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MIflyer12
Posts: 8487
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:04 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
doug_or wrote:
Sounds like upcoming A220 deliveries will be headed to SBD (in addition to some currently operating examples) as Delta furloughs most of the A220 FOs Oct 1.

I assume speculation based on the 1900+ pilots furloughed. I would think DL would want to minimize cost per flight and that means flying A220s. So why I doubt DL will spend overtime to train 717 and A220 pilots, I would think they have a decent batch of FO.

Lightsaber


About 75% of the A220 FOs will be furloughed in 4 weeks. They don't have the capacity to put nearly enough through SIM/IOE. Compounding the problem, training had instructors and evaluators early retire or get displaced off the A220 in the last pilot bid. Expect several months to reach a balance.


That's one of the perversities of inverse seniority furloughs. DL didn't improperly staff the A220 such that it won't have enough people to fly it -- senior pilots wanted to fly other aircraft so A220 runs junior. DL is lucky to have 717 crews, and plenty of A32X staff to run 319s on stuff too far for 717s.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5246
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:41 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep, come Oct. 1 they can't fully staff the A220. A220 FO, particularly the NYC base was the most junior base and almost all are getting furloughed. With the massive displacement bid, they can't get enough FOs trained to fully staff the aircraft for awhile.

In Oct, most of the A220 through DTW (flown by crews from SEA or NYC) reverts to other aircraft types. There is even some 717 flying returning to DTW.


Does DTW have a crew base for the A220 ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8249
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:35 am

No has not had and is not planned to have a 220 crew base. All the trips were flown by NYC or SLC based pilots. The A220s have been primarily deployed on routes like DTW-DFW, IAH, AUS, SAT, LGA

---
2021:

350: (A359) DTW, ATL, LAX
330: (A332, A333, A339) ATL, NYC, DTW, MSP, SEA
765: (B764) ATL, NYC
7ER: (B752, B753, B763) ATL, NYC, LAX, SEA

320: (A319, A320, A321) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX
73N: (B738, B739) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX, SEA
717: (B712) ATL, DTW
220: (A220) NYC, SLC

ATL:
350
765
330
7ER
320
73N
717
(777, M88 removed)

DTW:
350
330
320
73N
717
(7ER removed)

MSP:
330
320
73N
(7ER, 717 removed)

SLC:
320
73N
220
(7ER removed)

NYC:
765
330
7ER
320
73N
220
(717 removed)

SEA:
330
7ER
73N

LAX:
350
7ER
320
73N
(777 removed)

CVG:
(73N removed)
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:05 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I assume speculation based on the 1900+ pilots furloughed. I would think DL would want to minimize cost per flight and that means flying A220s. So why I doubt DL will spend overtime to train 717 and A220 pilots, I would think they have a decent batch of FO.

Lightsaber


About 75% of the A220 FOs will be furloughed in 4 weeks. They don't have the capacity to put nearly enough through SIM/IOE. Compounding the problem, training had instructors and evaluators early retire or get displaced off the A220 in the last pilot bid. Expect several months to reach a balance.


That's one of the perversities of inverse seniority furloughs. DL didn't improperly staff the A220 such that it won't have enough people to fly it -- senior pilots wanted to fly other aircraft so A220 runs junior. DL is lucky to have 717 crews, and plenty of A32X staff to run 319s on stuff too far for 717s.


Perversity? I get it gives the corporation less flexibility. But, getting laid off for "choosing the 777" after 35 loyal years while a pilot hired a month earlier stays seems perverse to me. It's not like there wasn't 6 months to figure this out. And they could always stagger the furloughs instead of 1,941 in one day. They chose a shock and awe massive displacement that shuffled everyone, pushed instructors and examiners out of position. They could have done things differently, targeted succesive pilot bids of MD88 + 777 displacements while adding A220 positions. A lot of this is mismanagement.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8487
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:08 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

About 75% of the A220 FOs will be furloughed in 4 weeks. They don't have the capacity to put nearly enough through SIM/IOE. Compounding the problem, training had instructors and evaluators early retire or get displaced off the A220 in the last pilot bid. Expect several months to reach a balance.


That's one of the perversities of inverse seniority furloughs. DL didn't improperly staff the A220 such that it won't have enough people to fly it -- senior pilots wanted to fly other aircraft so A220 runs junior. DL is lucky to have 717 crews, and plenty of A32X staff to run 319s on stuff too far for 717s.


