Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:53 am

Leeham news reports Pratt & Whitney is concurrently developing what might be termed the next generation GTF.

This is an advancement over the current engine, but with more thrust and better fuel economics.

Article: https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... s/#respond

Image
https://blueskypit.com/2019/02/02/ameri ... s-a321neo/

Questions that come up are:
- what growth options might be in 40k lbs, is an A322 still be studied?
- How will CFM respond, does the LEAP also have growth / improvement potential left?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
StTim
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:10 am

Is this another piece in the A321xlr jigsaw?
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:12 am

Better reliability?
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:48 am

No doubt Pratt is building on tons of operational feedback. Lessons learned, reliable statistical data building up.
Also the hot section of the engine was apparently designed somewhat conservative in terms of temperatures and pressure ratios.
The GTF was challenging enough. The hot section is the area where GE/Safran took a step further & Pratt might have opportunity.

This development make total sense not only for Airbus. Pratt is probably dangling a carrot in front of Boeing too.
Probably a 40-45 klbs, 87 inch fan carrot...

Image

https://www.pw.utc.com/products-and-services/products/commercial-engines/pratt-and-whitney-gtf

I wonder if Pratt with stick with the Alu-Ti fan, or look for a Carbon-Ti variant if they go bigger then 80 inch, like GE/Safran & RR also apparently.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:43 am

Maybe for the A321XLR when it has much higher MTOW than the original/LR A321neo?
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:51 am

keesje wrote:
,is an A322 still be studied?
- How will CFM respond, does the LEAP also have growth / improvement potential left?

1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:11 am

I can imagine a takeoff thrust requirement around 35-37 klb , but what are the differences relative to current PW1100G?

Such thrust increase needs significant hardware changes.

What about commonality?
 
olle
Posts: 2257
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:41 am

Antaras wrote:
keesje wrote:
,is an A322 still be studied?
- How will CFM respond, does the LEAP also have growth / improvement potential left?

1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.



338 is already dead :-)

But to kill 797 and 788 in one strike?

Only problem isthat the 737 will be killed as well. I am not shure if Airbus would like it to survive and not being replaced as long as possible.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1990
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:52 am

In one word...Trust...have manufacturers/airlines now re-established it with PW?...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:53 am

Antaras wrote:
..
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.



I hope CFMI is disciplined enough to not change their current CFM56-1A configuration.
It is better to lose some market share than losing money and credibility.
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:04 pm

olle wrote:
Antaras wrote:
keesje wrote:
,is an A322 still be studied?
- How will CFM respond, does the LEAP also have growth / improvement potential left?

1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.



338 is already dead :-)

But to kill 797 and 788 in one strike?

Only problem isthat the 737 will be killed as well. I am not shure if Airbus would like it to survive and not being replaced as long as possible.


Monopoly is not good :D
It will be a disaster not only for AIB but also for most carriers around the world if the next-gen Airbus-aircraft have big scandals just like the Max.
However I think that both AIB and BOE would like to keep the market duopoly, not killing each other and make itself monopoly in the market.
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24332
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:13 pm

keesje wrote:
Leeham news reports Pratt & Whitney is concurrently developing what might be termed the next generation GTF.

This is an advancement over the current engine, but with more thrust and better fuel economics.

Or it might be called a PIP, because that's what the industry calls an engine update with better economics, better durability, and fixes for current issues.

The marketing team is way out in front on this one. :stirthepot:

There already was an expectation of a GTF PIP built in to the NEO program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pratt-plan ... 40.article from 2014 said they expected a 3% PIP "after 2019", but it seems all the problems ( Starting times / shaft bowing, Knife edge seals, Engine vibrations, Excessive corrosion, IFSD, etc ) have pushed it out.

Would be nice to see Qatar as the launch customer, no? :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
tphuang
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:15 pm

Could this + some other improvements add another 500 nm to the range of A321XLR? Maybe even more? Would something like that be capable of flying JFK-GRU or JFK-TLV? Even crazier, could a variant of A321 ever fly JFK to Toyko?

That would kill A330 and take a lot of market away from 787.

Would a A322 with new engine be able to do JFK-LHR?

Other things to consider is what an upgraded GTF can do for A220?
 
TaromA380
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:12 pm

olle wrote:
Antaras wrote:
keesje wrote:
,is an A322 still be studied?
- How will CFM respond, does the LEAP also have growth / improvement potential left?

1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.



338 is already dead :-)

But to kill 797 and 788 in one strike?

Only problem isthat the 737 will be killed as well. I am not shure if Airbus would like it to survive and not being replaced as long as possible.

Maybe there is no more AB fear of a 737 replacement. Perhaps in view of how all the recent Boeing projects went on, AB are now betting that a new Boeing program will end up in another mess.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:41 pm

It appears that the current engine may be in such bad shape that Pratt & Whitney will need to abandon it and create an advanced engine to address all its faults

Summary
  • New name, better economics, better durability.
  • Designed for the A321XLR, but greater flexibility.
  • Fixing current issues.


https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... s/#respond

Is Pratt & Whitney giving up in the current engine and needing to switch to a new engine to “fix current issues”? Airbus marketing will promote this as a successful outcome and upgrade, but in reality it might be admission that the PW1100G lifespan is short.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:42 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
Better reliability?


Sounds like Pratt needs an advanced engine to get adequate reliability.

Is the current engine is on the verge of not even meeting ETOPS requirements due to the high shutdown rate? An A321XLR with limited ETOPS due to the engine not being reliable enough to be safely operated over water won’t be very popular. Perhaps that explains why the A321XLR is still 3 years away

“This AD was prompted by multiple reports of in-flight engine shutdowns as the result of high-cycle fatigue causing fracture of certain parts of the main gearbox (MGB) assembly,” the FAA says in its proposal due to be published in the Federal Register on 4 October. “The FAA is issuing this AD to prevent failure of the MGB assembly. The unsafe condition, if not addressed, could result in failure of one or more engines, loss of thrust control, and loss of the airplane.”

The proposed AD would supersede interim AD 2019-11-08, issued in June, which imposed this requirement on all engines that operate on 180-minute and 120-minute extended-range twin-engine operational performance standards, or ETOPS flights. ETOPS is a rule which permits twin engine aircraft to fly routes which, at some point, is more than 60 minutes flying time away from the nearest airport suitable for emergency landing.


https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 69.article
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:53 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It appears that the current engine may be in such bad shape that Pratt & Whitney will need to abandon it and create an advanced engine to address all its faults

Summary
  • New name, better economics, better durability.
  • Designed for the A321XLR, but greater flexibility.
  • Fixing current issues.


https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... s/#respond

Is Pratt & Whitney giving up in the current engine and needing to switch to a new engine to “fix current issues”? Airbus marketing will promote this as a successful outcome and upgrade, but in reality it might be admission that the PW1100G lifespan is short.


It seems your "Summary" qoute is the summary of the Leeham article. Which is entirely diiferent from your strong own opinion above it. Just to prevent confusion.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24332
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:00 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It appears that the current engine may be in such bad shape that Pratt & Whitney will need to abandon it and create an advanced engine to address all its faults

Summary
  • New name, better economics, better durability.
  • Designed for the A321XLR, but greater flexibility.
  • Fixing current issues.


https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... s/#respond

Is Pratt & Whitney giving up in the current engine and needing to switch to a new engine to “fix current issues”? Airbus marketing will promote this as a successful outcome and upgrade, but in reality it might be admission that the PW1100G lifespan is short.

I really don't understand this emotional need to abandon things that have some flaws.

We all have flaws, and so do things like jet engines and airplanes.

Very few things are so devoid of value that we just abandon them.

The current GTFs will be in service for a long time. Fixes for the flaws are on their way. Improvements from PIPs can in many cases be retro-fit.

All the grounded MAXes will RTS and be in service a long time. The seriously flawed parts are removed and replaced and it has more scrutiny than any airliner in our times. Crews will be trained, aircraft will be restored, it will be back to full production rate.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:35 pm

keesje wrote:


Ironic photo, given that AA's A321neos have Leap engines. :D
First to fly the 787-9
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:48 pm

This the the best conclusion so far.

