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CRJ5000
Posts: 85
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:33 am

acavpics wrote:
CRJ5000 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

Business travel won't die, but it can and will likely change.


In what ways?


The variety and quality of e-commerce products is significantly better and more widely accepted than 20,10, even 5 years ago. This crisis has many corporations and companies using these products for the first time. I'd have to imagine at least some of them realize "Hey, this is actually pretty convenient and cost effective."
And as far as biotech industry, it is still a small slice for a limited time based on this event. Even if it drags on a year - I'm thinking about after this passes completely.
It could go either way, and no one can know for sure. It would be naive to dismiss it as a possibility though.
 
questions
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:37 am

[quote="WidebodyPTV"]I told the story earlier of one of my 1040 clients... /quote]

What’s a “1040 client”?

I agree that there’s a generation who will experience an economic downturn for the first time and be shocked.

In a lot of sectors, including commercial aviation, business just does not bounce back. How many years did DL use plastic cups in First Class?
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 263
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:16 am

CRJ5000 wrote:
[The variety and quality of e-commerce products is significantly better and more widely accepted than 20,10, even 5 years ago. This crisis has many corporations and companies using these products for the first time. I'd have to imagine at least some of them realize "Hey, this is actually pretty convenient and cost effective."


You severely underestimate the value companies place on building relationships, networking and fraternizing. The companies that spend the most on business travel... also have the most advanced, sophisticated hardware/software available.

acavpics wrote:
Funny how people are hollering about finance and IT while nobody on here has mentioned the immense business related travel for the biotech/bioengineering industries after this crisis. Because, you know, a vaccine(s) should be on its way. Maybe some anti-viral treatment as well? - All that requires immense collaboration from members multiple businesses, many of whom would need to travel.


There's oodles of industries that travel extensively for work. I talk about finance since it's the one I'm most familiar with.

questions wrote:

What’s a “1040 client”?


Sorry; it's an individual I do tax/finance planning for.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:48 am

tphuang wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
tphuang wrote:
None of this really adjusts to how much things have changed in the past 2 weeks.
Sure auditors may never be replaced, but that travel could be significantly downsized. You get them added to your VPN and your IT can control exactly what they can see and have access to. Believe me, all the companies have taken this time to make their WFH a lot more robust and easy to monitor.
All those consultants that need to fly in every week before this. Now, you have them fly in once a month and the rest of time, they can work from home. Why would companies continue to pay for their travel and hotel expenses on top of their consulting fees.
As for within company travel, that's the one I'm afraid going to get cut the hardest. Before, I might be able to justify getting everyone together in place to work out a problem. But once everyone has gotten used to tele-conferencing, it's going to be a lot harder to convince the bosses I need to fly last minute somewhere to do this.
As for employee perk, that's getting replaced by amazon coupons. I'm serious here.
The old school, conservative companies are going out of business if you haven't noticed. 3.3 million jobless claim this week while amazon is adding 150k jobs. The tech companies are sucking in all the money and the brick/motar establishment won't be able to recover from this.


None of the factors I mentioned will change in the near future; the old school, conservative companies dominate NYC, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. and no, they're not going out of business. As we saw in the past, business travel will be restricted in the near future but it will rebound. E.g. instead of traveling to Orlando for corporate training and continuing education programs this year, companies may bring those programs in-house or send employees to local day programs. But those trips to Orlando, Las Vegas, etc. are considered essential toward recruitment and retention -- they'll be back.

A trip to Orlando will be completely out of reach for more than half the population for the interim -- these are the people who accounted for the lion's share of those jobless claims. As I mentioned earlier, there will be a strong faction of people who weren't even impacted by this who will choose staycations out of precaution. And it's quite possible that people under 30 will never go back to their freespending ways, just as people in their 30s did in response to the Great Recession.


I don't know who are these old school, conservative companies in NYC that you are referring to, but all the big financial firms during this time have all their employees work from home. And frankly, all the old school sales trading type are getting a taste of working from home for the first time in their lives. A lot of them probably had to rely on their children to have it set up, but that's all set up now. These folks are getting a whole new outlook on interacting from home through technology vs at work/face to face. This has been a genie out of the bottle moment for them. This was always going to happen. Coronavirus just sped things up by probably 20 years.

