As Airlines are asking and encouraging employees to take paid or unpaid leaves all over the world as Industry is in difficult time.

This thread will keep track of paid/ unpaid leaves and lay offs during this difficult time.

To begin with:

1) Emirates asks pilots to take unpaid leave.
2) Qatar Airway lays off staff.


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/emir ... 04788.html

B6 Is paying pilots 50 hours to sit at home next month

Min schedule for everybody else

KLM reduces all employees hours (and pay) to 20%.
The resulting gap is partly filled in by the government, but depending on ongoing talks, either fully OR 70% of the amount you would get when unemployed (which is 1500 euro net per month in this case).

So either a really big decrease in monthly pay, or a little one, pension payments are (mostly) home.

Eikie wrote:

The resulting gap is partly filled in by the government, but depending on ongoing talks, either fully OR 70% of the amount you would get when unemployed (which is 1500 euro net per month in this case).

1500 euro net seems enough to survive in Netherlands. I am sure a lot of people live with less money.

UA - partial pay for pilots for sitting at home. Details not publicized.

DL - partial pay for pilots for sitting at home. Details not publicized.

Both DL and UA with voluntary unpaid leaves.

SCQ83 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

The resulting gap is partly filled in by the government, but depending on ongoing talks, either fully OR 70% of the amount you would get when unemployed (which is 1500 euro net per month in this case).

1500 euro net seems enough to survive in Netherlands. I am sure a lot of people live with less money.

Most probably.. But what does that say for people that have to pay the morgage which is based on more than that amount? Pay the taxes based on that house, etc?

And this concerns a lot more than just KLM employees, if this crisis continues for a long time, a lot of houses will be put on sale, without any potential buyers..
And the Netherlands isn't exactly overflowing with affordable houses either to buy or rent.

So 1500 may be enough on paper, it will be a slaughter if all really goes down the drain.

Eikie wrote:

Most probably.. But what does that say for people that have to pay the morgage which is based on more than that amount? Pay the taxes based on that house, etc?

And this concerns a lot more than just KLM employees, if this crisis continues for a long time, a lot of houses will be put on sale, without any potential buyers..
And the Netherlands isn't exactly overflowing with affordable houses either to buy or rent.

So 1500 may be enough on paper, it will be a slaughter if all really goes down the drain.

1500 EUR is enough to live in Netherlands. I live in Paris (way more expensive than Amsterdam) and this month will spend less than that due to quarantine (basically paying for housing and food). But I don't have debts and I have a lifestyle well below my means.

Probably when property prices were booming in NL a couple of years ago they were happy about their wealth. And getting a leased Tesla Model X on top of that (there are plenty of them everywhere in NL; I doubt many of them are paid in cash).

But that is life. People living well beyond their means. A lot of people will go bankrupt and will become debt-slaves like in Ireland, Spain or Florida in 2008. You cannot expect governments paying for somebody's luxurious lifestyle when things go bad. If that people had savings, little or no debt and 1500 EUR/month now they would be fine.

While this is related to the virus, I'm going to leave the thread separate, as the effects on employment and staffing could extend well beyond this crisis.

✈️ atcsundevil

SCQ83 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

Most probably.. But what does that say for people that have to pay the morgage which is based on more than that amount? Pay the taxes based on that house, etc?

And this concerns a lot more than just KLM employees, if this crisis continues for a long time, a lot of houses will be put on sale, without any potential buyers..
And the Netherlands isn't exactly overflowing with affordable houses either to buy or rent.

So 1500 may be enough on paper, it will be a slaughter if all really goes down the drain.

1500 EUR is enough to live in Netherlands. I live in Paris (way more expensive than Amsterdam) and this month will spend less than that due to quarantine (basically paying for housing and food). But I don't have debts and I have a lifestyle well below my means.

Probably when property prices were booming in NL a couple of years ago they were happy about their wealth. And getting a leased Tesla Model X on top of that (there are plenty of them everywhere in NL; I doubt many of them are paid in cash).

But that is life. People living well beyond their means. A lot of people will go bankrupt and will become debt-slaves like in Ireland, Spain or Florida in 2008. You cannot expect governments paying for somebody's luxurious lifestyle when things go bad. If that people had savings, little or no debt and 1500 EUR/month now they would be fine.

Exactly what you say. Most people spend (sometimes even more) all of the income. More income, bigger house, more income nicer car....I was like this but changed course last year. I sold my house, my second car just a couple of months ago. I can’t tell you how relieved I am to be able to live of €1500 right now! We’ll see what it brings. The proposed reduction in salaries at KLM for pilots is between 20 to 30% before tax. That’s excluding the pensions, these will get hit even harder.

SCQ83 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

Most probably.. But what does that say for people that have to pay the morgage which is based on more than that amount? Pay the taxes based on that house, etc?

And this concerns a lot more than just KLM employees, if this crisis continues for a long time, a lot of houses will be put on sale, without any potential buyers..
And the Netherlands isn't exactly overflowing with affordable houses either to buy or rent.

So 1500 may be enough on paper, it will be a slaughter if all really goes down the drain.

1500 EUR is enough to live in Netherlands. I live in Paris (way more expensive than Amsterdam) and this month will spend less than that due to quarantine (basically paying for housing and food). But I don't have debts and I have a lifestyle well below my means.

Probably when property prices were booming in NL a couple of years ago they were happy about their wealth. And getting a leased Tesla Model X on top of that (there are plenty of them everywhere in NL; I doubt many of them are paid in cash).

But that is life. People living well beyond their means. A lot of people will go bankrupt and will become debt-slaves like in Ireland, Spain or Florida in 2008. You cannot expect governments paying for somebody's luxurious lifestyle when things go bad. If that people had savings, little or no debt and 1500 EUR/month now they would be fine.

While this does go way beyond the original meaning of the topic, please be careful when comparing different countries or even cities.

While some/many might live beyond their meana, in the Netherlands it is quite common to own a house, since renting is either more expensive than buying or impossible because there are no available houses.

In most big(ger) cities, the average rent is approaching 1500 for a minor studio, good luck findings anything cheaper. Also the common house has a buying price of 300.000 euro, starting when wanting to live within an hour traveltime of the airport.
That give an rough mortgage of 1.000 if you includes the taxes tied to the house (most mortgages still have a 3 percent interest from a few years back).

So it is no surprise anyone with a decent playing job took a mortgage which is above what you can get a minimum income and if your income decreases by 50%, it will be difficult after a while.

That's not living above the means, but forced upon you if you want to live.

I think sadly airlines here in the US will be quickly going to paying pilots and maybe FAs the minimum to outright furloughs. Hopefully the world gets back to sanity really quick and the damage is short term in nature. Needless to say the knock on effects to other related industries is really ugly.

One aspect of furloughs that I find curious (and problematic) is that furloughs are generally just driven by straight DOH seniority.

I wonder to what degree certain bases (obviously varies by airline) will be impacted. Some are far more senior than others, which could result in involuntary displacement or bumping and then creating a whole new type of problem with commuting. ie: IAH for UA flight attendants is super senior, but some FAs could conceivably be bumped with 15+ years of seniority and have to commute to say SFO or LAX, etc.

Any thoughts on that?

Still no layoff numbers here at UA yet.

UA is offering up to 6 months unpaid leave, employees don't have to take the whole 6 months each department can decide how much or little block time they think their employees would be comfortable with, I think the lowest amount I've seen is a week. UA will allow full-time employees to work part-time hours while keeping their full-time benefits. This is huge because a lot of employees have stated they would be willing to work part-time if it means saving another coworker from a layoff, so this is now being offered.

All of these programs are an attempt to keep as many employees on the payroll while still reducing expenses, hopefully we get enough employee participation people taking a week or two weeks perhaps even a month of no pay. Ground employees voluntarily reducing their work hours from 40 to 20 per week. If we get enough employee participation the number of layoffs may not be as bad as originally anticipated (rumored). At the end of the day UA just needs to reduced expenses and save money how we get there total depends on how many employees take UA up on these offers. In management there are some employees who have offered to take a temporary pay cut if that pay cut means less people get layoff.

Eikie wrote:

KLM reduces all employees hours (and pay) to 20%.
The resulting gap is partly filled in by the government, but depending on ongoing talks, either fully OR 70% of the amount you would get when unemployed (which is 1500 euro net per month in this case).

So either a really big decrease in monthly pay, or a little one, pension payments are (mostly) home.

So with the new program being put in place in The Netherlands, KLM and other airlines with employees in The Netherlands will be reimbursed 90% of employee salaries, payable to the employer. Where the employer pays the employee 100%. There is talks today between KLM and the unions today on what they decided to do.
For easyJet in The Netherlands, they employ about 350 Cabin Crew and Pilots ( give or take). The unions have not been 100% informed what the company is going to do, although easyJet is likely to apply to the same fund by Friday.
As for KLc and Transavia, they are planing to take similar steps.
As for the discussion to live of €1500 a month here... unlikely to be able to do this. Keep in mind that the minimum wage is here is €1653,60 ...

jayunited wrote:

Still no layoff numbers here at UA yet.

UA is offering up to 6 months unpaid leave, employees don't have to take the whole 6 months each department can decide how much or little block time they think their employees would be comfortable with, I think the lowest amount I've seen is a week. UA will allow full-time employees to work part-time hours while keeping their full-time benefits. This is huge because a lot of employees have stated they would be willing to work part-time if it means saving another coworker from a layoff, so this is now being offered.

All of these programs are an attempt to keep as many employees on the payroll while still reducing expenses, hopefully we get enough employee participation people taking a week or two weeks perhaps even a month of no pay. Ground employees voluntarily reducing their work hours from 40 to 20 per week. If we get enough employee participation the number of layoffs may not be as bad as originally anticipated (rumored). At the end of the day UA just needs to reduced expenses and save money how we get there total depends on how many employees take UA up on these offers. In management there are some employees who have offered to take a temporary pay cut if that pay cut means less people get layoff.

I feel bad for my wife. She’s a little over a month from passing probation so she would be the first to go and not included in the furlough language if that’s the route UA takes.

Crazy and incredibly sad how fast this happened. A month ago we were in Chicago celebrating the optimistic, bright future ahead for the company.

slider wrote:

One aspect of furloughs that I find curious (and problematic) is that furloughs are generally just driven by straight DOH seniority.

I wonder to what degree certain bases (obviously varies by airline) will be impacted. Some are far more senior than others, which could result in involuntary displacement or bumping and then creating a whole new type of problem with commuting. ie: IAH for UA flight attendants is super senior, but some FAs could conceivably be bumped with 15+ years of seniority and have to commute to say SFO or LAX, etc.

Any thoughts on that?

Seniority-driven layoffs is how it's specified in the labor contracts - most U.S. carriers/most crafts are unionized. Yes, there will be displacement effects. It will be argued all day that this structure 'recognizes' seniority.

slider wrote:

One aspect of furloughs that I find curious (and problematic) is that furloughs are generally just driven by straight DOH seniority.

I wonder to what degree certain bases (obviously varies by airline) will be impacted. Some are far more senior than others, which could result in involuntary displacement or bumping and then creating a whole new type of problem with commuting. ie: IAH for UA flight attendants is super senior, but some FAs could conceivably be bumped with 15+ years of seniority and have to commute to say SFO or LAX, etc.

Any thoughts on that?

For flight attendants it is disruptive and certainly a decline in quality of life to go from driving to work to commuting by air, or line holder to reserve, but the expense to the airline is pretty straightforward. Flight attendants being able to work every fleet makes it much less expensive, and it is on the FA to be in position for trips, whether that means commuting by air or moving. Could drive some to retire or resign, which the airline wouldn't mind when staffing is excessive.

Pilots will be massively expensive for the Big 3 if they furlough. That bottom captain doesn't hit the street, they displace to any spot their seniority can hold. And on and on down the list. Airlines can't easily predict who will do what either. Pilots may consider the type of flying an aircraft does, want to stay in a certain base, want a relative seniority within their category, might want to stay on the largest aircraft they can for pay, etc... These factors give big airlines with diverse fleets an incentive to try and avoid furlough if at all possible.

For example, lets say a United 787 captain were displaced. The chain of displacements may end up looking like this:

CA 787 DEN => CA 757/767 DEN
CA 757/767 DEN => CA 757/767 ORD
CA 757/767 ORD => CA A320 ORD
CA A320 ORD => CA 737 ORD
CA 737 ORD => CA A320 IAD
CA A320 IAD => FO 777 IAD
FO 777 IAD => FO 777 SFO
FO 777 SFO => FO A320 DEN
FO A320 DEN => FO 737 SFO
FO 737 SFO => nobody junior left companywide, gets furloughed

10 displacements. 7 pilots getting retrained, 2 transfers, one furloughed. Sometimes that chain will be shorter, with fewer training events because people decide to chase the plane and avoid training.

The problem with voluntarily going part time is if that is not enough and they still lay you off, now your unemployment is only going to pay 20 hours a week.

dutchflyboi wrote:

Eikie wrote:

unlikely to be able to do this. Keep in mind that the minimum wage is here is €1653,60 ...

This amount of €1.653 is not enough for a Dutch cabin crew member and average Dutchman. Rent is in the Randstad (outside Amsterdam) already starting at € 1,200 then the the other costs. I think a pilot would have a larger house with rents from € 3,000. Incidentally, this government subsidy applies to all Dutch people who lost their income now, not just KLM. Small entrepreneurs such as cafes, restaurants and bars receive € 4,000 from the government. The Dutch government has indicated that there is are a buffer of € 90 billion, which seems a lot, but the first three months already will cost € 20 billion. But luckely the Dutch government saved a lot of money the last decade.

SCQ83 wrote:

Eikie wrote:

The resulting gap is partly filled in by the government, but depending on ongoing talks, either fully OR 70% of the amount you would get when unemployed (which is 1500 euro net per month in this case).

1500 euro net seems enough to survive in Netherlands. I am sure a lot of people live with less money.

HAHAH That’s not how it works. Most people in the United States could live off $3000 a month but that won’t even cover my mortgage.

I don’t live outside my means I live within the means of how much I make. you cut my pay by 70% and up a creek. And you would be too.

In regards to the UA bases furloughing on seniority, how does this effect the LHR/FRA bases, which I would imagine are 2 of the most senior bases going, right? Correct me if I’m wrong, don’t work for UA, just an observation.

With regards to furloughing, bases do not matter. the only thing that is considered during a furlough is seniority. The #1 person picks where he wants to go, then #2 next and then down the line until they run out of musical chairs and the people who are left standing when the music stops are furloughed.

Woodreau wrote:

With regards to furloughing, bases do not matter. the only thing that is considered during a furlough is seniority. The #1 person picks where he wants to go, then #2 next and then down the line until they run out of musical chairs and the people who are left standing when the music stops are furloughed.

Bingo and everyone who is forced out of their base is entitled to a company paid move. Furloughs do not save money in the short term.

Woodreau wrote:

With regards to furloughing, bases do not matter. the only thing that is considered during a furlough is seniority. The #1 person picks where he wants to go, then #2 next and then down the line until they run out of musical chairs and the people who are left standing when the music stops are furloughed.

Right thanks for clearing that up. But for example, a senior LHR based crew member can’t just up sticks and move to SFO/EWR for example due to the obvious visa restrictions etc, so I’m assuming the overseas bases will be near enough left alone.

In researching other viral outbreaks - like the H1N1 in 2009 - the timeframe seems to last months, not years. However, the recovery won't be as swift as the collapse.

For pilot furloughs to make sense, it's generally accepted that something near two years or more is needed to be cost effective. There's not only the down-training, but also the upside up-training costs to be considered.

Further, AA, DL and UA all have large numbers of pilot retirements in the next two years - that needs to be considered, too.

It all depends on the contract between the airline and the workgroup.

Some contracts allow for voluntary displacements...

For example if LHR has 10 crew members and now is going to down size to just 6 crew members, #6 may decide I don’t want to be on reserve in LHR. So I will volunteer to displace to EWR where I will be number #1 in EWR and have better relative seniority. So while #6 in LHR has seniority over #7-10 in LHR and won’t be displaced in a furlough, he volunteers to displace to protect his relative seniority.

Clear as mud?

Read your contracts! My ramp one at UA specifically exempts the company from a lot of the costs and procedures of furloughs (pay, etc.) if it is an act of God or an "event requiring the grounding of a significant portion of the Company's aircraft"

mattyfitzg wrote:

0

Woodreau wrote:

With regards to furloughing, bases do not matter. the only thing that is considered during a furlough is seniority. The #1 person picks where he wants to go, then #2 next and then down the line until they run out of musical chairs and the people who are left standing when the music stops are furloughed.

Right thanks for clearing that up. But for example, a senior LHR based crew member can’t just up sticks and move to SFO/EWR for example due to the obvious visa restrictions etc, so I’m assuming the overseas bases will be near enough left alone.

According to company guidance sent out last night, HKG, LHR and FRA cabin crew will receive a fake master schedule for April. So far, the NRT base still has flying assigned. The remaining LHR and FRA flights will be staffed with US crews for schedule reliability. The company recognizes that 25% of crews based in London and Frankfurt commute from other European cities and may face difficulty getting to base for assigned trips. So these Crews will get paid their contractual minimum of 71 hours and not fly at all.
Specifically at United, they have several levers mitigate reduction in personnel:
Voluntary
1 month COLA (company offered leave of absence) for April
2 month Cola starting in April
One month Cola starting in May
Six-month Cola starting in April

If not enough accept, then:
Voluntary furlough starting with most senior system-wide

If not enough accept, then:
Involuntary furlough starting with most junior system-wide.
The company also has the ability to offer jobshares in specific bases where 2 flight attendants share one schedule.
The majority of flight attendants in the international bases have 25+ years seniority.

What kind of timeline do you think this process takes for the big 3 in the US? If it comes down to furloughs, do you think those people will know in a few weeks, a month, a week etc? Curious what the process length generally takes.

Force Majure changes a lot of things....

TSA shutting down April 1st...
Rumored that Compass may be following on April 6th.

NLDru wrote:

dutchflyboi wrote:

Eikie wrote:

unlikely to be able to do this. Keep in mind that the minimum wage is here is €1653,60 ...

This amount of €1.653 is not enough for a Dutch cabin crew member and average Dutchman. Rent is in the Randstad (outside Amsterdam) already starting at € 1,200 then the the other costs. I think a pilot would have a larger house with rents from € 3,000. Incidentally, this government subsidy applies to all Dutch people who lost their income now, not just KLM. Small entrepreneurs such as cafes, restaurants and bars receive € 4,000 from the government. The Dutch government has indicated that there is are a buffer of € 90 billion, which seems a lot, but the first three months already will cost € 20 billion. But luckely the Dutch government saved a lot of money the last decade.

That was my point exactly. My response was to the quote where someone stated that €1500 was enough. Clearly it is not enough

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

FlyingElvii wrote:

TSA shutting down April 1st...
Rumored that Compass may be following on April 6th.

Do you mean PSA? If it's TSA then we truly are done flying for awhile.

Trans State is shutting down on April 1st. I think FlyingElvii was stating that.

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

An excellent question...

Silver1SWA wrote:

I feel bad for my wife. She’s a little over a month from passing probation so she would be the first to go and not included in the furlough language if that’s the route UA takes.
Crazy and incredibly sad how fast this happened. A month ago we were in Chicago celebrating the optimistic, bright future ahead for the company.

I hope you and your family stay safe during this pandemic. I applied for a reservations job at Continental, the summer before 9/11. I even interviewed at their offices in Secaucus but I am lucky I didn't get it as I remained at my current job. Its crazy how life goes sometimes.

Everyone stay safe

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

Because like them or lump them, unions do require money to function. Now more than ever I’m glad I’ve got one.

Just heard from reliable source that Aeromexico asked their HQ employees a 30-50% salary reduction to their entire staff.

No news on salary reductions for pilots. But they should be implemented soon, the airline already stopped all of their southamerica flights, and is now stopping Europe, US/CA will come soon leaving the carrier with a few domestic flights, until the Mexican government (which is in full denial of COVID19) acts.

FlyingElvii wrote:

TSA shutting down April 1st...
Rumored that Compass may be following on April 6th.

Wasnt TSA scheduled to shut down before the virus took a stranglehold on the United States?

INFINITI329 wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

TSA shutting down April 1st...
Rumored that Compass may be following on April 6th.

Wasnt TSA scheduled to shut down before the virus took a stranglehold on the United States?

yes, but they would sunset at the end of the year. Now they are closing in a few weeks.

Qantas has just announced that all international flights have stopped and 2/3 of the workforce has been temporarily stood down.

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

IPFreely wrote:

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

LOL - That will be the day. I am as pro-union as they come but there is certainly just as much greed at the top of the union as the top of a company.

jetmatt777 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

gonnagetbumpy wrote:

Why don't the unions waive dues for a few months to help employees? Aren't they supposed to have the employees' best interest at heart?

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

LOL - That will be the day. I am as pro-union as they come but there is certainly just as much greed at the top of the union as the top of a company.

Then the unions should issue a press release that their executives are taking pay cuts in proportion to airline executives -- several of whom are working for free for the remainder of 2020.

IPFreely wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

LOL - That will be the day. I am as pro-union as they come but there is certainly just as much greed at the top of the union as the top of a company.

Then the unions should issue a press release that their executives are taking pay cuts in proportion to airline executives -- several of whom are working for free for the remainder of 2020.

I am not disagreeing with you at all. I am just saying I would not expect it. They are most likely brokering a deal with the companies to lower our layoff packages in exchange for a big check for the union top brass.

IPFreely wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

LOL - That will be the day. I am as pro-union as they come but there is certainly just as much greed at the top of the union as the top of a company.

Then the unions should issue a press release that their executives are taking pay cuts in proportion to airline executives -- several of whom are working for free for the remainder of 2020.

Agreed. Joe DePete is making what, around $440K a year base? Meanwhile his membership is about to go through massive upheaval. Lead by example Joe...

IPFreely wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

IPFreely wrote:

At a minimum they should issue a press release that all union executives are taking temporary pay cuts in proportional to their members' income.

LOL - That will be the day. I am as pro-union as they come but there is certainly just as much greed at the top of the union as the top of a company.

Then the unions should issue a press release that their executives are taking pay cuts in proportion to airline executives -- several of whom are working for free for the remainder of 2020.

I think it will take time to see the filings, etc, but aren’t we talking salary only? The majority of compensation comes from stock, which is also in the toilet now, but that has not been reduced as far as I know. If anyone knows better, please advise.

11C wrote:

I think it will take time to see the filings, etc, but aren’t we talking salary only? The majority of compensation comes from stock, which is also in the toilet now, but that has not been reduced as far as I know. If anyone knows better, please advise.

You can see the SEC filings for publicly-traded U.S. carriers (everybody big except Frontier), specifically Schedule 14A. These cite the stock option exercise prices and details of base/incentive/stock compensation. DL's last option awards were at $51.23/share --- way, way out of the money at present. DL and AA also have guidelines specifying what multiple of their base salary (up to 8X, IIRC) execs should hold as shares. They've given up a lot of value YTD. Yes, execs will be better off than people collecting Unemployment Insurance max of $400/week (which varies by state).

A flight attendant friend of mine is getting a "basic salary, " and doing no work. He works for SV. He rightfully points out that it's a government company and he of course is a Saudi National. I don't think the women FA's who are all non Saudi are getting a free ride like he is.