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VirginFlyer
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:49 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Interesting that the two airlines that operate both the A380 and the 748i (LH and KE) announced that they are parking their A380 but I have not heard anything about their.748s. Are they still flying or not?

I did a quick analysis yesterday in another thread. Korean did actually announce they were parking both the A380 and 747-8.

VirginFlyer wrote:
Without wanting to run too far off topic, here's what FR24 has:

Air China

Korean Air

Lufthansa


Please note this is about 18 hours old so there may be a few minor changes, but hopefully gives you an idea of the current lay of the land.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:00 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Blerg wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

T5 can handle the A380, as BA flew it to ORD for a while. EK did, too, but that may have been a one-off (don’t recall if they put it in the regular schedule).


I suppose T1 can't handle them? That's where LH departs from back to Europe.


I would imagine not. I’m guessing the expansion plans that would have brought FIS capability to the other terminals along with rebuilding/adding gates would have accommodated them, but now...who knows?

I shudder to think how much was spent upgrading facilities to handle these beasts. Multi-level gates, expanded taxiways, etc. Will that investment ever see another day of payback?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:17 pm

calstanford wrote:
Most airlines and most routes will come back with suppressed demand, at least for a while. It's reasonable to think the A380 won't be back AF and LH

Air France definitely. But the A380 was practically made for Lufthansa. Their entire business model is a hub and spoke airline.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:21 pm

Revelation wrote:
A340 makes for an interesting discussion, surprised no one has raised it.

Wiki's LH fleet page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa#Current_fleet ) says LH has 17 A343 and 17 A346, to be replaced by A359 and B789.

On one hand, it'd seem it'd be an interesting fleet to cut, given the four bespoke engines on each plane, trailing edge fuel economy, and a good degree of overlap with the very efficient A359.

On the other hand, if conserving cash is king and oil is cheap, we could see LH ask for and receive deferrals on A359 and B789 and keep some A340s longer than planned since they're paid for and they are the smallest wide bodies LH has at hand.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.


Honestly, I'd expect most airlines to do a bit of both. Retire a good chunk of A340s but not all and defer some of the new deliveries. Then again, for Lufthansa the 787s aren't due until 2022, while the A350 deliveries are already stretched out to 2027. I am more worried about the 777-9, they definitely won't need to take a bunch of those expensive birds this year (even if they sorely need the new business class product they are launching on that type).
 
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calstanford
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:34 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
calstanford wrote:
Most airlines and most routes will come back with suppressed demand, at least for a while. It's reasonable to think the A380 won't be back AF and LH

Air France definitely. But the A380 was practically made for Lufthansa. Their entire business model is a hub and spoke airline.


That's a bit far fetched considering they only had 14 of them and are scheduled to return six to Airbus in 2022.
 
Scotron12
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:50 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A340 makes for an interesting discussion, surprised no one has raised it.

Wiki's LH fleet page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa#Current_fleet ) says LH has 17 A343 and 17 A346, to be replaced by A359 and B789.

On one hand, it'd seem it'd be an interesting fleet to cut, given the four bespoke engines on each plane, trailing edge fuel economy, and a good degree of overlap with the very efficient A359.

On the other hand, if conserving cash is king and oil is cheap, we could see LH ask for and receive deferrals on A359 and B789 and keep some A340s longer than planned since they're paid for and they are the smallest wide bodies LH has at hand.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.


Honestly, I'd expect most airlines to do a bit of both. Retire a good chunk of A340s but not all and defer some of the new deliveries. Then again, for Lufthansa the 787s aren't due until 2022, while the A350 deliveries are already stretched out to 2027. I am more worried about the 777-9, they definitely won't need to take a bunch of those expensive birds this year (even if they sorely need the new business class product they are launching on that type).


I don't think they are wedded to the B779 as some. They already scaled back their original order from 34 to 20. They are supposed to take delivery of their 1st in 2021...dependant on the B779 being certified and traffic getting back to normal.
 
Eagleboy
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:04 pm

m66 wrote:
It took the airline industry 2 years to come back after 2008 - this is something way worse. It will affect demand and economy much more. And future travel restriction (because of a still active thread of the virus in certain parts of the world) will last for months, at least.

