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rj1385
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US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:42 pm

Staffing issues at ZNY causing flights diverted and stopped at origin airport for period of time Saturday after trainee tested positive.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/a ... 6Rumr9TKek
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: NYC Closed

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:45 pm

Seems like it has something to do with certain people testing positive.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: NYC Closed

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:02 pm

NYC is literally closed anyway.

This will effect crew more than pax as there are few pax on each flight sadly
 
flyby519
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Re: NYC Closed

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:05 pm

EVENT TIME: 21/1815 – 22/0300
***THIS CANCELS/REPLACES ADVZY 068***
ZNY/N90 IS NOW ABLE TO ACCEPT ARRIVALS. KJFK ARRIVALS VIA THE CAMRN
ARRIVAL CONTINUE TO BE STOPPED, BUT ALL OTHER ACFT DESTINED ZNY ARE
NOW RELEASED.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:20 pm

ZNY is no longer ATC zero, but they are utilizing escape routes from the NY metros. There is still a ground stop out for JFK.
 
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ua900
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:22 pm

So it finally hit a center instead of a tower. More of these to come over the 2-3 weeks I'm sure. Time for the FAA to think about upgraded procedures. NYC airspace can't turn into class E airspace
2020: AMS | BRU | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | IAH | LAX | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SFO | TXL
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:34 pm

ua900 wrote:
So it finally hit a center instead of a tower. More of these to come over the 2-3 weeks I'm sure. Time for the FAA to think about upgraded procedures. NYC airspace can't turn into class E airspace

ZID was hit first. They went ATC alert two nights ago, and were either on alert or ATC zero yesterday. Today, they remain on alert. About half of the areas are closed, the other half are on skeleton crews.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:12 pm

Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:30 pm

No, first military controllers are not enroute trained at all, let alone facility-specifically trained. Second, there aren’t that many and only provide terminal control at military facilities.

GF
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:31 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?

No. The military doesn't have enroute controllers, and they have no training on ERAM. The contingency in situations like this would be to keep aircraft low and fly tower enroute (one approach control to the next).
 
ATCtower
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:45 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?

No. The military doesn't have enroute controllers, and they have no training on ERAM. The contingency in situations like this would be to keep aircraft low and fly tower enroute (one approach control to the next).


Which only works for the eastern third of the country where approach controls cover most of that ground. West of the Mississippi this isn’t an option.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
32andBelow
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:00 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?

FAA controllers are the ones that control the military planes after they leave the base.
 
SPREE34
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:04 pm

USAF DOES have controllers that have been Center trained and certified. They go on a 4 year detail to centers. Obviously not enough of them to fill in, but those who have the training could quickly recert at the center they worked in.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
SPREE34
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:06 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?

FAA controllers are the ones that control the military planes after they leave the base.


Not always the case. Depends on the airspace and serving agency, same as military controllers provide service at many civilian airports.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
32andBelow
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:12 pm

SPREE34 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?

FAA controllers are the ones that control the military planes after they leave the base.


Not always the case. Depends on the airspace and serving agency, same as military controllers provide service at many civilian airports.
after they leave the RAPCON its Faa contrôle from coast to cost and sea to shining sea.
 
SPREE34
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:16 pm

Incorrect, but whatever makes you feel good.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
jdwfloyd
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:25 pm

We have plenty of previous military controllers, all of them are employed by the FAA. I've been an enroute controller for thirteen years and have never seen a center controller paid by the military or DOD. What facility currently does this? I've also never heard of any on a four year detail, maybe right after the the strike but not currently.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:00 pm

jdwfloyd wrote:
We have plenty of previous military controllers, all of them are employed by the FAA. I've been an enroute controller for thirteen years and have never seen a center controller paid by the military or DOD. What facility currently does this? I've also never heard of any on a four year detail, maybe right after the the strike but not currently.