Perversity? I get it gives the corporation less flexibility. But, getting laid off for "choosing the 777" after 35 loyal years while a pilot hired a month earlier stays seems perverse to me. It's not like there wasn't 6 months to figure this out. And they could always stagger the furloughs instead of 1,941 in one day. They chose a shock and awe massive displacement that shuffled everyone, pushed instructors and examiners out of position. They could have done things differently, targeted succesive pilot bids of MD88 + 777 displacements while adding A220 positions. A lot of this is mismanagement.


Sure. That 35-year displaced 777 pilot gets to go wherever his seniority wins him, pushing out some less-senior pilot off A330s or whatever. That's what the contract specifies, and it's a common practice across U.S. carriers.

With slow, successive bids you're asking the company to carry pilots it knows it doesn't need. Welcome to U.S. capitalism, where earning returns for shareholders is the priority, not running a pilot make-leisure program.
 
LHA320
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:48 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
No has not had and is not planned to have a 220 crew base. All the trips were flown by NYC or SLC based pilots. The A220s have been primarily deployed on routes like DTW-DFW, IAH, AUS, SAT, LGA

---
2021:

350: (A359) DTW, ATL, LAX
330: (A332, A333, A339) ATL, NYC, DTW, MSP, SEA
765: (B764) ATL, NYC
7ER: (B752, B753, B763) ATL, NYC, LAX, SEA

320: (A319, A320, A321) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX
73N: (B738, B739) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX, SEA
717: (B712) ATL, DTW
220: (A220) NYC, SLC

ATL:
350
765
330
7ER
320
73N
717
(777, M88 removed)

DTW:
350
330
320
73N
717
(7ER removed)

MSP:
330
320
73N
(7ER, 717 removed)

SLC:
320
73N
220
(7ER removed)

NYC:
765
330
7ER
320
73N
220
(717 removed)

SEA:
330
7ER
73N

LAX:
350
7ER
320
73N
(777 removed)

CVG:
(73N removed)


With the 7ER group removed from 3 bases is it safe to say that some 752s will be retired too?
There seems to be an surplus of aircraft in fleet in relation to bases left, even more than the announced retirement of 10 763s
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2692
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:41 pm

LHA320 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
No has not had and is not planned to have a 220 crew base. All the trips were flown by NYC or SLC based pilots. The A220s have been primarily deployed on routes like DTW-DFW, IAH, AUS, SAT, LGA

---
2021:

350: (A359) DTW, ATL, LAX
330: (A332, A333, A339) ATL, NYC, DTW, MSP, SEA
765: (B764) ATL, NYC
7ER: (B752, B753, B763) ATL, NYC, LAX, SEA

320: (A319, A320, A321) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX
73N: (B738, B739) ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, NYC, LAX, SEA
717: (B712) ATL, DTW
220: (A220) NYC, SLC

ATL:
350
765
330
7ER
320
73N
717
(777, M88 removed)

DTW:
350
330
320
73N
717
(7ER removed)

MSP:
330
320
73N
(7ER, 717 removed)

SLC:
320
73N
220
(7ER removed)

NYC:
765
330
7ER
320
73N
220
(717 removed)

SEA:
330
7ER
73N

LAX:
350
7ER
320
73N
(777 removed)

CVG:
(73N removed)


With the 7ER group removed from 3 bases is it safe to say that some 752s will be retired too?
There seems to be an surplus of aircraft in fleet in relation to bases left, even more than the announced retirement of 10 763s


Just because a hub may no longer have a pilot group for a particular aircraft type, it doesn't mean the type won't operate from that hub anymore. It will just be covered by another pilot base.
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:33 am

Surprised no one has posted it yet but Delta today confirmed that they will not have to furlough a single flight attendant for the fall and winter:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breaking- ... ttendants/

After the early-outs, Delta indicated they would be overstaffed by about 3000 flight attendants. But I guess they were able to cobble together more short and long term leaves to make the numbers work.
 
nwadeicer
Posts: 310
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:45 am

panamair wrote:
Surprised no one has posted it yet but Delta today confirmed that they will not have to furlough a single flight attendant for the fall and winter:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breaking- ... ttendants/

After the early-outs, Delta indicated they would be overstaffed by about 3000 flight attendants. But I guess they were able to cobble together more short and long term leaves to make the numbers work.


Funny how they didn't mention front line staff...
I miss the Red Tail
 
tjerome
Posts: 349
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:26 am

nwadeicer wrote:
panamair wrote:
Surprised no one has posted it yet but Delta today confirmed that they will not have to furlough a single flight attendant for the fall and winter:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breaking- ... ttendants/

After the early-outs, Delta indicated they would be overstaffed by about 3000 flight attendants. But I guess they were able to cobble together more short and long term leaves to make the numbers work.


