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VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:56 am

Noshow wrote:
Airbus is clearly on the road to grow the A321neo by weight, range and capacity. So the current wing will come to an end and they will need a new one. As they have scanned the original A320 construction plans into their software it will be manageable without being overly expensive. This is why a new engine would perfectly make sense now. If you can integrate it with some new wing you get the maximum performance gains out of it. For Airbus this is means not only fully harvesting the market niche of the A321neo but it's a cheap counter attack to whatever Boeing's NMA might become or not.

Airbus is building new digital production lines that will be able to handle bigger single aisle types aside from the A320neo-family as we know it today.

I see this likely to happen. It would make sense.


Are you saying Pratt & Whitney rolled out a communication on an engine for an application Airbus has not formally announced (yet)?

It would be a weird way to do it, wouldn't it?
 
Noshow
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:19 am

Engines take way longer than aircraft to develop and manufacturers like to publicly launch programs with several key customers under their belt. So it could take time until they officially say anything as this might not be the right moment. It's better after the crisis. New ideas, new plans, new momentum and such.

I could even imagine that the ACF fuselage structure is prepared to be part of longer, higher capacity length versions we don't know yet.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:37 am

Noshow wrote:
Engines take way longer than aircraft to develop and manufacturers like to publicly launch programs with several key customers under their belt. So it could take time until they officially say anything as this might not be the right moment. It's better after the crisis. New ideas, new plans, new momentum and such.

I could even imagine that the ACF fuselage structure is prepared to be part of longer, higher capacity length versions we don't know yet.


It still does not feel right to hear from Pratt & Whitney about an engine for an Airbus application without any coordinated communication from Airbus.

I guess at this time customers and potential customers are rushing to Airbus asking for clarification:
 
Noshow
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:41 am

PW might go public early to attract Boeing as the possible second user of this engine in parallel.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:22 am

Noshow wrote:
PW might go public early to attract Boeing as the possible second user of this engine in parallel.


Well, I think it is unlikely.

To me this whole thing sounds like a communication/marketing blunder.
 
Noshow
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:28 am

Or Pratt got frustrated by NMA-hesitant Boeing and went public on it's own?
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:27 pm

Noshow wrote:
Or Pratt got frustrated by NMA-hesitant Boeing and went public on it's own?


The title of the article is "Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus".

And it says,

    Summary
    • New name, better economics, better durability.
    • Designed for the A321XLR, but greater flexibility.
    • Fixing current issues.



At A321 XLR launch Airbus stated the following.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 21xlr.html

QUOTE:
    The changes include: the new permanent Rear Centre Tank (RCT) for more fuel volume; a modified landing gear for an increased maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 101 metric tonnes; and an optimised wing trailing-edge flap configuration to preserve the same take-off performance and engine thrust requirements as today’s A321neo.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:37 pm

I think the utmost important information from the article is that the engine will have a new name.

What the heck?
 
strfyr51
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:22 am

tphuang wrote:
Could this + some other improvements add another 500 nm to the range of A321XLR? Maybe even more? Would something like that be capable of flying JFK-GRU or JFK-TLV? Even crazier, could a variant of A321 ever fly JFK to Toyko?

That would kill A330 and take a lot of market away from 787.

Would a A322 with new engine be able to do JFK-LHR?

Other things to consider is what an upgraded GTF can do for A220?

I would bet that if and when Boeing launches the B797 that Airbus will counter with the A322 matching whatever configuration boeing comes up with either single or double aisle. Airbus has usually always gone bigger than Boeing and has also many times lost their Shirts. I do not think they can continue to go always Larger because the A380 was such a flop. They need to be a market contender with an Airplane that matches whatever Boeing offers with at least the Same performance and passenger load and Not an airplane that can't still fit into Many US Airport gate spaces. as the USA is NOT going to redesign their Airports just to suit any particular airplane. So the airplane will have to work in the Podunk Airports as well as the Metropolis Airports. Wing tip to wing tip with the Boeings. Especially if this airplane is to replace and outperform the Current market offerings.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:13 am

Didn't Pratt & Whitney executive explicitly say that the super duper engine is for A321 XLR and also it fixes the current reliability issues?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:21 am

Antaras wrote:
olle wrote:
Antaras wrote:
1. A322? If Airbus actually wants to kill the A330-800neo.
2. I don't know if the LEAP's design can allow CFM to push its thrust to 4000lbf. The LEAP was designed from the CFM56 series, with the most powerful variant with the maximum thrust of ~34000lbf.



338 is already dead :-)

But to kill 797 and 788 in one strike?

Only problem isthat the 737 will be killed as well. I am not shure if Airbus would like it to survive and not being replaced as long as possible.


Monopoly is not good :D
It will be a disaster not only for AIB but also for most carriers around the world if the next-gen Airbus-aircraft have big scandals just like the Max.
However I think that both AIB and BOE would like to keep the market duopoly, not killing each other and make itself monopoly in the market.


Some time back, when Boeing was 70% and Airbus 30% of the commercial airliner market (with 1 or 2 % for other producers), I did not read a lot about a monopoly not being good.
A duopoly can exist with one contender considerable larger. The smaller contender has than just to come with saleable frames.
 
packsonflight
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:12 pm

The 321 XLR is a done deal, and it makes no sense assuming the new PW engine is intended for the XLR
New name for this new offering implies more than subtle changes from the XLR engine, so what can it be?
Possibly PW is going with new gearing ratio, possibly 3.5:1 in stead of 3:1 and even larger fan. I assume that the rumoured carbon wing Airbus has designed for the 320 family makes it possible for airbus to go all in on the fan diameter, and take full advantage of the geared fan technology
Apparently the current GTF engine has relatively old turbine technology, and if they go with CMC turbine and increase the internal pressure ratio, mated on a wing that can contain 25t of fuel in wing and center tank, it will be a real beast.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:22 pm

packsonflight wrote:
The 321 XLR is a done deal, and it makes no sense assuming the new PW engine is intended for the XLR
New name for this new offering implies more than subtle changes from the XLR engine, so what can it be?
.....


The article explicitly mentions the super-duper engine is intended for A321 XLR.

I think the new name would be PW11000G-SD (Super Duper).
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:11 pm

VV wrote:
Didn't Pratt & Whitney executive explicitly say that the super duper engine is for A321 XLR and also it fixes the current reliability issues?


Yes this engine upgrade is addressing reliability issues. It hopefully will help Pratt address all the airlines switching to the LeapX engine.

"We are pleased to partner with CFM for our next batch of Airbus A320neo and A321neo aircraft.
The CFM LEAP engine will allow IndiGo to maintain its strong focus on lowering operating costs and delivering fuel efficiency with high standards of reliability. This new partnership will allow IndiGo to continue to provide affordable fares to its customers."
Riyaz Peermohamed, Chief Aircraft Acquisition and Financing Officer of IndiGo


https://www.cfmaeroengines.com/press-ar ... -1a-order/

Last year Pratt lost its biggest commercial customer when IndiGo decided to drop PW for CFM engines for future A320neo deliveries. PW had to come up with something as their market share dissolves
 
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keesje
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:31 pm

Pratt is exclusive on both the E2 and A220s, sits on the winning NEO's, and has Spacejet and MS21 waiting backstage.

Who would have believed this comeback only 10-15 years ago when everything seemed CFM56/CF34, GE seemed utouchable and JT8's /PW4000s filled the boneyards.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:52 pm

keesje wrote:
Pratt is exclusive on both the E2 and A220s, sits on the winning NEO's, and has Spacejet and MS21 waiting backstage.

Who would have believed this comeback only 10-15 years ago when everything seemed CFM56/CF34, GE seemed utouchable and JT8's /PW4000s filled the boneyards.


I guess you deliberately forgot V2500.
 
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keesje
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:00 pm

VV wrote:
keesje wrote:
Pratt is exclusive on both the E2 and A220s, sits on the winning NEO's, and has Spacejet and MS21 waiting backstage.

Who would have believed this comeback only 10-15 years ago when everything seemed CFM56/CF34, GE seemed utouchable and JT8's /PW4000s filled the boneyards.


I guess you deliberately forgot V2500.


? No V2500 was a share of a share of a market share. There also JT9, PW2000 probably a few others for civil aviation. But it doesn't change the bigger picture I referenced.

It's also coming more clear this isn't just a PW1100 PIP as suggested.

VV wrote:
I hope CFMI is disciplined enough to not change their current CFM56-1A configuration.
It is better to lose some market share than losing money and credibility.


What is a CFM56-1A? I know the -2, -3, -5s, -7.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:39 am

All this assuming that international air travel never skipped a beat and it’s business as usual once the dust settles.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
UA444
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:05 am

keesje wrote:
Pratt is exclusive on both the E2 and A220s, sits on the winning NEO's, and has Spacejet and MS21 waiting backstage.

Who would have believed this comeback only 10-15 years ago when everything seemed CFM56/CF34, GE seemed utouchable and JT8's /PW4000s filled the boneyards.

I really hope UA gets PW engines for their 50 321XLR’s
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:26 am

keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
I hope CFMI is disciplined enough to not change their current CFM56-1A configuration.
It is better to lose some market share than losing money and credibility.


What is a CFM56-1A? I know the -2, -3, -5s, -7.

VV must have meant the LEAP-1A, which is on the A320neo Family.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:22 am

WayexTDI wrote:
keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
I hope CFMI is disciplined enough to not change their current CFM56-1A configuration.
It is better to lose some market share than losing money and credibility.


What is a CFM56-1A? I know the -2, -3, -5s, -7.

VV must have meant the LEAP-1A, which is on the A320neo Family.


Sorry for the mishap. Indeed I meant CFM Leap.

The CFM56 and CFM Leap are both conventional two spool (two shaft) architecture, that is why I mixed them up.

In any case I do hope CFM would be disciplined enough to not change their engine configuration on the A320neo. What they need is to fix the durability issues present in the early build.

I still remember the time when International Aero Engine offered the Superfan to Airbus for the A340. If I am not mistaken it was called the V2500SF or something like that. It was a geared turbofan.
Finally Pratt & Whitney managed to build a geared turbofan that works (more or less).

I had a mentor back then who said that the engine core can deliver only so much power, gear or no gear, and thus adding a gear is only shifting/moving an issue somewhere else.
 
VV
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Re: Leeham: Pratt & Whitney committed to advanced GTF for Airbus, thrust, sfc.

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:50 pm

Since this advanced GTF is proposed for the A321 XLR, it may be compatible with the older engine versions.

Can it replace earlier PW1100G GTF engines on earlier A320neo airframes?

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