You know what's essential for retention and recruitment? Flexible work schedule, short commute, assisted child care. People are finding out that working from home is ticking a lot of these boxes.

I really don't think people are going to be that excited to travel for non-essential work reasons as long as coronavirus threat is out there and that will be the backdrop for a while.


Agreed. Good luck telling employees they must return to the office if they've gotten all of their work requirements done from home during this crisis. There is simply no reason for it. It will also save the company a lot of money on real estate.
 
flyguy89
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:30 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
tphuang wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

None of the factors I mentioned will change in the near future; the old school, conservative companies dominate NYC, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. and no, they're not going out of business. As we saw in the past, business travel will be restricted in the near future but it will rebound. E.g. instead of traveling to Orlando for corporate training and continuing education programs this year, companies may bring those programs in-house or send employees to local day programs. But those trips to Orlando, Las Vegas, etc. are considered essential toward recruitment and retention -- they'll be back.

A trip to Orlando will be completely out of reach for more than half the population for the interim -- these are the people who accounted for the lion's share of those jobless claims. As I mentioned earlier, there will be a strong faction of people who weren't even impacted by this who will choose staycations out of precaution. And it's quite possible that people under 30 will never go back to their freespending ways, just as people in their 30s did in response to the Great Recession.


I don't know who are these old school, conservative companies in NYC that you are referring to, but all the big financial firms during this time have all their employees work from home. And frankly, all the old school sales trading type are getting a taste of working from home for the first time in their lives. A lot of them probably had to rely on their children to have it set up, but that's all set up now. These folks are getting a whole new outlook on interacting from home through technology vs at work/face to face. This has been a genie out of the bottle moment for them. This was always going to happen. Coronavirus just sped things up by probably 20 years.

You know what's essential for retention and recruitment? Flexible work schedule, short commute, assisted child care. People are finding out that working from home is ticking a lot of these boxes.

I really don't think people are going to be that excited to travel for non-essential work reasons as long as coronavirus threat is out there and that will be the backdrop for a while.


Agreed. Good luck telling employees they must return to the office if they've gotten all of their work requirements done from home during this crisis. There is simply no reason for it. It will also save the company a lot of money on real estate.

I don't know about that. Anecdotal but all my colleagues and everyone I've been talking to absolutely HATES working from home, and specifically wondering how some people actually like and choose to do it. We all can't wait to go back to an actual desk at a real office and actually collaborate in person.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:11 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I don't know who are these old school, conservative companies in NYC that you are referring to, but all the big financial firms during this time have all their employees work from home. And frankly, all the old school sales trading type are getting a taste of working from home for the first time in their lives. A lot of them probably had to rely on their children to have it set up, but that's all set up now. These folks are getting a whole new outlook on interacting from home through technology vs at work/face to face. This has been a genie out of the bottle moment for them. This was always going to happen. Coronavirus just sped things up by probably 20 years.

You know what's essential for retention and recruitment? Flexible work schedule, short commute, assisted child care. People are finding out that working from home is ticking a lot of these boxes.

I really don't think people are going to be that excited to travel for non-essential work reasons as long as coronavirus threat is out there and that will be the backdrop for a while.


Agreed. Good luck telling employees they must return to the office if they've gotten all of their work requirements done from home during this crisis. There is simply no reason for it. It will also save the company a lot of money on real estate.

I don't know about that. Anecdotal but all my colleagues and everyone I've been talking to absolutely HATES working from home, and specifically wondering how some people actually like and choose to do it. We all can't wait to go back to an actual desk at a real office and actually collaborate in person.


That maybe so. But if it's proven that people can work together remotely effectively, then there is no reason to buy a bunch of transcon/intercontinental J fares to bring people together on a work project. Now, a lot of these travel will be down to essential travel.

I can tell you as a young parent, I'm going to be spending a lot more time working from home so I can be close to my kids after this. And I think a lot more people in wall street will be working from home after this assuming their bosses allow it.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:23 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delta has asked ground employees to reduce their hours to three or four days a week.

https://viewfromthewing.com/delta-reduc ... ary-leave/


LOL at "Asked"
What a coincidence, it's roughly 20%. Just like 2005!


Would you prefer a furlough notice? :roll:
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:36 pm

Its not that all travel will be replaced but some will and some will be delayed. This thing will not end quickly but linger with occasional flair ups.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:10 pm

DL747400 wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delta has asked ground employees to reduce their hours to three or four days a week.

https://viewfromthewing.com/delta-reduc ... ary-leave/


LOL at "Asked"
What a coincidence, it's roughly 20%. Just like 2005!


Would you prefer a furlough notice? :roll:

It’s going to happen anyhow.

I’d prefer the security of a CBA and a clear cut process and not be an employee at will.
 
nwadeicer
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:40 pm

DL747400 wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delta has asked ground employees to reduce their hours to three or four days a week.

https://viewfromthewing.com/delta-reduc ... ary-leave/


LOL at "Asked"
What a coincidence, it's roughly 20%. Just like 2005!


Would you prefer a furlough notice? :roll:


Let's see, hmm. In 2005 I received a roughly 20% cut in pay. Shortly after I received a furlough for about 10 months, so your point is. This bailout package says the airlines cannot furlough anybody until September 30th. Wanna bet what happens come October 1st? And I appreciate the CEO forgoing 6 months of his year salary, which is approximately 3%. No idea how he will get by but I wish him all the luck!
I miss the Red Tail
 
rjbesikof
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:12 pm

What could DL do with its wide bodies if it does emerge a "smaller carrier"?
 
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N717TW
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:14 pm

NateGreat wrote:
If non-hub/focus city to Europe are at risk, such as RDU-CDG, TPA-AMS, and IND-CDG, then I wonder if the upcoming BOS-LGW is at risk. Especially since that single 757 will be the only DL flight to LGW and PHL-LHR on the 757 ended up being a fail.


PHL-LHR was slot squatting by DL. AA had to give up that LHR slot (was from US, who had bought it from AZ) b/c of the monopoly with BA and whoever took it over had to operate PHL-LHR for a period of time (I think it was 3 IATA seasons but it could have been less or it could have been full two years as I don't remember) before the slot become "free" or "open" for the new carrier to operate to/from another city to LHR.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:16 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
What could DL do with its wide bodies if it does emerge a "smaller carrier"?


They are sending them to the scrap yards. Many of the older 767-300s and even some of the 777s will never see a flight on DL again...some will never see a flight again period.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:34 pm

N717TW wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
What could DL do with its wide bodies if it does emerge a "smaller carrier"?


They are sending them to the scrap yards. Many of the older 767-300s and even some of the 777s will never see a flight on DL again...some will never see a flight again period.

767-300ERs, yes. Who said anything about the 777s?
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:53 pm

NateGreat wrote:
N717TW wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
What could DL do with its wide bodies if it does emerge a "smaller carrier"?


They are sending them to the scrap yards. Many of the older 767-300s and even some of the 777s will never see a flight on DL again...some will never see a flight again period.

767-300ERs, yes. Who said anything about the 777s?



The 767-300ER aircraft, especially the younger GE powered ones, will most likely become freighters.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:13 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
In general, people aren't as productive, they're not as responsive, they don't collaborate as well and they don't learn from each other as much.


...and they check airliners.net more often... Talking about a friend, of course... :biggrin:
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:37 am

nwadeicer wrote:
This bailout package says the airlines cannot furlough anybody until September 30th. Wanna bet what happens come October 1st?


Anyone that thinks it won't is very naive. If you haven't already, make sure you're very familiar with the company's RIF policy (yes, DL really does have one). Hopefully, neither of us will need it.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
danipawa
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:00 am

Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:12 am

danipawa wrote:
Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?


Why? They're not even accepting their own orders.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:55 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?


Why? They're not even accepting their own orders.

Agreed. It is all about cash flow right now. Aircraft take months to change hands. DL, once they return to profit will have to weight the cost benefit of various opportunities. But that is a discussion for August or later.

Lightsaber
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kavok
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:54 am

acavpics wrote:
CRJ5000 wrote:


In what ways?


Let’s fast forward to fall 2020. A large percentage of the population is probably still not going to want to fly. Here is why:

The surge of hospital visits that overwhelmed the system in Spring 2020 has thankfully passed, but a vaccine is still another 6months to a year away. Much of the lockdown measures have been lifted, but with the cooler Fall months coming, many are concerned about a second wave of outbreaks. It is not that many people aren’t allowed to fly, but they are not going to want to fly.

Among those concerns, you have the 50+ crowd who mostly managed to avoid the virus by social distancing, and are fearful still of getting it. You will have a large number of 30 and under crowd who may have had the virus, but didn’t have severe enough symptoms to qualify for the limited testing, and thus they don’t know whether they actually had it or not (and most will likely assume they didn’t).

Point being, there is going to be a lot of people next fall who are going to be fearful still of getting the virus (or transmitting it). And they are not going to want to get in a confined tube with strangers who may have the disease, and possibly having to 14-day quarantine themselves after the trip. Obviously some people won’t care, but a large percentage of the population will. Until the vaccine comes, a lot of people will simply choose not to fly, even if the lockdowns end.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:36 am

danipawa wrote:
Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?


I dont think Delta wants planes Interjet has owned.
 
onwFan
Topic Author
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:16 pm

Seems like DL has cut many non-hub destinations from BOS for the month of April - SFO, ORD, DCA, EWR, LAS, AUS, MKE, ORF, etc. with most other routes reduced to once daily.
 
danipawa
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:09 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?


Why? They're not even accepting their own orders.


to replace MD fleet ...
 
Boof02671
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:34 pm

danipawa wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Can Delta pickup some A321NEO returned by Interjet Mexico this days ?


Why? They're not even accepting their own orders.


to replace MD fleet ...

Less flights mean less planes
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:58 pm

onwFan wrote:
Seems like DL has cut many non-hub destinations from BOS for the month of April - SFO, ORD, DCA, EWR, LAS, AUS, MKE, ORF, etc. with most other routes reduced to once daily.


I think it is clear that many routes are going to be dropped altogether for April....even SAN-LAX & DFW/IAH-JFK are dropped for April, RDU/CVG are down to around 25 flights/day, ATL-MCO is down to 5 flights/day e.t.c

I think moving forward the important piece to watch is what routes will be dropped for the long-term, the consensus has changed rapidly in the past week or so, and now most believe this will be a longer term recovery than initially assumed.

So far, it appears DL is more willing to make cuts from BOS, CVG, & RDU, as opposed to SEA & LAX & that may mean that strategy carriers forward through the rest of the year & maybe into 2021
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Seems like DL has cut many non-hub destinations from BOS for the month of April - SFO, ORD, DCA, EWR, LAS, AUS, MKE, ORF, etc. with most other routes reduced to once daily.


I think it is clear that many routes are going to be dropped altogether for April....even SAN-LAX & DFW/IAH-JFK are dropped for April, RDU/CVG are down to around 25 flights/day, ATL-MCO is down to 5 flights/day e.t.c

I think moving forward the important piece to watch is what routes will be dropped for the long-term, the consensus has changed rapidly in the past week or so, and now most believe this will be a longer term recovery than initially assumed.

So far, it appears DL is more willing to make cuts from BOS, CVG, & RDU, as opposed to SEA & LAX & that may mean that strategy carriers forward through the rest of the year & maybe into 2021


It took a while from when DL first announced the 40% cuts and then to 70% cuts before they made this rounds of cuts. When they made the cuts that you noted a little while ago (I can't remember how long ago it was), it seemed to only have been 10 to 20% domestic capacity. My theory at the time was places like RDU/CVG were easy to chop down in short term, but that was not nearly enough if they wanted to get to something like 60% domestic cut., They had to decide which of the new hubs that they were going to take a sledge hammer to. It seemed all along that BOS was always the most redundant in their system given JFK's presence right down the road and the likely weakness in TATL traffic for a while. JFK's slot constraints should really not be an issue for a while after this. And unlike SEA, DL isn't going to gain/lose gates from adding/removing flights.

I would think LAX is the least likely out of BOS/SEA/LAX for them to put deep cuts into. It's the one they have the most to gain long term.
 
tjerome
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:23 pm

N717TW wrote:
rjbesikof wrote:
What could DL do with its wide bodies if it does emerge a "smaller carrier"?


They are sending them to the scrap yards. Many of the older 767-300s and even some of the 777s will never see a flight on DL again...some will never see a flight again period.