Funny how they didn't mention front line staff...


They were going to offer FAs TDY assignments in ACS (if they didn’t get enough to take LOAs/Catering assignments/split lines) so it is still a good thing for the rest of us in some sense.
 
Ih8b6
Posts: 203
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:40 am

nwadeicer wrote:
panamair wrote:
Surprised no one has posted it yet but Delta today confirmed that they will not have to furlough a single flight attendant for the fall and winter:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breaking- ... ttendants/

After the early-outs, Delta indicated they would be overstaffed by about 3000 flight attendants. But I guess they were able to cobble together more short and long term leaves to make the numbers work.


Funny how they didn't mention front line staff...


Nothing to mention. Frontline, scale employee furloughs were never on the table.
 
dalmit
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:13 pm

Ih8b6 wrote:
Nothing to mention. Frontline, scale employee furloughs were never on the table.


If you can just clarify this for me. Are there no plans to furlough customer service, reservations, or mechanics at this point? Is it just pilots that are being furloughed come Oct?
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:38 pm

dalmit wrote:
Is it just pilots that are being furloughed come Oct?


Good question. If true, I wonder whether DALPA will now reapproach the company with a new willingness to be flexible? If that doesn't happen, I wonder whether the pilots will put pressure their union leaders to do so?
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nwadeicer
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:53 pm

dalmit wrote:
Ih8b6 wrote:
Nothing to mention. Frontline, scale employee furloughs were never on the table.


If you can just clarify this for me. Are there no plans to furlough customer service, reservations, or mechanics at this point? Is it just pilots that are being furloughed come Oct?


Yes, kind of confused on this statement as well. So you are saying that there will be no layoffs for any other work group at Delta?
I miss the Red Tail
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:03 pm

DL747400 wrote:
dalmit wrote:
Is it just pilots that are being furloughed come Oct?


Good question. If true, I wonder whether DALPA will now reapproach the company with a new willingness to be flexible? If that doesn't happen, I wonder whether the pilots will put pressure their union leaders to do so?


Major optics opportunity to furlough the only unionized group while benevolently saving the rest. This could ward off the previously mounting union drives, and keep FA, MX and others without employment contracts for decades. Playing chess with labor relations. Either way, win-win for management: get CBA concessions from the pilots or discipline them for the rest of the non-contract employees see.
 
dalmit
Posts: 23
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:00 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:

Major optics opportunity to furlough the only unionized group while benevolently saving the rest. This could ward off the previously mounting union drives, and keep FA, MX and others without employment contracts for decades. Playing chess with labor relations. Either way, win-win for management: get CBA concessions from the pilots or discipline them for the rest of the non-contract employees see.


Wow. I didn't mean to turn this into a union vs non-union discussion. I am just struck by how AA and UA are threatening all these cuts among airport cust service, flight attendants, mechanics etc and Delta doesn't appear to be needing those same level of cuts. I guess I just assumed that Delta was offering those groups much better voluntary programs than UA/AA and UA/AA were counting on the Federal Govt to pay the tab for awhile longer.

But maybe Delta WAS ABLE to offer better Voluntary Programs for their non union group because they are non union. I don't know.

The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.
 
B757Forever
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Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:22 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
dalmit wrote:
Ih8b6 wrote:
Nothing to mention. Frontline, scale employee furloughs were never on the table.


If you can just clarify this for me. Are there no plans to furlough customer service, reservations, or mechanics at this point? Is it just pilots that are being furloughed come Oct?


Yes, kind of confused on this statement as well. So you are saying that there will be no layoffs for any other work group at Delta?



On the call-in show two weeks ago, we were told no furloughs for scale TechOps employees. This is due to the amount of insourcing done and the high take-rate for the retirement package.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 79
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:24 pm

dalmit wrote:
The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


This seems to be a commonly help perception but the statistics are that Delta pilots are 3 times MORE likely to contract Covid-19 than any other work group, including Flight Attendants.
 
Lootess
Posts: 516
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:53 pm

dalmit wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

Major optics opportunity to furlough the only unionized group while benevolently saving the rest. This could ward off the previously mounting union drives, and keep FA, MX and others without employment contracts for decades. Playing chess with labor relations. Either way, win-win for management: get CBA concessions from the pilots or discipline them for the rest of the non-contract employees see.


Wow. I didn't mean to turn this into a union vs non-union discussion. I am just struck by how AA and UA are threatening all these cuts among airport cust service, flight attendants, mechanics etc and Delta doesn't appear to be needing those same level of cuts. I guess I just assumed that Delta was offering those groups much better voluntary programs than UA/AA and UA/AA were counting on the Federal Govt to pay the tab for awhile longer.

But maybe Delta WAS ABLE to offer better Voluntary Programs for their non union group because they are non union. I don't know.

The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


Yep, especially higher-age frontline people and/or those with preexisting conditions is understandable.

Delta does a pretty good job with FAs in-general ever since Joanne had been with the company. Just like the uniform outcome, this will be another notch under their belt for the future with being creative and no furloughs unlike the union shops.
 
airtechy
Posts: 775
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:31 pm

Congratulations to the Delta flight attendants! It does bring up two questions for me. Of the three major airlines, how was Delta able to achieve zero furloughs (for flight attendants) and the other two furloughs in the thousands. The other is how could Delta in concert with the pilots union further reduced the pilot furloughs? For instance, are unpaid leaves allowed under a labor contract? Maybe a better early retirement offer?

Anyway, considering the circumstances, this can only be considered a good thing.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3025
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:16 pm

dalmit wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

Major optics opportunity to furlough the only unionized group while benevolently saving the rest. This could ward off the previously mounting union drives, and keep FA, MX and others without employment contracts for decades. Playing chess with labor relations. Either way, win-win for management: get CBA concessions from the pilots or discipline them for the rest of the non-contract employees see.


Wow. I didn't mean to turn this into a union vs non-union discussion. I am just struck by how AA and UA are threatening all these cuts among airport cust service, flight attendants, mechanics etc and Delta doesn't appear to be needing those same level of cuts. I guess I just assumed that Delta was offering those groups much better voluntary programs than UA/AA and UA/AA were counting on the Federal Govt to pay the tab for awhile longer.

But maybe Delta WAS ABLE to offer better Voluntary Programs for their non union group because they are non union. I don't know.

The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


I can't speak for AA but I know here at United Airlines our FA's had the highest level of participation in voluntary furloughs some are on voluntary for 13 months and the FA's also had the highest participation in UA's early out program.

The difference between DL and UA comes down to guaranteed minimum hours and pay. Now while Delta has not cut any employees hourly pay they have reduced the number of hours their remaining FA's work, they have reduced their minimum and spread out flying lines to insure all FA's have opportunities to fly. That is simply not possible here at United without re-negotiating the contract. Unless the union agrees there is no way UA can reduce flying minimums. The union and the company did agree to have some lines with zero flying. This would allow FA's to keep their benefits among other things and they could pick up lines other FA's are dropping. This decision did save over 5,000 FA's from involuntary furlough. But without a reduction in minimums (and no I'm not advocating for a reduction in minimums I know what our FA's sacrificed for years) there is no way UA could avoid involuntary furloughs.

On one hand I have to say congratulations to Delta but on the other hand it is clear that without a union Delta would have found a way to achieve it goals whether the FA's voluntarily complied or not. All we have to do is look at Delta pilots, with 1,900 pilots being involuntarily furloughed. Delta management presented a plan they promised would avoid layoffs for one year but it was rejected. The end result is Delta has to abide by the contract it has with its pilots and the unfortunate outcome is 1,900 pilots are facing furloughs, it is the same thing with UA's FA's there is no secret sauce.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:44 pm

B757Forever wrote:

On the call-in show two weeks ago, we were told no furloughs for scale TechOps employees.


We haven't heard anything in ACS. Lots of vague "furloughs are a last resort!" type stuff, but nothing concrete like IFS and TechOps.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:45 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
dalmit wrote:
The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


This seems to be a commonly help perception but the statistics are that Delta pilots are 3 times MORE likely to contract Covid-19 than any other work group, including Flight Attendants.


Pilots aren't required to wear masks in the cockpit, right? That likely accounts for at least some of the difference in risk factor...
 
joeblow10
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:20 pm

bcbhokie wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
dalmit wrote:
The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


This seems to be a commonly help perception but the statistics are that Delta pilots are 3 times MORE likely to contract Covid-19 than any other work group, including Flight Attendants.


Pilots aren't required to wear masks in the cockpit, right? That likely accounts for at least some of the difference in risk factor...


I think "technically" it's listed as policy (somebody sent me some comments of a DL FA complaining the pilots weren't wearing masks when she went into the cockpit during their bathroom break) - but nobody does it at DL or any carrier from what I can tell. And quite frankly - when you're 2-3 feet from the other guy for hours at a time, it's understandable why nobody does.

At least the FA's can move around (kind of) after takeoff, if one of the other FAs happen to have it - though obviously the traveling public probably isn't the safest bet either
 
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75driver
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:26 pm

airtechy wrote:
Congratulations to the Delta flight attendants! It does bring up two questions for me. Of the three major airlines, how was Delta able to achieve zero furloughs (for flight attendants) and the other two furloughs in the thousands. The other is how could Delta in concert with the pilots union further reduced the pilot furloughs? For instance, are unpaid leaves allowed under a labor contract? Maybe a better early retirement offer?

Anyway, considering the circumstances, this can only be considered a good thing.


There are 4000 FA’s taking unpaid leave, 4000 more early outs, add another 1000 or so splitting their lines or their bids then another 1000 (or more) heading elsewhere in the company. That’s a pretty astronomical number. It’s just sounds good to say they didn’t furlough but in fact they did jettison many.

I also think they present it like this to squeeze DALPA saying “look we didn’t furlough any FA’s, if it wasn’t for your pesky contract...”. There’s knuckle heads on both sides too because the union hasn’t done everything right but that’s for another topic.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:47 am

75driver wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Congratulations to the Delta flight attendants! It does bring up two questions for me. Of the three major airlines, how was Delta able to achieve zero furloughs (for flight attendants) and the other two furloughs in the thousands. The other is how could Delta in concert with the pilots union further reduced the pilot furloughs? For instance, are unpaid leaves allowed under a labor contract? Maybe a better early retirement offer?

Anyway, considering the circumstances, this can only be considered a good thing.


There are 4000 FA’s taking unpaid leave, 4000 more early outs, add another 1000 or so splitting their lines or their bids then another 1000 (or more) heading elsewhere in the company. That’s a pretty astronomical number. It’s just sounds good to say they didn’t furlough but in fact they did jettison many.

I also think they present it like this to squeeze DALPA saying “look we didn’t furlough any FA’s, if it wasn’t for your pesky contract...”. There’s knuckle heads on both sides too because the union hasn’t done everything right but that’s for another topic.

Good for the FAs to do so much to avoid layoffs. Each group must be handled differently.

This is how it should be done.

The pilots negotiated for what they thought was best.

I'll celebrate one group not getting laid off.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
global1
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:45 am

Wonderful news.

Delta went the extra mile by offering a very generous retirement/ early out package. Paid leaves for those over 65 or 60 and over with underlying health issues, split lines, one month on one month off, temporary duty assignments in other departments, etc...Without our flexibility, some of these options would not have been available.

Although I personally was not in imminent danger, I am very relieved for my colleagues.

Thank You Delta
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:27 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
dalmit wrote:
The other thing I would like to add is that there is a big difference being a pilot and quarantining yourself up in the flight deck vs. working at the airport or being a Flight attendant and working closely with the public. I'm not surprised frontline people would take temporary leaves or early retirement during this pandemic.


This seems to be a commonly help perception but the statistics are that Delta pilots are 3 times MORE likely to contract Covid-19 than any other work group, including Flight Attendants.


Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.
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Pi7472000
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:17 pm

Amazing news for Delta FAs. It is great to see how much more junior FAs at Delta benefit than at companies like AA or United. It is much better to take an unpaid leave (and get unemployment benefits) than be furloughed and keep benefits. Delta has done a much better job trying to save jobs than other airlines.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:22 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.


I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s something as simple as a proximity issue?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
2175301
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:46 pm

NWAESC wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.


I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s something as simple as a proximity issue?


Or maybe its just a total fabrication... 3 times does not sound like a plausible number to me.

I need to see a credible source on this.
 
umichman
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:02 pm

2175301 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.


I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s something as simple as a proximity issue?


Or maybe its just a total fabrication... 3 times does not sound like a plausible number to me.

I need to see a credible source on this.


In addition, you'd have to consider percentages and sample size. With low enough numbers, the "3 times" amount could be statistically meaningless. Also, correlation does not equal causation. The infections could be entirely due to their activities and behavior outside of work and not related to their activities in relation to the performance of their profession.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:49 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Amazing news for Delta FAs. It is great to see how much more junior FAs at Delta benefit than at companies like AA or United. It is much better to take an unpaid leave (and get unemployment benefits) than be furloughed and keep benefits. Delta has done a much better job trying to save jobs than other airlines.


I'm happy for the FAs, what a sigh of relief that they avoided cuts through March. But let's be real, they never received WARN act letters back in July did they? It appears they we're never planned on being let go on Oct 1. So while these LOAs surely helped save money, it seems Delta made a pre-determined investment in keeping their jobs. The optics of not furloughing while unionized FAs at peer airlines do, is an incredible tool to build goodwill and morale, and ward of the AFA union drive. Couple that with Delta pilots receiving WARN act & furlough letters, even before they had a chance to negotiate retirement and leaves of absence.

Why did Delta burn $50 Million into more shares of Korean right as the pandemic hit, or defer 100s of millions from Virgin while they were in cash savings mode? Because, it is a long-term, strategic investment. Carrying the cost of extra FAs for 6 months is a small strategic investment, which will in the long run pay dividends as they'll be able to tout their actions for years as proof their FAs don't need an employment contract. What makes this labor investment even less risky for DL is the fact a CARES 2 may pass, giving those FAs the same security over the exact same period of time. But by promising early, they can get the goodwill credit even if the taxpayers foot the bill. Kind of like how they took $5.4B CARES 1 money for wages, then convinced thousands of FAs to go on leave and let Delta keep that money. They thoroughly explained how they could double dip the tax-payers for unemployment, and most would get a raise (~5k/mo)! Win for them, and Delta could save those dollars for labor costs beyond OCT 1. They'll say the same thing again if CARES 2 passes.

*The pilot workgroup COVID infection rate was quoted as highest from the VP of Flight Operations in a memo.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:11 pm

^Nailed it^

Thanks also for the Flight Ops reference. I’ll check it out when I go back in.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Prost
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:19 pm

AA says their FAs and Pilots have lower Covid infection rates than the general population. I imagine it would be similar at all the airlines. I will say that I’ve seen a lot of non-mask wearing in the cockpit.
 
dtwpilot225
Posts: 279
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:31 pm

Anyone have any solid info on the delivery schedules for the
A350
A339-900
A321 neo and ceo
A220?
Thanks
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:47 pm

Prost wrote:
AA says their FAs and Pilots have lower Covid infection rates than the general population. I imagine it would be similar at all the airlines. I will say that I’ve seen a lot of non-mask wearing in the cockpit.


DL has said the same for it's workforce as a whole, but I haven't seen any workgroup-specific stats.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
n9801f
Posts: 234
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:03 pm

    Cactusjuba wrote:
    Why did Delta burn $50 Million into more shares of Korean right as the pandemic hit, or defer 100s of millions from Virgin while they were in cash savings mode? Because, it is a long-term, strategic investment. Carrying the cost of extra FAs for 6 months is a small strategic investment, which will in the long run pay dividends as they'll be able to tout their actions for years as proof their FAs don't need an employment contract. What makes this labor investment even less risky for DL is the fact a CARES 2 may pass, giving those FAs the same security over the exact same period of time. But by promising early, they can get the goodwill credit even if the taxpayers foot the bill. Kind of like how they took $5.4B CARES 1 money for wages, then convinced thousands of FAs to go on leave and let Delta keep that money. They thoroughly explained how they could double dip the tax-payers for unemployment, and most would get a raise (~5k/mo)! Win for them, and Delta could save those dollars for labor costs beyond OCT 1. They'll say the same thing again if CARES 2 passes.

    Your comments certainly don't make us taxpayers want our hard-earned money to go to CARES 2!

    You'd probably best stick to your day job - I don't think Public Relations or Government Relations would use your arguments to win support.

    Losing other people's money is irresponsible and in some cases borders on dishonesty.

      -- You celebrate Delta's loss of 4 BILLION dollars in overseas investments, for which public funds (CARES) compensated?
      -- You think it's good business that Delta carried a bloated staff far in excess of what it actually needs, at taxpayers' expense?
      -- You want us taxpayers to pay for Delta's labor relations problems in avoiding getting a Flight Attendant Union?

    I disagree strongly with all the above.

    United has been much more responsible - to shareholders and employees - in its response to Covid by facing reality and quickly taking difficult, necessary actions to stem losses.

    Even American's we'll-never-lose-money-again Dougie Parker has been more realistic than the Delta "wins" you point out.

    While I'm glad no Delta Flight Attendants were officially laid off, it's an unsustainable, short-term "win", for all the wrong reasons.

    I suspect you will rue your victory lap today should the crisis drag on and Delta file for bankruptcy, which is not at all outside the realm of possibility.

    Besides, if you've ever worked in a unionized company, you know that there are some advantages. The relationship between management and employees is formalized, structured, generally very professional, and often collaborative. There are highly unionized companies that give excellent customer service, have low costs, and are very profitable. Just look at Southwest Airlines to see all this in action.
     
    global1
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:17 pm

    So other than Southwest and perhaps Alaska, who are these examples of highly unionized, collaborative airlines with a culture of excellent customer service?

    Certainly not AA or UA.
     
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    DL747400
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:43 pm

    NWAESC wrote:
    DL747400 wrote:
    Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.


    I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s something as simple as a proximity issue?


    If that is true, then it certainly does lend credibility to the "Wear the damn mask" mantra, now doesn't it?
    From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

    All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
     
    n9801f
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    Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:04 pm

    global1 wrote:
    So other than Southwest and perhaps Alaska, who are these examples of highly unionized, collaborative airlines with a culture of excellent customer service?

    Certainly not AA or UA.

    There are examples both ways - there is not a clear correlation between unionization and service. Lufthansa may be the best airline on the planet. And it is so heavily unionized that even management employees have a union. Union-free People Express ran a spectacularly shoddy airline, routinely marooning passengers and baggage, though with a smile.

    And it's wrong to smugly dismiss AA and UA. Although AA has performed poorly recently under Parker, it has a decades-long record of reliability and consistency, usually exceeding Delta's performance numbers for much of the past 40 years - sometimes by a wide margin. And UA is much more polished, proper, and sophisticated in many aspects of its onboard service in international front cabin than Delta. High-value frequent business travelers notice this.

    But back to the main point.

    We taxpayers have no interest in bankrolling Delta's issues with Industrial and Labor Relations.

    The comments above seriously undercut Delta's case for CARES 2.
     
    global1
    Posts: 519
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:22 am

    My post is about U.S. carriers in 2020. Singapore, Qatar, Lufthansa, Qatar, etc.. aren’t relevant.

    That said, your opinions are either subjective or reminiscent of glory days gone by.
     
    n9801f
    Posts: 234
    Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:08 am

    @global1

    Yes, all opinions, including yours, are by their very definition subjective.

    If you work for Delta, then of course you don't think other airlines are as good as Delta.

    Perhaps frequent travelers have more objectivity than you in this area.

    In any case, it is a fact that Delta spent $4B on foreign investments, which rapidly soured, and then had to get huge sums from the US Treasury.

    And comments like CactusJuba's, gloating over taxpayer-funded losses for corporate intrigue, stir political enmity among us taxpayers about giving you another bailout.

    I say,

    US Taxpayers should not support CARES 2.

    By your own admission, you waste this money. And even if used properly it is just a crutch delaying inevitable, needed changes.
     
    fly4ever78
    Posts: 79
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:46 am

    2175301 wrote:
    NWAESC wrote:
    DL747400 wrote:
    Are you able to post your source for this information? Not doubting, I just would like to understand where that information originated.


    I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s something as simple as a proximity issue?


    Or maybe its just a total fabrication... 3 times does not sound like a plausible number to me.

    I need to see a credible source on this.


    As was noted, it was from high up in Flight Operations. I don't have permission to re-post internal communications and I will not do so. If you don't believe it, that is totally fine with me, just stating what we are being told.
     
    Cactusjuba
    Posts: 250
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:24 am

    n9801f wrote:
    Your comments certainly don't make us taxpayers want our hard-earned money to go to CARES 2!
    I am hard-working taxpayer too. I am not opposed to the idea of preventing mass layoffs for essential industries. But I don't like
    money earmarked for this used as a corporate bailout.

    You'd probably best stick to your day job - I don't think Public Relations or Government Relations would use your arguments to win support.

    Losing other people's money is irresponsible and in some cases borders on dishonesty. Agree. 5.4B was given to avoid layoffs in a period where travel was discouraged by the CDC. It's dishonest to take that, then push employees onto LOAs, AKA, unemployment, saying they'd get a raise to sit at home

      -- You celebrate Delta's loss of 4 BILLION dollars in overseas investments, for which public funds (CARES) compensated? I do not celebrate, I lament this
      -- You think it's good business that Delta carried a bloated staff far in excess of what it actually needs, at taxpayers' expense? Lay-offs of tens of thousands doesn't save taxpayers much when they get put on unemployment, Obamacare and other government programs. Of that 5.4B CARES money, your still looking at 20%-40% recycle back to the Gov via payroll taxes. Staffing is only fat until we get a vaccine. With that and ~20% of DL employees retiring, staffing should be reasonable. Airline crews are expensive to build up and train. Furloughing extra staff, say pilots, is cost negative for less then 12-24 months.
      -- You want us taxpayers to pay for Delta's labor relations problems in avoiding getting a Flight Attendant Union?
    Nope. They should use it like Congress intended. Keep people in place, staff for the post-COVID world in support for a strong National Air Transport system

    I disagree strongly with all the above.