I haven't either. ERAM isn't just something you can recert on overnight, much less sectors with complex airspace like the northeast. It practically takes a PhD to figure out make ERAM do what you want it to do sometimes.
 
jdwfloyd
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:39 pm

Even moving a controller from one ARTCC to another would be at least a six month process.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:27 pm

Thinking for the future and not necessarily right now: Would there be any way at all to have "crash course" training available to adjacent centers to pick up the slack for a neighboring center should it go down. Obviously this would require some IT changes to get radar feeds and communications to patch over to a different facility. Obviously all procedures and rules specific to that facility couldn't be covered in a crash course. But from a "basics" perspective a ZBW controller would have all of the same skills a ZNY controllers has. If you reduce the flow rate and revert to just basic control you can at least keep the facility open and some traffic moving. It seems like a huge point of failure to have regions of our national airspace be compromised by a single facility closure. An FAA controller should be able to work any facility when reverting down to the bare basics of controlling and separating. A reduced rate to account for the lack of local knowledge would be better than no rate at all.
 
MO11
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:16 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
An FAA controller should be able to work any facility when reverting down to the bare basics of controlling and separating.


Vectors, altitude separation, and speed control. And then whatever separation rules apply.

But remember that each center controller may only be certified to work one quarter of the airspace that the center owns. The controller that works the (Boston Center) area around Maine and northern New England never works the traffic over Connecticut, Long Island, or down the the Atlantic Coast. The airspace and procedures just get too complicated. When ZBW took over the ZNY sectors, it was more than a "crash course". Imagine learning procedures that relate to adjacent facilities, approach controls and satellite airports the center controls, then not using them until you're called to "pinch hit" four years later. If you take a month off, you're no longer certified on your own sectors.

And yes, running fiber from distant remote communications outlets and radars to other centers would be a pricey proposition.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:54 pm

Another example of how skill-specific and regulated aviation is compared to anything else. Outsiders just don’t grasp that fact.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:33 pm

Just an update: both New York Center and New York Oceanic remain on ATC alert. Indianapolis Center also remains on alert, with some areas still closed. MDW and LAS remain at ATC zero.

Total list of facilities with positive tests from either controllers or tech ops as of 3/22:
Chicago MDW
Indianapolis Center ZID
New York JFK
New York LGA
New York Center ZNY
Las Vegas LAS
Peoria (IL) PIA
Wilmington (DE) ILG

The thread title has been updated to consolidate discussion, since it's highly likely that more facilities will be affected.
 
Oilman
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:24 pm

Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:37 pm

Oilman wrote:
Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.


14 day quarantine for those affected
 
XRadar98
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:33 am

ilovepabst wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.


14 day quarantine for those affected


To highlight that, everyone that works in those buildings is affected. No staff, no controllers, no techs for 14 days.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:01 pm

Republic Airport in Farmingdale is the latest to be hit by the virus. The tower is at ATC zero, along with the continued closure of towers at MDW and LAS. ZNY and ZID continue to have significant restrictions in place.

https://libn.com/2020/03/22/covid-19-cl ... ort-tower/
 
kalvado
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:03 pm

Are there similar effects outside of US? I imagine drastically reduced traffic may make things less noticable, but yet...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:19 pm

kalvado wrote:
Are there similar effects outside of US? I imagine drastically reduced traffic may make things less noticable, but yet...

I haven't heard about facilities outside of the US being affected so far, but I'm sure there are some. Albeit perhaps not as noticeable as impacts to the northeast or oceanic airspace.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:51 pm

ilovepabst wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.


14 day quarantine for those affected


My wife works for an OB/GYN and they're on an A/B rotation. A works one week, B works the next. Never mix the A and Bs on the same shift. That way if someone on A gets sick, they switch to the B team and A is out for two weeks. And of course they have docs on call for deliveries.

I imagine for something that's staffed around the clock you'd need more than A/B, maybe A/B/C/D. I'm admittedly not smart enough to know if that's a legit possibility for ATC or not.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
planecane
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:37 pm

XRadar98 wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.


14 day quarantine for those affected


To highlight that, everyone that works in those buildings is affected. No staff, no controllers, no techs for 14 days.


For these critical jobs, why don't they test them without symptoms instead of self quarantine?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:03 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
My wife works for an OB/GYN and they're on an A/B rotation. A works one week, B works the next. Never mix the A and Bs on the same shift. That way if someone on A gets sick, they switch to the B team and A is out for two weeks. And of course they have docs on call for deliveries.

I imagine for something that's staffed around the clock you'd need more than A/B, maybe A/B/C/D. I'm admittedly not smart enough to know if that's a legit possibility for ATC or not.

A scheduled rotation and/or reduction in workforce would certainly help. Some trainees and nonessential personnel have been sent home, but staffing levels among certified controllers remains the same. Still having upwards of 90 people the building at any given time is not sufficient, in my opinion.

planecane wrote:
For these critical jobs, why don't they test them without symptoms instead of self quarantine?

We've been told that it's due to a lack of available tests. I believe the FAA is trying to secure some sort of priority when it comes to testing, but has thus far been unable to do so.
 
32andBelow
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:24 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
Oilman wrote:
Why is LAS and MDW ATC still closed? It seems like they’ve had enough time to sanitize the facility.


14 day quarantine for those affected


My wife works for an OB/GYN and they're on an A/B rotation. A works one week, B works the next. Never mix the A and Bs on the same shift. That way if someone on A gets sick, they switch to the B team and A is out for two weeks. And of course they have docs on call for deliveries.

I imagine for something that's staffed around the clock you'd need more than A/B, maybe A/B/C/D. I'm admittedly not smart enough to know if that's a legit possibility for ATC or not.

Some controllers have suggested “hurricane” crews that live in the facility for a week or two at a time.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:58 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Some controllers have suggested “hurricane” crews that live in the facility for a week or two at a time.


I retired from a Level 10 Terminal at age 46. I'd be happy to come back and grab a headset for a while if any ATC Terminal facility needed some short-term help. I'd do it for nothing too!
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:25 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:

My wife works for an OB/GYN and they're on an A/B rotation. A works one week, B works the next. Never mix the A and Bs on the same shift. That way if someone on A gets sick, they switch to the B team and A is out for two weeks. And of course they have docs on call for deliveries.

I imagine for something that's staffed around the clock you'd need more than A/B, maybe A/B/C/D. I'm admittedly not smart enough to know if that's a legit possibility for ATC or not.


That is essentially what is being done across Canada.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:45 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?
Best case would be airborne E-3 AWACS for the busiest sectors. The Navy had E-2s which could also be tasked if needed.
 
planecane
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:55 am

atcsundevil wrote:

planecane wrote:
For these critical jobs, why don't they test them without symptoms instead of self quarantine?

We've been told that it's due to a lack of available tests. I believe the FAA is trying to secure some sort of priority when it comes to testing, but has thus far been unable to do so.


The NBA managed to get tests for asymptomatic players, I'm sure the FAA could for air traffic controllers if they try hard enough.
 
dopplerd
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:00 am

Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:03 am

dopplerd wrote:
Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.


Yes, portions of ZID (Indianapolis center) are on alert.
From my cold, dead hands
 
pdp
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:26 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
dopplerd wrote:
Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.


Yes, portions of ZID (Indianapolis center) are on alert.


Do they not bandbox/merge sectors in this sort of situation?
 
ATCJesus
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Re: New York Center (ZNY) ATC Zero

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:31 am

UPS757Pilot wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Could the Air Force be brought in to be temporary staff to handle flights at a very reduced capacity?
Best case would be airborne E-3 AWACS for the busiest sectors. The Navy had E-2s which could also be tasked if needed.



This would never work. Non radar procedures from an adjacent facility would be much better than that ever happening.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:42 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
dopplerd wrote:
Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.


