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NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:10 pm

777ER wrote:
Saw an article somewhere today that quoted Cam Wallace (Air NZ) saying that engineers are working on a way to convert a 772 into a pure cargo aircraft!


This is interesting but it will have it's challenges. Removal of the seats is the easiest job and I expect adding nets to secure the loads will be the next step.. Problems with having to bulk load is a very slow method for such a large area of the main deck. Also the passenger size door will have limiting effect on loading especially bulky items. But the increased freight capacity could make a huge difference from a financial perspective.
 
x1234
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:56 pm

I read on the other thread that Aerolinas Argentinas is flying EZE-AKL-PVG to pick up medical supplies. So I wonder their A332 DOES have ETOPS 330 required for the South Pacific crossing. If this true is there a chance AR to bring back the EZE-AKL-SYD route!?
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:11 pm

NZ516 wrote:
777ER wrote:
Saw an article somewhere today that quoted Cam Wallace (Air NZ) saying that engineers are working on a way to convert a 772 into a pure cargo aircraft!


This is interesting but it will have it's challenges. Removal of the seats is the easiest job and I expect adding nets to secure the loads will be the next step.. Problems with having to bulk load is a very slow method for such a large area of the main deck. Also the passenger size door will have limiting effect on loading especially bulky items. But the increased freight capacity could make a huge difference from a financial perspective.


A few carriers doing this. It will be lighter stuff that can be easily secured.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:14 pm

x1234 wrote:
I read on the other thread that Aerolinas Argentinas is flying EZE-AKL-PVG to pick up medical supplies. So I wonder their A332 DOES have ETOPS 330 required for the South Pacific crossing. If this true is there a chance AR to bring back the EZE-AKL-SYD route!?


Not sure, it will be empty One way EZE-AKL-PVG? It would probably fly way north so it’s close enough to IPC, PPT?

In terms of re opening the route with an A332 I wouldn’t think so myself given the route it would need to take and loaded it wouldn’t be viable over nearly 14hrs I don’t think.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:35 pm

x1234 wrote:
I read on the other thread that Aerolinas Argentinas is flying EZE-AKL-PVG to pick up medical supplies. So I wonder their A332 DOES have ETOPS 330 required for the South Pacific crossing. If this true is there a chance AR to bring back the EZE-AKL-SYD route!?


Don't think ETOPS applys to cargo only flights in most counties.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:02 am

Kiwiandrew wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Emirates latest updates

Both DXB-AKL and DXB-SYD-CHC will return 1 Jun 20, both with A380's
DXB-DPS-AKL cancelled till 1 Sep 20, previously was to return 1 Jul 20

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-11apr20/


Hmm, they say that now, but I will believe it when I see it.

If we manage to eradicate Covid-19 here in Aotearoa/New Zealand , then I foresee very strict quarantine/limitations for inbound passengers until an effective vaccine is developed/tested/widely available. That is not something I see happening within less than 3 months. If EK really want to run empty A380s to/from both AKL and CHC, I guess that is their business, but it seems both unwise and unlikely to me.


It's unlikely at this point I tend to agree. However of note

1. It's a complex task of when do you cancel flights out until. You need a booking window leading in before flights recommence otherwise you'll have weeks of <1% load. A shorter window than normal due to credits and existing customers who haven't cancelled.

I take this as a reassuring sign EK intend to return with both services.


2. While there will be really strict border controls for probably 2 years if not longer, there will come a point where other tools are used to asses the risk of visitors.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:13 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Who knows? Perhaps Emirates even know what they're doing?


TBH I don’t think quite a few airlines know what they are doing, however EK are being very optimistic with their overall schedule.


I read that with a sense of criticism in it (no offence if I've got that wrong) but to be fair most of this is beyond the airlines control and the situation has hundreds if not thousands of variables in it such as all the different individual border restrictions and transit rules, how each country is recovering or starting too and forecasting what their next measures will be on top of normal demand and passenger/cargo movement.

I doubt the airlines have any pandemic experts or medical scientists who trying to find a cure or vaccine that can give anything more than what the WHO or governments are.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:12 am

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/10/cargo-in-an-aircraft-cabin-youll-need-a-flight-attendant/?fbclid=IwAR1dSJfAXQ-h9RNggDSWClnb61DD3xegZjT_GZIt0O165e7HU4Urxlxd_fc#3e1e77cb6283

Forbes are running an interesting article today around carrying cargo within in the passenger cabins, and the implications of this.

To give a sense of the volume opportunity in the cabin, a passenger 777-200 can accommodate 10 standard pallets in the below-deck cargo compartments, but a freight 777-200 can hold a further 27 pallets on the main deck.

A passenger aircraft will not be able to take pallets on the main deck without extensive and long structural modifications, which Air New Zealand and others are not planning to do.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:38 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I don’t think quite a few airlines know what they are doing, however EK are being very optimistic with their overall schedule.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.

I agree. EK can always press "pause" or downgauge to a 77W should traffic not warrant it: experience shows that airlines are literally making decisions day-by-day. I really think it's way over the top to suggest that EK doesn't know what they're doing (as if A-netters are better placed to make these calls!). It's a strategy, and none of us have any idea as to what factors were considered when they came up with it.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
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qf789
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:28 am

The last LH 747 flight will depart CHC around 1800 tonight local time, in the meantime here is another photo

Image

https://twitter.com/CHC_Airport/status/ ... 03936?s=20
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NYKiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:37 am

Question, anyone know why.NZ use YVR as stop.over on repatriation flights....i can only think its bc the airport is.open and.can hold.passengers air side where as US require immigration and entry into the US even for transit
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:06 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Who knows? Perhaps Emirates even know what they're doing?


TBH I don’t think quite a few airlines know what they are doing, however EK are being very optimistic with their overall schedule.


I read that with a sense of criticism in it (no offence if I've got that wrong) but to be fair most of this is beyond the airlines control and the situation has hundreds if not thousands of variables in it such as all the different individual border restrictions and transit rules, how each country is recovering or starting too and forecasting what their next measures will be on top of normal demand and passenger/cargo movement.

I doubt the airlines have any pandemic experts or medical scientists who trying to find a cure or vaccine that can give anything more than what the WHO or governments are.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.


It wasn’t meant to come across that way, in the case of EK they are being very optimistic to think they will be able to open all routes in this timeframe, some for sure, they aren’t helped by their fleet mix of 77W/A380 though DXB is a huge hub and EK carry more International pax than anyone.

Airlines will have several scenarios for what might happen, are EK’s flights bookable? It’s interesting to me that they have such a schedule announced publicly. Most have a skeleton schedule until the end of June or so while QF are saying there is the possibility of not flying for a year, international I assume.

For sure no one knows exactly what the outcome will be, possibly even the medical experts but one thing is for sure travel and tourism is likely to take years to recover.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:15 am

DavidByrne wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I don’t think quite a few airlines know what they are doing, however EK are being very optimistic with their overall schedule.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.

I agree. EK can always press "pause" or downgauge to a 77W should traffic not warrant it: experience shows that airlines are literally making decisions day-by-day. I really think it's way over the top to suggest that EK doesn't know what they're doing (as if A-netters are better placed to make these calls!). It's a strategy, and none of us have any idea as to what factors were considered when they came up with it.



Like I said I’m the previous post I wasn’t trying to come across as an armchair CEO, I think many of us here tend to do that rightly or wrongly at times.

Sure they could change aircraft, I’m not sure the 77L can still do DXB-AKL with a viable load given it’s a 2 class configuration now 302 seats?

I would have thought when they get back into Australia NZ that the 77W with its Combi like ability would make a lot of sense. Even if AKL was for a while via Australia again on a 77W. They have the DPS 77W, I do wonder about the future of that route as it’s very seasonal market, East coast OZ is a 3hr flight away and they have flown OZ-AKL in the past so people would likely gladly just fly that sector again.

I’m actually somewhat surprised EK didn’t start a freighter service AKL-SYD/MEL/BNE given how much freight they apparently used to carry.
 
Gangurru
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:42 am

NYKiwi wrote:
Question, anyone know why.NZ use YVR as stop.over on repatriation flights....i can only think its bc the airport is.open and.can hold.passengers air side where as US require immigration and entry into the US even for transit


It might also be for crew safety on layovers. Canada’s COVID outbreak is far lower than the US.
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:03 am

Gangurru wrote:
NYKiwi wrote:
Question, anyone know why.NZ use YVR as stop.over on repatriation flights....i can only think its bc the airport is.open and.can hold.passengers air side where as US require immigration and entry into the US even for transit


It might also be for crew safety on layovers. Canada’s COVID outbreak is far lower than the US.


The New Zealand /Canada relationship is probably allot simpler to work on, the two counties have close relationship so probably likely willing to help each as required at the moment.

Is NZ taking passengers back to New Zealand?
 
Wellywood
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:33 am

Rather impressive runway pass of LH355 today leaving CHC on final repatriation flight. Runway pass at a mere 1200ft.
 
TEALflyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:01 am

qf789 wrote:
The last LH 747 flight will depart CHC around 1800 tonight local time, in the meantime here is another photo

Image

https://twitter.com/CHC_Airport/status/ ... 03936?s=20


LH CHC-BKK.jpg


After taking off from RWY02, flew a circuit over the central city, and then descending to about 1100ft for a final pass over RWY02 and turning to the WNW heading for BKK.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:09 pm

Random thought there is a thread over in tech ops on the 747SP 5th Podding. I asked there probably not the right place.

Did NZ have the ability to 5th pod on the 742 and the RR 744s? And did they ever use it if so?

I believe it was available on PW and RR 747 classics but only RR on the 744.

Pretty sure QF 5th podded a spare engine into AKL on a 743 for another AOG 743, in their latter years.

There are photos of QF and SA who seemed to use this feature the most.
 
x1234
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:16 pm

According to this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443797&start=250 AR (Aerolinas Argentinas) is going to fly EZE-AKL-PVG to pick up medical supplies. Their A332 doesn't have ETOPS 330 so its a more northernly track. If their A332 can do EZE-AKL with a A332 I really hope the EZE-AKL-SYD route returns in the near future.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:48 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Random thought there is a thread over in tech ops on the 747SP 5th Podding. I asked there probably not the right place.

Did NZ have the ability to 5th pod on the 742 and the RR 744s? And did they ever use it if so?

I believe it was available on PW and RR 747 classics but only RR on the 744.

Pretty sure QF 5th podded a spare engine into AKL on a 743 for another AOG 743, in their latter years.

There are photos of QF and SA who seemed to use this feature the most.


Yes. I flew AKL-SYD in June '86 (ZK-NZY) and there was a 5th RR engine on the port side.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:10 pm

x1234 wrote:
According to this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443797&start=250 AR (Aerolinas Argentinas) is going to fly EZE-AKL-PVG to pick up medical supplies. Their A332 doesn't have ETOPS 330 so its a more northernly track. If their A332 can do EZE-AKL with a A332 I really hope the EZE-AKL-SYD route returns in the near future.


I’m guessing it will be empty on that leg? Which is 2hrs longer 13:40 than the return AKL-EZE 11:50. I have got no idea what MTOW these aircraft are I think some are brand new while others are 2nd or 3rd hand and quite a bit older and probably less capable.

Given the nature of this route I’m not sure any A332 would be able to do EZE-AKL with a viable load.

The route was dropped when the A342 retired in 2014 although AKL was dropped first in 2012 and SYD was served non stop. There was often talk that it was one of their better performing routes and that it may return one day, maybe wishful thinking on their part but maybe an A330NEO or A359 one day?

They certainly have a much younger overall fleet now than they did with the A340s, 747s and 737 classics.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:11 pm

eta unknown wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Random thought there is a thread over in tech ops on the 747SP 5th Podding. I asked there probably not the right place.

Did NZ have the ability to 5th pod on the 742 and the RR 744s? And did they ever use it if so?

I believe it was available on PW and RR 747 classics but only RR on the 744.

Pretty sure QF 5th podded a spare engine into AKL on a 743 for another AOG 743, in their latter years.

There are photos of QF and SA who seemed to use this feature the most.


Yes. I flew AKL-SYD in June '86 (ZK-NZY) and there was a 5th RR engine on the port side.


Interesting and good to know, thanks.
 
AKL321NX
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:20 pm

Apropos to nothing, the last week have helped me appreciate the new Lufthansa livery - the old one is classic but looks incredibly dated compared to the new one.
 
zkeoj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:02 pm

AKL321NX wrote:
Apropos to nothing, the last week have helped me appreciate the new Lufthansa livery - the old one is classic but looks incredibly dated compared to the new one.


Interesting observation! When they revealed the new livery I was not a big fan either. As a German, you were so used to the classic yellow, and it was almost incomprehesible that LH would ever got rid of it. But very quickly I changed my mind: Every time I see and old and a new liveried aircraft next to each other, it indeed shows that the old livery is very dated, and that the new one looks like what they said it would: Professional, business like, classy. I like it a lot now! And they still use yellow in the CI - just not on the outside of the aircraft...

Sorry, it is indeed tangential to an NZ thread, but given the recent flights to AKL and CHC it should be ok here ;-)

On another note, I found the extra rounds and fly-bys a very nice gesture, and I have lots of (totally non-aviation) FB friends who posted about these, including photos. Little gestures sometimes can go a long way :-)
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:02 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

TBH I don’t think quite a few airlines know what they are doing, however EK are being very optimistic with their overall schedule.


I read that with a sense of criticism in it (no offence if I've got that wrong) but to be fair most of this is beyond the airlines control and the situation has hundreds if not thousands of variables in it such as all the different individual border restrictions and transit rules, how each country is recovering or starting too and forecasting what their next measures will be on top of normal demand and passenger/cargo movement.

I doubt the airlines have any pandemic experts or medical scientists who trying to find a cure or vaccine that can give anything more than what the WHO or governments are.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.


It wasn’t meant to come across that way, in the case of EK they are being very optimistic to think they will be able to open all routes in this timeframe, some for sure, they aren’t helped by their fleet mix of 77W/A380 though DXB is a huge hub and EK carry more International pax than anyone.

Airlines will have several scenarios for what might happen, are EK’s flights bookable? It’s interesting to me that they have such a schedule announced publicly. Most have a skeleton schedule until the end of June or so while QF are saying there is the possibility of not flying for a year, international I assume.

For sure no one knows exactly what the outcome will be, possibly even the medical experts but one thing is for sure travel and tourism is likely to take years to recover.


You're bang on with airlines having several scenarios and it's highly unlikely our borders will be open to European countries in July. Let's be realistic, that's almost a guarantee

What I'm surprised by is the word daily. I'd have thought X number per week would be a starting point but that's not the EK model is it. It's also not known what's happening to those booked for travel in Jul/Aug/Sep etc. Are they cancelling early/now or waiting on a "policy".

As for the schedule being announced publicly, it's not like they've come out with a press release or marketing campaign. It seems they've just updated the GDS and 3rd party groups such as routesonline capture the changes and publishes them.

The only media release I can find from EK is this
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... uspension/

I'd say EK is just working on a best case scenario for a starting point with knowledge it'll likely be a sliding date and are updating their system at set reassessment points
 
DavidJ08
Posts: 169
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:49 pm

zkncj wrote:
Gangurru wrote:
NYKiwi wrote:
Question, anyone know why.NZ use YVR as stop.over on repatriation flights....i can only think its bc the airport is.open and.can hold.passengers air side where as US require immigration and entry into the US even for transit


It might also be for crew safety on layovers. Canada’s COVID outbreak is far lower than the US.


The New Zealand /Canada relationship is probably allot simpler to work on, the two counties have close relationship so probably likely willing to help each as required at the moment.

Is NZ taking passengers back to New Zealand?

Keep in mind the US border restrictions - if they apply to air crew, then the crew won't be able to get back into the US after they do the FRA leg. I think airside transit would also have been a large part of the consideration.

Other things not yet mentioned: both LH and VA repatriation flights are using an intermediary port normally served by the airline, where I assume appropriate technical services and crew rest facilities exist (HKG for VA, and BKK for LH), as well as maximising existing overflight rights (NZ's YVR-FRA route uses largely the same set of overflight rights they'd have from LAX-LHR, LH already has overflight rights over Central Asia for BKK).

I recall an article either on Stuff or the Herald that NZers have been denied access to the return legs of the repatriation flights.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:56 pm

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

I read that with a sense of criticism in it (no offence if I've got that wrong) but to be fair most of this is beyond the airlines control and the situation has hundreds if not thousands of variables in it such as all the different individual border restrictions and transit rules, how each country is recovering or starting too and forecasting what their next measures will be on top of normal demand and passenger/cargo movement.

I doubt the airlines have any pandemic experts or medical scientists who trying to find a cure or vaccine that can give anything more than what the WHO or governments are.

I'd say they're just trying to save as much as money as they possible can but also preparing themselves for hitting the go button almost immediately if not slightly before things start to move again.


It wasn’t meant to come across that way, in the case of EK they are being very optimistic to think they will be able to open all routes in this timeframe, some for sure, they aren’t helped by their fleet mix of 77W/A380 though DXB is a huge hub and EK carry more International pax than anyone.

Airlines will have several scenarios for what might happen, are EK’s flights bookable? It’s interesting to me that they have such a schedule announced publicly. Most have a skeleton schedule until the end of June or so while QF are saying there is the possibility of not flying for a year, international I assume.

For sure no one knows exactly what the outcome will be, possibly even the medical experts but one thing is for sure travel and tourism is likely to take years to recover.


You're bang on with airlines having several scenarios and it's highly unlikely our borders will be open to European countries in July. Let's be realistic, that's almost a guarantee

What I'm surprised by is the word daily. I'd have thought X number per week would be a starting point but that's not the EK model is it. It's also not known what's happening to those booked for travel in Jul/Aug/Sep etc. Are they cancelling early/now or waiting on a "policy".

As for the schedule being announced publicly, it's not like they've come out with a press release or marketing campaign. It seems they've just updated the GDS and 3rd party groups such as routesonline capture the changes and publishes them.

The only media release I can find from EK is this
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... uspension/

I'd say EK is just working on a best case scenario for a starting point with knowledge it'll likely be a sliding date and are updating their system at set reassessment points


EK operate in waves, with 4 wave banks throughout the day, so it might be reasonable to operate 1 bank through the hub probably the early morning arrivals mid mornings departures which is where the AKL and most Australia flights connect to Europe, some destinations get 2 flights in that 1 wave like say LHR, with most flights on 77Ws to uplift the most freight. I just can’t see what they will be able to do with 115 A380s and 8 more to come, the oldest near second heavy checks will go I think and the rest will rotate in and out of storage or as heavy maintenance comes around they will store them instead. Anyway that’s way off topic but an interesting discussion.

That’s where it will be interesting to see what NZ do as the US particularly gets back on its feet. I would imagine capturing transit pax will be important if they are allowed to even do it with the world the way it is now. I think they were getting there before Covid 19, in moving all the Asian flights to a morning bank, hopefully PVG might have some slots available now to retime that flight. With the Australian morning bank timed for the US connections as it was. On a much smaller scale to start With and building as countries get back in their feet.

It will be interesting to see the fleet and destination mix, I think keeping aircraft in the air as much as possible.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:08 am

zkeoj wrote:
AKL321NX wrote:
Apropos to nothing, the last week have helped me appreciate the new Lufthansa livery - the old one is classic but looks incredibly dated compared to the new one.


Interesting observation! When they revealed the new livery I was not a big fan either. As a German, you were so used to the classic yellow, and it was almost incomprehesible that LH would ever got rid of it. But very quickly I changed my mind: Every time I see and old and a new liveried aircraft next to each other, it indeed shows that the old livery is very dated, and that the new one looks like what they said it would: Professional, business like, classy. I like it a lot now! And they still use yellow in the CI - just not on the outside of the aircraft...

Sorry, it is indeed tangential to an NZ thread, but given the recent flights to AKL and CHC it should be ok here ;-)

On another note, I found the extra rounds and fly-bys a very nice gesture, and I have lots of (totally non-aviation) FB friends who posted about these, including photos. Little gestures sometimes can go a long way :-)

I agree, the new Lufthansa colours work very well. Its the same with a lot of livery changes - once people get over the initial shock of the change from the familiar, they can then consider them rationally.

Speaking of Lufthansa, in putting together threads on the A380s and 747-400s still in service, 4 of the 9 A380s and 5 of the 14 747-400s still in service at the moment - Lufthansa's entire active fleet of such aircraft - have flown through New Zealand in the last week.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:48 am

Here is an interesting opinion piece on the future aviation outlook. Both Qantas and Air NZ are doing there own approach to survive:

Will Air NZ and Qantas be winners, losers or merely survivors?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinio ... incpvrvTV0
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:08 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

It wasn’t meant to come across that way, in the case of EK they are being very optimistic to think they will be able to open all routes in this timeframe, some for sure, they aren’t helped by their fleet mix of 77W/A380 though DXB is a huge hub and EK carry more International pax than anyone.

Airlines will have several scenarios for what might happen, are EK’s flights bookable? It’s interesting to me that they have such a schedule announced publicly. Most have a skeleton schedule until the end of June or so while QF are saying there is the possibility of not flying for a year, international I assume.

For sure no one knows exactly what the outcome will be, possibly even the medical experts but one thing is for sure travel and tourism is likely to take years to recover.


You're bang on with airlines having several scenarios and it's highly unlikely our borders will be open to European countries in July. Let's be realistic, that's almost a guarantee

What I'm surprised by is the word daily. I'd have thought X number per week would be a starting point but that's not the EK model is it. It's also not known what's happening to those booked for travel in Jul/Aug/Sep etc. Are they cancelling early/now or waiting on a "policy".

As for the schedule being announced publicly, it's not like they've come out with a press release or marketing campaign. It seems they've just updated the GDS and 3rd party groups such as routesonline capture the changes and publishes them.

The only media release I can find from EK is this
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... uspension/

I'd say EK is just working on a best case scenario for a starting point with knowledge it'll likely be a sliding date and are updating their system at set reassessment points


EK operate in waves, with 4 wave banks throughout the day, so it might be reasonable to operate 1 bank through the hub probably the early morning arrivals mid mornings departures which is where the AKL and most Australia flights connect to Europe, some destinations get 2 flights in that 1 wave like say LHR, with most flights on 77Ws to uplift the most freight. I just can’t see what they will be able to do with 115 A380s and 8 more to come, the oldest near second heavy checks will go I think and the rest will rotate in and out of storage or as heavy maintenance comes around they will store them instead. Anyway that’s way off topic but an interesting discussion.

That’s where it will be interesting to see what NZ do as the US particularly gets back on its feet. I would imagine capturing transit pax will be important if they are allowed to even do it with the world the way it is now. I think they were getting there before Covid 19, in moving all the Asian flights to a morning bank, hopefully PVG might have some slots available now to retime that flight. With the Australian morning bank timed for the US connections as it was. On a much smaller scale to start With and building as countries get back in their feet.

It will be interesting to see the fleet and destination mix, I think keeping aircraft in the air as much as possible.


I wasn't referring to the "banks" at DXB. I was implying EK don't really waste time with flights on odd days etc, they typically go in with daily or more.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7460
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:18 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

You're bang on with airlines having several scenarios and it's highly unlikely our borders will be open to European countries in July. Let's be realistic, that's almost a guarantee

What I'm surprised by is the word daily. I'd have thought X number per week would be a starting point but that's not the EK model is it. It's also not known what's happening to those booked for travel in Jul/Aug/Sep etc. Are they cancelling early/now or waiting on a "policy".

As for the schedule being announced publicly, it's not like they've come out with a press release or marketing campaign. It seems they've just updated the GDS and 3rd party groups such as routesonline capture the changes and publishes them.

The only media release I can find from EK is this
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... uspension/

I'd say EK is just working on a best case scenario for a starting point with knowledge it'll likely be a sliding date and are updating their system at set reassessment points


EK operate in waves, with 4 wave banks throughout the day, so it might be reasonable to operate 1 bank through the hub probably the early morning arrivals mid mornings departures which is where the AKL and most Australia flights connect to Europe, some destinations get 2 flights in that 1 wave like say LHR, with most flights on 77Ws to uplift the most freight. I just can’t see what they will be able to do with 115 A380s and 8 more to come, the oldest near second heavy checks will go I think and the rest will rotate in and out of storage or as heavy maintenance comes around they will store them instead. Anyway that’s way off topic but an interesting discussion.

That’s where it will be interesting to see what NZ do as the US particularly gets back on its feet. I would imagine capturing transit pax will be important if they are allowed to even do it with the world the way it is now. I think they were getting there before Covid 19, in moving all the Asian flights to a morning bank, hopefully PVG might have some slots available now to retime that flight. With the Australian morning bank timed for the US connections as it was. On a much smaller scale to start With and building as countries get back in their feet.

It will be interesting to see the fleet and destination mix, I think keeping aircraft in the air as much as possible.


I wasn't referring to the "banks" at DXB. I was implying EK don't really waste time with flights on odd days etc, they typically go in with daily or more.


Sure but the way EK operate is in waves with as many flights connecting through each bank with several destinations having flights in 4 banks, sometimes 2 flights in some like LHR which is 6 daily A380s.

But yes they don’t do sub daily often at all and now don’t have smaller aircraft where it could help in these times, you do get the odd one where they might be 11 weekly, DPS-AKL was 4-5 weekly for a while. DPS has other flights.
 
marcelh
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:23 am

A few minutes ago Lufthansa A380 D-AiMN flight 357 took off from AKL. The last repatriation flight from LH to Germany?
 
zkncj
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:27 am

marcelh wrote:
A few minutes ago Lufthansa A380 D-AiMN flight 357 took off from AKL. The last repatriation flight from LH to Germany?


It also did an low pass over the AKL City again - https://www.flightradar24.com/DLH357/245a710c

Was nice to hear an aircraft fly pat Mount Eden again.
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:29 pm

If anybody has seen the latest UAL schedule update on Airlineroute it is very ambitious indeed and flies in the face of strategies being employed down under by QF and NZ, and many airlines overall, as does the latest from EK. Can anybody explain this?
Plane mad!
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:13 pm

All I can see is San Francisco to Auckland service resumption 21 May 3 weekly with Boeing 777-200ER
Nothing unusual about it to me. Other airlines have returned to AKL too although on a reduced schedule Korean Air on 3 weekly 789 for instance.
 
ZK-NBT
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:02 pm

NZ516 wrote:
All I can see is San Francisco to Auckland service resumption 21 May 3 weekly with Boeing 777-200ER
Nothing unusual about it to me. Other airlines have returned to AKL too although on a reduced schedule Korean Air on 3 weekly 789 for instance.


He’s talking about the overall schedule not just AKL.

I don’t think any of these carriers will be carrying PAX for sometime, so just freight. Pity UA don’t have any dedicated freighters at all and most carriers have bigger markets to fly freighters into. Australia is getting a lot particularly SYD extra DHL, Kalitta, UPS, Atlas etc.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:04 am

https://www.facebook.com/GermanEmbassyW ... 8139520231

German Embassy Wellington

1t5Sp fronsedofrhrstedr · Public
Almost 10,000 German and other European travelers back home in Europe: 25th German repatriation flight left New Zealand today
Today, the 25th German repatriation flight from New Zealand to Germany took off from Auckland to Frankfurt am Main (Germany). It brought the number of passengers repatriated to Europe close to 10,000.
Today’s flight was the last Lufthansa flight from New Zealand within the German government’s repatriation program announced by Federal Foreign Minister Heiko Maas on 16 March 2020. Like all Lufthansa repatriation flights from Auckland, it was carried out with an Airbus A380. The Lufthansa flights from Christchurch were carried out by Boeing 747.
The very last German repatriation flight will leave Christchurch tomorrow Tuesday 14 April 2020 at 2:45pm and will be operated by Air New Zealand.
In only 12 consecutive days between 3 April 2020 and 14 April 2020 a total of 25 German repatriation flights left New Zealand, including seven Airbus A380, seven Boeing 747 and fourteen Boeing 777. A first flight had already left on 28 March 2020.
The repatriation flights from New Zealand to Germany represent the largest single part of the entire German repatriation program.
In his speech at Auckland Airport, German Ambassador Stefan Krawielicki called it the „largest repatriation air bridge in German history“. „If one were to add up all the kilometers flown per passenger, the total would be approximately 180 million kilometers.“
Several repatriation flights received special permissions to fly an extra loop over Auckland and Christchurch to thank the people of New Zealand for their hospitality. As a gesture of gratitude, the Lufthansa captain of the last Lufthansa-flight out of Christchurch on 12 April 2020 even baptised his previously nameless Boeing 747 aircraft in „City of Christchurch“. Many Lufthansa captains also released „jumpseats“ in their aircrafts to allow more stand-by passengers on their return flights to Germany.
Most of the passengers on the repatriation flights were tourists like backpackers, families on parental leave with small children and work and holiday visa holders. There was also a significant number of underage exchange students from Germany. Most of the passengers were German citizens, but also other EU citizens and citizens from Israel, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Great Britain were taken back to Europe by the planes chartered by the German government. On the very first Lufthansa flight alone, citizens from 23 different countries were on board.
This enormous team effort was an excellent example on how closely and successfully Germany and New Zealand can work together. It was only possible because of the extraordinary support of all the people and agencies involved. The German Embassy Wellington is therefore particularly grateful to the German-New Zealand Chamber of Commerce, who reinforced the Embassy team with six extra staff members at the airports in Auckland and Christchurch. Furthermore, the Embassy is very grateful to the EU Delegation to New Zealand, Air New Zealand, German Lufthansa, Auckland International Airport, Christchurch International Airport and the respective ground handling staff, Aviation Security, NZ Police, NZ Customs, Immigration NZ, Christchurch City Council and Christchurch Emergency Operations Centre and, of course, to the New Zealand government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. In addition, the German Embassy is also grateful to the governments of Canada, Japan and Thailand for allowing the repatriation flights to land for technical stopovers in Vancouver, Tokyo and Bangkok.
Last but not least, the German Embassy would like to thank Sky Tower in Auckland and Auckland City Council for bidding a special farewell to the last repatriation flight out of Auckland today by lightening up the Sky Tower in the colours of the German national flag.
Vielen Dank und auf Wiedersehen!
Auckland/Christchurch, 13 April 2020
For more photos here : https://wellington.diplo.de/


I thought this line was quite interesting.
The repatriation flights from New Zealand to Germany represent the largest single part of the entire German repatriation program.


We have a lot of Germans here.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1552
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:34 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

EK operate in waves, with 4 wave banks throughout the day, so it might be reasonable to operate 1 bank through the hub probably the early morning arrivals mid mornings departures which is where the AKL and most Australia flights connect to Europe, some destinations get 2 flights in that 1 wave like say LHR, with most flights on 77Ws to uplift the most freight. I just can’t see what they will be able to do with 115 A380s and 8 more to come, the oldest near second heavy checks will go I think and the rest will rotate in and out of storage or as heavy maintenance comes around they will store them instead. Anyway that’s way off topic but an interesting discussion.

That’s where it will be interesting to see what NZ do as the US particularly gets back on its feet. I would imagine capturing transit pax will be important if they are allowed to even do it with the world the way it is now. I think they were getting there before Covid 19, in moving all the Asian flights to a morning bank, hopefully PVG might have some slots available now to retime that flight. With the Australian morning bank timed for the US connections as it was. On a much smaller scale to start With and building as countries get back in their feet.

It will be interesting to see the fleet and destination mix, I think keeping aircraft in the air as much as possible.


I wasn't referring to the "banks" at DXB. I was implying EK don't really waste time with flights on odd days etc, they typically go in with daily or more.


Sure but the way EK operate is in waves with as many flights connecting through each bank with several destinations having flights in 4 banks, sometimes 2 flights in some like LHR which is 6 daily A380s.

But yes they don’t do sub daily often at all and now don’t have smaller aircraft where it could help in these times, you do get the odd one where they might be 11 weekly, DPS-AKL was 4-5 weekly for a while. DPS has other flights.


It's completely irrelevant. The "banks" would relate to the timing of the flights whereas I'm saying it's interesting to see EK looking to return daily vs Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun etc.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:05 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

I wasn't referring to the "banks" at DXB. I was implying EK don't really waste time with flights on odd days etc, they typically go in with daily or more.


Sure but the way EK operate is in waves with as many flights connecting through each bank with several destinations having flights in 4 banks, sometimes 2 flights in some like LHR which is 6 daily A380s.

But yes they don’t do sub daily often at all and now don’t have smaller aircraft where it could help in these times, you do get the odd one where they might be 11 weekly, DPS-AKL was 4-5 weekly for a while. DPS has other flights.


It's completely irrelevant. The "banks" would relate to the timing of the flights whereas I'm saying it's interesting to see EK looking to return daily vs Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun etc.


I wouldn’t say completely irrelevant, EK rely on connecting pax that’s what their business revolves around. They need the banks for this, getting 1 bank up and going might be a realistic goal in the next what 3, 6, 9 months? Some flights could be less than daily.
 
NZ6
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:52 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

Sure but the way EK operate is in waves with as many flights connecting through each bank with several destinations having flights in 4 banks, sometimes 2 flights in some like LHR which is 6 daily A380s.

But yes they don’t do sub daily often at all and now don’t have smaller aircraft where it could help in these times, you do get the odd one where they might be 11 weekly, DPS-AKL was 4-5 weekly for a while. DPS has other flights.


It's completely irrelevant. The "banks" would relate to the timing of the flights whereas I'm saying it's interesting to see EK looking to return daily vs Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun etc.


I wouldn’t say completely irrelevant, EK rely on connecting pax that’s what their business revolves around. They need the banks for this, getting 1 bank up and going might be a realistic goal in the next what 3, 6, 9 months? Some flights could be less than daily.


You don't need to be daily for the "bank" model to work. The "banks" are around all flights coming in via a small window and connecting to a window of outbound flights. They do this twice a day.

AKL could be recommenced to connect with these banks, 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 times per week. What I've said is it's a good sign EK want to return daily but added doing things half-assed isn't the EK model in other words
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:01 am

Image
Source: https://twitter.com/CamWallace_NZ/status/1249875939166568450

Hopefully NZE role as an freighter might go better than its history as an passenger aircraft.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:40 pm

The only story I know about NZD is it flew lots of horses around and there were severe performance issues with the aircraft- apparently several tons of horse urine went undetected which threw all the weight calculations off.
 
caribbeanSwag
Posts: 15
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:57 pm

Air NZ sure went through a rapid US expansion last few years. You guys think Newark will be their last near future expansion? With Los Angeles, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago and New York, it seems stable as can be.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:56 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

It's completely irrelevant. The "banks" would relate to the timing of the flights whereas I'm saying it's interesting to see EK looking to return daily vs Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun etc.


I wouldn’t say completely irrelevant, EK rely on connecting pax that’s what their business revolves around. They need the banks for this, getting 1 bank up and going might be a realistic goal in the next what 3, 6, 9 months? Some flights could be less than daily.


You don't need to be daily for the "bank" model to work. The "banks" are around all flights coming in via a small window and connecting to a window of outbound flights. They do this twice a day.

AKL could be recommenced to connect with these banks, 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 times per week. What I've said is it's a good sign EK want to return daily but added doing things half-assed isn't the EK model in other words


We got there eventually, EK don’t have enough smaller aircraft to keep frequency on alit if routes so they will just use what they have 77W/A380, I agree AKL and many other destinations could be served less than daily initially but as you say EK don’t do things by halves.

EK need the feed as there’s not a lot of O&D to DXB, well there is but it will stay 2-3 days similar to SIN.
 
Qantas59
Posts: 185
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:57 am

Per DC-8 Digest site, ZK-NZD retired from passenger service Feb, 1981 and operated as a pure freighter 8 Oct 1981 / 26 Sep 1987.
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:01 am

caribbeanSwag wrote:
Air NZ sure went through a rapid US expansion last few years. You guys think Newark will be their last near future expansion? With Los Angeles, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago and New York, it seems stable as can be.


I wouldn’t bet on EWR starting anytime soon, and I personally can’t see anymore expansion to the US or anywhere anytime soon. Add in HNL, YVR, EZE aswell.

Transit pax is going to be interesting for a while, how they get around holding PAX anywhere in the world, interesting for a smaller carrier like NZ and possibly even more so for the like of SQ, EK, QR.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:26 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

I wouldn’t say completely irrelevant, EK rely on connecting pax that’s what their business revolves around. They need the banks for this, getting 1 bank up and going might be a realistic goal in the next what 3, 6, 9 months? Some flights could be less than daily.


You don't need to be daily for the "bank" model to work. The "banks" are around all flights coming in via a small window and connecting to a window of outbound flights. They do this twice a day.

AKL could be recommenced to connect with these banks, 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 times per week. What I've said is it's a good sign EK want to return daily but added doing things half-assed isn't the EK model in other words


We got there eventually, EK don’t have enough smaller aircraft to keep frequency on alit if routes so they will just use what they have 77W/A380, I agree AKL and many other destinations could be served less than daily initially but as you say EK don’t do things by halves.

EK need the feed as there’s not a lot of O&D to DXB, well there is but it will stay 2-3 days similar to SIN.


Not sure if we have..EK operates a hub and spoke model. While daily is a massive advantage given the scale of the impact caused by this thing they could still easily go 3 to 5 times per week into those banks while the market recovers.

It's just down to how EK do things which is very much an all in approach.

It's great for the public and like I said it's a really positive sign.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:51 am

caribbeanSwag wrote:
Air NZ sure went through a rapid US expansion last few years. You guys think Newark will be their last near future expansion? With Los Angeles, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago and New York, it seems stable as can be.

New York might not happen for some time now.
But in terms of future destinations, the only potential options are DEN, SEA, ATL, LAS, PDX. Other destinations nearby might include YYZ or YYC. Possibly MEX (but does have hot n high issues - as does DEN).
Personally I don’t see LAS as viable (too close to LAX and no connecting traffic). ATL is a DL hub. PDX too small. So DEN or SEA. As mentioned DEN has Altitude and sometimes hot issues but it is central and has both O&D as well as connecting traffic. SEA on the other hand is relatively easy to service, has a large wealthy O&D market (as well as overflow from YVR).
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
caribbeanSwag
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:08 am

Zkpilot wrote:
caribbeanSwag wrote:
Air NZ sure went through a rapid US expansion last few years. You guys think Newark will be their last near future expansion? With Los Angeles, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago and New York, it seems stable as can be.

New York might not happen for some time now.
But in terms of future destinations, the only potential options are DEN, SEA, ATL, LAS, PDX. Other destinations nearby might include YYZ or YYC. Possibly MEX (but does have hot n high issues - as does DEN).
Personally I don’t see LAS as viable (too close to LAX and no connecting traffic). ATL is a DL hub. PDX too small. So DEN or SEA. As mentioned DEN has Altitude and sometimes hot issues but it is central and has both O&D as well as connecting traffic. SEA on the other hand is relatively easy to service, has a large wealthy O&D market (as well as overflow from YVR).


SEA is a possibility. DEN, I could maybe see. Possibly even LAS. I don't believe any of these 3 (except maybe SEA) possibly happening, but there's a wild chance they may. ATL and PDX, there's no way I could see happening. IAH handles ATL's region, and without a Star Alliance hub in ATL, there's no reason to do this. PDX is not only too small, it has LAX and SFO have the west coast on lock and if they expand in the northwest, SEA would come first anyway.
 
Kiwiandrew
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - April 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:29 am

Fair use excerpt : "An Air New Zealand 777-300ER is now flying a specialist team of five engineers from Frankfurt to Auckland, via Vancouver, to fix burst pipes under the Mount Albert volcano."

Interesting use of the return leg of the repat flight
https://australianaviation.com.au/2020/ ... w-zealand/

Apart from being a typical Jafa and not knowing there was a Mt Albert in Wellington, I would have to assume these engineers are being paid a pretty penny, uh, Euro - they will come here and go straight into two weeks quarantine in AKL, then travel down to Welly to do their job, then when they finish, they can't have any real idea of how/when they will get back home

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