    United has been much more responsible - to shareholders and employees - in its response to Covid by facing reality and quickly taking difficult, necessary actions to stem losses.

    Even American's we'll-never-lose-money-again Dougie Parker has been more realistic than the Delta "wins" you point out.

    While I'm glad no Delta Flight Attendants were officially laid off, it's an unsustainable, short-term "win", for all the wrong reasons.

    I suspect you will rue your victory lap today should the crisis drag on and Delta file for bankruptcy, which is not at all outside the realm of possibility.

    Besides, if you've ever worked in a unionized company, you know that there are some advantages. The relationship between management and employees is formalized, structured, generally very professional, and often collaborative. There are highly unionized companies that give excellent customer service, have low costs, and are very profitable. Just look at Southwest Airlines to see all this in action.
     
    Cactusjuba
    Posts: 250
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:25 am

    global1 wrote:
    So other than Southwest and perhaps Alaska, who are these examples of highly unionized, collaborative airlines with a culture of excellent customer service?

    Certainly not AA or UA.


    Don't forget Jetblue & Hawaiian. And those are just FA unions. Better question, who isn't unionized? Answer: Just Delta. I think Skywest is the only pilot group in the US without one.
    Here is Delta's motivation to avoid FA furloughs:
    https://prospect.org/labor/coronavirus- ... -at-delta/


    Creating strong culture and morale is the responsibility of leaders, not front-line troops. Union or not has little to do with that.
     
    Babyshark
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    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:29 am

    Delta doesn’t t know what the rate is. A lot of us refuse to go get tested. Very small fraction wear masks in the cockpit. Those who do are where we have had some screw ups due to poor and muffled communication during critical phases of flight like push, taxi, takeoff roll, climb, descent, approach and landing, and taxi in. Oh and walk around. Wait til you have to talk to a ramper with the PACKs screaming. That’s why those who care about flight safety do not wear them and flight ops and FAA do not require them.

    DAL is upset at the pilots for a lot of things and one of them is for not submitting to company testing. Nothing more. Just middle fingers everywhere. And we may wear the masks when FAs come up because one thing we have learned is we are not on the same team. It’s all for show. FAs writing pilots up for having the mask below their nose so they don’t have to fly around with a headache makes you realize keep it to the bare work minimum.

    Besides. You can wear rubber gloves and the dirty mask all day, if a coworker tests come back positive even with them completely asymptomatic and then having a negative retest, you are still out for 14 days. So why bother.
     
    joeblow10
    Posts: 462
    Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:43 am

    Babyshark wrote:
    Delta doesn’t t know what the rate is. A lot of us refuse to go get tested. Very small fraction wear masks in the cockpit. Those who do are where we have had some screw ups due to poor and muffled communication during critical phases of flight like push, taxi, takeoff roll, climb, descent, approach and landing, and taxi in. Oh and walk around. Wait til you have to talk to a ramper with the PACKs screaming. That’s why those who care about flight safety do not wear them and flight ops and FAA do not require them.

    DAL is upset at the pilots for a lot of things and one of them is for not submitting to company testing. Nothing more. Just middle fingers everywhere. And we may wear the masks when FAs come up because one thing we have learned is we are not on the same team. It’s all for show. FAs writing pilots up for having the mask below their nose so they don’t have to fly around with a headache.

    Besides. You can wear rubber gloves and the dirty mask all day, if a coworker tests come back positive even with them completely asymptomatic and then having a negative retest, you are still out for 14 days. So why bother.


    Couldn’t agree more on the safety piece. It’s impossible to communicate with the cashier at McDonald’s behind her plexiglass and mask, let alone when you’re flying an airliner or any plane for that matter.

    I have a feeling the infection rates aren’t that much higher at pilots at other airlines, it’s just that at DL, the company testing, which some opted into, detected more than the nonexistent company wide testing at other carriers.
     
    cvsirls
    Posts: 11
    Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:49 pm

    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:05 pm

    Oop,
    Some of y'all are some real Delta haters, and it shows.
    Let Delta, and its employees have this win! They did good to avoid layoffs in the FA group. Congratulations!
    Everything positive turns into a negative because of some of y'alls silly hatred for an airline, and how it conducts its business.
    Maybe if more time was spent on corporate/employee relations and the business, instead of focusing on delta, we wouldn't be losing our damn jobs come October 1st.
    Congrats Delta FA's!!!!
     
    CobaltScar
    Posts: 762
    Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

    Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

    Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:17 pm

    What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

    Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

    B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

    Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

    United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

    Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
    American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

    Interesting.

    Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.
    Last edited by CobaltScar on Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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