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ryanflyer
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China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:59 pm

While I was under impression that something like this would take a recertification, China Eastern has Removed seats on one of their A330 aircraft to put it into a 42Y and All J seating, with the rest of the space for cargo. Does anyone have any other insight into this, and or the regulations behind it?


https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/statu ... 43840?s=20
 
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Francoflier
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:09 pm

They are only removing seats in order to transport cargo pallets on the main deck, without passengers.
They are basically using pax airplanes as cargo airplanes, as several airlines around Asia are doing in a time all passengers are grounded, but finding ways to put some cargo on the main deck as well instead of just using the holds.

This is temporary, and not a combi conversion.

As for the crash wall that is supposed to protect the flight deck in proper cargo airplanes, I suspect they may have had a temporary exemption from the CAAC as long as the cargo is light and not dense (surgical masks in this case), and some rows of seats are left fwd of the cargo to absorb any potential impact... or something of the sort.

Pretty smart way of using your otherwise useless aircraft in a time of crisis if you ask me.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:24 pm

How do pallets fit through the main deck door?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:28 pm

They will have to bulk load the maindeck as it doesn't have a cargo door that would fit a pallet, but that should not be a big issue. This is much more volume them putting boxes on the seats as has been done many times this last week.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:55 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
How do pallets fit through the main deck door?


I meant small, common pallets (made out of wood or plastic), on which the cargo is stacked, not proper aviation cargo pallets.
I'm guessing they put nets on them and tie everything up to the seat rails.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
raylee67
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:17 pm

ryanflyer wrote:
and or the regulations behind it?


The tweet says "...to transport medical supplies during #COVID19 outbreak..."

So this is not an ordinary civilian flight. I would think that for emergency use, anything goes, as long as the plane can lift off and stay in the air.

For example, El Al has flown a 747 with 1,122 passengers on board on an evacuation flight from Addis Ababa back in 1991. Surely "illegal" under any regulation.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
trex8
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:25 pm

Some DC10 operators , LH, have several luggage containers they could stash in the back of the cabin which only fit through the regular doors?
I would think a lot of other Far East carriers with big cargo ops may start doing similar to MU or as OS did wth the cargo in the seats, eg CX, CI, KE

from previous thread DC10/baggage containers
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/view ... 7&start=15
viewtopic.php?t=567039
Last edited by trex8 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
IWMBH
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:41 pm

trex8 wrote:
Some DC10 operators , LH, have several luggage containers they could stash in the back of the cabin which only fit through the regular doors?
I would think a lot of other Far East carriers with big cargo ops may start doing similar to MU or as OS did wth the cargo in the seats, eg CX, CI, KE

from previous thread DC10/baggage containers
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/view ... 7&start=15
viewtopic.php?t=567039


The photo of the DC-10 was taken before the SAA crash. You can’t do that anymore, at least not with passengers on board. But, as mentioned above for most carriers that’s not an issue because there are no passengers willing to fly these days.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:21 pm

Francoflier wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
How do pallets fit through the main deck door?


I meant small, common pallets (made out of wood or plastic), on which the cargo is stacked, not proper aviation cargo pallets.
I'm guessing they put nets on them and tie everything up to the seat rails.


A standard pallet still wouldn't fit. I'm guessing you'd have to go down to a half-europallet.
 
A388
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:50 pm

The term A330 Combi in such cases is misleading. This is no combi aircraft in any sense of the word. It's still a passenger aircraft. The only difference being that some seats have been removed in order to carry smaller sized cargo being loaded on this main deck where the seats have been removed. Nothing else. There is no strengthened main deck floor, no main deck cargo door and only specific types of cargo can be loaded on to this "cargo main deck". No re-certification is needed as this is only permitted as an exception due to the Covid-19 crisis.

A388
 
trex8
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:37 pm

Can CAAC "approve" MU or other Chinese carriers doing this "permanently" and will eg EASE/FAA allow these planes to operate routinely into their jurisdictions?
 
alasizon
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:23 am

As long as the cargo is restrained and the resulting load from an accident less than the max G load of the seats it would be crashing into, I see no reason why CAAC wouldn't allow this on a temporary basis.

That being said, I suspect the cargo is free loaded onto a pallet inside the aircraft and then secured which would be a pain.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
andrej
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:26 am

For all curious minds, this A330 is being offloaded in Prague.

All credit to: Dan Materna, MAFRA

Image

Image
 
VSMUT
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:57 am

I've done this sort of cargo flying, in Europe of all places. Really rare, but not illegal. There were strict rules on not placing dangerous goods there, only non-flammable stuff. In practice you would place a piece of plywood down to distribute the weight, then stack the boxes on top, finally strapping it down with a net and straps to the seat rails. Loading and offloading required lots of manual work carrying boxes and cases through the aisle.

Air Greenland often puts mail sacks in the passenger seats.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:49 am

trex8 wrote:
Can CAAC "approve" MU or other Chinese carriers doing this "permanently"

Can they? Well, they're the authority for what goes on in Chinese aviation, so not sure what would stop them.


trex8 wrote:
will eg EASE/FAA allow these planes to operate routinely into their jurisdictions?

FAA has made it more than clear that they won't be approving same-deck combis without a fixed bulkhead; so the likelihood of them allowing such in US operations, in all but the most inconceivable circumstances (which I doubt even this qualifies as), is slim to none.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kelval
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:09 am

I doubt there would be any interest in making this permanent anyways.
This is a crisis relief solution, not an efficient one.
 
tvh
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:57 am

They should use catering trucks to load and unload, plenty unused for the moment.
 
tcas69
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:10 am

This is the temporary solution on an Austrian 777 Xiamen Vienna
around 4 of their fleet in shuttle mode Penang, Xiamen Shanghai bringing coronaequipment to Austria and Italy

www.austrianwings.info/fileadmin/aw/202 ... to_ZVG.jpg
 
Gemuser
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:10 am

LAX772LR wrote:
trex8 wrote:
Can CAAC "approve" MU or other Chinese carriers doing this "permanently"

Can they? Well, they're the authority for what goes on in Chinese aviation, so not sure what would stop them.


trex8 wrote:
will eg EASE/FAA allow these planes to operate routinely into their jurisdictions?

FAA has made it more than clear that they won't be approving same-deck combis without a fixed bulkhead; so the likelihood of them allowing such in US operations, in all but the most inconceivable circumstances (which I doubt even this qualifies as), is slim to none.


If the FAA did not allow such converted aircraft registered in China & operated by Chinese airlines into US airspace they would be vilolating the ICAO conventions and inviting retaliations. If the Chinese pushed it IMHO the FAA would turn a blind eye lest they find that B787s are not allowed in Chinese airspace, much like they did to the BA 3 engined B747 flight from near LAX to the UK.

Actually it won't come to that it will be worked out diplomatically, if it even arises.

Gemuser
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:35 pm

Gemuser wrote:
If the FAA did not allow such converted aircraft registered in China & operated by Chinese airlines into US airspace they would be vilolating the ICAO conventions

What specific provision requires reciprocal approval of a foreign design/configuration deemed by a civil authority to be unsafe?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
trex8
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:14 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
If the FAA did not allow such converted aircraft registered in China & operated by Chinese airlines into US airspace they would be vilolating the ICAO conventions

What specific provision requires reciprocal approval of a foreign design/configuration deemed by a civil authority to be unsafe?

Having pax/cargo at the same time on main deck in a 'combi" configuration without certifiable barrier will certainly not be ok, but having only cargo and crew on main deck and no pax on a "pax" plane might be ok?
Anyone know what the rules are for crew (flight/loadmasters) and main deck cargo on freighters? Is there a need for some fire/smoke barrier? I know most freighters do have something.
 
Gemuser
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:45 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
If the FAA did not allow such converted aircraft registered in China & operated by Chinese airlines into US airspace they would be vilolating the ICAO conventions

What specific provision requires reciprocal approval of a foreign design/configuration deemed by a civil authority to be unsafe?

If you read the convention AND the documents on the ICAO web site ALL members of ICAO are required to accept the certifications of all other members, unless that certification does not comply with ICAO rules, for aircraft and airlines registered in that country That is the whole basis of intenational civil aviation. There are specified exemption which require specific approval.
So UNLESS the fixed barrier is an ICAO requirement [which it could be IDK but I've never seen it referred to as such but it could be] then banning an aircraft which complies with ICAO rules would be a violation of the convention.

As I said in the previous post, IF it becomes an issue the diplomats will sort it out.I am pretty sure that your State Depart is the relevent USA authority for treaty compliance matters as is our DFAT in Australia.

Gemuser
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am

Gemuser wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
If the FAA did not allow such converted aircraft registered in China & operated by Chinese airlines into US airspace they would be vilolating the ICAO conventions

What specific provision requires reciprocal approval of a foreign design/configuration deemed by a civil authority to be unsafe?

If you read the convention AND the documents on the ICAO web site ALL members of ICAO are required to accept the certifications of all other members, unless that certification does not comply with ICAO rules, for aircraft and airlines registered in that country That is the whole basis of intenational civil aviation. There are specified exemption which require specific approval.

You're taking way too generalist of an approach.

I'll stand corrected if you can show otherwise, but there's no ICAO provision that would force a CAA with preexisting statutory prohibitions (14 CRF 25; sections 25.851, 25.855, 25.857) against a design or configuration, on the basis of safety, resulting from TSB recommendations due to a mass-fatality; into complying with a subsequent unilateral approval of that same design or config., with no exemption. It's not even implicit.

Yes, I'm aware that diplomats on both sides would likely try to talk sense into the approving party; but still the concept above remains.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Gemuser
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What specific provision requires reciprocal approval of a foreign design/configuration deemed by a civil authority to be unsafe?

If you read the convention AND the documents on the ICAO web site ALL members of ICAO are required to accept the certifications of all other members, unless that certification does not comply with ICAO rules, for aircraft and airlines registered in that country That is the whole basis of intenational civil aviation. There are specified exemption which require specific approval.

You're taking way too generalist of an approach.

I'll stand corrected if you can show otherwise, but there's no ICAO provision that would force a CAA with preexisting statutory prohibitions (14 CRF 25; sections 25.851, 25.855, 25.857) against a design or configuration, on the basis of safety, resulting from TSB recommendations due to a mass-fatality; into complying with a subsequent unilateral approval of that same design or config., with no exemption. It's not even implicit.

Yes, I'm aware that diplomats on both sides would likely try to talk sense into the approving party; but still the concept above remains.

My training in the area IS old, but I doubt the basics have changed much since then.

Gemuser
 
mxaxai
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:55 am

Gemuser wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
I'll stand corrected if you can show otherwise, but there's no ICAO provision that would force a CAA with preexisting statutory prohibitions (14 CRF 25; sections 25.851, 25.855, 25.857) against a design or configuration, on the basis of safety, resulting from TSB recommendations due to a mass-fatality; into complying with a subsequent unilateral approval of that same design or config., with no exemption. It's not even implicit.

Yes, I'm aware that diplomats on both sides would likely try to talk sense into the approving party; but still the concept above remains.

My training in the area IS old, but I doubt the basics have changed much since then.

Gemuser

Wasn't the 737max banned from many countries' airspace unilaterally? I agree that usually countries accept each others' certifications and if you look at, for example, EASA regulations those explicitly only apply to aircraft registered in an EASA member state. Nevertheless, countries can and sometimes do close their airspace to certain foreign registered aircraft. Other examples would be the EU and FAA prohibiting some carriers from entering, or countries demanding that certain equipment (like ADS-B) be installed.
 
tomcat
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:08 pm

tvh wrote:
They should use catering trucks to load and unload, plenty unused for the moment.


Or install a sheet of plywood over the stairs so that they can slide the boxes downstairs. This would only require to install a padded reception area to avoid damaging the boxes at the bottom of the slide. The a baggage loader unit could transfer the boxes from the reception area to the truck.
 
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zkojq
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:15 pm

Airbus A330-200MRTT carrying supplies from Tianjin to Getafe:

Image
First to fly the 787-9
 
WayexTDI
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:19 am

zkojq wrote:
Airbus A330-200MRTT carrying supplies from Tianjin to Getafe:

Image

Which country was that MRTT from?
 
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zkojq
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:27 am

WayexTDI wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Airbus A330-200MRTT carrying supplies from Tianjin to Getafe:

Image

Which country was that MRTT from?


Good question - I'm not sure. It's one which is yet to be delivered to it's customer. Still painted in the yellow primer. It has Rolls Royce engines if that's any help.

https://twitter.com/Airbus/status/12438 ... 17920?s=19
First to fly the 787-9
 
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Francoflier
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Re: China Eastern A330 Combi

Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:12 am

Airbus has also sent the A330-800 prototype to Tianjin to bring medical supplies back to Europe:

I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

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