Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
720B
Topic Author
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:52 am

Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:54 pm

As per Sam Chui's website, A Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident, on January 1st 2020; which involved the aircraft descending below 670 feet, whilst still nearly 6.5 nautical miles from the airport.

https://samchui.com/2020/03/30/thai-air ... oIx9YhKiUl
 
ATCtower
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:18 pm

Reading the link that sure sounds scary as hell!

Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type???
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:21 pm

Unstable approaches are nothing new in aviation, but certainly worth investigating. I’m curious how the navigation system was performing. Hopefully the investigation will tell us what led to the approach so we don’t end up with another Alitalia 404 or Asiana 214

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alitalia_Flight_404

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_ ... Flight_214
 
sailsail
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:31 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:23 pm

ATCtower wrote:
Reading the link that sure sounds scary as hell!

Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type???


It’s a newish aircraft to the fleet and the world for that matter. There are going to be captains with low hours, also they don’t have to be a first officer for years in the type before becoming captain. He/she could have been a captain on something else and then upgraded. I don’t know the carrier specifics but generally you have check pilots sitting in FOs spot and higher qualified FO’s until some predetermine time that the captain is ready. Again it changes by carrier. There are other rules as well till they obtain enough hours in the left seat.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:23 pm

ATCtower wrote:
Reading the link that sure sounds scary as hell!

Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type???


That’s not unusual for such a new airplane like the A350. It’s not like Thai Airways captains can get easily get hours On a type of plane that the airline doesn’t fly
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4239
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:23 pm

ATCtower wrote:
Reading the link that sure sounds scary as hell!

Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type???


You have to start somewhere. "Only" 400 hours on the A350 could still mean he holds 10.000 hours on the A380 or A330.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5614
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:41 pm

ATCtower wrote:
Reading the link that sure sounds scary as hell!

Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type???

When an airline gets a new type every single pilot, including the one flying the first revenue flight, will have 0 to low double digit hours in the type (there will be some training flights, but most will be in simulators). You have to start somewhere. And due to the similarities and common type ratings with other Airbus planes, it really isn’t relevant if the pilot has experience in others. Flying an unstabilized approach has nothing to do with being unfamiliar with the aircraft type; there is something else wrong.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
TaromA380
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:24 pm

The Airbus envelope protection should have avoided any real danger, or not, in this case ?
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4283
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:41 pm

Sounds like a false glideslope, no?

TaromA380 wrote:
The Airbus envelope protection should have avoided any real danger, or not, in this case ?


Airbus' flight envelope protection system is perfectly happy for you to fly into terrain - so long as you're not about to stall or overspeed whilst doing so. ;)
First to fly the 787-9
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:03 pm

zkojq wrote:
Sounds like a false glideslope, no?

TaromA380 wrote:
The Airbus envelope protection should have avoided any real danger, or not, in this case ?


Airbus' flight envelope protection system is perfectly happy for you to fly into terrain - so long as you're not about to stall or overspeed whilst doing so. ;)

I guess Germanwings 9525 is a perfect example of that.
 
LDRA
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:16 pm

.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7063
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:16 am

This incident has nothing with aircraft type to do. And both flight crew members had thousands of hours. Even if any zero hours pilot should be crucified for doing this mistake.

It looks like they did a slam dunk approach, and both crews happened to fall asleep in the process. The GPWS saved the day, as it was designed to do.

Further details in the BFU report early next year or so.

They had a medical emergency in the cabin. The reason for mentioning that could be to make us readers guess that the reason for the non-standard approach was some priority granted by the tower due to the medical. The BFU of course never provides anything with a smell of guesswork in a preliminary report. Facts only. But facts (and rumors) are the building blocks of every guess.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ATCtower
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:46 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:59 am

I obviously stand corrected about hour accumulation.

Still seems odd that a FO would have significantly more hours in the type than a captain.

I know the promotion to captain is more than hours and is often politics but I’m not sure how I would feel trusting my life to the ultimate decision maker when they’re still so fresh to the plane they certainly couldn’t understand it all.

I guess to me it’s akin to a controller who may have been certified at 6 different facilities on their first day without a trainer at their new facility. Sure, they can probably get the job done but damn it just seems like introducing risk.
By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
 
BenTheGreat97
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:18 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:26 am

ATCtower wrote:
I obviously stand corrected about hour accumulation.

Still seems odd that a FO would have significantly more hours in the type than a captain.

I know the promotion to captain is more than hours and is often politics but I’m not sure how I would feel trusting my life to the ultimate decision maker when they’re still so fresh to the plane they certainly couldn’t understand it all.

I guess to me it’s akin to a controller who may have been certified at 6 different facilities on their first day without a trainer at their new facility. Sure, they can probably get the job done but damn it just seems like introducing risk.



Example:

First officer on the a330 has 2,500 hours and instead of waiting a few years and a few thousand more hours, bids for an FO spot on the a350 and gets it. Flies for a while and acumulates 1,500 hours on type.

Captain on the a330 has 7,600 hours total, has been captain for probably several years now and has an opportunity to bid captain on the a350. He gets it. Since Airbus planes are all pretty similar to one another, the things he's responsible for as captain don't really change, he just has to know the new computer systems, speeds and limitations on the a350 for the most part.

I highly doubt this had any bearing on the incident whatsoever.
 
KFTG
Posts: 805
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:36 am

ATCtower wrote:
Equally scary, a captain of a wide body aircraft with only 400 hours in the type?

This is nonsensical and has nothing to do with reality and is brought up every time there is an incident or accident. How else are pilots supposed to get experience in the seat without experience in the seat? While we're on the subject, how many hours did the Asiana pilots have before they flew the jet into the sea wall? The quality of training is more important than the quantity of the training.
 
N47
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:38 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:52 am

zkojq wrote:
Sounds like a false glideslope, no?


Thats a good guess. I would say thats unlikely since false glideslopes tend to produce glide path angles higher than 3 and usually multiples of 3 degrees such as 6 depending on the glideslope type. The most issue is the null reference type of glide slope. TK6491 IIRC was the one caused by a false GS. Maybe GS or ILS were out of service at the time, similar to what happened in the asiana 214 case.
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:45 am

There has been a thread already: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1439109&p=21937017#p21936933
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Thai Airways Airbus A350 was involved in a serious landing incident

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:11 am

Perhaps the crew were not alert to the degree one would prefer, but the root cause of the incident seems to be ATC vectoring an aircraft to intercept the glide slope from above. Not the first time it's caused in an incident in FRA (and elsewhere) and I, for one, trust the BFU will not go for the easy option and throw the crew under the bus, but rather investigate why FRA ATC has a tendency to vector aircraft in ways that may lead to an incident such as this. Once all of the root causes have been established, develop mitigating actions to reduce or eliminate the risk of reoccurrence.

PS
It's not a landing incident, as the aircraft never came close to making contact with the runway. It's a final approach incident.
Signature. You just read one.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos