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MohawkWeekend
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:12 am

How about you get 10% of your pay in newly issued stock?? Just do it for set period and then replace with wages when things get better.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    737tanker
    Posts: 398
    Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:28 pm

    bob75013 wrote:
    MIflyer12 wrote:
    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Some might argue that without CARES funding (which for some reason favored airline employees more than other US Workers), we might not be having this discussion. The US Bankruptcy Court and the lawyers would be.


    Absence of that first round of CARES Act payroll support grant/loan wouldn't have sent WN into Ch 11 by now. They would be sitting on more debt. They would have initiated headcount reduction discussions earlier. They started with the best balance sheet. They started with among the best margins.

    777Mech is right. WN can't unilaterally change pay rates of unionized employees. It can use defined RIF mechanisms per contracts to cut staff.


    Ahh, so you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable for the unions to eat their young?

    The Unions have been in negotiations with WN Management to prevent the furloughs and have already made concessions to their work rules. For example the agreed to concessions by the WN Pilots have saved WN $216.1 million for 2020 and are projected to save $168.3 million in 2021 without furloughs. Additionally earlier this year the WN Pilots modified their CBA to allow cargo only flights in order to increase revenue for WN, a modification that while WN asked for they have yet to use.
     
    av8tiongeek
    Posts: 81
    Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:23 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:13 pm

    WN management issued 120-day (not 60) WARN notices to flight attendants. Clearly, the company is not in dire straits otherwise they would have given a 60-day notice. The notices were issued while management told employees they were still working with the unions. The move was a last ditch effort to push congress to pass a stimulus package, which negates the request for concessions...unless you accepted an agreement with the force majeure clause and then who knows what would happen. Management's request amounts to approximately 6 weeks of cash on top of the four years (based on current cash burn) already in the piggy bank. WN took $2.3B in grants the first round and if they take at least that much, or more, this go around then the $1B they need to save in 2021 should be satisfied. One would think. I think the unions have done a great job at protecting jobs and maintaining the integrity of their contracts.
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 832
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:44 pm

    av8tiongeek wrote:
    WN management issued 120-day (not 60) WARN notices to flight attendants. Clearly, the company is not in dire straits otherwise they would have given a 60-day notice. The notices were issued while management told employees they were still working with the unions. The move was a last ditch effort to push congress to pass a stimulus package, which negates the request for concessions...unless you accepted an agreement with the force majeure clause and then who knows what would happen. Management's request amounts to approximately 6 weeks of cash on top of the four years (based on current cash burn) already in the piggy bank. WN took $2.3B in grants the first round and if they take at least that much, or more, this go around then the $1B they need to save in 2021 should be satisfied. One would think. I think the unions have done a great job at protecting jobs and maintaining the integrity of their contracts.



    Although I agree with most of this post, the entire industry is in dire straights. (not the band) Every airline is clearly in survival mode and cannot continue to exist in the current environment. A race to the bottom or bleeding the longest is not a prudent business plan. Just because the Southwest management issued 120 day notices to the FAs does not mean they are doing OK. I doubt the industry will ever look like it did a year ago.
     
    Boof02671
    Posts: 2492
    Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:49 pm

    The mechanics and cleaners CBAs have a no layoff due to force majuere as long as work is outsourced. WN outsourced the majority of their heavy maintenance and have a three day expedited arbitration on the layoffs scheduled this month. AMFA won the same issue at AS.
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 832
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:12 pm

    Boof02671 wrote:
    The mechanics and cleaners CBAs have a no layoff due to force majuere as long as work is outsourced. WN outsourced the majority of their heavy maintenance and have a three day expedited arbitration on the layoffs scheduled this month. AMFA won the same issue at AS.


    Didn't southwest bring their heavy maintenance back in-house a few years back?
     
    Boof02671
    Posts: 2492
    Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:14 pm

    kiowa wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    The mechanics and cleaners CBAs have a no layoff due to force majuere as long as work is outsourced. WN outsourced the majority of their heavy maintenance and have a three day expedited arbitration on the layoffs scheduled this month. AMFA won the same issue at AS.


    Didn't southwest bring their heavy maintenance back in-house a few years back?

    Oh heck no. The new CBA they moved eight domestic MRO (outsourced) lines to Aeroman in San Salvador. WN only has four lines of heavy maintenance in-house. They outsource about 80% of their heavy maintenance. They also outsource ETOPS checks in HI besides lots of other things.
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 832
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:17 pm

    Boof02671 wrote:
    kiowa wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    The mechanics and cleaners CBAs have a no layoff due to force majuere as long as work is outsourced. WN outsourced the majority of their heavy maintenance and have a three day expedited arbitration on the layoffs scheduled this month. AMFA won the same issue at AS.


    Didn't southwest bring their heavy maintenance back in-house a few years back?

    Oh heck no. The new CBA they moved eight domestic MRO (outsourced) lines to Aeroman in San Salvador. WN only has four lines of heavy maintenance in-house. They outsource about 80% of their heavy maintenance. They also outsource ETOPS checks in HI besides lots of other things.


    Do they have any of their own mechanics in Hawaii? Wouldn't they be doing the ETOPS checks? That is one check that I would make sure was done internally both for safety and to retain FAA ETOPS certification.
     
    Boof02671
    Posts: 2492
    Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:19 pm

    kiowa wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    kiowa wrote:

    Didn't southwest bring their heavy maintenance back in-house a few years back?

    Oh heck no. The new CBA they moved eight domestic MRO (outsourced) lines to Aeroman in San Salvador. WN only has four lines of heavy maintenance in-house. They outsource about 80% of their heavy maintenance. They also outsource ETOPS checks in HI besides lots of other things.


    Do they have any of their own mechanics in Hawaii? Wouldn't they be doing the ETOPS checks? That is one check that I would make sure was done internally both for safety and to retain FAA ETOPS certification.

    AMFA said they were going to sue, never did and never obtained the work in their new contract. And no they never put their own maintenance there.

    http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unio ... 20Airlines
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 832
    Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:45 pm

    Boof02671 wrote:
    kiowa wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    Oh heck no. The new CBA they moved eight domestic MRO (outsourced) lines to Aeroman in San Salvador. WN only has four lines of heavy maintenance in-house. They outsource about 80% of their heavy maintenance. They also outsource ETOPS checks in HI besides lots of other things.


    Do they have any of their own mechanics in Hawaii? Wouldn't they be doing the ETOPS checks? That is one check that I would make sure was done internally both for safety and to retain FAA ETOPS certification.

    AMFA said they were going to sue, never did and never obtained the work in their new contract. And no they never put their own maintenance there.

    http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unio ... 20Airlines



    Interesting article. When AMFA said they were going to do something and did not follow through, they lost quite a bit of credibility for their next threat.
     
    WNagent310
    Posts: 81
    Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:09 am

    Coming straight from the top. All WN employees received emails stating with the passage of the PSP extension COVID-19 relief bill, all pay cut and furlough talks are suspended for 2021. Great news for all WN employees and to our unions who held out strong amidst all the pressure!! Let the recovery begin!!
     
    737tanker
    Posts: 398
    Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:59 pm

    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.
     
    Silver1SWA
    Posts: 4744
    Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:38 pm

    737tanker wrote:
    Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    Wow, that’s quite the spin there.
    ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
     
    BrazilExPat
    Posts: 18
    Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:50 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:12 am

    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    The “SWAG” program is not cancelled. The fact is the program never really increased attendance at WN. Also, to call it a gift card program is rather weird. Visa gift cards were only one of the thousands of things you could redeem with your attendance points. Through December, we still have the attendance points. I think it’s actually a kudos to WN to cancel the attendance part of the program if it actually did nothing to help attendance. They also stated that points would be given in the future, so to call it a cancellation is capricious.
     
    747cllipper747
    Posts: 11
    Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:30 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:53 am

    Guess All WARN notices to be cancelled now ... at least temporarily.
     
    Silver1SWA
    Posts: 4744
    Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:03 am

    BrazilExPat wrote:
    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    The “SWAG” program is not cancelled. The fact is the program never really increased attendance at WN. Also, to call it a gift card program is rather weird. Visa gift cards were only one of the thousands of things you could redeem with your attendance points. Through December, we still have the attendance points. I think it’s actually a kudos to WN to cancel the attendance part of the program if it actually did nothing to help attendance. They also stated that points would be given in the future, so to call it a cancellation is capricious.


    Gift cards were temporarily made unavailable to stop the run on them caused by a misunderstanding that the program was going away entirely and that all points needed to be spent by the end of the year or they’d be lost forever. I think that’s what they were referring to.
    ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
     
    737max8
    Posts: 706
    Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:22 am

    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    1. What if the timing was to get congress to do something? There is always more to the story...

    2. Gift cards were made unavailable for a couple days because employees were cashing out hundreds of thousands of points due to a misunderstanding, causing the company a ton of money. They were quickly put back BEFORE Christmas, including instant, digital gift cards.

    I am thankful GK has put WN in such a position, that even with money that will only last until summer by my calculations, will allow WN to avoid zero pay cuts or furloughs through the worst times in aviation HISTORY. I didn't see anyone bashing GK when he gave them record profit sharing for years.
    The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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    kiowa
    Posts: 832
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:46 am

    737max8 wrote:
    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    1. What if the timing was to get congress to do something? There is always more to the story...

    2. Gift cards were made unavailable for a couple days because employees were cashing out hundreds of thousands of points due to a misunderstanding, causing the company a ton of money. They were quickly put back BEFORE Christmas, including instant, digital gift cards.

    I am thankful GK has put WN in such a position, that even with money that will only last until summer by my calculations, will allow WN to avoid zero pay cuts or furloughs through the worst times in aviation HISTORY. I didn't see anyone bashing GK when he gave them record profit sharing for years.


    Employees earn profit sharing. GK does not “give” money to workers.
     
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    EA CO AS
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:07 am

    WNagent310 wrote:
    Coming straight from the top. All WN employees received emails stating with the passage of the PSP extension COVID-19 relief bill, all pay cut and furlough talks are suspended for 2021. Great news for all WN employees and to our unions who held out strong amidst all the pressure!! Let the recovery begin!!


    While I’m glad no one at WN will be furloughed, you’re kidding yourself if you think “holding out” or acts by the unions had anything to do with this. The government rode in to the rescue, nothing more, and if the recovery isn’t robust, you can bet management will be back for negotiations on cuts.
    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

    Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
     
    alasizon
    Posts: 2851
    Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:29 am

    EA CO AS wrote:
    WNagent310 wrote:
    Coming straight from the top. All WN employees received emails stating with the passage of the PSP extension COVID-19 relief bill, all pay cut and furlough talks are suspended for 2021. Great news for all WN employees and to our unions who held out strong amidst all the pressure!! Let the recovery begin!!


    While I’m glad no one at WN will be furloughed, you’re kidding yourself if you think “holding out” or acts by the unions had anything to do with this. The government rode in to the rescue, nothing more, and if the recovery isn’t robust, you can bet management will be back for negotiations on cuts.


    WN also had made clear from the start that were some version of a PSP2 to be passed, there would be no furloughs or pay cuts. No big union win here as this was guaranteed to happen if the US Govt. acted appropriately.
    Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
     
    737max8
    Posts: 706
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:00 pm

    kiowa wrote:
    737max8 wrote:
    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    1. What if the timing was to get congress to do something? There is always more to the story...

    2. Gift cards were made unavailable for a couple days because employees were cashing out hundreds of thousands of points due to a misunderstanding, causing the company a ton of money. They were quickly put back BEFORE Christmas, including instant, digital gift cards.

    I am thankful GK has put WN in such a position, that even with money that will only last until summer by my calculations, will allow WN to avoid zero pay cuts or furloughs through the worst times in aviation HISTORY. I didn't see anyone bashing GK when he gave them record profit sharing for years.


    Employees earn profit sharing. GK does not “give” money to workers.


    His decisions are what leads to the companies profit margins.
    The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
    Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
     
    kiowa
    Posts: 832
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:43 pm

    737max8 wrote:
    kiowa wrote:
    737max8 wrote:

    1. What if the timing was to get congress to do something? There is always more to the story...

    2. Gift cards were made unavailable for a couple days because employees were cashing out hundreds of thousands of points due to a misunderstanding, causing the company a ton of money. They were quickly put back BEFORE Christmas, including instant, digital gift cards.

    I am thankful GK has put WN in such a position, that even with money that will only last until summer by my calculations, will allow WN to avoid zero pay cuts or furloughs through the worst times in aviation HISTORY. I didn't see anyone bashing GK when he gave them record profit sharing for years.


    Employees earn profit sharing. GK does not “give” money to workers.


    His decisions are what leads to the companies profit margins.


    I think you give too much credit to one person. The people make the company.
     
    mga707
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:53 am

    Shouldn't the thread title be changed to reflect recent events? Maybe to 'Southwest WARN Notices Cancelled' or something similar?
     
    av8tiongeek
    Posts: 81
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm

    Management's actions were tied to an extension of the PSP. Period. Sadly, many employees shared their willingness to forfeit anything and everything to 'save' the company while multiple workgroups are in negotiations. LUV does not need to be saved (yet). The company was and is still sitting on a war chest and will continue to aggressively expand over the next few months. Let's hope the vaccine is effective so we can put an end to the crisis and move forward. Here's to 2021!
     
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    Citrus1492
    Posts: 63
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    Re: WN sending out WARN Notices

    Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:52 pm

    BrazilExPat wrote:
    737tanker wrote:
    Unfortunately Gary Kelly has already ruined the culture and the relationship between management and the employees. He did this by sending out the WARN notices 2 months before they were legally required and just before Christmas, which put a damper on Christmas for those employees notified. Additional, again just before Christmas, he cancelled the gift card option that the attendance incentive program offered to employees.


    The “SWAG” program is not cancelled. The fact is the program never really increased attendance at WN. Also, to call it a gift card program is rather weird. Visa gift cards were only one of the thousands of things you could redeem with your attendance points. Through December, we still have the attendance points. I think it’s actually a kudos to WN to cancel the attendance part of the program if it actually did nothing to help attendance. They also stated that points would be given in the future, so to call it a cancellation is capricious.


    SWAG was introduced to tie your yearly buddy pass allotment to attendance. The upside was, if you had no buddies to give passes to, you could spend your SWAG points on other items. One of the perks of working a low wage job such as airport ground ops is buddy passes. Making you jump thru hoops to get them is just a bit ULCCish to me.
    Be the best
     
    flyiguy
    Posts: 1009
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    United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:52 am

    United Airlines has sent out notices to 14,000 staff members notifying them of potential furlough of the US government doesn’t pass another assistance package.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflyi ... 191JXRv4UU

    Fly
    The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
     
    airlineworker
    Posts: 281
    Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:24 am

    The virus is getting worse, we might see some chapter 11's soon. Tough times coming for everybody.
     
    dfwking
    Posts: 95
    Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:16 pm

    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:36 am

    https://twitter.com/afa_cwa/status/1355296257099632642?s=20

    It seems like Senator Schumer is already on board with bailout package # 3. Great news for airline workers.
     
    mwmav8r01
    Posts: 72
    Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:22 pm

    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:39 am

    airlineworker wrote:
    The virus is getting worse, we might see some chapter 11's soon. Tough times coming for everybody.



    How exactlynis it getting worse?

    Case counts are going down.

    Airlines starting to hire.
     
    splitterz
    Posts: 197
    Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:40 am

    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:40 am

    dfwking wrote:
    https://twitter.com/afa_cwa/status/1355296257099632642?s=20

    It seems like Senator Schumer is already on board with bailout package # 3. Great news for airline workers.


    It’s a joke to the rest of working country.
     
    Blerg
    Posts: 4758
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    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:52 am

    The aid US carriers got, was it a loan from the government they have to repay or was it a form of a subsidy?
     
    Scarebus34
    Posts: 640
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    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:53 am

    Blerg wrote:
    The aid US carriers got, was it a loan from the government they have to repay or was it a form of a subsidy?

    both.
     
    Blerg
    Posts: 4758
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    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:55 am

    Scarebus34 wrote:
    Blerg wrote:
    The aid US carriers got, was it a loan from the government they have to repay or was it a form of a subsidy?

    both.


    Do you know under what terms they got the loan and how much were the subsidies?

    If I got it right, the subsidies, so the non-loan part of the aid package, will be absorbed by the national debt?
     
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    ua900
    Moderator
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    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:25 am

    Blerg wrote:
    Scarebus34 wrote:
    Blerg wrote:
    The aid US carriers got, was it a loan from the government they have to repay or was it a form of a subsidy?

    both.


    Do you know under what terms they got the loan and how much were the subsidies?

    If I got it right, the subsidies, so the non-loan part of the aid package, will be absorbed by the national debt?


    The first package stipulated that for major carriers, 70% will not need to be paid back, and repayment on 30%, while smaller carriers receiving $100 million or less will not need to repay any funds.

    Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN21W2XA

    The second Package seems a bit mum on repayment details if there are any.

    Source: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-th ... es-2020-12

    The big question is exactly how many packages would ultimately be needed here. From the article: "As Kirby and Hart plainly told employees, this cycle may begin again in April if additional aid isn't secured."

    Kirby is realistic about demand still not recovering sufficiently in Q1, DL and AA are likely in a similar predicament: https://hub.united.com/2020-12-21-a-mes ... 04291.html
    2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
     
    dfwking
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    Re: United Airlines sends out Furlough Notices Again

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:34 am

    splitterz wrote:

    It’s a joke to the rest of working country.


    As folks who love this industry, I think we can all choose to support bailout # 3.


    ua900 wrote:

    The big question is exactly how many packages would ultimately be needed here. From the article: "As Kirby and Hart plainly told employees, this cycle may begin again in April if additional aid isn't secured."

    Kirby is realistic about demand still not recovering sufficiently in Q1, DL and AA are likely in a similar predicament


    I think if you look at the situation objectively, with the vaccine roll out and the onset of warm weather, we can get to a very low number of deaths / cases by Summer. I don't see a need for a 4th bailout.

    Of course, we need to take into consideration the new virus variants, reduced business demand, and closed international borders. But, as long as domestic demand returns with strength, airlines could get to cash breakeven this Summer.
     
    Blerg
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    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:36 am

    Interesting, thank you. I suppose as time goes by and as the situation does not improve, airlines will be in no position to pay back what they received. More debt will be added to the country which isn't good especially since airlines have been recording billions in profits before the pandemic. The government should give them a two years grace period after which they should start returning the money they got. I am no fan of corporations being saved while the little guy is left on its own.

    If the government introduces mandatory testing for domestic travel then I could see demand disappear and the situation becoming much worse.
     
    VS11
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    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:33 am

    Blerg wrote:
    Interesting, thank you. I suppose as time goes by and as the situation does not improve, airlines will be in no position to pay back what they received. More debt will be added to the country which isn't good especially since airlines have been recording billions in profits before the pandemic. The government should give them a two years grace period after which they should start returning the money they got. I am no fan of corporations being saved while the little guy is left on its own.

    If the government introduces mandatory testing for domestic travel then I could see demand disappear and the situation becoming much worse.


    Airlines will manage capacity to increase yields to pay their debts - either through some merger activity, code sharing or some going out of business. Additionally, due to extremely low interest rates, creditors have no choice but to continue to lend and work with companies if those start to struggle to repay. There are lots of risks and challenges for sure but the worst is behind us.
     
    A330Inter
    Posts: 115
    Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:59 pm

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:35 am

    Blerg wrote:
    If the government introduces mandatory testing for domestic travel then I could see demand disappear and the situation becoming much worse.


    Wouldn't it be cheaper for governments to make covid testing mandatory before flying but subsidizing it, rather than bailing out airlines?
    I would feel 99% safe flying on a plane where everybody has tested negative, and life could continue relatively closer to normal

    In some countries you get your baggage scanned even before stepping into the terminal, same principle here... it's annoying ok but it works
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9288
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:11 pm

    Blerg wrote:
    Interesting, thank you. I suppose as time goes by and as the situation does not improve, airlines will be in no position to pay back what they received. More debt will be added to the country which isn't good especially since airlines have been recording billions in profits before the pandemic. The government should give them a two years grace period after which they should start returning the money they got. I am no fan of corporations being saved while the little guy is left on its own.

    If the government introduces mandatory testing for domestic travel then I could see demand disappear and the situation becoming much worse.


    It's going to be tough to argue that all of the debt of all U.S. carriers gets paid back. There was at least one major U.S. carrier that regularly had quarters of negative free cash flow even in 'good' times, before it took on another $10 Billion in debt, before we saw what may be a lengthy collapse in high-fare business demand that will now demand changes in route structure (fewer flights to small cities because leisure passengers won't pay the fares to support small/high CASM planes).

    As noted, 30% of the carrier support came as loans administered by the U.S. Treasury, and 70% came in the form of grants. The payroll support grants are a new from of government support in the U.S. but have been used in Europe, where some national governments have long subsidized wage payments to have firms keep workers on the payroll.

    For publicly-traded U.S. carriers (meaning all the majors except Frontier), terms of their government loans are disclosed. Taking on big debt is a material transaction and must be documented under the rules of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). Generally, economy-wide interest rates have been low but not for some U.S. carriers - lenders (banks, hedge funds, people in the market for bonds) had started demanding rather high risk premiums. There was a report of United withdrawing an offering when it looked like they would need to pay 11 or 12% annually.

    If carriers thought they could get all the funds they needed on the private market, cheaper than government funds, without the stock buyback, dividend payment and executive compensation restrictions, they wouldn't have a reason to borrow from the government, really.

    Given the terms that some carriers would likely have faced on the market, government terms were pretty generous (and one could argue - that was the point). This is a link to a SEC filing by AA regarding its first CARES Act loans: https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/st ... 7502dea822

    On September 25, 2020 (the “Closing Date”), American Airlines, Inc. (“American”) and American Airlines Group Inc., American’s parent corporation
    (“AAG”), entered into a Loan and Guarantee Agreement, dated as of the Closing Date (the “Loan Agreement”), among American, as the borrower,
    AAG, as guarantor, the other guarantors party thereto from time to time, the United States Department of the Treasury (the “Treasury”), as lender, and
    the Bank of New York Mellon, as administrative agent and collateral agent. The Loan Agreement, as executed on the Closing Date, provides for a
    secured term loan facility (the “Facility”) which permits American to borrow up to $5,477 million as further described below. American has been
    advised by the Treasury that it intends to allocate additional loans under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act (the “CARES Act”) in
    October 2020 and that such additional allocations are currently expected to cause the amount available to American under the Facility to increase to up
    to $7,500 million in the aggregate, although such amount is subject to final approval by the Treasury.


    Borrowings under the Facility will bear interest at a variable rate per annum equal to (a)(i) the London interbank offer rate divided by (ii) one (1) minus
    the Eurodollar Reserve Percentage (as defined in the Loan Agreement) plus (b) 3.50%. Accrued interest on the loans shall be payable in arrears on the
    first business day following the 14
    th day of each March, June, September and December (beginning with September 15, 2021), and on the Maturity Date
    (as defined below). The applicable interest rate for the $550 million loan drawn on the Closing Date under the Facility will be 3.87% per annum for the
    period from the Closing Date through September 15, 2021 at which time the interest rate will reset in accordance with the foregoing formula.
    All advances under the Facility will be in the form of term loans, all of which will mature and be due and payable in a single installment on June 30,
    2025 (the “Maturity Date”)
     
    User avatar
    mercure1
    Posts: 5137
    Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:43 pm

    Philippine Airlines announced it would eliminate 2,300 jobs, representing 30% of the company's workforce following a comprehensive system-wide review of the company’s operations.

    http://www.orientaviation.com/articles/ ... nounces-30%-cut-in-workforce-
    mercure f-wtcc
     
    Alias1024
    Posts: 2773
    Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:29 pm

    On a happier note, Delta awarded a bid today that will return approximately 400 pilots to active flying status.
    It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
     
    Varsity1
    Posts: 2285
    Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:20 pm

    Alias1024 wrote:
    On a happier note, Delta awarded a bid today that will return approximately 400 pilots to active flying status.



    Good for them, But that's less than 2.9% of Deltas 14,000+ pilots at mainline alone.
     
    VS11
    Posts: 1714
    Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:41 pm

    AA to send 13,000 furlough notices as federal aid expires March 31.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/03/america ... s-low.html

    Per the article: The industry has received $40b payroll support since last March. Unions are asking for another $15b to last until Sept 30.

    Seems to me vaccination should be well under way by Sept 30 so travel demand should be picking up steam by then.
     
    Alias1024
    Posts: 2773
    Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:03 am

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Alias1024 wrote:
    On a happier note, Delta awarded a bid today that will return approximately 400 pilots to active flying status.



    Good for them, But that's less than 2.9% of Deltas 14,000+ pilots at mainline alone.


    But it’s about 23% of the 1,700+ that aren’t flying right now. At least it’s not more WARN letters.
    It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 9288
    Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 am

    Varsity1 wrote:
    Alias1024 wrote:
    On a happier note, Delta awarded a bid today that will return approximately 400 pilots to active flying status.



    Good for them, But that's less than 2.9% of Deltas 14,000+ pilots at mainline alone.


    I don't believe DL has 14K+ pilots after the voluntary separations.

    https://www.ajc.com/news/business/more- ... E7QD63EUU/
     
    User avatar
    UPlog
    Posts: 690
    Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

    Re: Aviation sector unpaid leaves and layoffs thread

    Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:00 pm

    Air Wisconsin Airlines to off 140 pilots. Says reductions due to decreased flying for United.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/n ... oyees.html
    I fly your boxes
     
    FlyingElvii
    Posts: 1228
    Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

    AA Warns of 13,000 Layoffs April 1, Will Union Emps Early-Outs, Union Says FA’s Taking Biggest Hit

    Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:08 pm

    Association for Professional Flight Attendants spokesman told WFAA Dallas that it will be mostly flight attendants who bear the brunt of any furloughs if American Airlines is forced to implement involuntary layoffs on March 31.

    Sadly, this makes a lot of sense. They have already cut ground and HQ staffing to the bone. All Airlines are trying to hold on to pilots, but especially mechanics right now. A significant percentage of FA’s at the majors are hobby-jobbers, they are likely trying to move them out, like Delta is doing, to keep the less senior (lower paid) FA’s who consider it a full time job.

    Interesting article, if short.
    https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlin ... yoffs.html
     
    CX747
    Posts: 6574
    Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

    Re: AA Warns of 13,000 Layoffs April 1, Will Union Emps Early-Outs, Union Says FA’s Taking Biggest Hit

    Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:21 pm

    Always hard to see folks loosing their jobs. Hope this does not come to pass but I don't see how it does not.
    "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
     
    chonetsao
    Posts: 879
    Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

    Re: AA Warns of 13,000 Layoffs April 1, Will Union Emps Early-Outs, Union Says FA’s Taking Biggest Hit

    Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:41 pm

    So sad to see people loosing jobs.

    Yet I felt it is inevitable some will in this pandemic. Sad but nothing can be done until travel is back.

    So I hope travel will be back asap and some of the people can be reemployed soon after.
     
    jayunited
    Posts: 3347
    Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

    Re: AA Warns of 13,000 Layoffs April 1, Will Union Emps Early-Outs, Union Says FA’s Taking Biggest Hit

    Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:04 pm

    FlyingElvii wrote:
    Association for Professional Flight Attendants spokesman told WFAA Dallas that it will be mostly flight attendants who bear the brunt of any furloughs if American Airlines is forced to implement involuntary layoffs on March 31.

    Sadly, this makes a lot of sense. They have already cut ground and HQ staffing to the bone. All Airlines are trying to hold on to pilots, but especially mechanics right now. A significant percentage of FA’s at the majors are hobby-jobbers, they are likely trying to move them out, like Delta is doing, to keep the less senior (lower paid) FA’s who consider it a full time job.

    Interesting article, if short.
    https://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlin ... yoffs.html


    The 13,000 employees who received WARN letters are the same employees who were brought back to work as a result of CARES Act 2. United Airlines did the exact same thing because the law requires it. Even when employees are brought back on a temporary basis they still must receive a WARN letter informing them they are again at risk of being furloughed.

    The first time around United's voluntary separation program offers were weak. United didn't offer any money and the health care coverage was laughable. This time around United's VSP offers are much stronger and depending on the option the employee takes it includes either a lot of money but no health care coverage and no retirement health account, or a smaller amount of money but you get health care and a retirement health account with $125,000 dollars in it. Employees age 45+ with 15 plus years seniority qualify. Employees who are younger than 45 or have less than 15 years their VSP is not good at all. I'm not sure about American but United has a much older more senior workforce so I think they are hoping to get a lot more people to take VSP this time around which would limit the total number of furloughs on March 31st.

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