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bob75013
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Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:18 pm

finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-halt-washington-state-production-164727956.html


"SEATTLE, March 23 (Reuters) - Boeing Co will halt production temporarily at its twin-aisle jetliner factory in Washington state due to the spread of coronavirus, the U.S. planemaker said on Monday, following a similar move by European rival Airbus SE.

Confirming an earlier Reuters report, Boeing added that a temporary operations shutdown will last 14 days beginning March 25.
Last edited by qf789 on Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Updated title for clarity
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:48 pm

So then, are they producing anything?

No MAXes, and now no widebodies... am I wrong?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
bob75013
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:07 pm

There's nothing in the article that says that Charleston is shutting down, but that would not surprise me at some point in the future.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:14 pm

According to The Seattle Times, Boeing is suspending all Puget Sound area production so that should mean the plants providing 787 parts (like the tail from Fredrickson, WA) would also be closing which means Charleston won't be able to build 787s once they go through whatever stocks they have on hand.

So this sounds like a shutdown of at least Boeing's Commercial Aviation production. Not sure how Defense & Space will be impacted.
Last edited by Stitch on Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trex8
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:15 pm

Well someone at Charleston has tested positive so they may end up being off line temporarily also at some point.

https://www.live5news.com/2020/03/23/bo ... pany-says/



By Patrick Phillips | March 23, 2020 at 5:10 AM EDT - Updated March 23 at 8:50 AM
CHARLESTON, S.C. (WCSC) - A Boeing South Carolina employee who works at the company’s airport campus in North Charleston has tested positive for the novel coronavirus.

This is the first case of COVID-19 confirmed at the facility, Boeing spokesperson Libba Holland said in a statement.

She said the teammate is now in quarantine and “receiving the care and treatment necessary for their recovery.”

“We have notified our teammates, are conducting thorough cleaning of the work areas and common spaces, and are following the advice of public health officials,” Holland said.
 
bob75013
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:47 pm

"Boeing said it will keep a 787 assembly line in South Carolina open at this time, as well as military and helicopter assembly lines near St. Louis and Philadelphia."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/business ... index.html
 
oldJoe
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:17 pm

Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !
 
HPRamper
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:31 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !

It is prudent. A bit late, in the opinion of many up here in the area. A lot of Boeing employees are pretty mad about it, that they had to come in to work when there were multiple confirmed cases there.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:59 pm

Yes, a bit late, but better than never ! I hope you and your family are fine and all of the Boeing staff ! I say this as an Airbus Fan !
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:25 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !


I'd say there are pros and cons to a shutdown (economic hardships lead to health risks, too), but if in doubt, being overly conservative about reducing exposure risk is the easier decision to justify.

One of the current leading estimates (including in a study released last week and cited as a reason for changes in both the US and UK postures for COVID-19 response) is for 0.9% fatality rate and eventually 80% infection of the population, if no interventions are taken. That would equate to roughly 1150 deaths among Boeing's 160,000 global employees.

That forecast was already outdated before it was published, because interventions were already being taken, including at Boeing, to increase separation, allow workers in vulnerable groups to take time off, improve hygiene and cleaning habits, and most critically, isolate suspected cases and their close contacts, including coworkers.

That 0.9% also includes the normal distribution in society of ages and underlying health conditions. However, those under age 50 are appear to have less than 1/6th the fatality risk as the overall average, while those from 60-69 appear to have 2/3 the fatality risk. The overwhelming majority of the risk is to those 60 and over, who almost certainly comprise a small proportion of Boeing's workforce, and again, who could be afforded specific protection without enacting a complete shutdown.

Assuming a uniform age distribution, that forecast would suggest ~250 deaths of people under 60 at Boeing. Considering other interventions are also being implemented, in addition to allowing time off for medically vulnerable employees, the consequences of continuing production would be expected to be even lower.

Of course, nobody is going to accept 250 deaths as trade for continuing production either. I'm only working out the numbers to try to help better understand the risks of ongoing production, not to downplay them.

Also, many of those forecast deaths would likely be due to infections contracted outside of work. Boeing's shutdown is just one of many interventions that are factors in controlling the risks.

Airbus may have to shutdown, too. They just completed a planned 4 day shutdown, but restarted today. France, Germany, and Spain have all been harder hit by infections than the US so far, and the UK has nearly as high of a rate.

(Reference: "Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) to reduce COVID-19 mortality and healthcare demand", Imperial College London, March 16, 2020)
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:07 am

Washington State's Governor just issued a "Shelter at Home" order for the state for the next two weeks, so that likely played a role in Boeing's two-week shutdown. Microsoft has been Work from Home for some two weeks now with the current end date planned around the same time as the "SaH" order is currently scheduled to end.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:33 am

Airbus only shut down for 4 days while new procedures were developed to keep employees safe, so it's not exactly the same thing.
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WaywardMemphian
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:05 pm

oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !


This has to be a joke, thousands you say. I didn't know folks at Boeing plants were all in their late 60s, 70s, and 80s. For all the death in Italy, they are all most old folk.
 
LJ
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:18 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !


This has to be a joke, thousands you say. I didn't know folks at Boeing plants were all in their late 60s, 70s, and 80s. For all the death in Italy, they are all most old folk.


It's not only about deaths. Those who have to be hospitalised due to COVID-19 aren't there for fun (and have to be there up to 3 weeks). Moreover, those persons will probably be out of work for at least 2 months. If you have to reply on your skilled workforce this isn't good for the company as well.
 
HPRamper
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:21 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !


This has to be a joke, thousands you say. I didn't know folks at Boeing plants were all in their late 60s, 70s, and 80s. For all the death in Italy, they are all most old folk.

Even if ZERO Boeing employees are over the age of 50 they would still be carrying that virus home to family. And to your point, reports that young people cannot be taken down by this are quite inaccurate.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:00 pm

LJ wrote:
WaywardMemphian wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
Folks, isn`t it a wise thing to do at this moment ? What Boeing will gain if thousands of there high skilled workers die ? Nothing at all !


This has to be a joke, thousands you say. I didn't know folks at Boeing plants were all in their late 60s, 70s, and 80s. For all the death in Italy, they are all most old folk.


It's not only about deaths. Those who have to be hospitalised due to COVID-19 aren't there for fun (and have to be there up to 3 weeks). Moreover, those persons will probably be out of work for at least 2 months. If you have to reply on your skilled workforce this isn't good for the company as well.

Exactly. These are some slightly older numbers from CDC but a significant number of patients under 65, especially in the 45 - 65 age bracket, had to be hospitalised and several ended up on the ICU. On average, 12% of all tested cases ended up in the hospital back in early March. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm
Even if only 50 % of all workers get infected, and only 1 % of those die or receive permanent disabilities, Boeing would lose around 500 - 1000 skilled employees for good. Most of which would be the among the more experienced, older part of the workforce.

Just last weekend, Boeing saw the first employee die from COVID-19. https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ett-plant/
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:50 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
This has to be a joke, thousands you say.


No joke, there are many workers at Boeing over the age of 60. For some reason, they like to continue to work even when they can get a comfortable life with their retirement benefits.

Often time these are the most experienced worker.

Ofcourse with this virus and shut down, they also may be thinking hard about retiring.

bt
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Beedo46
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:24 pm

I get all of the discussion about death and the economy, but why produce new planes when airlines are parking them wherever they will fit right now? Safety before more huge paperweights.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:09 am

Instead of 14 days, Boeing has suspended production indefinitely:

Boeing will continue indefinitely its shutdown of local factory operations rather than re-opening Wednesday as planned, it told Washington state employees Sunday via email.

“Boeing is extending the temporary suspension of operations at all Puget Sound area and Moses Lake sites until further notice,” the company told employees.

Boeing has about roughly 70,000 employees in the state. The decision affects about 30,000 of them, mostly production workers.


Boeing indefinitely extends factories’ coronavirus shutdown
Good moaning!
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:17 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Instead of 14 days, Boeing has suspended production indefinitely:

Boeing will continue indefinitely its shutdown of local factory operations rather than re-opening Wednesday as planned, it told Washington state employees Sunday via email.

“Boeing is extending the temporary suspension of operations at all Puget Sound area and Moses Lake sites until further notice,” the company told employees.

Boeing has about roughly 70,000 employees in the state. The decision affects about 30,000 of them, mostly production workers.


Boeing indefinitely extends factories’ coronavirus shutdown



Not all operations are suspended: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-to-restart-limited-local-work-on-jets-as-early-as-monday/
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:23 am

Seems that some military work has restarted. Commercial aircraft production is still on hold.
Good moaning!
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:12 pm

Boeing is working on restarting commercial aircraft production by the end of next week: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/busi ... virus.html
 
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Acey559
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:27 pm

Stitch wrote:
Boeing is working on restarting commercial aircraft production by the end of next week: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/busi ... virus.html


Great news. Hopefully the start of things having some semblance of returning to “normalcy”.
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sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:42 pm

Per Seattle Times, delay in restarting production was due to supply chain, having masks and other PPE, and other safety measures, such as temperature checks, in place.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:01 pm

Looks like Boeing can completely get back to work.

Pretty sure there will be plenty of business cutting cargo doors into the MAX fuselages.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:06 pm

MAX workers are probably excluded, that a/c is not on the list mentioned in the article, all they say is laying groundwork.
Waiting for post saying this is another move to pressure the FAA in 3.....2....1.....
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:17 pm

par13del wrote:
MAX workers are probably excluded


Some workers will be returning to work at Renton to prepare for a resumption of MAX production.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:48 pm

As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.

Taking someone's temperature just checks if they're finally showing symptoms after being a carrier for several days.

All this to build planes that airlines don't want or need, so Boeing execs can have a reason to give themselves bonuses.

This could all end in tears.

I think this is another example of a large corporation taking risks and thinking they can deal with the possible blowback later.

That didn't end well with the MAX, and it may not end well here.

Consider a future possible headline: "Epicenter of 2nd Wave of Pandemic: Boeing's Airplane Factory".
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oldJoe
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.

Taking someone's temperature just checks if they're finally showing symptoms after being a carrier for several days.

All this to build planes that airlines don't want or need, so Boeing execs can have a reason to give themselves bonuses.

This could all end in tears.

I think this is another example of a large corporation taking risks and thinking they can deal with the possible blowback later.

That didn't end well with the MAX, and it may not end well here.

Consider a future possible headline: "Epicenter of 2nd Wave of Pandemic: Boeing's Airplane Factory".


Big respect from me for this post ! You`re absolutly very down to earth ! Why are there only so few people around this world who see the reality ? All this board members sitting on millions and bring the workforce in a very high health risc , only to get some :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: more ? Sad, very sad !
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:46 pm

The reality is either bringing back the workers slowly or laying them off. Boeing have already paid the workers 2 weeks for staying at home. If any one not wishing to come back, they are told to take sick leave, vacation or un-paid leave. Many worker will risk coming back because they have mortgages to pay.

Boeing is working closely with Washington State and the various local industry for a coordinated approach. They are not doing this independenly.

Just like those 6ft separation lines at the supermarket, Boeing will have these stay out zone at the job site. This will be the new normal for a while.

Heck, your local grocery store clerks face much greater risk than a typical Boeing mechanic for much less pay. I'm sure there will be many mechanics who are stir crazy right now an look forward to coming back.

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:49 pm

Well they can't bring all the workers because the new production rates will be lower than before.
Good moaning!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:54 pm

As I understand the first worker to come back have been those supporting the Military programs. Others have made face shield for hospital workers and the blanket shop will be building masks.

The priority needs will be workers to prep to the MAX for delivery as the MAX recertification progresses.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:57 pm

All office workers are still remote and will be so for a while. It's the office workers who are packed. Unless you are working inside the aircraft, getting the social distancing on the factory floor is more of a psychological challenge than a physical challenge.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.

Taking someone's temperature just checks if they're finally showing symptoms after being a carrier for several days.

All this to build planes that airlines don't want or need, so Boeing execs can have a reason to give themselves bonuses.

This could all end in tears.

I think this is another example of a large corporation taking risks and thinking they can deal with the possible blowback later.

That didn't end well with the MAX, and it may not end well here.

Consider a future possible headline: "Epicenter of 2nd Wave of Pandemic: Boeing's Airplane Factory".


I respectfully disagree, on several counts:

1. To survive a severe recession, a company needs cash. Part of that means shipping for what orders are willing to accept delivery. Despite most airlines not receiving orders, I bet there are some orders that can be delivered. Revenue is urgently needed to stabilize the situation. The only way to escape recession is to work your way out of it.

2. The risk of virus spread is real, but it can be dealt with. And it has to be. Elements of coronavirus will probably be lingering for months, yet the economy cannot stay shut until it is eradicated. There are mitigation techniques that can make production happen.

3. Point #2 is underlined by the risk of being shut down by a health inspector. Therefore, companies are very interested in NOT being an outbreak center for the risk of being shut down again. And so companies are proceeding carefully. There are ways to accomplish this.

It's not about corporate greed or bonuses. It's about whether you still want Boeing Commerical Airplanes around this time next year. We at a.net are all too familiar with the names of manufacturers that are no more. I have friends at Boeing who are considering their future there, and other friends in the avionics industry who are laid off. Economic damage is real.

The annual meeting is April 27. I'm sure every board member is going to be in the hot seat. I voted against most of the board members for my shares. I doubt any shareholder is willing to put up with any golden parachutes at this time, so I think your charge of corporate greed doesn't apply at this time. A tar and feathering probably best describes shareholder sentiment right now.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:00 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The reality is either bringing back the workers slowly or laying them off. Boeing have already paid the workers 2 weeks for staying at home. If any one not wishing to come back, they are told to take sick leave, vacation or un-paid leave. Many worker will risk coming back because they have mortgages to pay.

Boeing is working closely with Washington State and the various local industry for a coordinated approach. They are not doing this independenly.

Just like those 6ft separation lines at the supermarket, Boeing will have these stay out zone at the job site. This will be the new normal for a while.

Heck, your local grocery store clerks face much greater risk than a typical Boeing mechanic for much less pay. I'm sure there will be many mechanics who are stir crazy right now an look forward to coming back.

bt

I see things very differently.

1) Very little of what Boeing does can be classified as an "essential service", at least in the scope of the current crisis

2) Putting your mortgage ahead of your health and/or your life is a bad decision

3) Your choice to go to work and potentially catch and transmit the virus is putting lots of others at risk, in particular our over taxed medical workers

Going through this in a bit more depth:

1) UA can wait a few more months for its next 77W. Chances are it will just get parked. The Navy can wait a few more months for their next P8 (chances are it's going to India or Australia anyway and they won't take it). Heck, the Navy can't even keep its carriers at sea due to lack of healthy sailors. Sure there may be some consumables that still need to be produced, and some services need to be rendered, but that's about it.

2) You're saying these folks are well paid by regional standards, have been paid to do nothing for two weeks, and can't make their next mortgage payment? Didn't these people's parents explain to them what a rainy day fund is, and why they need one? Many financial advisers give introductory appointments away for free. Some employers provide access to financial advisers, maybe Boeing does? These people need to figure out what they can do better. Move to a cheaper house. Take in a roommate or two. Do day care for other people's kids. Take less vacations. Drive older cars. Do what it takes to get a few months savings in the bank. Don't go to work in a place where you can get sick and end up on disability or die just because you can't ride out a storm.

3) Should be self explanatory. It's a terrible thing to decide your own need for money is worth putting many others at risk. On average each person who catches the virus spreads it to three others. The medical experts are saying we need to isolate. Deciding you know better is taking your own life, and that of others, in your own hands. I'm really surprised the local authorities are allowing this to happen. I bet you tremendous pressure is being applied behind the scenes.

Overall, I thought Americans thought of themselves as rough independent people. In reality we see in this case people suggesting that they can't go two weeks without Mother Boeing's teat in their mouth. It's pretty sad. Either that, or they really can, but they just have their priorities so fouled up they're willing to put money above their own health and that of others.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:09 pm

smithbs wrote:
I respectfully disagree, on several counts:

1. To survive a severe recession, a company needs cash. Part of that means shipping for what orders are willing to accept delivery. Despite most airlines not receiving orders, I bet there are some orders that can be delivered. Revenue is urgently needed to stabilize the situation. The only way to escape recession is to work your way out of it.

2. The risk of virus spread is real, but it can be dealt with. And it has to be. Elements of coronavirus will probably be lingering for months, yet the economy cannot stay shut until it is eradicated. There are mitigation techniques that can make production happen.

3. Point #2 is underlined by the risk of being shut down by a health inspector. Therefore, companies are very interested in NOT being an outbreak center for the risk of being shut down again. And so companies are proceeding carefully. There are ways to accomplish this.

It's not about corporate greed or bonuses. It's about whether you still want Boeing Commerical Airplanes around this time next year. We at a.net are all too familiar with the names of manufacturers that are no more. I have friends at Boeing who are considering their future there, and other friends in the avionics industry who are laid off. Economic damage is real.

The annual meeting is April 27. I'm sure every board member is going to be in the hot seat. I voted against most of the board members for my shares. I doubt any shareholder is willing to put up with any golden parachutes at this time, so I think your charge of corporate greed doesn't apply at this time. A tar and feathering probably best describes shareholder sentiment right now.

I see things very differently. Boeing going back to production next week is not essential. People's health is. People can survive financial hardship. Death is permanent. Boeing can and will survive financial hardship. If things get really bad eventually stock holders might get wiped out, but Boeing will survive. It's happened to other companies before. All three of the legacy US airlines went through bankruptcy in the 00s and all rebounded. It took a few years but it happened. I think we can all agree that a dead person is never going to be not dead. Boeing is really foolish to be putting itself into this position.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
smithbs wrote:
[…]

I see things very differently. Boeing going back to production next week is not essential. People's health is. People can survive financial hardship. Death is permanent. Boeing can and will survive financial hardship. If things get really bad eventually stock holders might get wiped out, but Boeing will survive. It's happened to other companies before. All three of the legacy US airlines went through bankruptcy in the 00s and all rebounded. It took a few years but it happened. I think we can all agree that a dead person is never going to be not dead. Boeing is really foolish to be putting itself into this position.


Revelation, respect. For once, I so much agree with all of what you've written.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:01 am

Boeing production is considered essential by Washington State and the federal government. The state and CDC are heavily involved in this decision. Workers have a choice about returning, or staying home unpaid. It’s a choice we will all face at some point since it is impossible to stay sheltered in place until COVID is gone.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:47 am

sxf24 wrote:
Boeing production is considered essential by Washington State and the federal government.

What is the rationale?

I read the Seattle Times story on this ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... eparations ) and could find no rationale/justification.

However it did say that one PAE worker has already died of COVID-19, so I guess it's just the cost of doing business, no worries about this kind of thing blowing back at them in the future.

sxf24 wrote:
The state and CDC are heavily involved in this decision. Workers have a choice about returning, or staying home unpaid. It’s a choice we will all face at some point since it is impossible to stay sheltered in place until COVID is gone.

Can you provide background on the officials making such decisions and what their decision process is?

ST did not cover this at all.

ST did say that the temperature tests are "voluntary".

Above we read that some workers prime concern is making the next mortgage payment.

I think it's pretty likely those people won't be volunteering for a temperature test.

What could possibly go wrong?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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sxf24
Posts: 1001
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:50 am

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Boeing production is considered essential by Washington State and the federal government.

What is the rationale?

I read the Seattle Times story on this ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... eparations ) and could find no rationale/justification.

However it did say that one PAE worker has already died of COVID-19, so I guess it's just the cost of doing business, no worries about this kind of thing blowing back at them in the future.

sxf24 wrote:
The state and CDC are heavily involved in this decision. Workers have a choice about returning, or staying home unpaid. It’s a choice we will all face at some point since it is impossible to stay sheltered in place until COVID is gone.

Can you provide background on the officials making such decisions and what their decision process is?

ST did not cover this at all.

ST did say that the temperature tests are "voluntary".

Above we read that some workers prime concern is making the next mortgage payment.

I think it's pretty likely those people won't be volunteering for a temperature test.

What could possibly go wrong?


Washington State identified transportation equipment manufacturing as an essential industry. Boeing is therefore entitled to continue normal operations.

I’m not going to debate the rationale of the state’s decision. However as a Washington State resident I recognize Boeing’s tax payments from revenue generation is a critics source of revenue.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2221
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:21 am

bikerthai wrote:
The reality is either bringing back the workers slowly or laying them off. Boeing have already paid the workers 2 weeks for staying at home. If any one not wishing to come back, they are told to take sick leave, vacation or un-paid leave. Many worker will risk coming back because they have mortgages to pay.

Boeing is working closely with Washington State and the various local industry for a coordinated approach. They are not doing this independenly.

Just like those 6ft separation lines at the supermarket, Boeing will have these stay out zone at the job site. This will be the new normal for a while.

Heck, your local grocery store clerks face much greater risk than a typical Boeing mechanic for much less pay. I'm sure there will be many mechanics who are stir crazy right now an look forward to coming back.

bt


It can be done well, my son works at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, which has 14,000 employees. All high risk employees were automatic work from home, a good bit of others also are doing telework. In his engineering work group 5 of 14 are in the office, 9 teleworking. Crews are working the subs and ships, with prudent social distancing and masks in use it is going well. Our county has had only 1 new CV case in the last week, Washington State closed restaurants, bars, and gatherings back in mid March. We saw rising cases thru the end of March, seems to be passing a bit. We all must get back to work, but we need strict social distancing and smart risk management.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1756
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:24 am

Revelation wrote:
smithbs wrote:
I respectfully disagree, on several counts:

1. To survive a severe recession, a company needs cash. Part of that means shipping for what orders are willing to accept delivery. Despite most airlines not receiving orders, I bet there are some orders that can be delivered. Revenue is urgently needed to stabilize the situation. The only way to escape recession is to work your way out of it.

2. The risk of virus spread is real, but it can be dealt with. And it has to be. Elements of coronavirus will probably be lingering for months, yet the economy cannot stay shut until it is eradicated. There are mitigation techniques that can make production happen.

3. Point #2 is underlined by the risk of being shut down by a health inspector. Therefore, companies are very interested in NOT being an outbreak center for the risk of being shut down again. And so companies are proceeding carefully. There are ways to accomplish this.

It's not about corporate greed or bonuses. It's about whether you still want Boeing Commerical Airplanes around this time next year. We at a.net are all too familiar with the names of manufacturers that are no more. I have friends at Boeing who are considering their future there, and other friends in the avionics industry who are laid off. Economic damage is real.

The annual meeting is April 27. I'm sure every board member is going to be in the hot seat. I voted against most of the board members for my shares. I doubt any shareholder is willing to put up with any golden parachutes at this time, so I think your charge of corporate greed doesn't apply at this time. A tar and feathering probably best describes shareholder sentiment right now.

I see things very differently. Boeing going back to production next week is not essential. People's health is. People can survive financial hardship. Death is permanent. Boeing can and will survive financial hardship. If things get really bad eventually stock holders might get wiped out, but Boeing will survive. It's happened to other companies before. All three of the legacy US airlines went through bankruptcy in the 00s and all rebounded. It took a few years but it happened. I think we can all agree that a dead person is never going to be not dead. Boeing is really foolish to be putting itself into this position.


Individual people might survive but large groups, companies, societies cannot survive prolonged financial hardship. All 3 US legacies were actually 6+ companies, misleading to say they all survived. There’s a threshold where the pain and suffering from shutting down out of fear from what might happen exceeds the pain and suffering of what is actually happening. Reality is more wealth and jobs have been destroyed faster than anytime in history.

Essential businesses that have stayed open do not have employees dying at any rate or count that is different than society as a whole.

Boeing workers can choose not to go back to work. Those who want to go work can choose to do so. To say Boeing or any company can just wait it out is a unrealistic.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4256
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:06 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
The reality is either bringing back the workers slowly or laying them off. Boeing have already paid the workers 2 weeks for staying at home. If any one not wishing to come back, they are told to take sick leave, vacation or un-paid leave. Many worker will risk coming back because they have mortgages to pay.

Boeing is working closely with Washington State and the various local industry for a coordinated approach. They are not doing this independenly.

Just like those 6ft separation lines at the supermarket, Boeing will have these stay out zone at the job site. This will be the new normal for a while.

Heck, your local grocery store clerks face much greater risk than a typical Boeing mechanic for much less pay. I'm sure there will be many mechanics who are stir crazy right now an look forward to coming back.

bt


It can be done well, my son works at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, which has 14,000 employees. All high risk employees were automatic work from home, a good bit of others also are doing telework. In his engineering work group 5 of 14 are in the office, 9 teleworking. Crews are working the subs and ships, with prudent social distancing and masks in use it is going well. Our county has had only 1 new CV case in the last week, Washington State closed restaurants, bars, and gatherings back in mid March. We saw rising cases thru the end of March, seems to be passing a bit. We all must get back to work, but we need strict social distancing and smart risk management.


I have emailed reporters and others about this. We have a huge natural experiment on how to work in a time of covid-19. There is data at the shipyards, giga bytes of it, and it seems to be ignored by everyone. So Trump wants America back to work - why isn't he using data like the shipyards to show America how it can be done, rather than silly tweets based less than a single datum. I also disagree with any assertion that even a single death is proof we cannot have people go back to work. Depressions cause deaths, lots of them. Work causes death - as a union leader my dad spent much of his time in the 40s and 50s enforcing safety in the construction industry. One death is too many, but put some value on that life by learning how to prevent the next one.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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par13del
Posts: 10337
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.
".

If a vaccine is found tomorrow, the law suits at least in the USA will start immediately after the lawyers know it is safe to ply their craft, a judge in NYC has died of the virus because he refused to accept the effect it could have on his court room, so he allowed no social distancing.
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus ... story.html

The issue for the lawyers with this virus is that like it or not, it will force them to go after deep pockets. Based on what we know now about the virus, you can be infected a week or two before symptoms appear, how can they prove that they were infected at Boeing's plant, will Boeing fire back by saying an individual employee who the state cleared bought the virus onto Boeing property?
If Boeing defies state orders and reopens production, that provides all the grounds needed, if the state lifts the order, the negligence will have to be shown where Boeing did not implement recommended guidelines. Sadly, all this means is that it reverts to what we always had before when law suits are bought against big companies, some things just do not change. Note that in Boeing's case, they still have to address numerous suits abut the MAX deaths, I am also sure that there will be others related to loss of income among the numerous supplier work force of the production shut down prior to the virus nation shut down.

Workers will get infected as will demonstrators pushing for lock down ease across the USA, see the Florida beaches now open, we may be looking at triage being practised by the masses versus the professionals. The world we live in today is still built on socializing, tv and internet be dammed.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:51 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.
".

If a vaccine is found tomorrow, the law suits at least in the USA will start immediately after the lawyers know it is safe to ply their craft, a judge in NYC has died of the virus because he refused to accept the effect it could have on his court room, so he allowed no social distancing.
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus ... story.html

The issue for the lawyers with this virus is that like it or not, it will force them to go after deep pockets. Based on what we know now about the virus, you can be infected a week or two before symptoms appear, how can they prove that they were infected at Boeing's plant, will Boeing fire back by saying an individual employee who the state cleared bought the virus onto Boeing property?
If Boeing defies state orders and reopens production, that provides all the grounds needed, if the state lifts the order, the negligence will have to be shown where Boeing did not implement recommended guidelines. Sadly, all this means is that it reverts to what we always had before when law suits are bought against big companies, some things just do not change. Note that in Boeing's case, they still have to address numerous suits abut the MAX deaths, I am also sure that there will be others related to loss of income among the numerous supplier work force of the production shut down prior to the virus nation shut down.

Workers will get infected as will demonstrators pushing for lock down ease across the USA, see the Florida beaches now open, we may be looking at triage being practised by the masses versus the professionals. The world we live in today is still built on socializing, tv and internet be dammed.


Boeing can’t reopen production without the consent of the state and federal government. It has both and appears to be taking all recommended precautions. It is likely more employees will get COVID (just like people who are working from home will get COVID). What will be difficult would be proving how those individuals got COVID and who is responsible.

I don’t see nurses and doctors suing hospitals for getting COVID while taking care of COVID patients.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8090
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.


You can wait until things are 'perfectly safe' - whatever that means. Influenza vaccine isn't 100% effective. There's no HIV vaccine.

The fact is that tens of millions of Americans continued work in face-to-face jobs with less protection that an N95 mask. A firm can mitigate risks but it can't assure 100% protection.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:53 pm

Revelation,

I understand your concern and arguement about health and safety. We both are in a position to put health over salary. So it is easier to argue the finer points of money management. But to argue the average Boeing employee can afford to skip a couple of paychecks and miss some mortgage payment is to miss the point that the newer hires would not have the financial reserve to weather that storm.

Heck the newer hires would also be younger and may be willing to take that risk. We all take risk driving to work.

Your argument is logically sound, but many are not swayed by logical argument. Take those "protestors" in Michigan for example.

Like others here have argued, Boeing will be part of the overall Washington's get back to work initiative. Right now we trust our Washington government more than the other Washinhton. And these are lessons we have to learn in order to deal more effectively with the next pandemic. Some have argued because Asia had to go through the SARS pandemic, they were better prepared this time. This is our SARS moment.

Your argument on essential service does bring up some logic gymnastics. I guess a tomato plant can be deem essential as it will provide food. Why else would our local nursery be open. I just bought 3 tomato plants the other day, and having gone through that experience, I would say I have a greater chance of catching the virus at that nursery or shopping at Costco, even with all the social distancing guideline in place, than a Boeing mechanic working on a 737. The reason being that at the nursery, or grocery store I interacted with or in proximity to more people in one hour than a Boeing mechanic working and seeing the same people at work for a whole month.

Be safe. Stay safe.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24388
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:01 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Washington State identified transportation equipment manufacturing as an essential industry. Boeing is therefore entitled to continue normal operations.

I’m not going to debate the rationale of the state’s decision. However as a Washington State resident I recognize Boeing’s tax payments from revenue generation is a critics source of revenue.

Not directing this at you, but that logic is absurd.

A truck driver delivering masks or train operator taking medical workers to their jobs is providing an essential service, a person putting together an airplane that the airline probably does not want is not providing an essential service.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I have emailed reporters and others about this. We have a huge natural experiment on how to work in a time of covid-19. There is data at the shipyards, giga bytes of it, and it seems to be ignored by everyone. So Trump wants America back to work - why isn't he using data like the shipyards to show America how it can be done, rather than silly tweets based less than a single datum. I also disagree with any assertion that even a single death is proof we cannot have people go back to work. Depressions cause deaths, lots of them. Work causes death - as a union leader my dad spent much of his time in the 40s and 50s enforcing safety in the construction industry. One death is too many, but put some value on that life by learning how to prevent the next one.

I think we can all say we have little evidence that the current administration is willing to use science to guide its actions.

Depression deaths happen because one person decides to act on their impulse for whatever reason, COVID-19 deaths happen because someone breaths on another or someone contacts a surface that has a virus on it and then touches their face. It's a pretty big difference! One infected person typically infects three others who typically infect 9 then 27 and so on, so we can see how the one COVID carrier is far more significant than one depressed person who decides to act on an impulse.

sxf24 wrote:
I don’t see nurses and doctors suing hospitals for getting COVID while taking care of COVID patients.

Nurses and doctors are providing an essential service, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.

MIflyer12 wrote:
The fact is that tens of millions of Americans continued work in face-to-face jobs with less protection that an N95 mask.

Most of these are people working to provide food or medical services and are performing essential services, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.
Last edited by Revelation on Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 3417
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:03 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Boeing can’t reopen production without the consent of the state and federal government. It has both and appears to be taking all recommended precautions. It is likely more employees will get COVID (just like people who are working from home will get COVID). What will be difficult would be proving how those individuals got COVID and who is responsible.


The Federal government have abdicated all responsibility. You are right, until we have sufficient testing, tracing the path of infection will not be fine enough to pinpoint the probable source.

Again I trust Washington State's chances of doing the right thing more than say . . . Florida. Our beaches ar not nice enough to be reopened early. :cheeky:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Washington State identified transportation equipment manufacturing as an essential industry. Boeing is therefore entitled to continue normal operations.

I’m not going to debate the rationale of the state’s decision. However as a Washington State resident I recognize Boeing’s tax payments from revenue generation is a critics source of revenue.

Not directing this at you, but that logic is absurd.

A truck driver delivering masks or train operator taking medical workers to their jobs is providing an essential service, a person putting together an airplane that the airline probably does not want is not providing an essential service.

sxf24 wrote:
I don’t see nurses and doctors suing hospitals for getting COVID while taking care of COVID patients.

Nurses and doctors are providing an essential service, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.


The State of Washington defined building airplanes as an essential service. If you disagree, take it up with the Governor.

Boeing lacks the ability and has no obligation to cease production indefinitely. The reality is it would bankrupt the company and drain the State of Washington of the ability to respond to this crisis.

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