Yes, portions of ZID (Indianapolis center) are on alert.


ZID is better than it was over the weekend, though; large portions (most of the western half, and maybe more than that) are now open.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bigb
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:50 pm

dopplerd wrote:
Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.


Yes Indy Center has had portion of the airspace closed. It was bad last Friday as I was working turns out of PHL to Ohio all day and every leg required a reroute, phone calls/Acars to dispatchers, and calls to ops to take on additional fuel each leg. It was a PITA.
 
N212R
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:51 pm

planecane wrote:
The NBA managed to get tests for asymptomatic players, I'm sure the FAA could for air traffic controllers if they try hard enough.


Rather curious that...but not surprising. The NY money men have all the right contacts.

Have you noticed the media near blackout on news concerning the numerous NBA positive players? All of a piece
 
LONGisland89
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:55 pm

I'm astonished at the number of people that think an ATCer can just plug in and just work anywhere. It's not even a guarantee when it's done intra-facility. In the past, numerous ZNY Oceanic controllers have transferred to Domestic ZNY Areas and have washed out.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:02 pm

LONGisland89 wrote:
I'm astonished at the number of people that think an ATCer can just plug in and just work anywhere. It's not even a guarantee when it's done intra-facility. In the past, numerous ZNY Oceanic controllers have transferred to Domestic ZNY Areas and have washed out.

Agreed. It just isn't that simple. Every sector has unique challenges, particularly with SWAP season coming up.
 
bigb
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:13 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
LONGisland89 wrote:
I'm astonished at the number of people that think an ATCer can just plug in and just work anywhere. It's not even a guarantee when it's done intra-facility. In the past, numerous ZNY Oceanic controllers have transferred to Domestic ZNY Areas and have washed out.

Agreed. It just isn't that simple. Every sector has unique challenges, particularly with SWAP season coming up.


Don’t remind me about Swap season, not looking forward to it
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:36 pm

bigb wrote:
Don’t remind me about Swap season, not looking forward to it

I hate to say it, because a lot of people in the industry are going to be hurting, but with these traffic counts, it should be the easiest SWAP season on record. This might finally be the year that TMU has a plan (I'm kidding, of course there won't be a plan).
 
xjet
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:08 pm

pdp wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
dopplerd wrote:
Is there something closed over central/southern Ohio? There are no aircraft above 20,000 feet in that area. For example: NK1251, MSY to EWR, flew due north to Chicago and then due East to Newark. There doesnt appear to be weather in that region.


Yes, portions of ZID (Indianapolis center) are on alert.


Do they not bandbox/merge sectors in this sort of situation?


They can bandbox sectors within an area of specialty. Most ARTCCs are divided into 4-7 specialty areas which are further divided into sectors. Controllers are only certified to operate within one area of specialty. So what we are seeing in ZID are certain areas of specialty closed or significantly reduced in the amount of traffic they are handling.
 
CRJ5000
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Re: US ATC Impacts from Coronavirus Thread

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:12 pm

Has it now hit LGA? FAA reasoning is "Other / Staffing"
I know ZNY was impacted a couple days ago, but this one seems confined to LGA tower.

CTL ELEMENT: LGA
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1954Z
DELAY ASSIGNMENT MODE: UDP
ARRIVALS ESTIMATED FOR: 24/2200Z - 25/0259Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 24/2200Z - 25/0259Z
PROGRAM RATE: 12
FLT INCL: ALL CONTIGUOUS US DEP
DEP SCOPE: 1425
CANADIAN DEP ARPTS INCLUDED: CYHZ CYOW CYUL CYYZ CYTZ CYQB
DELAY ASSIGNMENT TABLE APPLIES TO: ZNY
MAXIMUM DELAY: 261
AVERAGE DELAY: 183
IMPACTING CONDITION: OTHER / OTHER
COMMENTS: ARR 04 DEP 31

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