The current situation is a lot worse.......but the global economy isnt damaged as it was in 2008. The global economy is "being put to sleep" for a few months in order to preserve life. Lets say in 6 month times when/if the major outbreaks in Asia/Europe/Americas are under control (not ended, just under control) the global economy can restart.
 
aw70
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:10 pm

The most bizarre outcome of LH shedding a few A380 would be if they pushed some of the excess / leftover frames on OS. "You said you wanted some new(er) long haul frames, right?"

This would actually not necessarily be a completely lunatic thing to do, if they reduce frequency on some routes from VIE. And instead of some arthritic 767 on a hectic schedule, only occasionally send a big bus to faraway places.

The crazy thing is, that could actually (borderline) work: VIE is something of a minor long haul hub for the region, and not everyone from there wants to first fly to MUC or FRA before going places. And an A380 is definitely a lot more comfortable (and hence attractive for passengers) than the old crates OS is keeping alive right now. With reduced frequencies, they might be able to keep a small number of them busy - and busy full a/c have a right to exist. MX would be handled by LH, ground handling kit would come from there as well, so it would probably not even require a huge investment by OS. Plus VIE can handle A380 all right.

Not that this will happen, of course. OS will likely be reduced to regional only after the crisis, and that is it. Still. While oil is cheap, some red-white whales would be a sight to behold. :)
 
VSMUT
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:13 pm

Eagleboy wrote:
m66 wrote:
It took the airline industry 2 years to come back after 2008 - this is something way worse. It will affect demand and economy much more. And future travel restriction (because of a still active thread of the virus in certain parts of the world) will last for months, at least.

The current situation is a lot worse.......but the global economy isnt damaged as it was in 2008. The global economy is "being put to sleep" for a few months in order to preserve life. Lets say in 6 month times when/if the major outbreaks in Asia/Europe/Americas are under control (not ended, just under control) the global economy can restart.


The IMF said 3 days ago that the recession from the Corona crisis is already worse than the recession of 2008, so yes, the global economy certainly is as damaged as in 2008.
 
Prost
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:25 pm

Without clarity on how things are going to play out with the pandemic I can’t picture management making fleet decisions yet other than ‘park excess capacity’ and ‘delay every damned thing we can’.
 
Opus99
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:26 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
A340 makes for an interesting discussion, surprised no one has raised it.

Wiki's LH fleet page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa#Current_fleet ) says LH has 17 A343 and 17 A346, to be replaced by A359 and B789.

On one hand, it'd seem it'd be an interesting fleet to cut, given the four bespoke engines on each plane, trailing edge fuel economy, and a good degree of overlap with the very efficient A359.

On the other hand, if conserving cash is king and oil is cheap, we could see LH ask for and receive deferrals on A359 and B789 and keep some A340s longer than planned since they're paid for and they are the smallest wide bodies LH has at hand.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.


Honestly, I'd expect most airlines to do a bit of both. Retire a good chunk of A340s but not all and defer some of the new deliveries. Then again, for Lufthansa the 787s aren't due until 2022, while the A350 deliveries are already stretched out to 2027. I am more worried about the 777-9, they definitely won't need to take a bunch of those expensive birds this year (even if they sorely need the new business class product they are launching on that type).


I don't think they are wedded to the B779 as some. They already scaled back their original order from 34 to 20. They are supposed to take delivery of their 1st in 2021...dependant on the B779 being certified and traffic getting back to normal.


to be fair they had never really firmed the 14, it was always 20 on firm order
 
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Eagleboy wrote:
m66 wrote:
It took the airline industry 2 years to come back after 2008 - this is something way worse. It will affect demand and economy much more. And future travel restriction (because of a still active thread of the virus in certain parts of the world) will last for months, at least.

The current situation is a lot worse.......but the global economy isnt damaged as it was in 2008. The global economy is "being put to sleep" for a few months in order to preserve life. Lets say in 6 month times when/if the major outbreaks in Asia/Europe/Americas are under control (not ended, just under control) the global economy can restart.


The IMF said 3 days ago that the recession from the Corona crisis is already worse than the recession of 2008, so yes, the global economy certainly is as damaged as in 2008.


Further, "putting the economy to sleep" is something humanity has never done before. It's not like an airline, which can simply park some planes in a controlled fashion and reactivate them 6 months or a year later when needed. There are far too many disparate moving parts in the economy to think that we can easily just get back to where we were by taking the covers off of some shuttered businesses and putting people back to where they were.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:17 pm

aw70 wrote:
The most bizarre outcome of LH shedding a few A380 would be if they pushed some of the excess / leftover frames on OS. "You said you wanted some new(er) long haul frames, right?"

This would actually not necessarily be a completely lunatic thing to do, if they reduce frequency on some routes from VIE. And instead of some arthritic 767 on a hectic schedule, only occasionally send a big bus to faraway places.

The crazy thing is, that could actually (borderline) work: VIE is something of a minor long haul hub for the region, and not everyone from there wants to first fly to MUC or FRA before going places. And an A380 is definitely a lot more comfortable (and hence attractive for passengers) than the old crates OS is keeping alive right now. With reduced frequencies, they might be able to keep a small number of them busy - and busy full a/c have a right to exist. MX would be handled by LH, ground handling kit would come from there as well, so it would probably not even require a huge investment by OS. Plus VIE can handle A380 all right.

Not that this will happen, of course. OS will likely be reduced to regional only after the crisis, and that is it. Still. While oil is cheap, some red-white whales would be a sight to behold. :)

They can keep them as busy as they want (assuming no virus): just offer flights for one euro and it will fill up in minutes if not seconds.

The problem comes when you want to make money.

Lifting that heavy frame with relatively inefficient engines and paying the mandatory crew, ATC and landing costs means you need to bring in a lot of money to break even.

Best case you would need a hub like EK's in DXB so you can generate enough volume to hope to fill the plane at good yield.

Other than that, it's not going to be viable. Lots of airlines have tried it, all have decided it was a bad idea.
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DUSdude
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:39 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That may be the saving grace for the A346 over the A380---the A380 is larger but has fewer LD3 positions (38; the A346 has 43). LH could actually consider reconfiguring the remaining A346s without first class as a B744 replacement and take any that are in storage but not parted out for the same reason, basically ending F from MUC.

The A343 needs to be replaced sooner...as does the long-haul fleet at OS, which has 767s pushing 30.


The A346 can't use all those LD3 positions without incurring a big weight penalty, especially if the pax cabin is actually full. That's why LH has crew rest and lavatories in the lower deck on their A346. That space isn't usable for practical purposes for cargo. The A343 has been a much more effective aircraft in the LH fleet. From a certain sector length onward it is a very efficient aircraft and being CFM56-powered engine maintenance is much, much cheaper.

Scotron12 wrote:
I don't think they are wedded to the B779 as some. They already scaled back their original order from 34 to 20. They are supposed to take delivery of their 1st in 2021...dependant on the B779 being certified and traffic getting back to normal.


Keep in mind also that production at Boeing is completely stopped at the moment due to Coronavirus. The 779 is already delayed, and with this it will be delayed even more, which I'm sure LH won't mind too much in the present circumstances.
 
DUSdude
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
They can keep them as busy as they want (assuming no virus): just offer flights for one euro and it will fill up in minutes if not seconds.

The problem comes when you want to make money.


That's nonsense. More than a third of the world's population is under strict shelter in place orders. They couldn't travel if they wanted to. A good chunk of the rest at this point wouldn't travel if you paid them for it for fear of infection. And where would you even go? Many destinations are effectively closed to non-residents and/or require mandatory 14-day quarantine. Not everything in human behavior fits on a simple supply/demand graph that you learned in first year macroeconomics.
Last edited by DUSdude on Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:52 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Eagleboy wrote:
The current situation is a lot worse.......but the global economy isnt damaged as it was in 2008. The global economy is "being put to sleep" for a few months in order to preserve life. Lets say in 6 month times when/if the major outbreaks in Asia/Europe/Americas are under control (not ended, just under control) the global economy can restart.


The IMF said 3 days ago that the recession from the Corona crisis is already worse than the recession of 2008, so yes, the global economy certainly is as damaged as in 2008.


Further, "putting the economy to sleep" is something humanity has never done before. It's not like an airline, which can simply park some planes in a controlled fashion and reactivate them 6 months or a year later when needed. There are far too many disparate moving parts in the economy to think that we can easily just get back to where we were by taking the covers off of some shuttered businesses and putting people back to where they were.

As a young person I am far more afraid of the fallout we will see from the response throughout this decade than from the virus itself
 
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Revelation
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:01 pm

DUSdude wrote:
[quote="Revelation]They can keep them as busy as they want (assuming no virus): just offer flights for one euro and it will fill up in minutes if not seconds.

The problem comes when you want to make money.
[/quote]
That's nonsense. More than a third of the world's population is under strict shelter in place orders. They couldn't travel if they wanted to. A good chunk of the rest at this point wouldn't travel if you paid them for it for fear of infection. Not everything in human behavior fits on a simple supply/demand graph that you learned in first year macroeconomics.[/quote]

I guess you missed the assuming no virus part?

Nothing personal, but try to do better both on the facts and on the posting style.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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fraT
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:06 pm

Blerg wrote:
But is it realistic to expect that LH will be willing to invest in a new long-haul product at OS right now? Even before the meltdown they insisted OS first become profitable yet they didn't mind adding short-haul aircraft to the fleet.

Maybe LH Group does not plan on maintaining long-haul flights out of VIE in the future. I mean all of North America can easily be served via Germany.

...or by the JV partners UA and AC.
 
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:08 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
As a young person I am far more afraid of the fallout we will see from the response throughout this decade than from the virus itself

I guess no one close to you has died, yet. Get back to us in a few months when we have a better accounting. And maintain physical distancing so it's not you who gets to go fight for your life for a few days in the hospital.

And as a not too young person, get used to it. Globalization will bring on all kinds of effects no one knows much about, same for instant world wide communication. Be prepared for more than this one shock to your system. Disruption may very well become the new norm. Believe it or not we've done a pretty good job keeping civilization intact over the last 75 years or so. Now it's your turn.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
DUSdude
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
DUSdude wrote:
[quote="Revelation]They can keep them as busy as they want (assuming no virus): just offer flights for one euro and it will fill up in minutes if not seconds.

The problem comes when you want to make money.
[/quote]
That's nonsense. More than a third of the world's population is under strict shelter in place orders. They couldn't travel if they wanted to. A good chunk of the rest at this point wouldn't travel if you paid them for it for fear of infection. Not everything in human behavior fits on a simple supply/demand graph that you learned in first year macroeconomics.[/quote][/quote]
I guess you missed the assuming no virus part?

Nothing personal, but try to do better both on the facts and on the posting style.[/quote]


Fair point. Sorry for jumping on you. But that still assumes that the economy just magically springs back to normal after this is over. And it assumes that once the virus is "over" in one place, it will also be "over" in any destinations you might want to fly to. This will linger for a while in various parts of the world, and people who have suffered financial or job losses won't be ready to travel for a while either, while many businesses will have discovered that much of their past business travel wasn't as essential as they used to think and will cut back on their business travel as well. Against that background it is reasonable to assume that airlines will shrink and will prune their fleets of larger and less efficient, less versatile types.

PS: Assumptions are exactly NOT facts but *assumptions*. ;-)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:27 pm

DUSdude wrote:
Fair point. Sorry for jumping on you. But that still assumes that the economy just magically springs back to normal after this is over. And it assumes that once the virus is "over" in one place, it will also be "over" in any destinations you might want to fly to. This will linger for a while in various parts of the world, and people who have suffered financial or job losses won't be ready to travel for a while either, while many businesses will have discovered that much of their past business travel wasn't as essential as they used to think and will cut back on their business travel as well. Against that background it is reasonable to assume that airlines will shrink and will prune their fleets of larger and less efficient, less versatile types.

PS: Assumptions are exactly NOT facts but *assumptions*. ;-)

No worries, it's an answer to a hypothetical question. Overall I'm a bit more pessimistic about the short term future but more optimistic about the long term future than others. We could end up seeing things like mandatory medical tests before you enter the airport, certificates showing one has passed a covid test presented on entry, etc but IMO things will bounce back.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:01 pm

DUSdude wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
That may be the saving grace for the A346 over the A380---the A380 is larger but has fewer LD3 positions (38; the A346 has 43). LH could actually consider reconfiguring the remaining A346s without first class as a B744 replacement and take any that are in storage but not parted out for the same reason, basically ending F from MUC.

The A343 needs to be replaced sooner...as does the long-haul fleet at OS, which has 767s pushing 30.


The A346 can't use all those LD3 positions without incurring a big weight penalty, especially if the pax cabin is actually full. That's why LH has crew rest and lavatories in the lower deck on their A346. That space isn't usable for practical purposes for cargo. The A343 has been a much more effective aircraft in the LH fleet. From a certain sector length onward it is a very efficient aircraft and being CFM56-powered engine maintenance is much, much cheaper. .


The A346 being deployed on the same missions as the B744 is shouldn't have a problem though. The B744 only has 30 LD3 positions.
 
itisi
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:57 pm

You can almost feel the hope they won't come back.... Just pathetic.

It's a real shame the A380 did not fit all Airlines as its simply the best plane to fly on as a passenger (for those of us in Y anyway) it's so quiet inside.... My opionon after flights on BA and LH.
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
IanDL05
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:17 am

Cubsrule wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I suppose T1 can't handle them? That's where LH departs from back to Europe.


I would imagine not. I’m guessing the expansion plans that would have brought FIS capability to the other terminals along with rebuilding/adding gates would have accommodated them, but now...who knows?


I think it was a taxi/tow issue more so than T-1 gates. B17 looks like it has sufficient space, though it has only two jet bridges.

Mexico City received the Air France A380 with only two jet bridges on a daily basis. MEX probably has worst infrastructure than ORD yet it was able to receive the A380 daily for over 4 years and still receives the LH 747-8 with one jet bridge.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:37 am

Revelation wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
As a young person I am far more afraid of the fallout we will see from the response throughout this decade than from the virus itself

I guess no one close to you has died, yet. Get back to us in a few months when we have a better accounting. And maintain physical distancing so it's not you who gets to go fight for your life for a few days in the hospital.

And as a not too young person, get used to it. Globalization will bring on all kinds of effects no one knows much about, same for instant world wide communication. Be prepared for more than this one shock to your system. Disruption may very well become the new norm. Believe it or not we've done a pretty good job keeping civilization intact over the last 75 years or so. Now it's your turn.

Not really, majority of government is still the last generations. We simply cannot survive an economic shut down ever five years.
 
United857
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
DUSdude wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
That may be the saving grace for the A346 over the A380---the A380 is larger but has fewer LD3 positions (38; the A346 has 43). LH could actually consider reconfiguring the remaining A346s without first class as a B744 replacement and take any that are in storage but not parted out for the same reason, basically ending F from MUC.

The A343 needs to be replaced sooner...as does the long-haul fleet at OS, which has 767s pushing 30.


The A346 can't use all those LD3 positions without incurring a big weight penalty, especially if the pax cabin is actually full. That's why LH has crew rest and lavatories in the lower deck on their A346. That space isn't usable for practical purposes for cargo. The A343 has been a much more effective aircraft in the LH fleet. From a certain sector length onward it is a very efficient aircraft and being CFM56-powered engine maintenance is much, much cheaper. .


The A346 being deployed on the same missions as the B744 is shouldn't have a problem though. The B744 only has 30 LD3 positions.

Just want to point out that the 747 can actually use the larger LD1 container, although not many operators still stock that version for the sake of commonality with other aircraft types that can only handle LD3s. Don't know if LH takes advantage of the larger "nose" of the LD1, but if they did the true cargo volume of a B744 is probably closer to 32-33 LD3s.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
viennafly
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:43 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Interesting that the two airlines that operate both the A380 and the 748i (LH and KE) announced that they are parking their A380 but I have not heard anything about their.748s. Are they still flying or not?


Some of them are still flying, currently on repatriation flights or scheduled to ORD 3 times a week currently.

There is a nice overview over the fleet: https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

Dont forget the B748s are powered by a generation newer engines than the A380...
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:02 pm

I just read the article as well.

It seems they are being parked "for now" and then it's a case of "we'll see".

Before this terrible virus incident and all the misery it has brought with it, LH decided to move 5 A380's to MUC as there were routes out of there that legitimized the use of the A/C. There was talk then of removing the A380's completely out of FRA and concentrate on the B747's there.

It says in the article, "the A380 was never the most profitable of aircraft".

I remember "everyone jumped" when it was launched. It became, what I see it as, something to brag about that airlines were getting the A380.

Not to go way off topic here BUT,


Virgin Atlantic wanted to have a casino on board. Korean Air wanted a duty-free store onboard etc...... Even airlines like Air Austral in the Indian Ocean and Kingfisher airlines of India ordered. In the case of Virgin, they admitted after some delays etc. that the aircraft was simply too big for its routes and they did not know what to do with them. In the end, I guess they struck a deal with Airbus to exchange the order for several A330's.

It seems airlines started to think about the A380's future after Singapore Airlines, who after all, were the launch customer, decided that they did not want to renew the lease on the aircraft after the initial lease expired.

Even before this incident, the A380 is too big of an aircraft for most routes, Air France, Qatar and to some extent LH have said that they find it hard to see which flights to operate them on. Even between major alliance hubs, customers want more connections, meaning smaller aircraft at greater frequencies.

As for the 748's of LH, they are smaller, cheaper to operate and apart from KE and CA, LH are the only ones to use them. LH seem to be quite happy with the aircraft's performance.

As to those who have commented on "why do they keep such and such aircraft?" In the case of the A346 for instance, they will be gone in the future, however they have excellent hot-and-high capabilities.

The second hand market for this aircraft will probably be pretty slim.

A possible scenario for the future is to keep the handfuls of A380's at MUC and then all the B747's at FRA (as they are at present). However, it could be that LH decide to get rid of their A380's all together.

Only time will tell, but one thing is certain, everyone is bleeding at the moment. Hopefully the A380 will fly on for many more years, but is it simply too large?

Can, in some extent be compared to Concorde, in the sense that "everyone" wanted the super-fast aircraft, then the OPEC oil crisis hit and everyone except BA and AF cancelled. BA, reportedly paid only £1 per aircraft.

We will see.............
 
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:17 pm

viennafly wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Interesting that the two airlines that operate both the A380 and the 748i (LH and KE) announced that they are parking their A380 but I have not heard anything about their.748s. Are they still flying or not?


Some of them are still flying, currently on repatriation flights or scheduled to ORD 3 times a week currently.

There is a nice overview over the fleet: https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

Dont forget the B748s are powered by a generation newer engines than the A380...

And yet in every head to head competition between the A380 and the 748 the 748 lost out. Perhaps the airlines made the wrong choice?
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:47 am

speedbird52 wrote:
calstanford wrote:
Most airlines and most routes will come back with suppressed demand, at least for a while. It's reasonable to think the A380 won't be back AF and LH

Air France definitely. But the A380 was practically made for Lufthansa. Their entire business model is a hub and spoke airline.


Hmmm, did you forget about that small little airline named EMIRATES? That’s who it was made for.
 
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Re: Final(?) flight of a LH A380

Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:14 am

SEPilot wrote:
And yet in every head to head competition between the A380 and the 748 the 748 lost out. Perhaps the airlines made the wrong choice?

In most of those comparisons the assumption made was that the A380 was full. The problem is that it often is not. It's also not a great at cargo.

I'd say 748 is not a great airplane but A380 is worse, and as it ages it'll worsen quickly.

It's going to be a quickly shrinking fleet with two different odd ball engines whereas 748i will have large amounts of commonality with GEnX flying on 787 and 748F.

LH was looking to get out from under A380 even before covid-19 and chances are it'll be even more willing to park them as time goes on.
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