Can anybody tell us an estimate how much this thing would cost them?

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
It appears that the current engine may be in such bad shape that Pratt & Whitney will need to abandon it and create an advanced engine to address all its faults

Summary
  • New name, better economics, better durability.
  • Designed for the A321XLR, but greater flexibility.
  • Fixing current issues.


https://leehamnews.com/2020/03/30/pratt ... s/#respond

Is Pratt & Whitney giving up in the current engine and needing to switch to a new engine to “fix current issues”? Airbus marketing will promote this as a successful outcome and upgrade, but in reality it might be admission that the PW1100G lifespan is short.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7069
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Antaras wrote:
1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.

Then Airbus won't have a cheaper, longer-ranged, medium capacity widebody in their product line (even if not exactly flying off the factory).


olle wrote:
338 is already dead :-)

But to kill 797 and 788 in one strike?

The 788 is the only thing that's keeping the A338 breathing.


Revelation wrote:
Or it might be called a PIP, because that's what the industry calls an engine update with better economics, better durability, and fixes for current issues.

The marketing team is way out in front on this one.

They, of course, had to put a very positive spin on it. :spin:


Revelation wrote:
Very few things are so devoid of value that we just abandon them.

The A338 above being a prime example! :cheerful:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:29 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
Better reliability?


What? The current version is not very reliable?
 
744SPX
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:00 pm

I think this is aimed squarely at the A322
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:31 pm

744SPX wrote:
I think this is aimed squarely at the A322


That could be true although I think Pratt is desperate to save some market share on the A320neo. They are losing market share to the LeapX due to the issues with the engine.
 
744SPX
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:35 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
744SPX wrote:
I think this is aimed squarely at the A322


That could be true although I think Pratt is desperate to save some market share on the A320neo. They are losing market share to the LeapX due to the issues with the engine.


Yep, definitely that too.
 
LDRA
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:22 pm

How are they going to fund this given current economic environment
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24332
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:52 pm

LDRA wrote:
How are they going to fund this given current economic environment

Pratt & Whitney makes every engine for every F-22 and F-35 fighter and are a part of a huge technology conglomerate. They will be fine.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:50 pm

If Pratt is aiming at a Boeing FSA, CFM will have to respond I guess.

Image
http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/pw1100g-gtf/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:34 am

Antaras wrote:
Maybe for the A321XLR when it has much higher MTOW than the original/LR A321neo?


According to the press release below, the A321XLR will have 101 metric tonne MTOW.

Please note the phrase "to preserve the same take-off performance and engine thrust requirements as today’s A321neo".
The Pratt & Whitney executive mentioned something about increased thrust for the new generation GTF PW1000G.
What's going on?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html

QUOTE:
    The changes include: the new permanent Rear Centre Tank (RCT) for more fuel volume; a modified landing gear for an increased maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 101 metric tonnes; and an optimised wing trailing-edge flap configuration to preserve the same take-off performance and engine thrust requirements as today’s A321neo.
Last edited by VV on Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1280
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:45 am

Revelation wrote:
LDRA wrote:
How are they going to fund this given current economic environment

Pratt & Whitney makes every engine for every F-22 and F-35 fighter and are a part of a huge technology conglomerate. They will be fine.

Is this another example of government military contracts subsidising civil projects?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:07 am

tphuang wrote:
Could this + some other improvements add another 500 nm to the range of A321XLR? Maybe even more? Would something like that be capable of flying JFK-GRU or JFK-TLV? Even crazier, could a variant of A321 ever fly JFK to Toyko?

That would kill A330 and take a lot of market away from 787.

The per-seat costs on such a thing would be ATROCIOUS.

We'd need more significant leap in tech/efficiency before that would become a palatable idea.

Then there's the inability to carry significant cargo, which would also be a no-go for most longhaul carriers on trips like that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:10 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Could this + some other improvements add another 500 nm to the range of A321XLR? Maybe even more? Would something like that be capable of flying JFK-GRU or JFK-TLV? Even crazier, could a variant of A321 ever fly JFK to Toyko?

That would kill A330 and take a lot of market away from 787.

The per-seat costs on such a thing would be ATROCIOUS.

We'd need more significant leap in tech/efficiency before that would become a palatable idea.

Then there's the inability to carry significant cargo, which would also be a no-go for most longhaul carriers on trips like that.


Late last year discussed, it seems airline operating costs for capasity of the XLR are in modern WB territory . Probably because it's half the weight, half the purchase costs and has very lean engines.

That's why many (including buyers) consider it to have game changing capabilities. You can do medium return flights (e.g. TATL) within 24 hrs, 7 days a week. Boosting utilization, frequencies or connecting medium sized communities directly to your regional hubs.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/04/two-t ... -a330-900/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:50 pm

Can it be fitted to the older aircraft?

Can the new engine be intermixed with the older one?

What is the impact of this new engine to the aircraft equipped with the old ones? Will the market value drop significantly?
 
744SPX
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:01 pm

VV wrote:
Can it be fitted to the older aircraft?

Can the new engine be intermixed with the older one?

What is the impact of this new engine to the aircraft equipped with the old ones? Will the market value drop significantly?


I'm guessing that the A320 series could take a fan increase of maybe 3 inches going from 81" to 84" before landing gear changes need to be made...
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:02 pm

Is there any reason to believe airlines would defer delivery of their PW1100G powered aircraft in order to get the new generation engines?
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:29 pm

VV wrote:
Is there any reason to believe airlines would defer delivery of their PW1100G powered aircraft in order to get the new generation engines?



I think they are ordering LeapX engines instead of PW1100G
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:39 pm

keesje wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Could this + some other improvements add another 500 nm to the range of A321XLR? Maybe even more? Would something like that be capable of flying JFK-GRU or JFK-TLV? Even crazier, could a variant of A321 ever fly JFK to Toyko?

That would kill A330 and take a lot of market away from 787.

The per-seat costs on such a thing would be ATROCIOUS.

We'd need more significant leap in tech/efficiency before that would become a palatable idea.

Then there's the inability to carry significant cargo, which would also be a no-go for most longhaul carriers on trips like that.


Late last year discussed, it seems airline operating costs for capasity of the XLR are in modern WB territory . Probably because it's half the weight, half the purchase costs and has very lean engines.

That's why many (including buyers) consider it to have game changing capabilities. You can do medium return flights (e.g. TATL) within 24 hrs, 7 days a week. Boosting utilization, frequencies or connecting medium sized communities directly to your regional hubs.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/04/two-t ... -a330-900/


More like 1/4 to 1/3 the purchase price of a Widebody but with 50% of the seating capacity.

Engine and airframe maintenance are less than half as well, meaning a less cost per pax compared to widebody.

And it’s farrrrrrr more versatile.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:22 am

keesje wrote:
Late last year discussed, it seems airline operating costs for capasity of the XLR are in modern WB territory . Probably because it's half the weight, half the purchase costs and has very lean engines

Great for an 8-10hr flight.
14hr? Doubtful.


Okcflyer wrote:
the purchase price of a Widebody but with 50% of the seating capacity.

The latter part only furthering my case: per-seat costs on this thing, on something like the TPAC proposed, would likely be terrible
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:09 am

LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
Late last year discussed, it seems airline operating costs for capasity of the XLR are in modern WB territory . Probably because it's half the weight, half the purchase costs and has very lean engines

Great for an 8-10hr flight.
14hr? Doubtful.


Okcflyer wrote:
the purchase price of a Widebody but with 50% of the seating capacity.

The latter part only furthering my case: per-seat costs on this thing, on something like the TPAC proposed, would likely be terrible


If think XLR maximum flight times will be 8-9 hours. The way earth is populated, that embraces billions of people.

Empty weight of an XLR is around 52t, of an A330-800 or 787-8 OEW is ~120t. That indicates something about operating costs. CASM for a ~ 175 seat, 3 class XLR cabin will be competitive to a 3 class 787 or A330 with ~250-270 seats.

Of course XLR's won't be able take (serious) cargo, won't offer lh range and won't replace WB's where they do well. But it opens up a lot of new opportunities. It's a new capability for many airlines.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1280
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:09 am

Okcflyer wrote:
More like 1/4 to 1/3 the purchase price of a Widebody but with 50% of the seating capacity.

That may be the case but airlines operating long haul narrowbodies need to keep in mind that 6-9 hour flights will be extremely uncomfortable on seats with 28" pitch. Most long haul widebodies have 31"-34" seat pitch in economy.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20001
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:15 am

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Leeham news reports Pratt & Whitney is concurrently developing what might be termed the next generation GTF.

This is an advancement over the current engine, but with more thrust and better fuel economics.

Or it might be called a PIP, because that's what the industry calls an engine update with better economics, better durability, and fixes for current issues.

The marketing team is way out in front on this one. :stirthepot:

There already was an expectation of a GTF PIP built in to the NEO program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pratt-plan ... 40.article from 2014 said they expected a 3% PIP "after 2019", but it seems all the problems ( Starting times / shaft bowing, Knife edge seals, Engine vibrations, Excessive corrosion, IFSD, etc ) have pushed it out.

Would be nice to see Qatar as the launch customer, no? :biggrin:

It sounds like a PiP with a heavy dose of marketing. Perhaps a new casing for the variable cycle features. Perhaps an increase in fan diameter, but a small increase.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:24 am

The article says more thrust too. If that is 40k lbs, it's more than a PIP. Maybe it is required to fully benefit from the XLR's 101t MTOW.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:44 am

When will this super-duper engine be available?
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:06 am

744SPX wrote:
VV wrote:
Can it be fitted to the older aircraft?

Can the new engine be intermixed with the older one?

What is the impact of this new engine to the aircraft equipped with the old ones? Will the market value drop significantly?


I'm guessing that the A320 series could take a fan increase of maybe 3 inches going from 81" to 84" before landing gear changes need to be made...


Maybe so, but can the new engine be intermixed with the older engine version or can the older airframe be retrofitted with this new generation engine?
 
User avatar
keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 13956
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:54 am

VV wrote:
744SPX wrote:
VV wrote:
Can it be fitted to the older aircraft?

Can the new engine be intermixed with the older one?

What is the impact of this new engine to the aircraft equipped with the old ones? Will the market value drop significantly?


I'm guessing that the A320 series could take a fan increase of maybe 3 inches going from 81" to 84" before landing gear changes need to be made...


Maybe so, but can the new engine be intermixed with the older engine version or can the older airframe be retrofitted with this new generation engine?


Of course not, structurally different loads, airflows, flight dynamics would make it a a significant change from the certification basis. Requiring a lot of modifications, testing and recertification.

On EIS, "The aircraft (XLR) is scheduled to enter final assembly line in 2021, while first deliveries are about to begin in 2023"

Regardless of it being a PIP, new versions or super duper engine, I think looking back the GTF changed the industry.
15 years ago Prattt started to get the GTF under control and convinced BBD (~2004) and Airbus (~ 2008) it offered substantial improvement over existing engines.

Airbus recognized the bigger CSeries would become real good aircraft and launched the NEO leading to the 2010 orde spike.
This spike (including 737 operators) forced Boeings hand on the NSA 737 re-engine, pushing them into a rush that hurts them until this day.
Also it triggred Boeing - US DoC protectionism that ultimately drove drove BBD in the arms of Airbus. That played a role in the disruption the NB duopoly.

Of course a string of (short term greed driven) bad decisons by Boeing play a big role, and there is the CFM LEAP, but IMO the GTF proved a game changer.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
Antaras
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:04 am

keesje wrote:
The article says more thrust too. If that is 40k lbs, it's more than a PIP. Maybe it is required to fully benefit from the XLR's 101t MTOW.

Read this:
VV wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Maybe for the A321XLR when it has much higher MTOW than the original/LR A321neo?


According to the press release below, the A321XLR will have 101 metric tonne MTOW.

Please note the phrase "to preserve the same take-off performance and engine thrust requirements as today’s A321neo".
The Pratt & Whitney executive mentioned something about increased thrust for the new generation GTF PW1000G.
What's going on?

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html

QUOTE:
    The changes include: the new permanent Rear Centre Tank (RCT) for more fuel volume; a modified landing gear for an increased maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 101 metric tonnes; and an optimised wing trailing-edge flap configuration to preserve the same take-off performance and engine thrust requirements as today’s A321neo.



I don't think that this engine is for the XLR as Aib has improved the wings and flaps config from the current A321neo.
Edit signature
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13278
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:23 am

keesje wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
keesje wrote:
Late last year discussed, it seems airline operating costs for capasity of the XLR are in modern WB territory . Probably because it's half the weight, half the purchase costs and has very lean engines

Great for an 8-10hr flight.
14hr? Doubtful.


Okcflyer wrote:
the purchase price of a Widebody but with 50% of the seating capacity.

The latter part only furthering my case: per-seat costs on this thing, on something like the TPAC proposed, would likely be terrible


If think XLR maximum flight times will be 8-9 hours. The way earth is populated, that embraces billions of people.

Empty weight of an XLR is around 52t, of an A330-800 or 787-8 OEW is ~120t. That indicates something about operating costs. CASM for a ~ 175 seat, 3 class XLR cabin will be competitive to a 3 class 787 or A330 with ~250-270 seats.

Of course XLR's won't be able take (serious) cargo, won't offer lh range and won't replace WB's where they do well. But it opens up a lot of new opportunities. It's a new capability for many airlines.


Yes, I'm well aware of all of that; but if you're going to put that much effort into a reply, wouldn't it make sense to pay attention to the actual context that's being responded to in the first place? ....nobody is gonna be doing a scheduled JFK-NRT and JFK-TLV in an A32X of any type, no matter how many letters are added thereafter.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
VV
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:08 am

Antaras wrote:
...
I don't think that this engine is for the XLR as Aib has improved the wings and flaps config from the current A321neo.


It is not clear if this engine is for A320 family or for something else.

As long as I know there is no new single aisle aircraft project to replace or extend the A320neo family beyond the A321 XLR.

The marketing message is quite confusing or it was not properly translated/reported in that article.

There are a lot of questions around this super-duper engine that need to be clarified.

Let's wait what Pratt&Whitney has to say on this new generation GTF engine:
Something intrigues me much though. I do not understand why Pratt&Whitney issue the communication about the new generation PW1100G independently without similar Airbus communication.
 
Noshow
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:36 am

Airbus is clearly on the road to grow the A321neo by weight, range and capacity. So the current wing will come to an end and they will need a new one. As they have scanned the original A320 construction plans into their software it will be manageable without being overly expensive. This is why a new engine would perfectly make sense now. If you can integrate it with some new wing you get the maximum performance gains out of it. For Airbus this is means not only fully harvesting the market niche of the A321neo but it's a cheap counter attack to whatever Boeing's NMA might become or not.

Airbus is building new digital production lines that will be able to handle bigger single aisle types aside from the A320neo-family as we know it today.

I see this likely to happen. It would make sense.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9638
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:49 am

lightsaber wrote:
Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Leeham news reports Pratt & Whitney is concurrently developing what might be termed the next generation GTF.

This is an advancement over the current engine, but with more thrust and better fuel economics.

Or it might be called a PIP, because that's what the industry calls an engine update with better economics, better durability, and fixes for current issues.

The marketing team is way out in front on this one. :stirthepot:

There already was an expectation of a GTF PIP built in to the NEO program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pratt-plan ... 40.article from 2014 said they expected a 3% PIP "after 2019", but it seems all the problems ( Starting times / shaft bowing, Knife edge seals, Engine vibrations, Excessive corrosion, IFSD, etc ) have pushed it out.

Would be nice to see Qatar as the launch customer, no? :biggrin:

It sounds like a PiP with a heavy dose of marketing. Perhaps a new casing for the variable cycle features. Perhaps an increase in fan diameter, but a small increase.

Lightsaber


It is mostly a glorified PiP. the higher thrust option is already designed in.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos