong it was never tried, the unions just folded to in an attempt to save jobs (but of course things were different back then) airlines were either in bankruptcy court or threatening to file bankruptcy. So either was it was going to be a loose, loose situation, for union employees. You either gave the company a little bit of what it wanted or the company goes to court and the judge could then decided to get the company 100% of what it wanted.

              That is not the situation WN finds itself in today, there is no threat of WN going into bankruptcy. This is not a survive or die situation for WN, there is no reason for WN management to take a such a hardline approach of my way or the highway in this situation. United which came to an agreement with the pilots union to avoid furloughs gave the pilots a similar amendment, in exchange for shared sacrifice on the part of the pilots, once United hits certain agree upon financial benchmarks the pilots will be rewarded with a raise. That language is now in their contract as a result of this agreement. Why can't WN do the same thing for all of their employees, why not put it in writing that once WN hits certain financial benchmarks the airline will then restore employees pay. If WN really wants to save employee relations you can't have Kelly, management and the administrative staff rewarded as the airlines finances improve while telling union employees we will see you when contract negotiations come around. I've been at United for 25 years take from someone who has seen this first hand, if it is Kelly's intention to keep the 10% only to force the unions to have to first wait for a new contract and then second have them negotiate just to get the 10% back. That action will change WN forever and the people who will suffer the most will be WN's customers.

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