DL just put the entire 777 fleet through cabin mods. They won't be going to the scrapyard anytime soon.
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:56 pm

DL747400 wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Delta has asked ground employees to reduce their hours to three or four days a week.

https://viewfromthewing.com/delta-reduc ... ary-leave/


LOL at "Asked"
What a coincidence, it's roughly 20%. Just like 2005!


Would you prefer a furlough notice? :roll:


DL747400 who are you kidding everyone know furloughs are coming to all these airlines. That bailout package approved by congress is just delaying the inevitable. We all know that come October 1st even if the worst of COVID-19 is behind us this industry is not going to roar back to life. It will take time before this industry fully recovers this is why airlines like Delta and now United are say they will emerge as a smaller carrier.

DL thus far has been extremely successful in keeping the union out and while keeping many of their employees happy. It will be interesting to see how DL manages this crisis and the potential impact on their front line non management employees. United has already cut management employees pay but they just announced yesterday that union represented employees will not see any pay cuts through September 30th in accordance with the bailout agreement. Also for the month of April UA in a effort to reduce the number of employees at our NY and NJ airports will pay ground staff union employees an extra day to stay home. So in addition to their regular unpaid 2 days off UA ground employees in NY and NJ will have 3 days off but one of those days will be a paid day off. There is talk of UA expanding this system wide domestically for the month of April and perhaps May (if necessary) in a effort to keep employees safe. A United ramp agent at EWR died this week, he was 40 years old and only tested positive less than 10 days ago. We have several other employees in the NY and NJ area who have tested positive as well.

This is why I was surprised when DL's "asked" many of their ground employees to reduce their work schedule to 3 or 4 day work week but at the same time DL has decided not to pay them to stay home and stay safe. DL like UA will receive a bailout from the government we know furloughs are coming even here at UA but in the meantime until September 30 DL should have never "asked" their non-management front line ground staff to take a 20%-25% pay cut. If Delta wants to continue to keep most of their work force as at will employees and keep them happy then they need to do what is right by these employees. Just because DL pilots and dispatchers are union should not mean that other front line employees get screwed over, especially since DL is partaking in the bailout. That money should go to DL employees until September 30, 2020.
 
onwFan
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:03 pm

jayunited wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:

LOL at "Asked"
What a coincidence, it's roughly 20%. Just like 2005!


Would you prefer a furlough notice? :roll:


DL747400 who are you kidding everyone know furloughs are coming to all these airlines. That bailout package approved by congress is just delaying the inevitable. We all know that come October 1st even if the worst of COVID-19 is behind us this industry is not going to roar back to life. It will take time before this industry fully recovers this is why airlines like Delta and now United are say they will emerge as a smaller carrier.

DL thus far has been extremely successful in keeping the union out and while keeping many of their employees happy. It will be interesting to see how DL manages this crisis and the potential impact on their front line non management employees. United has already cut management employees pay but they just announced yesterday that union represented employees will not see any pay cuts through September 30th in accordance with the bailout agreement. Also for the month of April UA in a effort to reduce the number of employees at our NY and NJ airports will pay ground staff union employees an extra day to stay home. So in addition to their regular unpaid 2 days off UA ground employees in NY and NJ will have 3 days off but one of those days will be a paid day off. There is talk of UA expanding this system wide domestically for the month of April and perhaps May (if necessary) in a effort to keep employees safe. A United ramp agent at EWR died this week, he was 40 years old and only tested positive less than 10 days ago. We have several other employees in the NY and NJ area who have tested positive as well.

This is why I was surprised when DL's "asked" many of their ground employees to reduce their work schedule to 3 or 4 day work week but at the same time DL has decided not to pay them to stay home and stay safe. DL like UA will receive a bailout from the government we know furloughs are coming even here at UA but in the meantime until September 30 DL should have never "asked" their non-management front line ground staff to take a 20%-25% pay cut. If Delta wants to continue to keep most of their work force as at will employees and keep them happy then they need to do what is right by these employees. Just because DL pilots and dispatchers are union should not mean that other front line employees get screwed over, especially since DL is partaking in the bailout. That money should go to DL employees until September 30, 2020.

