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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
Most of these are people working to provide food or medical services and are performing essential services, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.


Like me, you are way too logical.

However, by the very broad strokes of the regulations, airliners and building airlines are part of the essential equation. When they ship those ventilators from California to New York, they did it in the belly of an airliner, most likely.

Your argument on the time scale is valid from a humanistic and efficiency stand point. But that would be a point too fine for the regulation. Right now we are slave to the consensus of our government. And they for better or worse, should be guided by science but are bounded by regulations.

bt
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:33 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Revelation,

I understand your concern and arguement about health and safety. We both are in a position to put health over salary. So it is easier to argue the finer points of money management. But to argue the average Boeing employee can afford to skip a couple of paychecks and miss some mortgage payment is to miss the point that the newer hires would not have the financial reserve to weather that storm.

Heck the newer hires would also be younger and may be willing to take that risk. We all take risk driving to work.

Your argument is logically sound, but many are not swayed by logical argument. Take those "protestors" in Michigan for example.

Like others here have argued, Boeing will be part of the overall Washington's get back to work initiative. Right now we trust our Washington government more than the other Washinhton. And these are lessons we have to learn in order to deal more effectively with the next pandemic. Some have argued because Asia had to go through the SARS pandemic, they were better prepared this time. This is our SARS moment.

Your argument on essential service does bring up some logic gymnastics. I guess a tomato plant can be deem essential as it will provide food. Why else would our local nursery be open. I just bought 3 tomato plants the other day, and having gone through that experience, I would say I have a greater chance of catching the virus at that nursery or shopping at Costco, even with all the social distancing guideline in place, than a Boeing mechanic working on a 737. The reason being that at the nursery, or grocery store I interacted with or in proximity to more people in one hour than a Boeing mechanic working and seeing the same people at work for a whole month.

Be safe. Stay safe.

bt

Thank you, bt and other posters, for well thought out and considerate posts. It's OK if we aren't in agreement, or are only partially in agreement.

I too would like to avoid the minutia, so I am trying to focus on big themes, like what is essential, should one put money before health, what can we learn from all of this, and what is the nature of leadership.

I hate to say but I see in your post some bootstrapping. By focusing on the poorest Boeing worker whose concerns are the greatest you are ignoring the well paid Boeing worker who could put health before money but is letting greed drive their choice. Others say it's each worker's choice but that ignores things like peer pressure. A worker may feel they need go to work to support team members, or they may feel if they do not go to work they will be ostracized in the future. It's really not a free choice. Leaders should lead, and if they are of sound mind I think they would decide that the heath risks are too high and the need for new airliners is not high and we should not restart production. They should not let the whims of the youngest and most vulnerable and easily influenced members be a guide for what to do. In short, we need some adults in the room.

Certain political factions feel government should stay out of our lives and capitalist and faith based initiatives are the way to deal with our problems, so why don't they step in now? Why doesn't every Boeing employee who got a bonus (i.e. payment beyond expected salary) last year donate that to a church led distribution to those poorest workers? Wouldn't that be the way to get government out of the loop and show Christian values?

I think a true leader would show the leadership of saying commercial airliners really are not an essential service and everyone should put health and safety before financial concerns and we'll stay shut till we can be sure the medical system can handle any blowback from our thousands of workers all being in a relatively small area and potentially transmitting the disease to themselves and their loved ones. I think Boeing has lost a lot of credibility on the safety front via the MAX debacle, and this is more evidence of them putting money first. It's a terrible look for them.

And no, people should not be out buying plants for their gardens, what the bleep are they thinking?
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:43 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Most of these are people working to provide food or medical services and are performing essential services, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.


Like me, you are way too logical.

However, by the very broad strokes of the regulations, airliners and building airlines are part of the essential equation. When they ship those ventilators from California to New York, they did it in the belly of an airliner, most likely.

Your argument on the time scale is valid from a humanistic and efficiency stand point. But that would be a point too fine for the regulation. Right now we are slave to the consensus of our government. And they for better or worse, should be guided by science but are bounded by regulations.

bt

Well, there is the intent of the law and there is the letter of the law.

It should be clear what the intent of the law is, yet then gamesmanship kicks in and people see how they can bend things to look like they are complying with the intent of the law but really are doing whatever is in their own best interest.

Does this sound familiar?

Like how some people can convince themselves that MCAS on 737 is the same as MCAS on KC46, or the MCAS function is not critical so redundancy is not needed or how MCAS activation is the same as stabilizer runaway and the pilot will recognize it as such in three seconds?

Sorry to be blunt, but Boeing does need to do better.

The odd thing is that Boeing still seems to think people can't see right through them.

They don't seem to be learning anything from the MCAS debacle.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:56 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Washington State identified transportation equipment manufacturing as an essential industry. Boeing is therefore entitled to continue normal operations.

I’m not going to debate the rationale of the state’s decision. However as a Washington State resident I recognize Boeing’s tax payments from revenue generation is a critics source of revenue.

Not directing this at you, but that logic is absurd.

A truck driver delivering masks or train operator taking medical workers to their jobs is providing an essential service, a person putting together an airplane that the airline probably does not want is not providing an essential service.

sxf24 wrote:
I don’t see nurses and doctors suing hospitals for getting COVID while taking care of COVID patients.

Nurses and doctors are providing an essential service, someone building an airliner for future use clearly is not.


The State of Washington defined building airplanes as an essential service. If you disagree, take it up with the Governor.

Boeing lacks the ability and has no obligation to cease production indefinitely. The reality is it would bankrupt the company and drain the State of Washington of the ability to respond to this crisis.


It's an essential industry, not an essential service. There's a big difference. Personally, I don't see why the risk is necessary right now with demand for new aircraft in the toilet, so hopefully Boeing has a strong plan in place for keeping employees, vendors, contractors, etc. safe.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
I think a true leader would show the leadership of saying commercial airliners really are not an essential service and everyone should put health and safety before financial concerns and we'll stay shut till we can be sure the medical system can handle any blowback from our thousands of workers all being in a relatively small area and potentially transmitting the disease to themselves and their loved ones. I think Boeing has lost a lot of credibility on the safety front via the MAX debacle, and this is more evidence of them putting money first. It's a terrible look for them.

And no, people should not be out buying plants for their gardens, what the bleep are they thinking?

No disagreement with anything that you wrote, I would like to take it even further. The way the national economy is built, aircraft production is centered around Boeing's production in the North West, for every 100 employees directly employed by Boeing, there are a number of others maybe even more in associated or spin off industries. Boeing being closed means an entire region will be economically depressed. Regardless of whether aircraft production is deemed essential, the regions financial health is based around it, state revenue is down at the time when said revenue is needed to preserve the lives of millions in the state. Indeed the Federal stimulus money will not be nearly enough, that is the primary economic problem.

So since there are no true borders between states, one can expect the younger workers with less physical ties to the region say a home mortgage to start looking at picking up stakes and moving to somewhere else where the jobs are not tied to an economic activity that is shut down, the potential of virus spread or moving to a virus hot spot is apparent.
Disney Land in Orlando and much of Florida, with tourism down the economic activity available for work is farming, tending and picking the fruits and veggies that are essential, unfortunately, a lot of automation was created in that industry because folks left for higher paying less demanding jobs, how do they quickly reset such economies?

Young people regardless of peer pressure do not remain idle for long, mostly they are still trying to build their lives into something, if they cannot do that in their industry because it is shut down, they will adapt and move on, unfortunately, that is the society that we live in today, it cannot be changed overnight, the financial means does not exist.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
And no, people should not be out buying plants for their gardens, what the bleep are they thinking?


At least they were doing something practical instead to standing around in a crowd protesting. Gardening can be theraputical in this troubled times. :bigthumbsup:

Revelation wrote:
By focusing on the poorest Boeing worker whose concerns are the greatest you are ignoring the well paid Boeing worker who could put health before money but is letting greed drive their choice.


Buy you can't regulate greed. That will happens with or without the virus, even during war. We do not live in a homogenous society, the best we can do is try to be balance and provide people with options. Those without options will face greater risks.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:17 pm

par13del wrote:
[
No disagreement with anything that you wrote, I would like to take it even further. The way the national economy is built, aircraft production is centered around Boeing's production in the North West, for every 100 employees directly employed by Boeing, there are a number of others maybe even more in associated or spin off industries. Boeing being closed means an entire region will be economically depressed. Regardless of whether aircraft production is deemed essential, the regions financial health is based around it, state revenue is down at the time when said revenue is needed to preserve the lives of millions in the state. Indeed the Federal stimulus money will not be nearly enough, that is the primary economic problem.

This again gets back to the core question: what is more important, money or health?

Note that there is no guarantee that resuming production is going to be a positive influence on the region's economy. They are producing airplanes that customers largely don't want so they will generating lots of expenses and little revenue. Resuming production could lead to lots of infected workers in hospitals or graveyards and production shut for a second time with any opportunity to restart pushed even farther down the road.

bikerthai wrote:
We do not live in a homogenous society, the best we can do is try to be balance and provide people with options. Those without options will face greater risks.

I don't think we got ahead as a society by giving everyone options. I think we got ahead by electing wise leaders who could connect with experts and who figured out the best course forward and leading us in that direction. As I said, I think we need some adults in the room. If we let the kids decide, everyone eats jello for dinner and dies of malnutrition. Right now we got a bunch of leaders telling everyone it's OK to eat nothing but jello.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
This again gets back to the core question: what is more important, money or health?

Note that there is no guarantee that resuming production is going to be a positive influence on the region's economy.

Correct, but the other side of the equation is that those workers need and want something to do, the state cannot pay them indefinitely to stay at home for their health doing nothing, and since most of the jobs in the region require a lot of manual labour working remotely is not an option.

We now know that Boeing wasted billions to preserve its production capacity by continuing to produce planes that the regulators have not cleared to fly, if they had not done so, how many of the current workers would still have been in the state or even in the same industry, and yes I am talking about hind sight, because as we have seen with their suppliers, the knock on effect is / was huge.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
I don't think we got ahead as a society by giving everyone options. I think we got ahead by electing wise leaders who could connect with experts and who figured out the best course forward and leading us in that direction. As I said, I think we need some adults in the room. If we let the kids decide, everyone eats jello for dinner and dies of malnutrition. Right now we got a bunch of leaders telling everyone it's OK to eat nothing but jello.

Some of those kids in the room are medical professionals who give rise to the statement that common sense is not that common.
The Bahamas is a nation of islands all but two not connected by bridges, our government says we have plenty test kits, not enough for the entire population but enough. We have some islands with 1,000 or so who are locked down, no inter island connections, but rather than testing them we promise them another two weeks before that decision can be made. We actually have the natural physical isolation but no one seems to have thought of the exceptions versus using a sledge hammer to drive in a nail.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:03 pm

Revelation wrote:
par13del wrote:
[
No disagreement with anything that you wrote, I would like to take it even further. The way the national economy is built, aircraft production is centered around Boeing's production in the North West, for every 100 employees directly employed by Boeing, there are a number of others maybe even more in associated or spin off industries. Boeing being closed means an entire region will be economically depressed. Regardless of whether aircraft production is deemed essential, the regions financial health is based around it, state revenue is down at the time when said revenue is needed to preserve the lives of millions in the state. Indeed the Federal stimulus money will not be nearly enough, that is the primary economic problem.

This again gets back to the core question: what is more important, money or health?

Note that there is no guarantee that resuming production is going to be a positive influence on the region's economy. They are producing airplanes that customers largely don't want so they will generating lots of expenses and little revenue. Resuming production could lead to lots of infected workers in hospitals or graveyards and production shut for a second time with any opportunity to restart pushed even farther down the road.

bikerthai wrote:
We do not live in a homogenous society, the best we can do is try to be balance and provide people with options. Those without options will face greater risks.

I don't think we got ahead as a society by giving everyone options. I think we got ahead by electing wise leaders who could connect with experts and who figured out the best course forward and leading us in that direction. As I said, I think we need some adults in the room. If we let the kids decide, everyone eats jello for dinner and dies of malnutrition. Right now we got a bunch of leaders telling everyone it's OK to eat nothing but jello.

I dislike when people suggest that those who are more concerned over the economy value money over health. While technically correct, it makes it seem like the argument is coming from a place of greed. When in reality, most people more concerned over the economy then their health, just don't want to end up homeless. The economic effects of the national shutdown are, from my fairly uneducated inference, likely to result in more indirect deaths from higher suicide rates, and decreased public health due to poverty, than Covid 19 could dream of.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:45 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
I dislike when people suggest that those who are more concerned over the economy value money over health. While technically correct, it makes it seem like the argument is coming from a place of greed. When in reality, most people more concerned over the economy then their health, just don't want to end up homeless. The economic effects of the national shutdown are, from my fairly uneducated inference, likely to result in more indirect deaths from higher suicide rates, and decreased public health due to poverty, than Covid 19 could dream of.

They are separate issues.

If you are only one paycheck or even a few weeks of paychecks away from homelessness, chances are something else than COVID-19 is going to cause you to be homeless. If you are that close to homelessness yet like Boeing workers still have medical insurance, chances are the co-pays you need to pay if they get COVID-19 will wipe you out. I just had an appendectomy and I can tell you my co-pays are more than a pay check. Several days in an ICU on a ventilator would be far worse. And Boeing has already had one worker die of COVID-19, and that guy isn't worrying about homelessness right now.

Mental health is a different issue than a killer virus. They have different treatments. The approach should be to treat both, not to use false logic to say it's a trade off between the two.

I really do think it is about health vs. money. I think there are a lot of false narratives and fear mongering being put out to make it seem like it isn't.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
The reality is either bringing back the workers slowly or laying them off. Boeing have already paid the workers 2 weeks for staying at home. If any one not wishing to come back, they are told to take sick leave, vacation or un-paid leave. Many worker will risk coming back because they have mortgages to pay.

Boeing is working closely with Washington State and the various local industry for a coordinated approach. They are not doing this independenly.

Just like those 6ft separation lines at the supermarket, Boeing will have these stay out zone at the job site. This will be the new normal for a while.

Heck, your local grocery store clerks face much greater risk than a typical Boeing mechanic for much less pay. I'm sure there will be many mechanics who are stir crazy right now an look forward to coming back.

bt


It can be done well, my son works at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, which has 14,000 employees. All high risk employees were automatic work from home, a good bit of others also are doing telework. In his engineering work group 5 of 14 are in the office, 9 teleworking. Crews are working the subs and ships, with prudent social distancing and masks in use it is going well. Our county has had only 1 new CV case in the last week, Washington State closed restaurants, bars, and gatherings back in mid March. We saw rising cases thru the end of March, seems to be passing a bit. We all must get back to work, but we need strict social distancing and smart risk management.


I have emailed reporters and others about this. We have a huge natural experiment on how to work in a time of covid-19. There is data at the shipyards, giga bytes of it, and it seems to be ignored by everyone. So Trump wants America back to work - why isn't he using data like the shipyards to show America how it can be done, rather than silly tweets based less than a single datum. I also disagree with any assertion that even a single death is proof we cannot have people go back to work. Depressions cause deaths, lots of them. Work causes death - as a union leader my dad spent much of his time in the 40s and 50s enforcing safety in the construction industry. One death is too many, but put some value on that life by learning how to prevent the next one.


By the 70's Asbestos Abatement got its act together and started negative pressure enclosures, proper suits & respirators, and the proper way to exit the airlock with the outer suit removed, shower, and change so no fibers get out. It took 5 to 6 years to get it right, now Asbestos workers have only a moderately higher health risk than other workers. Simarily with fall protection, it took decades to get the full level of enforcement but a 10 fold (or more) drop in fatalities per hour worked. As you noted we can get a decent balance of safety and productivity.

I am seeing in Kitsap County WA (just west of Seattle) big changes in the stores, handing out sani wipes, marked social distancing, one way aisles, and Lexan panels up between the cashier and the customer. Great improvement in safety, only minimal loss in productivity. We can get back to work.

At the same time we need to keep communities isolated, for if cases spike in a town it can be controlled as a hot spot. If not isolated, the hot spot will be a city or state, far more of a disaster to get corrected. This does not bode well for the travel industry, nor sports, conventions, and the Vegas Casinos.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I dislike when people suggest that those who are more concerned over the economy value money over health. While technically correct, it makes it seem like the argument is coming from a place of greed. When in reality, most people more concerned over the economy then their health, just don't want to end up homeless. The economic effects of the national shutdown are, from my fairly uneducated inference, likely to result in more indirect deaths from higher suicide rates, and decreased public health due to poverty, than Covid 19 could dream of.

They are separate issues.

If you are only one paycheck or even a few weeks of paychecks away from homelessness, chances are something else than COVID-19 is going to cause you to be homeless. If you are that close to homelessness yet like Boeing workers still have medical insurance, chances are the co-pays you need to pay if they get COVID-19 will wipe you out. I just had an appendectomy and I can tell you my co-pays are more than a pay check. Several days in an ICU on a ventilator would be far worse. And Boeing has already had one worker die of COVID-19, and that guy isn't worrying about homelessness right now.

Mental health is a different issue than a killer virus. They have different treatments. The approach should be to treat both, not to use false logic to say it's a trade off between the two.

I really do think it is about health vs. money. I think there are a lot of false narratives and fear mongering being put out to make it seem like it isn't.


How do you pay your bills?
Are you stressed and less physically healthy when you can’t pay your bills?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:38 am

sxf24 wrote:
How do you pay your bills?

A mixture of hard work, good luck, and preparation. I've worked from age 14 onward. When I got my first professional job I lived at home till I could pay off my college debts and could afford to move to my own place AND have a "rainy day fund" that covered four months of expenses should the sh*t hit the fan. We all know the sh*t can hit the fan at any point, don't we? To make it work I drove old cars, avoided outlandish vacations, etc. My next move was to be someone's roommate in a dive apartment so I could take a better job and save more money. I didn't buy my first home till I could afford a down payment, the increased payments each month and the necessary increase to the rainy day fund. I continued to save as my career proceeded since we in the US don't get pensions and the jackals that run this country keep trying to take away social security and medicare. So the answer to your question is I made sure I didn't have such worries by making sure to not spend more than I bring in, which has been a successful strategy for me since age 14.

sxf24 wrote:
Are you stressed and less physically healthy when you can’t pay your bills?

I know I would be, that's why I've worked hard, engaged financial advisers as needed, and built up a cushion so one event doesn't wipe me out. I've also helped three different friends / family members through bankruptcy at various times. In addition to paying legal fees, I've brought them to financial advisers and have paid the fees for that too. The advise has been the same: ditch the expensive car payment, drive a beater instead, become a roommate or take one in yourself, pick up extra work till you can build up a cushion. Another common theme: get your ex-spouse to negotiate a more fair child support arrangement or go to court after you are bankrupt to get the judge to reevaluate the circumstances. All this is evidence that financial distress is a problem but it's something you can survive, whereas in the US we now have 32,494 people who didn't survive COVID-19.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:15 am

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
How do you pay your bills?

A mixture of hard work, good luck, and preparation. I've worked from age 14 onward. When I got my first professional job I lived at home till I could pay off my college debts and could afford to move to my own place AND have a "rainy day fund" that covered four months of expenses should the sh*t hit the fan. We all know the sh*t can hit the fan at any point, don't we? To make it work I drove old cars, avoided outlandish vacations, etc. My next move was to be someone's roommate in a dive apartment so I could take a better job and save more money. I didn't buy my first home till I could afford a down payment, the increased payments each month and the necessary increase to the rainy day fund. I continued to save as my career proceeded since we in the US don't get pensions and the jackals that run this country keep trying to take away social security and medicare. So the answer to your question is I made sure I didn't have such worries by making sure to not spend more than I bring in, which has been a successful strategy for me since age 14.

sxf24 wrote:
Are you stressed and less physically healthy when you can’t pay your bills?

I know I would be, that's why I've worked hard, engaged financial advisers as needed, and built up a cushion so one event doesn't wipe me out. I've also helped three different friends / family members through bankruptcy at various times. In addition to paying legal fees, I've brought them to financial advisers and have paid the fees for that too. The advise has been the same: ditch the expensive car payment, drive a beater instead, become a roommate or take one in yourself, pick up extra work till you can build up a cushion. Another common theme: get your ex-spouse to negotiate a more fair child support arrangement or go to court after you are bankrupt to get the judge to reevaluate the circumstances. All this is evidence that financial distress is a problem but it's something you can survive, whereas in the US we now have 32,494 people who didn't survive COVID-19.


You were smart, and are, to some extent, lucky. Most people are neither. Therefore, they can’t stay home and not work indefinitely. Nor can their employers continue to pay them for adding no value. That’s why Boeing, and many other parts of the economy, need to resume in the interim period while we wait for a vaccine.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:39 am

sxf24 wrote:
You were smart, and are, to some extent, lucky. Most people are neither. Therefore, they can’t stay home and not work indefinitely. Nor can their employers continue to pay them for adding no value. That’s why Boeing, and many other parts of the economy, need to resume in the interim period while we wait for a vaccine.

Thanks. I do hope things turn out better at Boeing and elsewhere than I think they might.

I do hope people do learn from this episode about preparedness. I do think I've been lucky but someone I know has the saying "luck is the residue of preparedness". I will say I met a lot of people in school who were smarter than me, and never worked a day till after they left college, with mom and dad picking up all the bills for college. I guess because my parents were refugees as kids and immigrants as young adults they learned that the sh*t does hit the fan and you better be prepared for it, and they passed that on to me.

I just saw a post by Dan Rather on Twitter: "You can't gaslight a virus". Seems to me to be an important idea to consider.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:59 am

Revelation wrote:
As I wrote in another thread, N95 means 95% effective at blocking foreign particles, 5% not effective.

I think Boeing is taking a huge risk of being sued if any of its workers get seriously ill or die.

Taking someone's temperature just checks if they're finally showing symptoms after being a carrier for several days.

All this to build planes that airlines don't want or need, so Boeing execs can have a reason to give themselves bonuses.

This could all end in tears.

I think this is another example of a large corporation taking risks and thinking they can deal with the possible blowback later.

That didn't end well with the MAX, and it may not end well here.

Consider a future possible headline: "Epicenter of 2nd Wave of Pandemic: Boeing's Airplane Factory".




I don't always agree with your posts, but I stand 100% behind what you wrote here. Excellent summary!
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:11 am

sxf24 wrote:
....
You were smart, and are, to some extent, lucky. Most people are neither. Therefore, they can’t stay home and not work indefinitely. Nor can their employers continue to pay them for adding no value. That’s why Boeing, and many other parts of the economy, need to resume in the interim period while we wait for a vaccine.


I don't necessarily dispute what you are saying, but what exactly is the goal, for Boeing resuming production? Of planes, that most of their customers are desperate not to take, for now?
Where's value generation in that, if cash conservation appears to be the name of the game both for airplane builders and for most of their customers?
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:23 am

There is a big supply chain behind it that needs to be kept alive and running. A lot of certified staff needs to be kept current. Otherwise the supply chain will disintegrate sooner or later. So it's the right decision to get things going again as early as possible.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:28 am

Right, so it's an investment into long-term supply chain sustainability. There might be a value in it, sure. Who should pay for it? Because (most) airlines surely are too busy staying alive, and are in no position to spend money this way.
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:51 am

It's not like nobody wants new airplanes anymore. Watch Ryanair and how desperately they need and want their MAXes. Will there be big changes concerning orders? Yes. But it will not end the need for new aircraft in general. Just look at post-9-11 for an idea how fast things might catch up and what happened to white tails then. I see lower rates for some time and some big shrink of inflated order books (maybe to more healthy levels now) but enough will be left to keep those main programs going.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:03 am

Questions remain. Like:
1) Are airlines, who want those new planes, ready to put their money where their mouths are? Because sustaining airplane programs needs to be paid for.
1) More specifically, is Ryanair ready to put their money where their mouth is? Like actually paying for those MAXes they are "desperate" for, even though they are not returned to service yet?

Someone has to foot the bill. Airlines go to governments, hat in hand. Boeing mentioned that they want aerospace/airline bailout. US government has to borrow money to finance those...
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:00 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Questions remain. Like:
1) Are airlines, who want those new planes, ready to put their money where their mouths are? Because sustaining airplane programs needs to be paid for.
1) More specifically, is Ryanair ready to put their money where their mouth is? Like actually paying for those MAXes they are "desperate" for, even though they are not returned to service yet?

Someone has to foot the bill. Airlines go to governments, hat in hand. Boeing mentioned that they want aerospace/airline bailout. US government has to borrow money to finance those...

Is it confirmed that Boeing is taking US government money, initially the head said they were inclined not to as they did not want the strings attached or any government stake in the business. However, if their suppliers have taken funds, they have to pay staff to either stay at home doing nothing or go to work and do something. Such would create added pressure on Boeing since more of their upstream work can flow to Boeing versus their international customers who are also in lock down.
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:44 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Questions remain. Like:
1) Are airlines, who want those new planes, ready to put their money where their mouths are? Because sustaining airplane programs needs to be paid for.
1) More specifically, is Ryanair ready to put their money where their mouth is? Like actually paying for those MAXes they are "desperate" for, even though they are not returned to service yet?

Someone has to foot the bill. Airlines go to governments, hat in hand. Boeing mentioned that they want aerospace/airline bailout. US government has to borrow money to finance those...


Yes, most airlines will continue to take delivery and pay for planes. For one, they have a contractual obligation to and Boeing is not going to willingly defer planes that are built or in the process of being built. Second, most airlines are thinking longer term. The current situation will not last forever and they can’t stop fleet planning because of what’s happening today. They’ll need fewer planes, but new planes are still required.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:12 pm

Good, good. The world's largest borrower (US government) needs to borrow more to keep folks employed. It obviously enjoys the benefit of owning world's most valuable printing press, so indeed, for now, this borrowing can be papered over.
Less fortunate sovereign borrowers, who own less respected printing presses, obviously do not have this flexibility. But I digress.

And yes, most airlines will continue, at some point, to take delivery and pay. Meaning:
1) most airlines that make it
2) at some point in time when they need the planes
3) when the money is available AND the planes are certified for commercial operation (cough... MAX... cough...)
In the meantime, USGovt credit card is supposed to be carrying the cost?
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:32 pm

If we are to rely on science to guide COVID -19 decision, then we have to look at the statistic as well.

Revelation mentioned the one Boeing death.

We do not know how that person was infected. Being the first Boeing death, it should be assume that the infection was off-site. From statistic, that death would give Boeing Puget Sound a lower death rate than the general public.

So the question is, given a Boeing employee is subjected to the same human natural tendencies as any one else, how much more risk would that employee face at work, with the mittigations, than hanging around at home?

To call Boeing's action irresponsible would be to view it's current action through the MAX prism and ignore the fact that all of it's COV action seemed to have been coordinated through Washington State's government.

Again it comes down to the individual choice to make their own decision. Boeing is still giving them a choice without threat of layoff. At least not yet.

I have a sister in law who works at Boeing. They are calling her back to blanket shop to make face masks. She and her family decided now is not the time to go back. It is a personal decision. There are people in that blanket shop who will be going back. I understand that those workers are older and would be more at risk, but it is their choice. I will not place jugement on any of these decisions. I just understand that Boeings decision is not as black and white as some may percieve it to be.

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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:04 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Boeing production is considered essential by Washington State and the federal government. The state and CDC are heavily involved in this decision.

A NYT article from the 16th says:

“We have talked about the prospect of Boeing reopening because they are essential, and I’m glad they’ve committed to a robust use of P.P.E. and workplace hygiene,” Gov. Jay Inslee of Washington said in a statement. “We hope to get more details on that, and our agencies will keep talking with them to ensure workers feel safe going to work.”

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/busi ... virus.html

I'm having a hard time finding evidence that this is anything but Boeing deciding to move forward and officials just looking the other way and/or covering their tracks for them.

The same article says:

“Boeing has an established system of assembling aircraft and that system was designed to be efficient at assembling aircraft,” Mr. Gordon said. “It was not designed to be safe under pandemic conditions.”

So, it's all going to be a great experiment to see how many COVID-19 transmissions and/or deaths happen, all done because it's essential to make airliners that airlines largely don't want.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:34 pm

Not sure how reliable we view this news outlet, but it does mention some official involvement..provided by SEEPA, so take that for what it is worth.
It does say the governor is monitoring, and since his stay at home order does not expire until May, someone somewhere in his administration had to declare Boeing a Essential Service in writing for them to legally restart operations, hopefully he has already checked.
https://www.heraldnet.com/business/boei ... next-week/
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:38 pm

bikerthai wrote:
If we are to rely on science to guide COVID -19 decision, then we have to look at the statistic as well.

Revelation mentioned the one Boeing death.

We do not know how that person was infected. Being the first Boeing death, it should be assume that the infection was off-site. From statistic, that death would give Boeing Puget Sound a lower death rate than the general public.

I don't think we can assume that. The fatal case could very well have caught it from a co-worker who had the virus but survived. I'm not sure why you're working so hard to find a way to make this sound like it's safe. The safe thing to do would be for these people to stay home.

bikerthai wrote:
So the question is, given a Boeing employee is subjected to the same human natural tendencies as any one else, how much more risk would that employee face at work, with the mittigations, than hanging around at home?

The more different people you are exposed to, the more likely it is you will be exposed to someone carrying the virus. The NYT article says Boeing will be bringing 27,000 workers back together. That sounds like a lot more people than one would encounter if they are not complying well with quarantine rules. That same person that does not obey quarantine rules will also not obey them after work and will be bringing it in to the factory and sharing it with their co-workers the next day, so they're expanding the virus's footprint by going to work. That same person isn't going to be careful about washing their hands, maintaining personal distance, etc.

bikerthai wrote:
To call Boeing's action irresponsible would be to view it's current action through the MAX prism and ignore the fact that all of it's COV action seemed to have been coordinated through Washington State's government.

See above. I can't find any evidence of what Boeing has done to work with state and federal authorities, and even the Governor of Washington had no more details other than he's glad they're using PPE, for what that's worth. I think people are reading more into what is actually happening than evidence supports. The Seattle Times said they will do temperature testing but it will be voluntary. How many people who want the money more than they care about their health and that of their co-workers will be volunteering for a temperature test?

bikerthai wrote:
Again it comes down to the individual choice to make their own decision. Boeing is still giving them a choice without threat of layoff. At least not yet.

Where you see freedom, I see lack of leadership and abdication of responsibility, quite likely because that's what serves their own personal interests the best.

bikerthai wrote:
I have a sister in law who works at Boeing. They are calling her back to blanket shop to make face masks. She and her family decided now is not the time to go back. It is a personal decision. There are people in that blanket shop who will be going back. I understand that those workers are older and would be more at risk, but it is their choice. I will not place jugement on any of these decisions. I just understand that Boeings decision is not as black and white as some may percieve it to be.

If you think it's not black and white, do you feel it's OK to suggest that corporate greed could be playing a role in this decision? What about power politics? Or it's just individuals exerting their independence and their fee will?

It'd be interesting if workers had to sign a waiver as they entered the factory certifying by using their free will and increasing their exposure to the virus that they will not be eligible for medical care should they become symptomatic. That would be a true sign of independence and free will. Without such, they're just taking the reward of the pay check and not accepting the risks they will be placing on themselves and others by potentially over burdening the medical system. If they want independence and free will, fine, but they shouldn't expect others to take the hit for them.
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smokeybandit
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:50 pm

There are a lot of types of businesses deemed "essential" that seemingly have no reason to be. Why not aircraft manufacturing?
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:18 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
There are a lot of types of businesses deemed "essential" that seemingly have no reason to be. Why not aircraft manufacturing?

Do two wrongs make a right? What you are suggesting is literally the logic of "whataboutism"...
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:24 pm

I do not believe Boeing was ever part of Governor Inslee's Executive Order implementing "Stay at Home" quarantine. To my knowledge, Boeing unilaterally implemented their two-week production stoppage, though there was pressure from the major unions (especially the IAM) about how existing work conditions inhibited or prevented Social Distancing.

The work resumption might also not be solely be driven by "Boeing's greed" - a significant part of their supply chain is reported / believed to also be shut down, either due to local "Stay at Home" orders or because Boeing's lack of production means that Boeing does not need shipments from them. Some of these suppliers are mostly, if not totally, dependent on Boeing and might be very small operations that if they go under, cannot be easily reconstituted with another supplier. Boeing has been spending their own money to keep these and other "critical suppliers" solvent while they are not producing.

And while media reports imply that all 27,000 commercial employees will be returning to work, this might not be true. There are rumors that both Cathay and Lufthansa are attempting to defer 777-9 deliveries or convert them into 777 Freighters, the 747-8 line is producing frames for only one final customer (UPS) and the 787 line is in the process of reducing it's production rate. So none of those lines will likely need full staffing as I could see the 777(X) lines and the 747 line slow production below the pre-closure rates as well as the 787 line could see rate reductions deeper than the current planned Rate 14 to 12 and then 10. This could be handled by reducing the number of people working on each frame, allowing Social Distancing to be maintained while slowing how quickly the frames are produced (due to less labor touches being performed per shift).

The only widebody line that could reasonably be expected to return to "normal" would be the 767 line, and even there, it might behoove Boeing to slow the line a bit when it comes to 767-2C frames to allow the Quality Assurance teams to get their acts together. At the moment, I am guessing FedEx and UPS still want their frames per schedule as they seem to be doing okay during the crisis.

And speaking of the 767-2C and KC-46, I wonder if some of the workers might not be able to be assigned to work on those frames in a QA role which should hopefully allow them to follow Social Distancing guidelines compared to inside the FAL.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
You were smart, and are, to some extent, lucky. Most people are neither. Therefore, they can’t stay home and not work indefinitely. Nor can their employers continue to pay them for adding no value. That’s why Boeing, and many other parts of the economy, need to resume in the interim period while we wait for a vaccine.

Thanks. I do hope things turn out better at Boeing and elsewhere than I think they might.

I do hope people do learn from this episode about preparedness. I do think I've been lucky but someone I know has the saying "luck is the residue of preparedness". I will say I met a lot of people in school who were smarter than me, and never worked a day till after they left college, with mom and dad picking up all the bills for college. I guess because my parents were refugees as kids and immigrants as young adults they learned that the sh*t does hit the fan and you better be prepared for it, and they passed that on to me.

I just saw a post by Dan Rather on Twitter: "You can't gaslight a virus". Seems to me to be an important idea to consider.

And yet, what percentage of US major corporations had 4-6 months' gross "salary" set aside in T-bills for preparedness against disaster? Spoiler: zero of them, because if they had Wall Street raiders would have swooped in to seize control of the corporation and sell the T-bills for distribution to themselves. There are a lot of things that the powers that be advise the workers bees to do so that they can act as a one-family island if need be that they do not do themselves, because our society is interconnected.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:02 pm

New commercial airliner deliveries are not a critical item. A continuing flow of spare parts, replacement subassemblies, software updates, etc. for freighters and critical passenger routes is (speaking from the perspective of an industry that is truly critical and depends on a continuing global flow of supplies).

Fun fact: we were recently advised by our freight management firm to switch some sea shipments to airfreight because the cost would be lower!
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:15 pm

sphealey wrote:
New commercial airliner deliveries are not a critical item. A continuing flow of spare parts, replacement subassemblies, software updates, etc. for freighters and critical passenger routes is (speaking from the perspective of an industry that is truly critical and depends on a continuing global flow of supplies).

Fun fact: we were recently advised by our freight management firm to switch some sea shipments to airfreight because the cost would be lower!

So you think all 27k workers do not do any production for aircraft already in operation, like spare parts etc?
 
sxf24
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Boeing production is considered essential by Washington State and the federal government. The state and CDC are heavily involved in this decision.

A NYT article from the 16th says:

“We have talked about the prospect of Boeing reopening because they are essential, and I’m glad they’ve committed to a robust use of P.P.E. and workplace hygiene,” Gov. Jay Inslee of Washington said in a statement. “We hope to get more details on that, and our agencies will keep talking with them to ensure workers feel safe going to work.”

Ref: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/busi ... virus.html

I'm having a hard time finding evidence that this is anything but Boeing deciding to move forward and officials just looking the other way and/or covering their tracks for them.

The same article says:

“Boeing has an established system of assembling aircraft and that system was designed to be efficient at assembling aircraft,” Mr. Gordon said. “It was not designed to be safe under pandemic conditions.”

So, it's all going to be a great experiment to see how many COVID-19 transmissions and/or deaths happen, all done because it's essential to make airliners that airlines largely don't want.


I’ve been told by employees that the internal communications, which are extensive, refer to approval/coordination with the state and CDC.
 
sphealey
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:44 pm

par13del wrote:
sphealey wrote:
New commercial airliner deliveries are not a critical item. A continuing flow of spare parts, replacement subassemblies, software updates, etc. for freighters and critical passenger routes is (speaking from the perspective of an industry that is truly critical and depends on a continuing global flow of supplies).

Fun fact: we were recently advised by our freight management firm to switch some sea shipments to airfreight because the cost would be lower!

So you think all 27k workers do not do any production for aircraft already in operation, like spare parts etc?

I think you misread my post. Yes, spare parts and support are critical, because airfreight is critical to many other life-critical industries.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:08 pm

par13del wrote:
Not sure how reliable we view this news outlet, but it does mention some official involvement..provided by SEEPA, so take that for what it is worth.
It does say the governor is monitoring, and since his stay at home order does not expire until May, someone somewhere in his administration had to declare Boeing a Essential Service in writing for them to legally restart operations, hopefully he has already checked.
https://www.heraldnet.com/business/boei ... next-week/

Yes, there is a lot of mixed messages and ambiguous statements in that article.

What does "monitor" mean? What standards will be applied?

Whom exactly in the state and federal government is approving this?

Are those government employees willing to take the liability for illnesses and/or deaths should they occur? Or will Boeing? Or is it all on the employees?

Maybe Boeing will hand the victims "Essential Worker" medals and thank them for their sacrifice while building an airplane the customers don't need any time soon.

If Boeing says PPE is "readily available", why are they still OK with employees bringing in their own cloth masks?

Don't they know that cloth masks do not block virus cells? At best they slow down outgoing sneezes and help people avoid nose and mouth contact but do little to block airborne viruses.

Shouldn't they be providing N95 surgical quality masks to each employee, and explaining to them that these only block 95% of virus cells so they still need to maintain distancing?

All of this reeks of wishful thinking rather than professional level preparation, IMO.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
Shouldn't they be providing N95 surgical quality masks to each employee, and explaining to them that these only block 95% of virus cells so they still need to maintain distancing?

I would say this is where the state needs to step up and do their job, work place safety conditions can be enforced by the state. Just as the state has the authority to shut down to May and grant exemptions, they can demand that business houses at least provide N95 masks, indeed one of the requirements of social distancing is a mask, since they are an essential service, higher quality mask should be mandated by the state. As far as we read, Boeing will also be doing social distancing.

Boeing may be doing this purely out of greed, but citizens elect politicians to protect them from such greed, they have a part to play as well, they certainly did not consult much business people when they accepted medical advise to shut down the world economy, they could not have lost their balls in such a short space of time.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
This again gets back to the core question: what is more important, money or health?


It doesn't have to be a binary choice, either. Boeing could do like a lot of other employers and pay the employees while they are furloughed. They could pay their mortgages and be safe.
 
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:14 pm

2175301 wrote:
Your definition is wrong. N95 means that it will filter 95% of all particles 0.3 microns in size, and larger. N99 will filter 99% of all particles 0.3 microns in size, and larger. N 100 will filter 99.97% of all particles 0.3 microns, and larger.

I've seen particle test results for such mask in the past (I used to be the "Safety" person at a power plant and had to decide what kinds of protective equipment to buy for what activities - I had lots of detailed information on all kinds of things). By the time you get to 1 micron in size a N95 mask is essentially 100%

How that relates to virus such as Covid-19. Viruses are typically in the 0.15-2 microns (average 0.17 microns). However, they are not individual dry particles. They are transported within water droplets of at least 5 microns in size. A N95 mask is 100% effective against 5 microns.

Here's a source for most of the critical data here

https://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/re ... rence.html

Unfortunately, even the CDC is putting out partially false information on what the OSHA safety standards really are; and the Wiki article is also not good.

Thanks for the important information on the effectiveness of N95 masks against COVID-19.

Seems I was misinformed about what N95 meant, and as you indicate, there is some misinformation going around the web on this, so my source info was not correct.

But, as above, it's not clear if Boeing is going to be providing N95 surgical masks to employees or not. If I'm reading the link above correctly, it says Boeing will provide cloth masks if employees don't provide their own. It's not clear if they will provide N95 surgical masks because the article mixes together N95 masks and N95 respirators.

It'd be nice if someone can provide a list of what procedures will be followed and what things the company will provide to the employees to keep them safe.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:45 pm

 
2175301
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Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Your definition is wrong. N95 means that it will filter 95% of all particles 0.3 microns in size, and larger. N99 will filter 99% of all particles 0.3 microns in size, and larger. N 100 will filter 99.97% of all particles 0.3 microns, and larger.

Deleted for readability - See above


Thanks for the important information on the effectiveness of N95 masks against COVID-19.

Seems I was misinformed about what N95 meant, and as you indicate, there is some misinformation going around the web on this, so my source info was not correct.

But, as above, it's not clear if Boeing is going to be providing N95 surgical masks to employees or not. If I'm reading the link above correctly, it says Boeing will provide cloth masks if employees don't provide their own. It's not clear if they will provide N95 surgical masks because the article mixes together N95 masks and N95 respirators.

It'd be nice if someone can provide a list of what procedures will be followed and what things the company will provide to the employees to keep them safe.


I doubt that Boeing or anyone will be supplying employees N95 masks except for hospitals and certain industries where they are vital (OSHA has already issued "regulatory discretion" for companies to just do the best they can or to use various masks from other countries that meet similar to N95 requirements - including a table of which countries and the similar standards.

I would also point out that there is a big difference between a N95 mask - which is a respirator that seals reasonably well to the face, a Surgical Mask, a disposable medical mask that is common, and some other cloth mask.

A N95 mask is a disposable respirator which can be fit tested to show that it seals reasonably well against the face. Strap on Silicone rubber, rubber, etc half or full face masks that have replaceable filters are much better (and then you get into positive pressure air supplied respirators which are better yet).

A "Surgical Mask" meets both a particle and fluid stopping (blood spurt, coughing up phlegm, etc) standard by ASTM (The particle test is similar to N95, but not the same: Surgical Masks will stop a 5 micron droplet). You most commonly see ASTM Level 1 masks for minor surgeries and dental cleanings and simple dental work. ASTM Level 2 and 3 are used for more significant dental work or surgeries. However, they do not seal to the face well and are known to leak a fair amount at the edges where they are not tight to the skin. However, decades of medical history says that they are adequate for most situations (and ASTM Level 2 and 3 do work better than ASTM Level 1).

The common disposable medical mask that you are given at the Clinic or a hospital - and what many nurses and other staff wear, has no specific particle filtration or fluid ratings. They have passed no tests. They meet no standards. Yet, decades of medical history do show that they make a difference.

Cloth masks will work worse than the common disposable medical mask. But, still may make a difference.

I doubt that Boeing can get actual Surgical Masks. All the dental and Medical supply companies are either sold out or only accepting new clients if they are a Dental/Medical facility or can supply a medical license number. I know - I tried to buy a box for my personal use (I did find one on Amazon for I am sure about 4X its normal price). That should allow me to return to work in a week or two when I get it (I'm only now starting to feel a lot better - it's been 7 weeks of what I assume is Covid-19; but, I never got sick enough to be tested).

Boeing can say that they are following the current recommendations of the CDC, which significantly shields them from a medical liability claim. If someone gets sick while at Boeing that is a Workers Compensation Case, even if the person dies - and Workers Compensation pays the resulting death settlement (I know this because I participate on another forum where most of the members own home heating and service companies - and there's been a long thread about the requirement to consider Covid-19 as a reportable injury should an employee be exposed to Covid-19 while on the job. That further protects Boeing from Legal Liability.

I saw an estimate that there is at least 10 times the cases of Covid-19 than is being reported in the USA by confirmed positives due to the unavailability of testing.

Have a great day,
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 3413
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:37 am

2175301 wrote:
If someone gets sick while at Boeing that is a Workers Compensation Case, even if the person dies - and Workers Compensation pays the resulting death settlement


If someone get sick at Boeing, the medical bills are paid by insurance which is self funded by Boeing. It comes out of their pocket. Or at least that's how it used to be.

27000 sounds like a lot. Bur if you spread it over 3 major sites with dozens if giant buildings, social distancing would not be an issue. The only time when the workers are close proximity will be when they line up for clocking in and out.

If you ever vet to see the Everett factory tour, you would wonder where are all the workers. An automotive asemly line it is not.

One thing I am aware is they will be adjusting shift start to avoid the standard over lap.

As for the union concern, SPEEA which represents the engineer is not yet in the picture as the vast majority of engineers are still working from home. The IAM is the union that should be in play. They are more combatitive and would voice any concern.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
2175301
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:47 am

bikerthai wrote:
2175301 wrote:
If someone gets sick while at Boeing that is a Workers Compensation Case, even if the person dies - and Workers Compensation pays the resulting death settlement


If someone get sick at Boeing, the medical bills are paid by insurance which is self funded by Boeing. It comes out of their pocket. Or at least that's how it used to be.

27000 sounds like a lot. Bur if you spread it over 3 major sites with dozens if giant buildings, social distancing would not be an issue. The only time when the workers are close proximity will be when they line up for clocking in and out.

If you ever vet to see the Everett factory tour, you would wonder where are all the workers. An automotive asemly line it is not.

One thing I am aware is they will be adjusting shift start to avoid the standard over lap.

As for the union concern, SPEEA which represents the engineer is not yet in the picture as the vast majority of engineers are still working from home. The IAM is the union that should be in play. They are more combatitive and would voice any concern.

bt


Have you ever gone to the Dr or to an emergency room and they ask you if your illness or injury is work related. If you answer "yes" the medical center First bills workers comp for the medical services. Now your state workers comp board may contact your employer and they can discuss who is responsible... (and if it is not work related then it will come back to your health insurance). But, this is commonly how its done in every state I've ever worked in; and an article I read when I was a manager said that it was a nationwide practice.

Job related illnesses and injuries are covered by workers comp, and not your individual health insurance.


Edited to add: If you become sick and it is later determined to be job related; all of your prior bills will be shifted from your health insurance and yourself to workers comp. Standard practice.


Have a great day,
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2221
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:09 am

Boeing is a Washington State Self Insured Employer for Workmen's Compensation, refer to this link where they list the 29 Boeing entities that are self insured, all administered by Sedgwick with a mailing address in Kentucky. Boeing is paying for their worker's healthcare either thru this Workmen's Comp insurance or thru the employee's healthcare. Boeing would be doing the right thing if all Covid cases went thru WC, because it covers pay during recovery without using sick leave.
https://lni.wa.gov/insurance/self-insur ... d-employer

Industrial and Construction masks are NIOSH regulated, with the N95 mask being quite common, Home Depot carries them normally by the bin full, but are totally out of stock for months. Back in March the FDA posted that NIOSH masks may be substituted without restriction as they have the same efficiency.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-N95-Pain ... /202199855
https://images.homedepot-static.com/cat ... 19be63.pdf

FDA regulates medical masks, the masks worn by staff in most surgeries without evidence of an infectious disease is the N95 mask which is the ones with the ear loops and pre Covid cost in hospital sized bulk orders less than $0.10 each. There are other ear loop masks that don't have the needle pierced membrane that ensures the 95% of 0.3 micron particles captured. Respirators are required where the lack of edge seal on the mask could cause contamination.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/per ... face-masks

Air Filters for most surgical suites are ASHRAE 52.2 MERV14 with prefiltering at MERV8, MERV14 remove 75% of <1.0 micron, 90% of 1.0 to 3.0 micron, and 95% of > 3.0 micron particles. Aseptic spaces and clean rooms use prefilter with MERV8 and MERV14 and then a HEPA filter which is 99.97% of 0.3 micron and larger particles.

Boeing Everett's main plant is massive, 4.3 million square feet. Separation at 6' means a 6'x6' area, lets use a standard of 10'x10' average. Then just the main plant building could have social distancing for 47,000 people in just that building. Boeing has 27,000 employees in the Puget Sound Area on multiple sites and shifts as well as those that work outdoors. So social distancing appears to be doable
 
astuteman
Posts: 7146
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:07 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Boeing Everett's main plant is massive, 4.3 million square feet. Separation at 6' means a 6'x6' area, lets use a standard of 10'x10' average. Then just the main plant building could have social distancing for 47,000 people in just that building. Boeing has 27,000 employees in the Puget Sound Area on multiple sites and shifts as well as those that work outdoors. So social distancing appears to be doable


That's great. However, working in a very large manufacturing facility myself (if I wasn't working from home just now) I know how difficult it is to get the right people into the right places in the right numbers to make everyone's contribution deliver value.

Workshops - great.

Inside the fuselage of a 737 in final assembly? Not so great.
(still way better than the product I'm used to, I have to say :) )

And the latter will be a critical constraint on output. Although that probably isn't such an issue right at thins moment

Rgds
 
User avatar
PepeTheFrog
Posts: 389
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Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
I see things very differently. Boeing going back to production next week is not essential. People's health is. People can survive financial hardship. Death is permanent. Boeing can and will survive financial hardship. If things get really bad eventually stock holders might get wiped out, but Boeing will survive. It's happened to other companies before. All three of the legacy US airlines went through bankruptcy in the 00s and all rebounded. It took a few years but it happened. I think we can all agree that a dead person is never going to be not dead. Boeing is really foolish to be putting itself into this position.


Boeing has put safety measures in place. If people can go back to work safely, why not?
Good moaning!
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24370
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing to Restart Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:35 pm

par13del wrote:

It's a bit less sketchy than the media reports, but still I find the following to be dubious:

Face coverings will be a requirement for employees at Boeing sites in Washington. Employees are strongly encouraged to bring in their own procedural mask or face covering; those who do not have a mask available will be provided with one.

I assume "procedural mask" is lawyer speak for a mask manufactured to medical/industrial standards, whereas "face covering" is just a piece of cloth to cover the face, either home made or factory made. My mom has sewn dozens of masks for friends and family. I have one. I know it's better than nothing, but it's also not guaranteed in any way, nor tested in any way, so no one can say if it's doing anything at all. I do know since it's cotton it will collect bacteria like crazy once my breathing makes it wet, so I only wear it when I know I'll be close to other people (grocery store etc) and I immediately wash it when I get home.

It is disappointing that Boeing are treating these as equivalents when they certainly are not. One gives a known amount of protection. The other IMO is largely a placebo giving the illusion of protection.

Also the "procedural masks" have limits on their usefulness. They are designed to be used at most for a work shift and then disposed. Normally they are used for one patient examination or surgery and are disposed. A lot of people are trying to work out a way to sterilize them after use, but aren't that successful because the product simply was not designed for re-use.

2175301 wrote:
I would also point out that there is a big difference between a N95 mask - which is a respirator that seals reasonably well to the face, a Surgical Mask, a disposable medical mask that is common, and some other cloth mask.

Thank you for your detailed post. I may preempt a bit by saying I see the source of confusion. The people I'm working with in the maker community refer to "N95 respirator" to describe what you just called "N95 mask" and use "N95 mask" to describe the surgical mask you're describing. I think this is the same usage that JayInKitsap is using below.

People in our community have had a lot of success making plastic face shields and are really trying to get to the point of making "N95 masks". One big problem is as you say they cannot be sewn because of through holes and industrial grade sealing equipment is needed to get an acceptable product. That's a challenge since many don't have access to high grade sealers so are trying to make low grade home sealers work. A few are trying "N95 respirators" but making the filtering elements are a real challenge. It's hard to make ones that are effective yet pass enough air so the wearer can breathe.

2175301 wrote:
A N95 mask is a disposable respirator which can be fit tested to show that it seals reasonably well against the face. Strap on Silicone rubber, rubber, etc half or full face masks that have replaceable filters are much better (and then you get into positive pressure air supplied respirators which are better yet).

The common disposable medical mask that you are given at the Clinic or a hospital - and what many nurses and other staff wear, has no specific particle filtration or fluid ratings. They have passed no tests. They meet no standards. Yet, decades of medical history do show that they make a difference.

Cloth masks will work worse than the common disposable medical mask. But, still may make a difference.

I doubt that Boeing can get actual Surgical Masks. All the dental and Medical supply companies are either sold out or only accepting new clients if they are a Dental/Medical facility or can supply a medical license number. I know - I tried to buy a box for my personal use (I did find one on Amazon for I am sure about 4X its normal price). That should allow me to return to work in a week or two when I get it (I'm only now starting to feel a lot better - it's been 7 weeks of what I assume is Covid-19; but, I never got sick enough to be tested).

The solution seems to be simple: don't bring your employees back to work till you can know they will be safe.

If you're the CEO, don't say things like "PPE are readily available" when all of us know they are not and you are asking employees to bring their own "face coverings" to work instead of providing actual protective equipment.

Thank you and others for the info on health insurance and workman's comp. I hope the employees realize there are limits to what the employers and the government can do for them or their families if they get sick or if they die.

JayinKitsap wrote:
Industrial and Construction masks are NIOSH regulated, with the N95 mask being quite common, Home Depot carries them normally by the bin full, but are totally out of stock for months. Back in March the FDA posted that NIOSH masks may be substituted without restriction as they have the same efficiency.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-N95-Pain ... /202199855
https://images.homedepot-static.com/cat ... 19be63.pdf

FDA regulates medical masks, the masks worn by staff in most surgeries without evidence of an infectious disease is the N95 mask which is the ones with the ear loops and pre Covid cost in hospital sized bulk orders less than $0.10 each. There are other ear loop masks that don't have the needle pierced membrane that ensures the 95% of 0.3 micron particles captured. Respirators are required where the lack of edge seal on the mask could cause contamination.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/per ... face-masks

Air Filters for most surgical suites are ASHRAE 52.2 MERV14 with prefiltering at MERV8, MERV14 remove 75% of <1.0 micron, 90% of 1.0 to 3.0 micron, and 95% of > 3.0 micron particles. Aseptic spaces and clean rooms use prefilter with MERV8 and MERV14 and then a HEPA filter which is 99.97% of 0.3 micron and larger particles.

Thank you also for the information. As I wrote above, in my community we use "N95 mask" for cloth mask, "N95 respirator" for the snug face fitting device described in the earlier post.

And if you want to enter our maker space facility, each individual will need board of director permission to enter (yes, really!) and you will have to be wearing a N95 respirator. Forget about any kind of cloth mask, professional or home made, the people in our community who do this stuff for a living say it is not safe enough.
Last edited by Revelation on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24370
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing to Stop Washington State Aircraft Production

Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:38 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I see things very differently. Boeing going back to production next week is not essential. People's health is. People can survive financial hardship. Death is permanent. Boeing can and will survive financial hardship. If things get really bad eventually stock holders might get wiped out, but Boeing will survive. It's happened to other companies before. All three of the legacy US airlines went through bankruptcy in the 00s and all rebounded. It took a few years but it happened. I think we can all agree that a dead person is never going to be not dead. Boeing is really foolish to be putting itself into this position.


Boeing has put safety measures in place. If people can go back to work safely, why not?

I have my doubts that they will be safe. Boeing has used vague, CYA (cover your ass) statements like "We are following CDC guidelines". These are the same people who used "Jedi mind tricks" to get the FAA to do what best served their interests. I think they need to do better. See above.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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