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n9801f
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:29 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:27 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
I do not celebrate, I lament this...
<etc...>

Your clarifications are constructive and sincerely appreciated.
Thank you.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1035
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:46 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

Interesting.

Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.

You have factored presence of widebodies in UA/AA/DL's fleets, haven't you?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:56 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

Interesting.

Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.


You do realize that Jetblue and Southwest fly soley narrowbodies almost always on routes <4hrs? Legacy carriers fly fleets of large narrowbodies and widebodies on medium-long haul routes. Logically they have more FAs divided by the total fleet count. That's like saying Mesa Airlines has less FAs per plane than Jetblue, so Jetblue must have bloated staffing.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

Interesting.

Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.

You have factored presence of widebodies in UA/AA/DL's fleets, haven't you?


Yes of course, and with the widebody traffic down so much, it exacerbates the problem.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:26 pm

N373NW (A320) scheduled to depart storage at BHM for SAL tomorrow as DL9937.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KBHM/MSLP
 
Prost
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:34 pm

UA, AA and DL all have widebodies which require more FAs than 737s and A320s.
 
cessna2
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:26 pm

Looks like DL will be taking delivery of 17 new aircraft in September.

6 A220-100

4 A220-300: Will be parked upon delivery

3 A321

2 A330NEO

2 A350

Good news if you ask me. Almost bet these are replacements for the 737-700 and some of the 777s.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:26 pm

Babyshark wrote:
Delta doesn’t t know what the rate is. A lot of us refuse to go get tested..


Just out of curiosity, why do a lot of you refuse to be tested?
 
tootallsd
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:02 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:59 pm

This topic is very frustrating. I have watched over the many weeks and the content does not align with the title. There is really no significant discussion about what Delta may look like in 2022 or beyond. There is a lot of arguing that things will be normal in Jan 2021 and everything is coming back, planes coming out of the desert, FA ratios, furloughs, but almost nothing about the title.
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:27 pm

Agreed.

Part of the problem is that everything gets thrown into “Delta plans to emerge into a smaller carrier” when some topics, such as “Delta announces no F/a furloughs” deserve their own or a different thread.

Delta, as all airlines, will emerge smaller than they were going into spring of 2020. It’s going to take some time , certainly beyond 2021, for some secondary routes to come back, if they do at all.

Jv’s will become even more important. The LATAM JV is moving forward as is Aeromexico, WestJet, Korean, and of course AirFrance/Klm and Virgin Atlantic.On the other hand, the joint venture with Virgin Australia has been ‘paused’ as their restructuring will see them emerge as a domestic carrier for the time being.

Who knows what scenarios may play out with Emirates,Etihad, or additional consolidation/partnerships in North America.

Delta is shedding fleet types and older models to modernize and simplify their fleet. Facility projects in LGA, LAX, SLC and JFK are going forward or being accelerated.

Delta will continue to focus on marketing themselves as a premium product.

Interesting times ahead.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:00 pm

cvsirls wrote:
Oop,
Some of y'all are some real Delta haters, and it shows.
Let Delta, and its employees have this win! They did good to avoid layoffs in the FA group. Congratulations!
Everything positive turns into a negative because of some of y'alls silly hatred for an airline, and how it conducts its business.
Maybe if more time was spent on corporate/employee relations and the business, instead of focusing on delta, we wouldn't be losing our damn jobs come October 1st.
Congrats Delta FA's!!!!



I agree!! Congrats Delta for saving jobs!!! Delta FAs do an amazing job and are some of the best service wise. I avoided AA due to its awful service. Was never treated very well on AA during the good times of the last decade. Always sad to see people lose jobs though. Good to see the planning at Delta paying off.
 
jbmitt
Posts: 659
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:04 pm

cessna2 wrote:
Looks like DL will be taking delivery of 17 new aircraft in September.

6 A220-100

4 A220-300: Will be parked upon delivery

3 A321

2 A330NEO

2 A350

Good news if you ask me. Almost bet these are replacements for the 737-700 and some of the 777s.


DL won’t have crews to operate the new A220 deliveries or existing planes. Many of the FOs will be furloughed and training of crews displaced from other aircraft will take a while.
 
tofur
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:31 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

Interesting.

Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.

You have factored presence of widebodies in UA/AA/DL's fleets, haven't you?


Yes of course, and with the widebody traffic down so much, it exacerbates the problem.


Hi CobaltScar, I think it is simpler to equate the difference to international flying, rather than just widebody flying, as Boeing 757/738, Airbus 319/321Neo, and even the 7M8 when flying were doing transatlantic crossings.

For example an 80 hour block month could be the following:
Eight 10 hour transon turns equal to working 8 days.
Five 16 hour North America to Europe layover trips equal to working 15 days.

So the cabin crew working international trips take almost twice as many days to fulfill their hours as opposed to those working turns as an example. Therefore it does make sense as AA/DL/UA operate a larger international portfolio compared to Southwest and Jetblue. When Jetblue starts flying transatlantic, their staffing numbers will increase as well.
 
twicearound
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:49 am

CobaltScar wrote:
What is the ratio of FAs to flown hours at Delta compared to United/American? If you have 10,000 zombie FAs on the lists that don't do anything but go to recurrent every year because there are no flying minimums, it could explain why there are so many more furloughs at United/American. They are way overstaffed at least on the books, with FAs that never fly.

Another reason why FAs at all airlines have such a high participation in the early outs and leave of absence programs is a large percentage of FAs don't need the income. Its a side hobby or a second career for people already financial stable.

B6 for example has around 21 FAs on staff for each airplane in the fleet, roughly. They are known to be efficient with their staffing and run a hot operation. I'm willing to bet the ratio is far higher at SWA and the big three that let FAs languish on their seniority lists for years without working a single flight.

Edit: some quick goole research shows that SWA basically identical ratio to B6, 21 FAs per aircraft in fleet. Interesting. But then again they don't get 24/7 use out of their aircraft like B6 does.

United shows 25,000 FAs and fleet of 786. So 32 FAs per aircraft.

Delta showing ratio of 30 FAs per aircraft
American showing ratio of also 30 FA per aircraft

Interesting.

Moral of the story: The big three are all horribly overstaffed and Delta may well just be using its power as a non contract carrier to spread hours so thin they don't have to furlough, yet.


Aren’t you forgetting that the big 3 operate aircraft that require 10+ FA for every segment? Running a complex legacy airline with MANY different fleet types is different than LCC’s.
To your point about hours. DL has not gone below 70 hours for a monthly schedule value for FA’s since the beginning of the pandemic. Commitment has already been made that will remain the case moving forward.
And as a FA let me tell you is is EXTREMELY rare for someone to do this as a “hobby” or side gig. I fly with more people that are the primary earners in their household or single income people. You obviously know little about this profession, because none of us do it for “fun”.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:41 am

tootallsd wrote:
This topic is very frustrating. I have watched over the many weeks and the content does not align with the title. There is really no significant discussion about what Delta may look like in 2022 or beyond. There is a lot of arguing that things will be normal in Jan 2021 and everything is coming back, planes coming out of the desert, FA ratios, furloughs, but almost nothing about the title.


Agree. This thread has run its course. It’s turned into “What’s Happening at Delta This Week.” I think it’s time for it to be locked.

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