Excellent point! I bet there are many at DL who would be feeling better right now had they been unionized...
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:23 pm

In part of the squabbling over what what would be in the Coronas Relief Bill there was language that would have stopped union organizing of the airlines. Delta was brought up specifically as the airline that was requesting the banning of union organization. So now you know where Delta stands on unions. Come October if they do not like the way you comb your hair you will be furloughed. I remember last year a flight that was to make a return trip for Delta the flight attendants were running out of time "were asked to volunteer" to make the trip. Everyone "volunteered." Those that did not work the flight would have been told to turn in their badges as hey were handed a termination notice and walked off the property. The good part of a union is that you can't be disciplined or terminated for some frivolous reason. You are NOT an "at will employee." However, the union has to fight to keep a scum bag employed even though the employee should be let go. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:37 pm

at the moment? All of this getting smaller talk? Is an overreaction to the present situation, the Covid19 virus is on the Attack right now but at the same time? It's under attack as well. the Pharma industry is getting to work as this is probably going to eventually cut into their Hustle as well. Necessity being the mother of Invention?
I'll bet Glaxo, Merc Bayer and all the other big Pharma houses are grinding gears and burning midnight oil. We may be a LOT of things in the USA. But Stupid ain't one of them! We'll get through this. But until then? We may be biting the Bullet. But?? what kind of Bullet?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:54 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
In part of the squabbling over what what would be in the Coronas Relief Bill there was language that would have stopped union organizing of the airlines. Delta was brought up specifically as the airline that was requesting the banning of union organization. So now you know where Delta stands on unions. Come October if they do not like the way you comb your hair you will be furloughed. I remember last year a flight that was to make a return trip for Delta the flight attendants were running out of time "were asked to volunteer" to make the trip. Everyone "volunteered." Those that did not work the flight would have been told to turn in their badges as hey were handed a termination notice and walked off the property. The good part of a union is that you can't be disciplined or terminated for some frivolous reason. You are NOT an "at will employee." However, the union has to fight to keep a scum bag employed even though the employee should be let go. :old:


Well? is this anything unheard of that Delta would not want a Union to organize their people? What I will say? Delta management had BETTER tread lightly and before they ask their people to take cuts? Management had better take them and let it be KNOWN how much they took and for how Long they're taking it! If anyone gets a bonus while people are going out the door? Then they can expect and would DESERVE to see a Union in their near future!
 
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DL717
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:44 pm

NWAESC wrote:
DL717 wrote:
No. Pax loads are a dumpster fire, think 20% or less. They are all losing their asses right now.


Depending on the route, even that might be way too high. Not sure what it looks like on system-level anymore...


No doubt. Some smaller airports are probably single digit.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:24 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
In part of the squabbling over what what would be in the Coronas Relief Bill there was language that would have stopped union organizing of the airlines. Delta was brought up specifically as the airline that was requesting the banning of union organization. So now you know where Delta stands on unions. Come October if they do not like the way you comb your hair you will be furloughed. I remember last year a flight that was to make a return trip for Delta the flight attendants were running out of time "were asked to volunteer" to make the trip. Everyone "volunteered." Those that did not work the flight would have been told to turn in their badges as hey were handed a termination notice and walked off the property. The good part of a union is that you can't be disciplined or terminated for some frivolous reason. You are NOT an "at will employee." However, the union has to fight to keep a scum bag employed even though the employee should be let go. :old:



I get what you are saying unions do protect scum bag employees who should be terminated, but that isn't what this is about at this point in time.

United showed employees the letter they sent to Congress and the agreement all airlines came to which was to A) protect workers jobs and B) protect their pay. Management employees were excluded from this agreement which is why management employees here at UA were forced to take a paycut. Unless DL considers all nonunion employees management employees then DL is wrong to "ask" the front line employees to take a 20%-25% pay cut because the whole purpose of the bailout was to protect jobs and wages until October 1, 2020.

All I'm saying is Delta has built a reputation (or at least on this site DL has a reputation) for treating their employees union and nonunion right. We all know furloughs are coming to every U.S. carrier come October 1st but how DL treats their employees between now and then will define them for years to come. Asking at will, non-management employees after you've been bailed out to take a pay cut just because they are non-union is wrong.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:29 pm

jayunited wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
In part of the squabbling over what what would be in the Coronas Relief Bill there was language that would have stopped union organizing of the airlines. Delta was brought up specifically as the airline that was requesting the banning of union organization. So now you know where Delta stands on unions. Come October if they do not like the way you comb your hair you will be furloughed. I remember last year a flight that was to make a return trip for Delta the flight attendants were running out of time "were asked to volunteer" to make the trip. Everyone "volunteered." Those that did not work the flight would have been told to turn in their badges as hey were handed a termination notice and walked off the property. The good part of a union is that you can't be disciplined or terminated for some frivolous reason. You are NOT an "at will employee." However, the union has to fight to keep a scum bag employed even though the employee should be let go. :old:



I get what you are saying unions do protect scum bag employees who should be terminated, but that isn't what this is about at this point in time.

United showed employees the letter they sent to Congress and the agreement all airlines came to which was to A) protect workers jobs and B) protect their pay. Management employees were excluded from this agreement which is why management employees here at UA were forced to take a paycut. Unless DL considers all nonunion employees management employees then DL is wrong to "ask" the front line employees to take a 20%-25% pay cut because the whole purpose of the bailout was to protect jobs and wages until October 1, 2020.

All I'm saying is Delta has built a reputation (or at least on this site DL has a reputation) for treating their employees union and nonunion right. We all know furloughs are coming to every U.S. carrier come October 1st but how DL treats their employees between now and then will define them for years to come. Asking at will, non-management employees after you've been bailed out to take a pay cut just because they are non-union is wrong.

By law the union has to represent every employee. But if a company can’t discipline or terminate them properly, that’s the company’s fault.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:39 pm

@jayunitwd— I agree with all of your points.

FWIW, all DL management is taking a cut as well. The company is framing this as almost a war effort and one we’re all in together.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:52 pm

NWAESC wrote:
@jayunitwd— I agree with all of your points.

FWIW, all DL management is taking a cut as well. The company is framing this as almost a war effort and one we’re all in together.


the management also get most of their earnings from stock options, which would do the best if the stock prices come back up. If by saying 50% cut in their pay can justify cutting company payroll by 25%, that might lead to their stock prices go back up a little bit. That could be the difference between options in the money vs out of money.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:55 pm

That’s certainly possible.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Boof02671
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:57 pm

tphuang wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
@jayunitwd— I agree with all of your points.

FWIW, all DL management is taking a cut as well. The company is framing this as almost a war effort and one we’re all in together.


the management also get most of their earnings from stock options, which would do the best if the stock prices come back up. If by saying 50% cut in their pay can justify cutting company payroll by 25%, that might lead to their stock prices go back up a little bit. That could be the difference between options in the money vs out of money.

There are restrictions on executive compensation under the stimulus law for the airlines.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... -plan/amp/
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:04 am

Yes. For clarity, when I mentioned management. I had lower level people on mind, not the C-Suite.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:47 am

Ed is taking a 100% cut, next level officers (eg Glen Haunenstein, Paul Jacobson etc) are taking 50% cut, while next level directors/MDs (eg SVPs, VPs) are taking 25%. Board of Directors (external) are all foregoing their usual Directors fees.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:08 am

Rank and file taking a 20%-40% paycut is a higher percentage cut than an executive making six figures
 
Packson
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:24 am

panamair wrote:
Ed is taking a 100% cut, next level officers (eg Glen Haunenstein, Paul Jacobson etc) are taking 50% cut, while next level directors/MDs (eg SVPs, VPs) are taking 25%. Board of Directors (external) are all foregoing their usual Directors fees.


The devil is in the details. If Ed is not taking a paycheck for 6 months, the details are important. For instance, a 6 month pay cut from his roughly 900k salary is 450k. His salary is actually a very small part of his compensation. Last year he was roughly 16 million. So it sounds impressive to take a 6 month pay cut from "salary"....but does this cover his millions in stock? In theory Ed could only be forgoing 450k of an estimated 15-17 million.
 
panamair
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:43 am

Packson wrote:
panamair wrote:
Ed is taking a 100% cut, next level officers (eg Glen Haunenstein, Paul Jacobson etc) are taking 50% cut, while next level directors/MDs (eg SVPs, VPs) are taking 25%. Board of Directors (external) are all foregoing their usual Directors fees.


The devil is in the details. If Ed is not taking a paycheck for 6 months, the details are important. For instance, a 6 month pay cut from his roughly 900k salary is 450k. His salary is actually a very small part of his compensation. Last year he was roughly 16 million. So it sounds impressive to take a 6 month pay cut from "salary"....but does this cover his millions in stock? In theory Ed could only be forgoing 450k of an estimated 15-17 million.


In theory, his stocks are also worth a lot less now, no? And it will take a long time before it gets back up to over $60 at this point..
 
nwadeicer
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:00 am

panamair wrote:
Ed is taking a 100% cut, next level officers (eg Glen Haunenstein, Paul Jacobson etc) are taking 50% cut, while next level directors/MDs (eg SVPs, VPs) are taking 25%. Board of Directors (external) are all foregoing their usual Directors fees.


Actually, Ed is taking a 100% cut of his salary, for 6 months. Let's break it down a little. Now granted this was last years package however i'm sure it is close to this years.

Base pay: 891,667
Bonus+non equity incentive comp: 2,277,090
Total cash comp for the year-- 3,168,75

Stock award comp: 7,705,118
Option award value: 3,795,014
Total equity: 11,500,132

Total other: 313,559

Total compensation for 2019: 14,982,448

Ed is taking a cut of approximately 445,833 out of a combined 14,982,448, Basically the change you find underneath the seat of your car. Yet the employees of Delta have been "asked" heh heh, to take a pay cut of 25% of their pay for 3 months. Now you can, of course, take a 30 day Leave Of Absence and that satisfies the 90 day 25% pay cut. Or ride it out for 90 days which will take you to July, where you get two months back to normal before October 1st hits and the airlines don't have to honor the bailout requirements of no furloughs. Have a great day!
I miss the Red Tail
 
calt03
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:20 am

My prediction:

Delta becomes major shareholder in Virgin USA trains. Becomes rail operator instead of airline :P
Becomes an airline feeder for HSR, and int'l routes from HSR hubs only
Jokes.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:28 am

Provide a specific example.

NWAROOSTER wrote:
In part of the squabbling over what what would be in the Coronas Relief Bill there was language that would have stopped union organizing of the airlines. Delta was brought up specifically as the airline that was requesting the banning of union organization. So now you know where Delta stands on unions. Come October if they do not like the way you comb your hair you will be furloughed. I remember last year a flight that was to make a return trip for Delta the flight attendants were running out of time "were asked to volunteer" to make the trip. Everyone "volunteered." Those that did not work the flight would have been told to turn in their badges as hey were handed a termination notice and walked off the property. The good part of a union is that you can't be disciplined or terminated for some frivolous reason. You are NOT an "at will employee." However, the union has to fight to keep a scum bag employed even though the employee should be let go. :old:
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:45 am

nwadeicer wrote:
Or ride it out for 90 days which will take you to July, where you get two months back to normal before October 1st hits and the airlines don't have to honor the bailout requirements of no furloughs.


I think a lot of people don't fully grasp what's looming ahead.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
umichman
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Re: Delta plans to emerge a "smaller" carrier

Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:32 am

Midwestindy wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Seems like DL has cut many non-hub destinations from BOS for the month of April - SFO, ORD, DCA, EWR, LAS, AUS, MKE, ORF, etc. with most other routes reduced to once daily.


I think it is clear that many routes are going to be dropped altogether for April....even SAN-LAX & DFW/IAH-JFK are dropped for April, RDU/CVG are down to around 25 flights/day, ATL-MCO is down to 5 flights/day e.t.c

I think moving forward the important piece to watch is what routes will be dropped for the long-term, the consensus has changed rapidly in the past week or so, and now most believe this will be a longer term recovery than initially assumed.

So far, it appears DL is more willing to make cuts from BOS, CVG, & RDU, as opposed to SEA & LAX & that may mean that strategy carriers forward through the rest of the year & maybe into 2021


RDU and CVG seem to be taking it a lot harder than BOS. BOS still has flights to BNA, MCI, IND, PIT, PHL, JAX, CMH, and CLE in April. These are all cities that CVG or RDU will no longer have flights to in April (plus many others). They even still have BOS flights to BUF, RIC, and CHS in April which is pretty amazing to me.

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