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Nicknuzzii
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EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:18 pm

EWR - LHR has shrunken from 1.3 million pax in 2012 to under 980,000 in 2019. The market has also lost 3 carriers in the past few years and airlines have cut frequencies. UA the dominant carrier has also cut seats for larger biz cabins. Is this market only for premium demand anymore or will it expand in the future?
 
Clackers
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:21 pm

There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!
 
Cory6188
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:25 pm

Clackers wrote:
I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


I think UA, and a lot of people who live in NJ and the west side of Manhattan, would disagree with that assessment. For the record, using your example, SQ's only non-stop flight to the NYC area goes to EWR, not JFK.
 
Toinou
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:28 pm

I don't know about LHR but from others places in Europe some airlines fly to both, LX for example. I guess that potential slot restrictions in JFK shouldn't be the (only) reason.
Last edited by Toinou on Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:29 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


EWR is actually more expensive than JFK probably because of its close proximity to Manhattan. There is no comparison between EWR to STN, EWR is more like LGW. And I think it’s funny how you mention SQ flying to STN and how they would never chose an airport like that but in fact they fly the worlds longest flight to EWR.
 
gregn21
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:30 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


SQ literally flies to EWR nonstop over JFK. EWR is complementary to JFK, not at a lower level. They each serve slightly different geographic areas and cater to certain alliances with Skyteam and Oneworld centered at JFK and Star focused mostly on EWR.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:42 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


You’re obviously not a New Yorker...
Come fly the sun.
 
asuflyer
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:55 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


Completely wrong, EWR is more marginally more expensive to operate from than JFK. Yet SQ does fly to EWR. There are also lots of big industry in NJ, pharma, consumer goods, and the Port of Newark to name a few.
 
Clackers
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:04 pm

Clackers wrote:
Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?


Gate space is actually harder to come by at EWR than JFK and if anything EWR is more delay prone than JFK so I’m not sure how they would be saving fuel.
 
880dc8707
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:44 pm

A possible reason for the decline in pax at EWR is more flights from cities that now have N/S. PIT,AUS,CHS,MSY etc. Connex were much better for EWR , JFK more O/D, but EWR still has good location for west side NYC, North Jersey and remaining connex cities, a hugh catchment area.. If you think EWR id a 2nd class airport, drive by about 4pm and look at the tails.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:48 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


Could not be more incorrect. EWR is not STN. At one time, it might have been NY's equivalent of LGW in some may, but it is actually not cheap to fly to EWR (gate space is very limited, air traffic is even more congested than JFK). It's not a niche market either. Pre-COVID, UA has up to 6 daily on low density planes, with BA flying the route as well. VS has just exited it, apparently permanently, which is notable, as it was the first US destination for VS when it began flying. EWR is essentially a fortress hub for UA and a major advantage it has over the other US carriers with a NY footprint of size is that it does it under one roof. It's no longer meant to be a connecting hub but rather an O&D station with more connection traffic flowed to IAD for UA.

There's no boasting about flying into JFK or EWR.

STN may have evolved, but it remains an LCC airport, for the most part. EWR certainly isn't that.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:49 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
880dc8707 wrote:
A possible reason for the decline in pax at EWR is more flights from cities that now have N/S. PIT,AUS,CHS,MSY etc. Connex were much better for EWR , JFK more O/D, but EWR still has good location for west side NYC, North Jersey and remaining connex cities, a hugh catchment area.. If you think EWR id a 2nd class airport, drive by about 4pm and look at the tails.


That’s a good point you made about the connecting pax. UA has cut a lot of regional flights from EWR and JFK is actually more connections now than EWR.
 
catiii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:51 pm

Clackers wrote:
Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?


Fuel savings? :rotfl:

you keep showing your lack of knowledge of the NYC market. EWR is not a niche market for NYC, and certainly not for business traffic. If "prestige" is a driver, which it isn't, arguably the prestigious businesses in the financial district, and the residents in the prestigious west side neighborhoods, are all much closer to EWR than LGA or JFK.
 
gdavis003
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:55 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


Ummmmm not at all. It's the primary airport for NJ residents. I am in central Jersey though so usually fly PHL domestic and EWR international because I like PHL much more but PHL international is much more expensive. EWR is closer to me than PHL but PHL is not too far. Did fly EWR-LHR on UA a few months ago and it was cheaper than PHL but was the 10 PM departure which left at 3 AM after having to switch planes due to maintenance.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:58 pm

Clackers wrote:
Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?

Why are you even making such declarative statements when you clearly have NO CLUE what you're talking about?


It's no shock to anyone that EWR is more expensive when:
it sits on smaller land, with fewer runways, fewer gates, more compact facilities, insane airspace restrictions, and is even more congested and delay-prone than JFK manages to be.


"Prestige" is a factor most airlines gave up on in 1978... so you're about 4 decades off with that assessment.


And lastly, SQ flies nonstop to EWR because that's what the market *demands*. That nonstop has operated for a cumulative 11yrs now. At any point during both of its operational histories, SQ could've (and would've) switched it over to JFK if they felt they could derive a benefit from doing so.
    ..............they didn't.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
CALMSP
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:59 pm

Clackers wrote:
Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?


prefer to land at LHR over LGW mostly due to the proximity to the city. Landing at JFK/EWR doesn't have that large of a difference as LGW/LHR have.
Last edited by CALMSP on Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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adambrau
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:02 pm

Ridiculous how many times has has this topic come up. Must be among the top 10 repeat threads in Flyertalk Civil Aviation history?
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N649DL
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:12 pm

880dc8707 wrote:
A possible reason for the decline in pax at EWR is more flights from cities that now have N/S. PIT,AUS,CHS,MSY etc. Connex were much better for EWR , JFK more O/D, but EWR still has good location for west side NYC, North Jersey and remaining connex cities, a hugh catchment area.. If you think EWR id a 2nd class airport, drive by about 4pm and look at the tails.


Actually, IIRC some UA Express destinations got routed for connections to IAD over EWR to improve flow at EWR. One of those destinations was BDL.

UA operates their "High-J" 763s on EWR-LHR which literally half the plane going back to the rear exit rows are configured with the new Polaris Business Class configuration. So obviously a big market for them and long anticipated.

I was surprised to see that VS no longer flies EWR-LHR? That's odd if so since they have been a carrier at EWR since the 1980s. That said BA still flies EWR-LHR so I wouldn't say it's a niche market, it's just not as popular for airlines as JFK by comparison. A "niche" market would be something where UA doesn't fly but one of their codeshare partners does such as EWR-OSL on SAS.

People forget but back in 2015 Delta even tried out EWR-LHR but dropped it fairly quickly. They didn't really promote it heavily though.
 
hpff
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:15 pm

I don't think it's a niche market at all, EWR is a lot more convenient from midtown Manhattan than JFK but JFK also has a large catchment area and more space.

What you're actually seeing is more Star Alliance carriers either start service or increase service from EWR (ignoring COVID, at least theoretically) like NZ or TK, which obviously doesn't impact the EWR-LHR route. If you're not in Star Alliance, you're looking at JFK first and then to EWR second.

In terms of flying out of New York though it really depends on your geographic location with the rivers and all that, but EWR/JFK are functionally the same market.
 
skipness1E
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:16 pm

But when will the B757 production line be re-opened? This is the “Airliners.net Greatest Hits” thread, right?
 
ukoverlander
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:25 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


I'm sorry but comparing Newark to Stansted and claiming it is "not to be taken seriously" is IMO ridiculous (and I say this as a Brit). Newark is served by 39 airlines flying to 185 destinations. Stansted is served by 16 airlines and is largely an LCC airport.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:28 pm

Clackers wrote:
Ok, interesting replies. Seems I got that wrong, EWR is actually, for some reason, more expensive than JFK.

Still, on a pure prestige factor, you would prefer to land at LHR rather than LGW, so that applies to JFK over EWR (unless a niche businessperson).

And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?


Sometimes it's better to just stop talking - just sayin'.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:45 pm

hpff wrote:
I don't think it's a niche market at all, EWR is a lot more convenient from midtown Manhattan than JFK but JFK also has a large catchment area and more space.

What you're actually seeing is more Star Alliance carriers either start service or increase service from EWR (ignoring COVID, at least theoretically) like NZ or TK, which obviously doesn't impact the EWR-LHR route. If you're not in Star Alliance, you're looking at JFK first and then to EWR second.

In terms of flying out of New York though it really depends on your geographic location with the rivers and all that, but EWR/JFK are functionally the same market.


Star is bigger at EWR, We have up to 3x daily TAP service, 4x SAS, AC, and LH temporarily suspended JFK for EWR.
 
UAUA
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:47 pm

Heard that EWR is now busier than JFK

A lot of people dislike JFK and prefer EWR. Why?
My former profile name was United Airline.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:51 pm

UAUA wrote:
Heard that EWR is now busier than JFK

A lot of people dislike JFK and prefer EWR. Why?


Busier can be taken in a number of ways but when looking at the total pax served JFK is about 20% larger. JFK is significantly further from NYC, NJ, and PA then EWR and a lot more chaotic. EWR does have more daily flights than JFK.
 
blueflyer
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:03 pm

I think United has intentionally been pushing more East Coast / Midwest connections through IAD so they could capture more of the high-value NY Metro O/D traffic. Less passengers but higher revenue, and taking advantage of the lower costs at IAD.

Clackers wrote:
Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!

If prestige rules, considers this - Singapore served both JFK and EWR, only JFK is one-stop via FRA (and before AMS/BRU) and EWR has always been non-stop. One guess as to which one of the two airports has the highest ticket prices in C, nearly zero corporate discounts, and no non-rev allowed. Guess New Jersey must feel pretty proud.

Clackers wrote:
And I suspect the reason SQ flies direct to EWR over JFK is because of the fuel saving situation, and also slot restrictions at JFK?

EWR + SQ + UA = Star Alliance
UA and SQ are not the best of friends but they do connect

Overall, you're reacting like the average not-from-NYC passenger who focuses on airport names above all else. Some foreign airlines will admit, if you push them a little, they have flights to JFK solely because they're not in the business of educating passengers how an airport in New Jersey might be a better option (half of the European Star carriers for example).
 
catiii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:23 pm

UAUA wrote:
Heard that EWR is now busier than JFK

A lot of people dislike JFK and prefer EWR. Why?


It's geography. We live on the west side and while I work in Long Island City, my wife works downtown. If you're west of 5th/6th, it's easier to get to EWR than it is to JFK or LGA. In addition, the NJT connectivity from Penn Station is a bonus.

In fairness you can also take LIRR to Jamaica and get the Airtrain at JFK. I find the EWR connection to be more pleasant.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:28 pm

UAUA wrote:
Heard that EWR is now busier than JFK

A lot of people dislike JFK and prefer EWR. Why?


Define 'busy.' EWR can't touch JFK for total passenger numbers. https://old.panynj.gov/airports/general ... ation.html
 
codc10
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:43 pm

By the end of 2019, UA was operating 5x EWR-LHR flights with 167-seat 763ERs (76L), which is a significant downgauge in overall capacity from 767-400ERs (242), 777-200ERs (276) and even 757-200s (169) it flew EWR-LHR in 2012. For LHR, the name of the game is premium cabins, and prior to the COVID meltdown, UA had more premium seats in the market than before.

BA and VS were still operating larger capacity aircraft (777/A346 and even some 747) versus 777s, 787s and A330s flown today... and now it appears VS has exited the market entirely.

It would be disingenuous to call it a "niche" market, though, as with ~1m pax annually, both directions, it probably falls in the top 20 TATL airport pairs.
Last edited by codc10 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
digitalcloud
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:48 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.


Sorry, but this is nonsense. EWR is one of the world's largest Star Alliance hubs thanks to United and for Star Alliance carriers the opportunity for onward connections is far more important.
 
hpff
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:48 pm

codc10 wrote:
BA and VS were still operating larger capacity aircraft (777/A346 and even some 747) versus 777s, 787s and A330s flown today... and now it appears VS has exited the market entirely.


Which again isn't all that surprising that VS is out of EWR, considering VS is closely tied with DL, which is JFK-focused.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:50 pm

codc10 wrote:
By the end of 2019, UA was operating 5x EWR-LHR flights with 167-seat 763ERs (76L), which is a significant downgauge in overall capacity from 767-400ERs (242), 777-200ERs (276) and even 757-200s (169) it flew EWR-LHR in 2012. For LHR, the name of the game is premium cabins, and prior to the COVID meltdown, UA had more premium seats in the market than before.

BA and VS were still operating larger capacity aircraft (777/A346 and even some 747) versus 777s, 787s and A330s flown today... and now it appears VS has exited the market entirely.

It would be disingenuous to call it a "niche" market, though, as with ~1m pax annually, both directions, it probably falls in the top 20 TATL airport pairs.


But with EWR growing immensely intl. wise since 2012 why does LHR continue to shrink?
 
CALMSP
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:55 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
codc10 wrote:
By the end of 2019, UA was operating 5x EWR-LHR flights with 167-seat 763ERs (76L), which is a significant downgauge in overall capacity from 767-400ERs (242), 777-200ERs (276) and even 757-200s (169) it flew EWR-LHR in 2012. For LHR, the name of the game is premium cabins, and prior to the COVID meltdown, UA had more premium seats in the market than before.

BA and VS were still operating larger capacity aircraft (777/A346 and even some 747) versus 777s, 787s and A330s flown today... and now it appears VS has exited the market entirely.

It would be disingenuous to call it a "niche" market, though, as with ~1m pax annually, both directions, it probably falls in the top 20 TATL airport pairs.


But with EWR growing immensely intl. wise since 2012 why does LHR continue to shrink?


shrink? as in pax count? UA is focused on high yield NYC-LON traffic. Connecting pax and those looking to be tourists in London can be flown through LAX/IAH/SFO/DEN/ORD/IAD.
 
fromheretohere9
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:55 pm

Clackers wrote:
There is simply no comparison between EWR and JFK.

The only reason airlines fly to EWR is because it is cheaper than the main NYC airport. And then those airlines can BOAST that they fly to NYC.

I have always seen EWR as the NYC version of London Stansted - i.e. not to be taken seriously by any serious airline. Would Singapore Airlines fly to STN? Hell no!


Funny as SIngapore Airlines have been rumoured to be looking into flights at Stansted. This has been going around Stansted for quite some time and Singapore Airlines representatives have been shown around to.
 
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OA412
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Re: EWR - LHR - Becoming a niche market?

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:00 pm

Thread went off topic
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