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NWAESC
Posts: 1583
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:50 pm

I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2531
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:00 pm

NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:02 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2531
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:08 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


The XLR might be ok for a 757 replacement but it will not be able to do 767 routes like CVG-CDG that goes out full with engine parts from GE. I could see BA stepping in with LHR-CVG when the pandemic is over since Delta appears be leaving CVG high and dry. Again.
 
alfa164
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:11 pm

NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


I thought ATL-DUS and ATL-STR both were probably dependent of contracts with the German car companies (Mercedes and Porsche) basing their American headquarters in Atlanta. I wonder if this means those companies have told Delta to expect considerably reduces travel next year.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


The XLR might be ok for a 757 replacement but it will not be able to do 767 routes like CVG-CDG that goes out full with engine parts from GE. I could see BA stepping in with LHR-CVG when the pandemic is over since Delta appears be leaving CVG high and dry. Again.

With ~30 330neos on order, surely that will take over some of the slack from the 767 in some routes. Even if the neo displaces the A330-200 on some of the long thing routes, allowing the -200 to drop down.

763 to 332 isn’t a massive leap up in size on a profitable route. Have to imagine if CDG-CVG has survived so far it’ll press on, but I could see IND-CVG going away. If I’m allowed to dream, Delta grabs those PW engined 332s at Virgin... I know, not happening.
 
ehaase
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:02 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:55 pm

ehaase wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:22 pm

alfa164 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


I thought ATL-DUS and ATL-STR both were probably dependent of contracts with the German car companies (Mercedes and Porsche) basing their American headquarters in Atlanta. I wonder if this means those companies have told Delta to expect considerably reduces travel next year.


That could be. I had those contracts in mind when I payed earlier.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:33 am

TonyClifton wrote:
ehaase wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


The 757 does some trans-atlantic flying, but I think the concern is over the flights that need further range than JFK/BOS to Western Europe but not significantly more seats.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:36 am

jb1087xna wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
ehaase wrote:

Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


The 757 does some trans-atlantic flying, but I think the concern is over the flights that need further range than JFK/BOS to Western Europe but not significantly more seats.

I can see that, and until Boeing launches an NMA or Airbus an A322 we are rather stuck.
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:40 am

alfa164 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


I thought ATL-DUS and ATL-STR both were probably dependent of contracts with the German car companies (Mercedes and Porsche) basing their American headquarters in Atlanta. I wonder if this means those companies have told Delta to expect considerably reduces travel next year.


Both STR and MUC are the auto places, not DUS. DUS was drawing more on the large German population in the North-Rhone-Westphalia region heading to Florida...I think that’s why you see STR still scheduled to come back in 2021 (and ATL-MUC has already restarted this month).
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:45 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Just wait. There's going to be a lot of secondary Europe cut with the 767 being retired. The A330 is way too big.

Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


The XLR might be ok for a 757 replacement but it will not be able to do 767 routes like CVG-CDG that goes out full with engine parts from GE. I could see BA stepping in with LHR-CVG when the pandemic is over since Delta appears be leaving CVG high and dry. Again.


CVG-CDG currently has a resumption date of Apr 1 2021. While that may or may not stick, it clearly shows DL has no intention of abandoning the route over the long-term for now. Otherwise, it could have been cut for next summer already like so many other routes were this past weekend.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:51 am

DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like. I suspect these changes will be more evolutionary (in reaction to the pandemic and rate of recovery in various parts of the world) rather than revolutionary.

In the meantime, here are the latest DL's Winter, 2020-21 schedule reductions:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-08aug20/

No real shockers here. Some are normal seasonal reductions, while others are clearly pandemic driven.


It looks like Europe from the non-DHS airports are getting wiped out along with a lot of routes from JFK. Could the JFK eliminations be a response to AA/JetBlue trying to build up presence there?
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:15 am

rjbesikof wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like. I suspect these changes will be more evolutionary (in reaction to the pandemic and rate of recovery in various parts of the world) rather than revolutionary.

In the meantime, here are the latest DL's Winter, 2020-21 schedule reductions:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-08aug20/

No real shockers here. Some are normal seasonal reductions, while others are clearly pandemic driven.


It looks like Europe from the non-DHS airports are getting wiped out along with a lot of routes from JFK. Could the JFK eliminations be a response to AA/JetBlue trying to build up presence there?


The last thing DL will do at JFK is to retreat because of AA/B6. The JFK changes listed are largely pandemic-driven as they are frequency reductions on routes this winter that had been planned to be double daily year-round (like CDG and TLV), and dropping the winter season for the year-round EDI and LIS.
 
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WassbiKhalifa
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:45 am

NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


Wow. I have to fly to DUS for a vendor about once a year. That's huge.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:59 am

NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.



To me that DTW-LHR is not operating is the biggest shocker
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:02 am

panamair wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.


I thought ATL-DUS and ATL-STR both were probably dependent of contracts with the German car companies (Mercedes and Porsche) basing their American headquarters in Atlanta. I wonder if this means those companies have told Delta to expect considerably reduces travel next year.


Both STR and MUC are the auto places, not DUS. DUS was drawing more on the large German population in the North-Rhone-Westphalia region heading to Florida...I think that’s why you see STR still scheduled to come back in 2021 (and ATL-MUC has already restarted this month).


Yes but the automotive traffic is not the reason for these flight it's just the icing on the cake.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:11 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like.


Well you can already get a glimpse of what S21 would look like for TATL with the schedule changes from this weekend. Of course S21 is a long time away and schedules will be continually modified, but it does give you an indication of what DL’s priorities are and where they think the traffic will be:

Out of the 77 TATL nonstop routes planned originally for S20, 52 are coming back so far for S21 and 25 have been removed for booking even into late June 2021:

TATL (Europe/Israel/Africa/India):

JFK nonstops to:
LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, LIS, MAD, BCN, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS.
Suspended: GLA, SNN, CPH, PRG and BOM

ATL nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, JNB, LOS.
Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, and DUS

DTW nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA
Suspended: MUC, FCO

MSP nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG
Suspended: KEF

BOS nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG
Suspended: EDI, MAN, LGW, LIS, FCO (some of these were new for S20 and never even got to start)

SEA nonstops to:
AMS, CDG. No suspensions

SLC nonstops to:
AMS
Suspended: LHR, CDG

LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS

PDX nonstop to
AMS
Suspended LHR

RDU-CDG and CVG-CDG so far will return in S21 but not IND-CDG, MCO-AMS nor TPA-AMS
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:29 pm

Thanks for the update...this is very telling in my opinion on where they (DAL) saw their STRONGEST REVENUE....moving forward and depending on the growth strength would be interesting to see with cities return first.

panamair wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like.


Well you can already get a glimpse of what S21 would look like for TATL with the schedule changes from this weekend. Of course S21 is a long time away and schedules will be continually modified, but it does give you an indication of what DL’s priorities are and where they think the traffic will be:

Out of the 77 TATL nonstop routes planned originally for S20, 52 are coming back so far for S21 and 25 have been removed for booking even into late June 2021:

TATL (Europe/Israel/Africa/India):

JFK nonstops to:
LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, LIS, MAD, BCN, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS.
Suspended: GLA, SNN, CPH, PRG and BOM

ATL nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, JNB, LOS.
Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, and DUS

DTW nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA
Suspended: MUC, FCO

MSP nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG
Suspended: KEF

BOS nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG
Suspended: EDI, MAN, LGW, LIS, FCO (some of these were new for S20 and never even got to start)

SEA nonstops to:
AMS, CDG. No suspensions

SLC nonstops to:
AMS
Suspended: LHR, CDG

LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS

PDX nonstop to
AMS
Suspended LHR

RDU-CDG and CVG-CDG so far will return in S21 but not IND-CDG, MCO-AMS nor TPA-AMS
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:42 pm

panamair wrote:
LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS


While DL has suspended LAX-AMS nonstop service, KL still has plans to serve AMS nonstop from LAX in Summer 2021.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:03 pm

klm617 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
I was surprised to see ATLDUS closed indefinitely.



To me that DTW-LHR is not operating is the biggest shocker

Monopoly route, but with how restrictive UK travel is, I’m not sure that they expect 200 folks a day to fly from Detroit to London, and can easily route whatever folks do have to get over there through JFK for some efficiencies (Same goes for Minneapolis for example, send the handful of pax through JFK). DTW-LHR will return no doubt.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:06 pm

panamair wrote:
Both STR and MUC are the auto places, not DUS. DUS was drawing more on the large German population in the North-Rhone-Westphalia region heading to Florida...I think that’s why you see STR still scheduled to come back in 2021 (and ATL-MUC has already restarted this month).


While that is true of cars, Dusseldorf is host to MB's largest factory for vans in Europe. Mercedes also has a facility in Bremen, to the north of DUS.

"With a workforce of some 6600 and an annual output of around 150,000 vans, Düsseldorf is Daimler AG's main factory for vans. All the closed variants of the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter – i.e. panel vans and crewbuses – roll off the production line here. The factory has a shop floor covering almost 700,000 square metres and produces almost 700 vans per working day by way of a three-shift system."

Having a large van factory now in South Carolina. as well, it makes sense that they would utilize DUS for travel between those facilities.


https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/Mercedes-Benz-Sprinter--production-at-the-Duesseldorf-factory-Precision-to-a-fraction-of-a-millimetre---quality-workmanship-at-the-main-van-factory.xhtml?oid=9904090
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:17 pm

panamair wrote:
The last thing DL will do at JFK is to retreat because of AA/B6. The JFK changes listed are largely pandemic-driven as they are frequency reductions on routes this winter that had been planned to be double daily year-round (like CDG and TLV), and dropping the winter season for the year-round EDI and LIS.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Totally agree with this assessment. JFK reductions are pandemic driven and will be temporary. DL has made too much investment at JFK to retreat.
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:30 pm

n9801f wrote:
Yes, it's all about cash. Run out of cash and game over.

But one way airlines can conserve cash is to stop bleeding and cancel their least profitable flights. This is why the conversation turns to SEA, BOS, etc.

In good times, perhaps Delta could afford to cross-subsidize weaker, lower profitability flights (SEA?) with stronger high profitability flights elsewhere (ATL/DTW/MSP?)

But in bad times everything falls a few notches. The formerly-strong flights become weak and the formerly-weak flights become disastrous cash losers; this pressures airlines like Delta to conserve cash and cancel them. It helps Delta save the rest of the company.

Additionally, as a taxpayer, I have zero interest in paying Delta's payroll to prop up an unsustainable capacity war in SEA!

Just let the market work. Let the excess capacity (in this case probably Delta in SEA) get purged. Spend the tax dollars on something else, or not at all.

Besides, Delta would be stronger overall if it just concentrated on competing more aggressively with Southwest in Atlanta, which is slowly but steadily making inroads there.


This sounds like very wishful thinking on your part. Hoping and trying to make a case for DL to abandon or even drastically reduce the SEA hub? I just don't see that happening when they know that AA and AS would immediately snap up the DL gates.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:53 pm

panamair wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like.


Well you can already get a glimpse of what S21 would look like for TATL with the schedule changes from this weekend. Of course S21 is a long time away and schedules will be continually modified, but it does give you an indication of what DL’s priorities are and where they think the traffic will be:

Out of the 77 TATL nonstop routes planned originally for S20, 52 are coming back so far for S21 and 25 have been removed for booking even into late June 2021:

TATL (Europe/Israel/Africa/India):

JFK nonstops to:
LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, LIS, MAD, BCN, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS.
Suspended: GLA, SNN, CPH, PRG and BOM


Wasn't there a JFK-LGW which was supposed to start?
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:57 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Wasn't there a JFK-LGW which was supposed to start?


Yes, and BOS-LGW as well. The world as we know it was a very different place back on February 3rd, 2020 when those were announced. Would not be at all surprised if those have been axed for the foreseeable future.

https://news.delta.com/new-paths-across ... k-jfk-2020

Image
Last edited by DL747400 on Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:02 pm

From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
panamair
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:34 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
panamair wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like.


Well you can already get a glimpse of what S21 would look like for TATL with the schedule changes from this weekend. Of course S21 is a long time away and schedules will be continually modified, but it does give you an indication of what DL’s priorities are and where they think the traffic will be:

Out of the 77 TATL nonstop routes planned originally for S20, 52 are coming back so far for S21 and 25 have been removed for booking even into late June 2021:

TATL (Europe/Israel/Africa/India):

JFK nonstops to:
LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, LIS, MAD, BCN, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS.
Suspended: GLA, SNN, CPH, PRG and BOM


Wasn't there a JFK-LGW which was supposed to start?


Yes, but it was going to be operated by VS equipment. I was only counting DL metal in my above list.
 
panamair
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:36 pm

jplatts wrote:
panamair wrote:
LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS


While DL has suspended LAX-AMS nonstop service, KL still has plans to serve AMS nonstop from LAX in Summer 2021.


Yes, I was only counting DL metal here. In fact, KL has been operating AMS-LAX almost continuously during the crisis.
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:39 pm

jplatts wrote:
panamair wrote:
LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS


While DL has suspended LAX-AMS nonstop service, KL still has plans to serve AMS nonstop from LAX in Summer 2021.


KLM operates LAX-AMS year round. In the summer though, they operate a second later afternoon frequency (KL603/KL604) in addition to the early afternoon year round flight (KL601/KL602). Surprised Delta is leaving LAX-AMS to KLM while they will still help AF with LAX-CDG. Does anyone know why?
 
n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:47 pm

DL747400 wrote:
This sounds like very wishful thinking on your part. Hoping and trying to make a case for DL to abandon or even drastically reduce the SEA hub? I just don't see that happening when they know that AA and AS would immediately snap up the DL gates.


Perhaps you underestimate the seriousness of this crisis. As it drags on and is followed by a multi-year recovery, all airlines will be forced to shrink - including Delta. And SEA is an obvious place for Delta to shrink.

Meanwhile, like everyone else, AA/AS are struggling to hang on to their current assets and operations. They're not in a position to backfill Delta in SEA. Besides, 2019's high level of capacity is just not needed anymore.

For the following reasons, Alaska can hang in there longer than Delta in Seattle:

    Alaska has a lower cost structure than Delta
    Alaska also performs better in SEA point of sale domestic revenue
    There is much excess capacity in the SEA domestic market currently
    Alaska has potent, enduring structural advantages - better costs AND better revenue
    Taxpayers should not want to subsidize an unsustainable capacity war in SEA by paying Delta payroll
    Instead let the market work and airlines make painful adjustments, just like all the rest of the industries do

Delta is a great airline and strong overall. But it's in a dubious position in Seattle right now.
 
kavok
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:58 pm

n9801f wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
This sounds like very wishful thinking on your part. Hoping and trying to make a case for DL to abandon or even drastically reduce the SEA hub? I just don't see that happening when they know that AA and AS would immediately snap up the DL gates.


Perhaps you underestimate the seriousness of this crisis. As it drags on and is followed by a multi-year recovery, all airlines will be forced to shrink - including Delta. And SEA is an obvious place for Delta to shrink.

Meanwhile, like everyone else, AA/AS are struggling to hang on to their current assets and operations. They're not in a position to backfill Delta in SEA. Besides, 2019's high level of capacity is just not needed anymore.

For the following reasons, Alaska can hang in there longer than Delta in Seattle:

    Alaska has a lower cost structure than Delta
    Alaska also performs better in SEA point of sale domestic revenue
    There is much excess capacity in the SEA domestic market currently
    Alaska has potent, enduring structural advantages - better costs AND better revenue
    Taxpayers should not want to subsidize an unsustainable capacity war in SEA by paying Delta payroll
    Instead let the market work and airlines make painful adjustments, just like all the rest of the industries do

Delta is a great airline and strong overall. But it's in a dubious position in Seattle right now.


Delta has enough money to pay for any losses in Seattle through to Spring 2021. By then we should have a vaccine. And while no one expects 2021 (with a vaccine) to be close to 2019 levels, the vaccine will allow travel demand to grow enough to make Seattle worthwhile.

Long story short, Delta isn’t giving up on the long term goal of Seattle because of the short term problem of low demand between now and March 2021.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:13 pm

i would think they (DAL) want their metal on CDG due to the higher yields with some business traffic whereas AMS tend to be connections

rjbesikof wrote:
jplatts wrote:
panamair wrote:
LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS


While DL has suspended LAX-AMS nonstop service, KL still has plans to serve AMS nonstop from LAX in Summer 2021.


KLM operates LAX-AMS year round. In the summer though, they operate a second later afternoon frequency (KL603/KL604) in addition to the early afternoon year round flight (KL601/KL602). Surprised Delta is leaving LAX-AMS to KLM while they will still help AF with LAX-CDG. Does anyone know why?
 
jagraham
Posts: 1104
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:24 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
ehaase wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Gotta wonder if there’s going to now be a niche for the 321XLR. Delta will already have an A321neo fleet, so XLR isn’t a whole different beast, and it’ll nicely slot in to replace Intl 757 operations. The burns between the neo and 757 are quite amazing, and it would handle any of the JFK/BOS-western Europe routes (when they come back). Could also handle ATL/MIA to South America.


Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


Bastian has expressed doubts about switching over most TATL to narrowbody.

First, the competition focuses on the front of the plane. Narrowbodies give up too many seats when configured for hi-J. Or even medium J.
Second, the main airports are limited. Either by slots or gates. It's not practical to double the number of TATL flights.
Third, the available new narrowbody (A321XLR) loses half of the A321NEO advantage over a 757 by being 20% heavier. And it loses cargo positions (only 2 for the XLR), so cargo revenue drops.

So TATL and TPAC will be widebodies for the foreseeable future.

As for everyone predicting the short term demise of the 767, remember that DL withdrew their 7 newest 767s. Can't be because they're too old . . .
 
n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:27 pm

kavok wrote:
Delta has enough money to pay for any losses in Seattle through to Spring 2021. By then we should have a vaccine. And while no one expects 2021 (with a vaccine) to be close to 2019 levels, the vaccine will allow travel demand to grow enough to make Seattle worthwhile.

Again, I think you also underestimate the reality of this crisis.

Last's year's robust levels of demand barely supported the growth Delta poured into SEA. And it will be years - not spring 2021 - before demand returns to 2019 levels. It will be a gradual process - things aren't going to just snap back into place next March.

Airlines are accountable to shareholders to spend money responsibly, not capriciously. If Delta or any other airline wants taxpayer money for payroll, it will have to use it responsibly. Lenders (banks) will ensure that debtors (Delta and others) spend money responsibly. And if an airline sells capacity below cost it can violate US competition laws - the US DOJ can and does investigate and enforce these laws.

At the end of the day, Delta can't afford to - and won't - just pour other people's money down a hole until some date far in the future. If it did it would weaken the whole company.

This is all about cutting off a weak limb to save the tree.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:57 pm

jagraham wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
ehaase wrote:

Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


Bastian has expressed doubts about switching over most TATL to narrowbody.

First, the competition focuses on the front of the plane. Narrowbodies give up too many seats when configured for hi-J. Or even medium J.
Second, the main airports are limited. Either by slots or gates. It's not practical to double the number of TATL flights.
Third, the available new narrowbody (A321XLR) loses half of the A321NEO advantage over a 757 by being 20% heavier. And it loses cargo positions (only 2 for the XLR), so cargo revenue drops.

So TATL and TPAC will be widebodies for the foreseeable future.

As for everyone predicting the short term demise of the 767, remember that DL withdrew their 7 newest 767s. Can't be because they're too old . . .

Right most cities won’t need it, but say Glasgow, Edinburgh, Lisbon, Keflavik, the close in targets. Some of those aren’t even D1 up in first. If the option is 330neo or drop the route, sometimes a neo might be better, even non XLR. Long ways off now, but what was valid in January 2020 might change. You can still offer a robust TATL network to Major cities on the 330 and 767-400, and sprinkle in the occasional narrow body on secondary cities.

I don’t expect the 767 dropping dead right now. It should be able to ride for the most part into the mid to late part of the 2020s.

Pre covid, the fix was the NMA. Either the re-engined 767 discussed, or the hypothetical 757+ (Not physically a 757, but a jet upping the ability from what the 757 was). Now the market and options have changed. Let’s see what happens I suppose.
 
HNLSLCPDX
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:40 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:12 pm

Glad to see SLC-AMS returning, hopefully it actually does. Surprised to see SLC-CDG suspended. But not LHR, I don’t think that route ever made money.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:30 pm

I don't see Delta giving up in SEA. I just flew there on United and was surprised how many Delta flights there were. Their gate spaces looked much more comfortable than Alaska as well. Delta has much better customer care and in-flight product than Alaska or its new partner American. For premium services, when COVID19 slows down, I would pick Delta over Alaska anyday. The only thing going against Delta in SEA is that airport. The area around the airport was not a nice area, and the food choices were extremely poor and overcrowded in SEA. SEA will coninue to remain important for Delta and provides Pacific Northwest travelers with a much better alternative to Alaska/American.
 
Lootess
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:00 pm

SEA has been a hub since 2013, non-believers need to give up already. Delta sponsors Sounders and Seahawks, not Alaska. Made AS go nuts to try to shore up Seattle being their home. More like too late. Nothing wrong with AS, great airline and Brad Tilden is an excellent CEO.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5025
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:27 pm

jagraham wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
ehaase wrote:

Hasn't Bastian expressed doubts about trans-Atlantic narrowbody economics?

That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


Bastian has expressed doubts about switching over most TATL to narrowbody.

First, the competition focuses on the front of the plane. Narrowbodies give up too many seats when configured for hi-J. Or even medium J.
Second, the main airports are limited. Either by slots or gates. It's not practical to double the number of TATL flights.
Third, the available new narrowbody (A321XLR) loses half of the A321NEO advantage over a 757 by being 20% heavier. And it loses cargo positions (only 2 for the XLR), so cargo revenue drops.

So TATL and TPAC will be widebodies for the foreseeable future.

As for everyone predicting the short term demise of the 767, remember that DL withdrew their 7 newest 767s. Can't be because they're too old . . .


I would say that's because they have the highest resale value.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
B757Forever
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:01 am

klm617 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
That I don’t know. But considering 757s currently do it, the XLR Burns far less, and international demand won’t be hefty enough for widebodies on many routes, it’s a good option, especially from JFK/BOS where max range isn’t needed. Also can fill in on west coast-Hawaii. My guess is they were keen on NMA but I see that shelved for a good long while at this point.


Bastian has expressed doubts about switching over most TATL to narrowbody.

First, the competition focuses on the front of the plane. Narrowbodies give up too many seats when configured for hi-J. Or even medium J.
Second, the main airports are limited. Either by slots or gates. It's not practical to double the number of TATL flights.
Third, the available new narrowbody (A321XLR) loses half of the A321NEO advantage over a 757 by being 20% heavier. And it loses cargo positions (only 2 for the XLR), so cargo revenue drops.

So TATL and TPAC will be widebodies for the foreseeable future.

As for everyone predicting the short term demise of the 767, remember that DL withdrew their 7 newest 767s. Can't be because they're too old . . .


I would say that's because they have the highest resale value.


Exactly! It's all about resale value. In addition, those 7 are the highest gross weight -300ERs that DL has. They will be hauling express packages in the near future.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:03 am

n9801f wrote:
kavok wrote:
Delta has enough money to pay for any losses in Seattle through to Spring 2021. By then we should have a vaccine. And while no one expects 2021 (with a vaccine) to be close to 2019 levels, the vaccine will allow travel demand to grow enough to make Seattle worthwhile.

Again, I think you also underestimate the reality of this crisis.

Last's year's robust levels of demand barely supported the growth Delta poured into SEA. And it will be years - not spring 2021 - before demand returns to 2019 levels. It will be a gradual process - things aren't going to just snap back into place next March.

Airlines are accountable to shareholders to spend money responsibly, not capriciously. If Delta or any other airline wants taxpayer money for payroll, it will have to use it responsibly. Lenders (banks) will ensure that debtors (Delta and others) spend money responsibly. And if an airline sells capacity below cost it can violate US competition laws - the US DOJ can and does investigate and enforce these laws.

At the end of the day, Delta can't afford to - and won't - just pour other people's money down a hole until some date far in the future. If it did it would weaken the whole company.

This is all about cutting off a weak limb to save the tree.


Yeah, but I don't think DL is performing significantly worse in SEA relative to Alaska. While Alaska may have more Seattle point of sale revenue, I would fully expect Delta generates more non-Seattle point of sale revenue based on Delta's scale outside of the Pacific Northwest. In addition, DL covers a lot more cities throughout the US than Alaska due to Alaska's weak footprint outside of the West, so DL would be winning the Seattle point of sale revenue battle for those cities. Also, worthy to note, there are several key non-DL hub routes where DL gets a fare premium over Alaska.

This said, SEA is absolutely critical for Alaska. As Seattle goes, so does Alaska. On the other hand, DL has a more balanced hub structure to allow them to offset any deficiencies in SEA (if there are any). Your point is noted that if SEA is a significant drag right now, DL would cut it off. But I don't think that is the case unless travel demand remains significantly depressed for years.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5025
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:43 am

MrPeanut wrote:
n9801f wrote:
kavok wrote:
Delta has enough money to pay for any losses in Seattle through to Spring 2021. By then we should have a vaccine. And while no one expects 2021 (with a vaccine) to be close to 2019 levels, the vaccine will allow travel demand to grow enough to make Seattle worthwhile.

Again, I think you also underestimate the reality of this crisis.

Last's year's robust levels of demand barely supported the growth Delta poured into SEA. And it will be years - not spring 2021 - before demand returns to 2019 levels. It will be a gradual process - things aren't going to just snap back into place next March.

Airlines are accountable to shareholders to spend money responsibly, not capriciously. If Delta or any other airline wants taxpayer money for payroll, it will have to use it responsibly. Lenders (banks) will ensure that debtors (Delta and others) spend money responsibly. And if an airline sells capacity below cost it can violate US competition laws - the US DOJ can and does investigate and enforce these laws.

At the end of the day, Delta can't afford to - and won't - just pour other people's money down a hole until some date far in the future. If it did it would weaken the whole company.




This is all about cutting off a weak limb to save the tree.


Yeah, but I don't think DL is performing significantly worse in SEA relative to Alaska. While Alaska may have more Seattle point of sale revenue, I would fully expect Delta generates more non-Seattle point of sale revenue based on Delta's scale outside of the Pacific Northwest. In addition, DL covers a lot more cities throughout the US than Alaska due to Alaska's weak footprint outside of the West, so DL would be winning the Seattle point of sale revenue battle for those cities. Also, worthy to note, there are several key non-DL hub routes where DL gets a fare premium over Alaska.

This said, SEA is absolutely critical for Alaska. As Seattle goes, so does Alaska. On the other hand, DL has a more balanced hub structure to allow them to offset any deficiencies in SEA (if there are any). Your point is noted that if SEA is a significant drag right now, DL would cut it off. But I don't think that is the case unless travel demand remains significantly depressed for years.



Once again the SEA AS/DL conversation is redundant. Delta needs SEA so it's staying no matter what. I really don't think people understand how important SEA is to the Delta network. Any moves that Delta makes in SEA are to create a better bottom line for the operation there. They are not trying to force AS out they just want to be in a better position there plain and simple. The difference between BOS and SEA is Delta doesn't need BOS to have a functional network but SEA is vital to their operation when it comes to serving Asia from the Western half of the USA . SLC can not serve Asia like SEA can. Sure Delta want a nice return on their SEA operation but that is secondary to it being a strategic location for Delta to operate out of.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5025
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:51 pm

If anything I think AS is on the defensive (Or should be) in SEA. Delta is not fighting Alaska at all it's not as if they are dumping capacity into SEA. Delta is assessing it's opportunities there and find out in which markets it is the strongest or have the most potential for return on investment and putting it's resources in those markets. It's not trying to win anything it's trying to get as much yield as it can out of a market it has to be in to remain viable to Asia. If anything I'd say SEA is even more important as a hub to Delta than SLC.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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enilria
Posts: 10254
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
If anything I think AS is on the defensive (Or should be) in SEA. Delta is not fighting Alaska at all it's not as if they are dumping capacity into SEA. Delta is assessing it's opportunities there and find out in which markets it is the strongest or have the most potential for return on investment and putting it's resources in those markets. It's not trying to win anything it's trying to get as much yield as it can out of a market it has to be in to remain viable to Asia. If anything I'd say SEA is even more important as a hub to Delta than SLC.

I do think SEA is a major flashpoint with AA/DL/AS all involved in it. Of course now is not the time to flush money down the toilet, so DL is not pressing the issue, but they are definitely not relatively backing off either. AA is clearly being aggressive, and I'd say AS has been somewhat aggressive with capacity as well post-COVID. It will be interesting to see if DL does anything "new" with its traditional interior hub structure during a prolonged COVID climbback. In past recessions one interior hub has fallen off the boat each time.
 
TW870
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:16 pm

enilria wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If anything I think AS is on the defensive (Or should be) in SEA. Delta is not fighting Alaska at all it's not as if they are dumping capacity into SEA. Delta is assessing it's opportunities there and find out in which markets it is the strongest or have the most potential for return on investment and putting it's resources in those markets. It's not trying to win anything it's trying to get as much yield as it can out of a market it has to be in to remain viable to Asia. If anything I'd say SEA is even more important as a hub to Delta than SLC.

I do think SEA is a major flashpoint with AA/DL/AS all involved in it. Of course now is not the time to flush money down the toilet, so DL is not pressing the issue, but they are definitely not relatively backing off either. AA is clearly being aggressive, and I'd say AS has been somewhat aggressive with capacity as well post-COVID. It will be interesting to see if DL does anything "new" with its traditional interior hub structure during a prolonged COVID climbback. In past recessions one interior hub has fallen off the boat each time.


Agreed completely enilria. Also, debating hub structure right now is like rearranging the deck furniture on the titanic as it sinks. In the US, we botched the testing and contact tracing phase of the pandemic, so are not getting the "in between" period in the pandemic to the extent that Europe and Asia are, where some traffic comes back in a period pre-vaccine but while overall spread is low. To me, the only thing to talk about going forward is whether or not we also botch the vaccine roll-out. If the vaccine comes quickly and is administered smoothly, I think you will see an airline recovery and a hub structure about like it is now. If the vaccine roll out is slow, inefficient, and riddled with controversy, summer 2021 will basically be summer 2020, and then I do think you will see lots of hubs and focus cities shut down long term. But right now, we just don't have that information.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5025
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:23 pm

enilria wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If anything I think AS is on the defensive (Or should be) in SEA. Delta is not fighting Alaska at all it's not as if they are dumping capacity into SEA. Delta is assessing it's opportunities there and find out in which markets it is the strongest or have the most potential for return on investment and putting it's resources in those markets. It's not trying to win anything it's trying to get as much yield as it can out of a market it has to be in to remain viable to Asia. If anything I'd say SEA is even more important as a hub to Delta than SLC.

I do think SEA is a major flashpoint with AA/DL/AS all involved in it. Of course now is not the time to flush money down the toilet, so DL is not pressing the issue, but they are definitely not relatively backing off either. AA is clearly being aggressive, and I'd say AS has been somewhat aggressive with capacity as well post-COVID. It will be interesting to see if DL does anything "new" with its traditional interior hub structure during a prolonged COVID climbback. In past recessions one interior hub has fallen off the boat each time.


In your infinite wisdom which hub to you think is the most at risk of being dismantled by Delta and by the way I agree with your assessment. Also what is the though process that brings you to this conclusion and what would your guess be to what that hub might look like going forward after Delta decided to retreat in that market. You seem to be one of only a few on this forum that can see and give your opinion without bias and I like that about you you have nothing to gain or lose by sharing your well informed knowledge.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5025
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:26 pm

TW870 wrote:
enilria wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If anything I think AS is on the defensive (Or should be) in SEA. Delta is not fighting Alaska at all it's not as if they are dumping capacity into SEA. Delta is assessing it's opportunities there and find out in which markets it is the strongest or have the most potential for return on investment and putting it's resources in those markets. It's not trying to win anything it's trying to get as much yield as it can out of a market it has to be in to remain viable to Asia. If anything I'd say SEA is even more important as a hub to Delta than SLC.

I do think SEA is a major flashpoint with AA/DL/AS all involved in it. Of course now is not the time to flush money down the toilet, so DL is not pressing the issue, but they are definitely not relatively backing off either. AA is clearly being aggressive, and I'd say AS has been somewhat aggressive with capacity as well post-COVID. It will be interesting to see if DL does anything "new" with its traditional interior hub structure during a prolonged COVID climbback. In past recessions one interior hub has fallen off the boat each time.


Agreed completely enilria. Also, debating hub structure right now is like rearranging the deck furniture on the titanic as it sinks. In the US, we botched the testing and contact tracing phase of the pandemic, so are not getting the "in between" period in the pandemic to the extent that Europe and Asia are, where some traffic comes back in a period pre-vaccine but while overall spread is low. To me, the only thing to talk about going forward is whether or not we also botch the vaccine roll-out. If the vaccine comes quickly and is administered smoothly, I think you will see an airline recovery and a hub structure about like it is now. If the vaccine roll out is slow, inefficient, and riddled with controversy, summer 2021 will basically be summer 2020, and then I do think you will see lots of hubs and focus cities shut down long term. But right now, we just don't have that information.


At this point I think we are looking at the virus dying out verse a vaccine coming on the market. To me we are going to have to wait until this thing runs it's course while doing things to stop the spread.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
RobertS975
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:57 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Thanks for the update...this is very telling in my opinion on where they (DAL) saw their STRONGEST REVENUE....moving forward and depending on the growth strength would be interesting to see with cities return first.

panamair wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Still waiting for details on what this new, smaller DL will look like.


Well you can already get a glimpse of what S21 would look like for TATL with the schedule changes from this weekend. Of course S21 is a long time away and schedules will be continually modified, but it does give you an indication of what DL’s priorities are and where they think the traffic will be:

Out of the 77 TATL nonstop routes planned originally for S20, 52 are coming back so far for S21 and 25 have been removed for booking even into late June 2021:

TATL (Europe/Israel/Africa/India):

JFK nonstops to:
LHR, EDI, DUB, AMS, BRU, CDG, NCE, FRA, BER, ZRH, MXP, FCO, VCE, ATH, LIS, MAD, BCN, KEF, TLV, DSS, ACC, LOS.
Suspended: GLA, SNN, CPH, PRG and BOM

ATL nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG, FRA, MUC, STR, FCO, MAD, BCN, JNB, LOS.
Suspended: MXP, VCE, BRU, ZRH, and DUS

DTW nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG, FRA
Suspended: MUC, FCO

MSP nonstops to:
LHR, AMS, CDG
Suspended: KEF

BOS nonstops to:
LHR, DUB, AMS, CDG
Suspended: EDI, MAN, LGW, LIS, FCO (some of these were new for S20 and never even got to start)

SEA nonstops to:
AMS, CDG. No suspensions

SLC nonstops to:
AMS
Suspended: LHR, CDG

LAX nonstop to
CDG
Suspended: AMS

PDX nonstop to
AMS
Suspended LHR

RDU-CDG and CVG-CDG so far will return in S21 but not IND-CDG, MCO-AMS nor TPA-AMS



This makes the second time that BOS-FCO was announced but never started. It was killed by the traffic decline after 9/11 as well as by the pandemic.

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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos