SXDFC
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KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 pm

Hello All:

After browsing the KLM 747 thread, I happened to stumble across many pictures of the KLM A310. Tried to poke around, however I'd like to know what routes they flew them on, and if there are any cabin pictures out there. It seems like from the tiny bits I found, the A310s flew on many of the same routes as the current day A330s.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:37 pm

KLM's A310s were of the -200 version. They were largely used around Europe's trunk routes around AMS. They were replaced with B767s, which in turned got replaced with A332s.

https://youtu.be/LHTyp-9sPB4
 
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foxecho
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:45 pm

awesome, I flew on that very A310 at Fedex back in the late 90s between Memphis and NY!

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI/SYR/ABQ/
..uh, we'll need that to live......
 
Qantas59
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:49 pm

I recall that KL flew the A310s from mid 1983 until late 1996. Does anyone have more specific dates?
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
N415XJ
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:10 pm

They were on the AMS-DAM (Damascus) route in April 1996- I had a 'junior pilot logbook' filled out when I flew the route when I was very young. They were replaced on the route by 767s, which were later replaced by 737-900s in either 1999 or 2000 before the route was cancelled in 2006. I'm pretty sure the A310s were preceded by DC-8s on the route.

I'm not sure if the A310s were on other Middle East routes at that time (AMM, BEY, TLV, etc). I know that in the very late 90s when the Damascus route was operated by the 767 there was a stop in AMM in the leg from AMS (AMS-AMM-DAM-AMS). Not sure if that stop was in place during the A310's time- whoever filled out my logbook didn't make a note of the stop.
 
hooverman
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:17 pm

I flew on the A310 to DMM (Dammam) in Saudi Arabia.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 pm

From what I remember KLM used the A310's on the "heavy" European routes and routes to the Middle East. I remember reading in an old Air International magazine that it caught analysts by surprise at the time. KLM had been mostly a Douglas customer, operating every version of the DC series, until ordering the A310's.

But as stated, they were the -200 type without the longer range, so they were traded in for 767's (which were the Trans Atlantic workhorses of the 90's), before KLM decided to order Airbus again in the form of the A332's.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:31 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
From what I remember KLM used the A310's on the "heavy" European routes and routes to the Middle East. I remember reading in an old Air International magazine that it caught analysts by surprise at the time. KLM had been mostly a Douglas customer, operating every version of the DC series, until ordering the A310's.


That's because Long Beach had nothing to offer on that segment. You could chose only between the DC-10 and the MD-80, nothing in-betweeen.
 
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OA412
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:36 pm

As others mentioned, it was flown on a lot of heavy European routes. I know they operated to ATH and IST. At one point, they were routed AMS-ATH-IST-ATH-AMS. I saw one at ATH in September 1990.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
cedarjet
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:42 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
From what I remember KLM used the A310's on the "heavy" European routes and routes to the Middle East. I remember reading in an old Air International magazine that it caught analysts by surprise at the time. KLM had been mostly a Douglas customer, operating every version of the DC series, until ordering the A310's.

Agree with SpaceshipDC10, I’m not sure what Douglas craft Air International thought KLM could procure for that market segment. A310 was a great little plane, first widebody for many small or developing nations eg Kenya Airways, Cyprus Airways, Air Algérie, Sudan Airways, Air Niugini, Somali Airlines, Air Malta etc.

PS last Air Transat A310 has been brought forward, MAN YYZ March 31. Sad day.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
SXDFC
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Hate to hijack my own thread, however when did KLM start becoming a major Boeing customer? I believe Douglas pitched them the MD80 back in the 80s right?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:14 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Hate to hijack my own thread, however when did KLM start becoming a major Boeing customer? I believe Douglas pitched them the MD80 back in the 80s right?


From 1971, they received the 747s, sometimes during the second half of the '80s arrived their first 737-300s to replace the DC-9s, then the 767s, 777s and now 787s.
 
kaitak
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:22 pm

Always thought the A310 looked great in KLM colours and I'm sure it was a popular aircraft with passengers; it also did a daily service to LHR. I don't have any KLM timetables of that era to hand, but as discussed above, it was routes to the Middle East and also West Africa, presumably CAI and TLV as well.

As to KLM and Boeing, it did indeed start with the 747, then with the 737 and then, the 767 (to replace the A310s) and now, apart from the A330s, KLM is an all-Boeing carrier.
 
HUYfan
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:20 pm

hooverman wrote:
I flew on the A310 to DMM (Dammam) in Saudi Arabia.


Dhahran :))

Kind regards

HUYfan
 
Bhoy
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:04 am

According to departedflights.com, In the week beginning Jan 15, 1989, KLM's 310 fleet was scheduled to arrive at Schiphol as follows (nb flights from some destinations have both odd and even flight numbers, so some may be triangular flights that didn't have the enroute stop on the outbound leg):

KL543 Abu Dhabi-Doha-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL518 Amman-Istanbul-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL510 Ankara-Istanbul-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL501 Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL502 Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL548 Bahrain-Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL352 Barcelona-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL558 Cairo-Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL554 Cairo-Istanbul-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL554 Cairo-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL560 Cairo-Izmir-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL572 Casablanca-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL598 Casablanca-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL577 Conakry-Monrovia-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL174 Copenhagen-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL178 Copenhagen-Amsterdam (4 a week)
KL532 Damascus-Larnaca-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL546 Doha-Kuwait-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL580 Monrovia-Freetown-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL320 Geneva-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL506 Istanbul-Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL566 Khartoum-Jeddah-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL562 Khartoum-Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL516 Larnaca-Athens-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL368 Lisbon-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL369 Lisbon-Oporto-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL116 London Heathrow-Amsterdam (daily)
KL118 London Heathrow-Amsterdam (daily)
KL122 London Heathrow-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL124 London Heathrow-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL126 London Heathrow-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL364 Madrid-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL366 Malaga-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL342 Milan Linate-Amsterdam (6 a week)
KL364 Milan Linate-Amsterdam (daily)
KL232 Munich-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL234 Munich-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL359 Oporto-Lisbon-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL324 Paris de Gaulle-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL326 Paris de Gaulle-Amsterdam (5 a week)
KL328 Paris de Gaulle-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL330 Paris de Gaulle-Amsterdam (3 a week)
KL194 Stockholm-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL526 Tel Aviv-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL522 Tel Aviv-Amsterdam (2 a week)
KL574 Tripoli-Amsterdam (1 a week)
KL312 Zurich-Amsterdam (1 a week)

Most destinations only saw the 310 a handful of times a week - only Heathow, CDG, Linate, Cairo and Athens saw a service every day of the week, with the latter mostly as an intermediate stop.
Most of the other European destinations were served daily by the same flight number, although on other days it was scheduled for a different type (737 or DC-9). Abu Dhabi was the only longhaul destination to be scheduled for a different type as well as the 310, with a weekly 747 service.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:40 am

Here's another video with KL A310 ops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKEX262h8jE

Tying into that, what in the world happened with that Thai 744?
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
SheddingVortex
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:39 am

Pretty sure that KLM A310s flew AMS-YHZ-YOW and back, probably for a season. That route started with the 747, then A310, then was flown under wet lease by Martinair's A310 and ultimately 767.
 
Max Q
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:53 am

[*]
DeltaRules wrote:
Here's another video with KL A310 ops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKEX262h8jE

Tying into that, what in the world happened with that Thai 744?



Good question


Looked a lot like a number 3 pod strike
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
kevertje
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:48 am

kaitak wrote:
As to KLM and Boeing, it did indeed start with the 747, then with the 737 and then, the 767 (to replace the A310s) and now, apart from the A330s, KLM is an all-Boeing carrier.


Don't forget the Embraer 175 (17) and 190's (32) which are used for the shorthaul network
 
Qantas744er
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:30 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Here's another video with KL A310 ops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKEX262h8jE

Tying into that, what in the world happened with that Thai 744?


Great video, thank you for sharing!

Max Q wrote:
[*]
DeltaRules wrote:
Here's another video with KL A310 ops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKEX262h8jE

Tying into that, what in the world happened with that Thai 744?


Good question

Looked a lot like a number 3 pod strike


Stiff crosswind and to forgetting to “fly” the aircraft after touchdown.

B743/B744s landing with Flaps 30 and full reverse at AMS is music to my ears (and history).
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
hooverman
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:36 am

HUYfan wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I flew on the A310 to DMM (Dammam) in Saudi Arabia.


Dhahran :))

Kind regards

HUYfan


Dhahran is a different city.
 
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747classic
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:11 am

Selecting the A310 was a (part) political decission, not based on specifications, it was not KLM's first choice.
Especially KLM /TD was at that point in time entirely based on Douglas/ Boeing procedures/support and was not very happy with this aircraft type.
The relative early retirement was caused by the, compared to US OEM's, poor Airbus maintenance support and non-avialability and /or excessive spare part prices.
Remember : the whole Airbus maintenance support system had to be built from zero.
Selling aircraft is easy (with political support and a sales team with a very nice PR department), but good maintenance support is on the long run more important.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
gkirk
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:49 am

The A310s turned up occasionally at NCL, GLA and MAN also
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Lufthansa
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:02 am

LHR was their big Euro destination, but ppl forget a few things.
They also had the DC-10s for higher traffic/longer ranges as
well. Plus there were no LCC, and no high speed trains to
Paris and London as well. looked smart though.
 
factsonly
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:10 am

747classic wrote:
Selecting the A310 was a (part) political decission, not based on specifications, it was not KLM's first choice.
Especially KLM /TD was at that point in time entirely based on Douglas/ Boeing procedures/support and was not very happy with this aircraft type.
The relative early retirement was caused by the, compared to US OEM's, poor Airbus maintenance support and non-avialability and /or excessive spare part prices.
Remember : the whole Airbus maintenance support system had to be built from zero.
Selling aircraft is easy (with political support and a sales team with a very nice PR department), but good maintenance support is on the long run more important.


In the 1980's, KLM selected the A310-200 over the B767-300 for its cargo capability, which was superior over the B763 as the A310 accepted standard LD3 containers.
While at that time airline network thinking was still focused on providing greater short-haul capacity, rather than greater frequencies.

It is somewhat ironic that 10 years later KLM decided to switch over to the B763, after the A310-200 proved more expensive to operate and less capable overall (insufficient TATL range).
Had KLM selected the more capable A310-300 (as LH and SR did), KLM might well have kept its A310's somewhat longer.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:17 am

SheddingVortex wrote:
Pretty sure that KLM A310s flew AMS-YHZ-YOW and back, probably for a season. That route started with the 747, then A310, then was flown under wet lease by Martinair's A310 and ultimately 767.

That route was mainly for DOD, F16 pilots used to train low level flying in Canada and KLM used the A 310 to fly support staff back and forth.
Flying blue only if possible
 
BRUfly
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:32 am

Ahh the good old A310... flew them a couple of times with TAP Air Portugal to northeast Brazil in the early 2000's. :)
 
Max Q
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am

factsonly wrote:
747classic wrote:
Selecting the A310 was a (part) political decission, not based on specifications, it was not KLM's first choice.
Especially KLM /TD was at that point in time entirely based on Douglas/ Boeing procedures/support and was not very happy with this aircraft type.
The relative early retirement was caused by the, compared to US OEM's, poor Airbus maintenance support and non-avialability and /or excessive spare part prices.
Remember : the whole Airbus maintenance support system had to be built from zero.
Selling aircraft is easy (with political support and a sales team with a very nice PR department), but good maintenance support is on the long run more important.


In the 1980's, KLM selected the A310-200 over the B767-300 for its cargo capability, which was superior over the B763 as the A310 accepted standard LD3 containers.
While at that time airline network thinking was still focused on providing greater short-haul capacity, rather than greater frequencies.

It is somewhat ironic that 10 years later KLM decided to switch over to the B763, after the A310-200 proved more expensive to operate and less capable overall (insufficient TATL range).
Had KLM selected the more capable A310-300 (as LH and SR did), KLM might well have kept its A310's somewhat longer.




LD3 capability aside the 767-300ER was and is still more capable in payload / range than even the A310-300
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
LJ
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:56 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
KLM's A310s were of the -200 version. They were largely used around Europe's trunk routes around AMS. They were replaced with B767s, which in turned got replaced with A332s.


The A310 was replaced by the 737 on European flights. The primary reason was the introduction of the "Blokkensysteem" (introduced in 1992/3, increased in 1997), which increased the number of connecting waves. Prior to introduction you would see a frequency of 2/3 daily to major European cities. LHR was "just" around 6/7 daily and Paris did get around 5 daily. The increase in frequency made the A310 too big for almost all European destinations. Also note that the competition was not that big and airports like LCY (which took a large part of the corporate travellers away from LHR) weren't built.

Article in Dutch on "Blokkensysteem" (couldn't find articles in English)
https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/passagiersvervoer-van-klm-groeit-door-extra-spitsuren-in-recordtempo~ba4fbf96/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
https://www.utoday.nl/news/42847/nieuwe_dienstregeling_klm_veel_efficinter
 
Bhoy
Posts: 479
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:24 am

Max Q wrote:
factsonly wrote:
747classic wrote:
Selecting the A310 was a (part) political decission, not based on specifications, it was not KLM's first choice.
Especially KLM /TD was at that point in time entirely based on Douglas/ Boeing procedures/support and was not very happy with this aircraft type.
The relative early retirement was caused by the, compared to US OEM's, poor Airbus maintenance support and non-avialability and /or excessive spare part prices.
Remember : the whole Airbus maintenance support system had to be built from zero.
Selling aircraft is easy (with political support and a sales team with a very nice PR department), but good maintenance support is on the long run more important.


In the 1980's, KLM selected the A310-200 over the B767-300 for its cargo capability, which was superior over the B763 as the A310 accepted standard LD3 containers.
While at that time airline network thinking was still focused on providing greater short-haul capacity, rather than greater frequencies.

It is somewhat ironic that 10 years later KLM decided to switch over to the B763, after the A310-200 proved more expensive to operate and less capable overall (insufficient TATL range).
Had KLM selected the more capable A310-300 (as LH and SR did), KLM might well have kept its A310's somewhat longer.




LD3 capability aside the 767-300ER was and is still more capable in payload / range than even the A310-300

KLM ordered the A310 in April 1979 (their first delivery in April 1983 was PH-AGA), the baseline 767-300 wasn’t announced by Boeing until 1983, whilst the 767-300ER was announced in 1984. So at the time of the order, the 767 wasn’t a serious competitor as only the 767-200 was an option (not even the 767-200ER which was not announced until 1982)
Last edited by Bhoy on Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
columba
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:31 am

I flew with KLM from TXL-AMS-LIS in the early 90s. AMS-LIS was operated by the A310-200
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Max Q
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:32 am

Bhoy wrote:
Max Q wrote:
factsonly wrote:

In the 1980's, KLM selected the A310-200 over the B767-300 for its cargo capability, which was superior over the B763 as the A310 accepted standard LD3 containers.
While at that time airline network thinking was still focused on providing greater short-haul capacity, rather than greater frequencies.

It is somewhat ironic that 10 years later KLM decided to switch over to the B763, after the A310-200 proved more expensive to operate and less capable overall (insufficient TATL range).
Had KLM selected the more capable A310-300 (as LH and SR did), KLM might well have kept its A310's somewhat longer.




LD3 capability aside the 767-300ER was and is still more capable in payload / range than even the A310-300

KLM ordered the A310 in April 1979 (their first delivery in April 1983 was PH-AGA), the baseline 767-300 wasn’t announced by Boeing until 1983, the 767-300ER was announced in 1984. So at the time of the order, the 767 wasn’t a serious competitor as only the 767-200 was an option (not even the 767-200ER which was not announced until 1982)



That all sounds right, point is the 763ER ended up being a far better performer
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:34 am

Max Q wrote:
LD3 capability aside the 767-300ER was and is still more capable in payload / range than even the A310-300


Indeed, that's why they finally ordered it.

LJ wrote:
The A310 was replaced by the 737 on European flights. The primary reason was the introduction of the "Blokkensysteem" (introduced in 1992/3, increased in 1997), which increased the number of connecting waves. Prior to introduction you would see a frequency of 2/3 daily to major European cities. LHR was "just" around 6/7 daily and Paris did get around 5 daily. The increase in frequency made the A310 too big for almost all European destinations. Also note that the competition was not that big and airports like LCY (which took a large part of the corporate travellers away from LHR) weren't built.

Article in Dutch on "Blokkensysteem" (couldn't find articles in English)
https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/passagiersvervoer-van-klm-groeit-door-extra-spitsuren-in-recordtempo~ba4fbf96/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
https://www.utoday.nl/news/42847/nieuwe_dienstregeling_klm_veel_efficinter


True.
 
HUYfan
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:54 am

hooverman wrote:
HUYfan wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I flew on the A310 to DMM (Dammam) in Saudi Arabia.


Dhahran :))

Kind regards

HUYfan


Dhahran is a different city.


Absolutely! By the time Dammam DMM opened, KLM had started using their 767s. KLM’s A310s were only ever flown to Dhahran DHA.

Kind regards

HUYfan
 
simairlinenet
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:30 am

Qantas59 wrote:
I recall that KL flew the A310s from mid 1983 until late 1996. Does anyone have more specific dates?

April 1983-July 1997, based on research I did years ago.
 
qm001
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:49 am

KLM actually operated the A310's to ALOT of African destinations, EBB, ACC, LLW come to mind. I'd be curious to see what kind of routings these did from AMS, and the config, if anyone can share...
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
Bhoy
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:09 pm

qm001 wrote:
KLM actually operated the A310's to ALOT of African destinations, EBB, ACC, LLW come to mind. I'd be curious to see what kind of routings these did from AMS, and the config, if anyone can share...

Seat map from 1996: http://www.departedflights.com/KL3101096.html

There’s two configurations, 1 has C 2-2-2, the other has C 2-3-2. It doesn’t say what the difference is, but presumably the 2-3-2 was for short haul, and the 2-2-2 for long haul. The Y cabins are effectively the same in both configs, with just a misplaced seat in the first row behind the Bulkhead/Curtain.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm

LJ wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
KLM's A310s were of the -200 version. They were largely used around Europe's trunk routes around AMS. They were replaced with B767s, which in turned got replaced with A332s.


The A310 was replaced by the 737 on European flights. The primary reason was the introduction of the "Blokkensysteem" (introduced in 1992/3, increased in 1997), which increased the number of connecting waves. Prior to introduction you would see a frequency of 2/3 daily to major European cities. LHR was "just" around 6/7 daily and Paris did get around 5 daily. The increase in frequency made the A310 too big for almost all European destinations. Also note that the competition was not that big and airports like LCY (which took a large part of the corporate travellers away from LHR) weren't built.

Article in Dutch on "Blokkensysteem" (couldn't find articles in English)
https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/passagiersvervoer-van-klm-groeit-door-extra-spitsuren-in-recordtempo~ba4fbf96/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
https://www.utoday.nl/news/42847/nieuwe_dienstregeling_klm_veel_efficinter


Is this 'blokkensysteem' the reason KLM operates less 'sexy' flight numbers (mostly above KL1000) on (european) routes? Why doesn't KLM have 'sexy' flight numbers as KL1 or KL49 like airlines like BA/LH/QF and even AF have?
Air France is French AF
 
LJ
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:50 pm

qm001 wrote:
KLM actually operated the A310's to ALOT of African destinations, EBB, ACC, LLW come to mind. I'd be curious to see what kind of routings these did from AMS, and the config, if anyone can share...


AFAIK LLW and ACC were never A310. LLW was a DC-10 flying AMS-DAR-LLW (I've to look at my old KLM timetables as I don't know for sure if JRO was in the routing as well). The plane departed just before midnight. ACC were DC-10s (before the 767) as far as I know.
 
clipperlondon
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:00 pm

kaitak wrote:
Always thought the A310 looked great in KLM colours and I'm sure it was a popular aircraft with passengers; it also did a daily service to LHR. I don't have any KLM timetables of that era to hand, but as discussed above, it was routes to the Middle East and also West Africa, presumably CAI and TLV as well.

As to KLM and Boeing, it did indeed start with the 747, then with the 737 and then, the 767 (to replace the A310s) and now, apart from the A330s, KLM is an all-Boeing carrier.


It certainly did do an LHR-AMS service. I vivdly remember flying the service in the mid- 1980s. We took off rom the now defunct diagonal runway in the NE direction (23?) and the cockpit door opened. The pilots left it open and I could see in and chat to them, and studied the controls! (pre 9/11 obviously). Great fun!

Incidentally, the only other time I took off on that runway was on a BEA Trident service, again to AMS. Miss that view of the gasometer at Southall! lol
 
LJ
Posts: 5052
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:06 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Is this 'blokkensysteem' the reason KLM operates less 'sexy' flight numbers (mostly above KL1000) on (european) routes? Why doesn't KLM have 'sexy' flight numbers as KL1 or KL49 like airlines like BA/LH/QF and even AF have?


I don't know the exact reason (and have to look in my old KLM timetables to be sure), but before the "Blokkensysteem" the first flight to London was KL101 and all had 3 digits. I think you're correct that KLM moved to 4 digits for European flights as with the Blokkensysteem. However, I don't know if that was already in 1993 or in 1996 when they moved to 6 waves.


Here a link to KLMs network as of Winter 1992
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/86260/199293-klm-network/

Here a link to KLMs network as of Summer 1998 (unfortunately the pages with the aircraft are misisng)
http://airlinetimetables.blogspot.com/2018/01/klm-march-1998.html
 
Bhoy
Posts: 479
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Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:38 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
LJ wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
KLM's A310s were of the -200 version. They were largely used around Europe's trunk routes around AMS. They were replaced with B767s, which in turned got replaced with A332s.


The A310 was replaced by the 737 on European flights. The primary reason was the introduction of the "Blokkensysteem" (introduced in 1992/3, increased in 1997), which increased the number of connecting waves. Prior to introduction you would see a frequency of 2/3 daily to major European cities. LHR was "just" around 6/7 daily and Paris did get around 5 daily. The increase in frequency made the A310 too big for almost all European destinations. Also note that the competition was not that big and airports like LCY (which took a large part of the corporate travellers away from LHR) weren't built.

Article in Dutch on "Blokkensysteem" (couldn't find articles in English)
https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/passagiersvervoer-van-klm-groeit-door-extra-spitsuren-in-recordtempo~ba4fbf96/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
https://www.utoday.nl/news/42847/nieuwe_dienstregeling_klm_veel_efficinter


Is this 'blokkensysteem' the reason KLM operates less 'sexy' flight numbers (mostly above KL1000) on (european) routes? Why doesn't KLM have 'sexy' flight numbers as KL1 or KL49 like airlines like BA/LH/QF and even AF have?

Could it be that a lot of the shorter European Routes then were operated by subsidiary NLM, under their own HN flight numbers, before NLM merged with Netherlines (and subsequently KLMuk - the former AirUK) to create Cityhopper in 1991? Thus those routes wouldn't have had KL flight numbers until around the time of the Blokkensysteem, anyway.
 
sgbroimp
Posts: 212
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:35 pm

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:46 pm

LH ran a 310 as I recall when it initiated its second daily JFK-FRA service as LH 404/405. Flew it quite a bit. I want to say mid 80's or early 90's. No issues on JFK-FRA, but the return FRA-JFK was tight due to range/fuel issues and some folks got a "free" stop in Bangor to tank up.The arrival of the 340 on the route took care of the issue of course.
 
PresRDC
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:00 am

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:02 pm

LH also operated a one-time involuntary A310 flight to JFK on February 11, 1993.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_592
 
LJ
Posts: 5052
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:16 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Could it be that a lot of the shorter European Routes then were operated by subsidiary NLM, under their own HN flight numbers, before NLM merged with Netherlines (and subsequently KLMuk - the former AirUK) to create Cityhopper in 1991? Thus those routes wouldn't have had KL flight numbers until around the time of the Blokkensysteem, anyway.


The NLM flights did operate under HN flight number (and KLC continued flying one flight a week for many years after KLC was founden) as did Netherlines. KLMuk came much later into the equasion (1998). However, you wouldn't see NLM flights to desinations like CPH or MUC. The "Blokkensysteem" increased the number of RPKs by 20% between 1993 and 1994 and increased production of 10%.
 
qm001
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:53 am

LJ wrote:
qm001 wrote:
AFAIK LLW and ACC were never A310. LLW was a DC-10 flying AMS-DAR-LLW (I've to look at my old KLM timetables as I don't know for sure if JRO was in the routing as well). The plane departed just before midnight. ACC were DC-10s (before the 767) as far as I know.



They definitely were both A310's at one point or another, having seen them there myself. Clearly it didn't last, since it went back to DC10, then MD11 on both ACC and LLW. They even advertised the busses in Malawi, see attached.

https://www.facebook.com/16453208123572 ... gG9KM3aL0Z
Last edited by qm001 on Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
KFTG
Posts: 482
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:58 am

PresRDC wrote:
LH also operated a one-time involuntary A310 flight to JFK on February 11, 1993.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_592

LH flew the A310s to North America regularly (JFK/EWR).
 
qm001
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:25 am

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:01 pm

Can't get this uploaded for some reason....
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
superjeff
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: KLM A310 Questions

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:07 pm

Bhoy wrote:
qm001 wrote:
KLM actually operated the A310's to ALOT of African destinations, EBB, ACC, LLW come to mind. I'd be curious to see what kind of routings these did from AMS, and the config, if anyone can share...

Seat map from 1996: http://www.departedflights.com/KL3101096.html

There’s two configurations, 1 has C 2-2-2, the other has C 2-3-2. It doesn’t say what the difference is, but presumably the 2-3-2 was for short haul, and the 2-2-2 for long haul. The Y cabins are effectively the same in both configs, with just a misplaced seat in the first row behind the Bulkhead/Curtain.



I flew AMS-LHR in the late 1990's in C Class. Seating was 2-3-2 in Business Class; the normal 2-4-2 in Economy. Obviously a very short flight (block time was about an hour; in flight about 45 minutes) but it was very comfortable with excellent catering on such a short trip.

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