Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
moa999
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:06 am

SCFlyer wrote:
SQ has a technical "Government Bailout".
SIA raised $14B from their state owned parent company Tesamek. They also have a $6B loan from the Singaporean banks to ride out the current crisis.


Has the Sing Govt provided any assistance to that other majority Singapore owned and Singapore flagged airline.

Got a silver painted body and an orange star on the tail.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:16 am

This is getting ridiculous- there's no pint following the VA developments on this thread. In the space of a few minutes we've gone from SQ/EY agree not to move on VA to SQ to take control of VA- which I highly doubt would be allowed if SQ just got bailed out by their govt.

As for the QLD govt. throwing money at VA- well they also throw money at QF for their BNE maintenance base.
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 1883
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:19 am

a36001 wrote:
Sorry but how is this possible when the very airline this thread is basically about has asked the federal government for money and now a state government has come up with a plan to help the said airline. We might as well stop the thread here and discuss daffodils!


As long as it related to aviation you are free to discuss it here, but when it is veering off, like for example "this is only being done to attract voters" this is the wrong thread for further discussion, hence my reminder.
 
SYDSpotter
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:26 am

eta unknown wrote:
This is getting ridiculous- there's no pint following the VA developments on this thread. In the space of a few minutes we've gone from SQ/EY agree not to move on VA to SQ to take control of VA- which I highly doubt would be allowed if SQ just got bailed out by their govt.


Well they're not really developments, just lots of speculation being thrown around. And given the current environment with everyone in isolation with nothing better to do, speculation is going to be rife.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
qf002
Posts: 3669
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:41 am

While I don't agree with the idea of a bail out for VA, I do think the Federal Government should be doing more to ensure that whatever does happen to VA is a positive transformation and in the long-term national interest. The last thing we need as a country and economy is for VA to end up falling to pieces a year or two after the initial crisis ends.

In particular, some of the parties that are apparently interested have very poor cultures around safety and quality. I think this is also a good opportunity to dismantle the sneaky VAH vs VAI setup - if the new company/group is not majority Australian owned then they should not have access to Australian bilateral agreements.
 
Qf648
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:13 am

SYDSpotter wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:

So three weeks ago the Govt was so concerned about 'the Chinese' snapping up distressed Aussie companies, but now it would be okay if the Chinese snapped up a distressed Virgin Australia?

I suppose the Govt's justification would be that this keeps a second airline flying, and they could also crow about having been proven right that there was a 'market solution' out there, but a buyout by a Chinese airline or conglomerate would certainly be super-controversial, as would the Govt permitting it.


I think the Government said that there would only be increased scrutiny of any takeovers of those Australian companies who were actually profitable, so VA wouldn't fall under that category :duck:

But in all seriousness, a Chinese takeover of an airline is going to be significantly less controversial than say a Chinese takeover of a manufacturer or those companies that own Australian property. The fear (rightly or wrongly) is that a Chinese takeover of a manufacturer would mean those manufactured goods (e.g. baby milk formulation) would be diverted entirely for export. Or in the case of Australian property (infrastructure assets, property, ports etc), the argument is that Chinese companies are buying up at assets that don't reflect true value.

But in the case of VA, they are a service provider (i.e. fly people from place A to place B), this is not something you can 'export' per se and even if the company decided to send all of VA's planes to China, those planes can easily be replaced, whereas it is difficult to replace a gas pipeline for example.

In the longer term, a hypothetical Chinese takeover of VA which results in prolonged price war that results in a severely weakened QF would then start be to be controversial, because there would be an argument that QF provides a strategic civilian airlift capability in any times of crisis (e.g. COVID 19 flights), whereas there would be an argument made that a Chinese owned airline would be a less reliable source.

Edit- One of the complications of a full takeover of VA is that domestic operations are fair game, but if a foreign company wanted to acquire VA with the hope of starting international operations, then they'd need to comply with the requirement to have at least 50% of the international business being Australian owned. This could only be done if they left the current opaque VA International structure as is, but hard to know how that would look like given the initial VA International structure is complex at best.



China southern won't get VA. The uproar will be too much.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:55 am

Uproar??? Looking at the optics with VA's present financial state any investor is welcome- and anyone stupid enough to assume the $5B debt will get the Order of Australia medal.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:58 am

Just a query to the mods: in this current environment, where governments are desperately trying to find a way to save their respective airlines, isn't EVERYTHING right now about politics? Where ownership of VA in particular is being discussed and government-supported airlines from authoritarian states are prime candidates to fund a reboot, how can it not be political? In all seriousness, guidance from the mods on what aspects of VA's future (if any) can actually be discussed here would be very much appreciated.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
Razza74
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:17 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:30 am

Just a thought

How about the whole VA falling apart and resurrection be moved to a purpose thread, I know there is not much happening due to COVID-19 but there seems to be enough discussion to warrant it's own thread

Regards
Reinaard
Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
 
Morrofinch
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:40 am

All the chatter is really pointing to a a Chinese takeover through China Eastern before Voluntary Administration. Nanshan also will maintain a minor (read around 13-17 percent) stake under this proposal. If you believe Skynews the Airline will be called Australian Eastern Airways.

The Govt will be give a "look the other way" (well not literally, through laws) when it comes to any foreign ownership rules for all the bureaucratic issues.

Apparently Scurrah and Bryan are trying to seek a contract reassurance that minimal jobs will go offshore to China (seems like he is trying to protect his staff) as well as a few government demands such as flying at least 80% capacity of pre Covid19 capacity in 2021-2023 and a maintaining of regional routes. Liu (China Eastern CEO) is keen on having "Australian Eastern Airways" having a, to quote SKYNews, "HUGE" presence in Asia including giving them there A330s as they take in A350S. The MAX order will stand under this proposal and the B777 sold off/terminated.

Seems like this is most likely scenario, well at least according to Sky and they have a pretty good track record at this sort of stuff. And would be this such a bad thing? A cash heavy owner who will invest a lot seems like what VA may need. Probably would spell the end of Scurrah (His vision seems to cut) and cause the return of someone who shares a similar vision to that of JB
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11128
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:42 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Just a query to the mods: in this current environment, where governments are desperately trying to find a way to save their respective airlines, isn't EVERYTHING right now about politics? Where ownership of VA in particular is being discussed and government-supported airlines from authoritarian states are prime candidates to fund a reboot, how can it not be political? In all seriousness, guidance from the mods on what aspects of VA's future (if any) can actually be discussed here would be very much appreciated.


As per forum rules

Political Discussion
1. As some aviation topics relate to politics, political statements related to aviation are permitted, provided the political discussion is merely to provide context to the discussion. Political commentary without aviation context, with the purpose of being inflammatory or injecting political bias, or comments which are fundamentally a political discussion will be removed in all aviation forums. Political commentary must serve a purpose in aviation forums.
2. Political discussion unrelated to aviation, or aviation topics primarily rooted in politics are limited to the Non-Aviation Forum.


In a nutshell, keep your comments on topic and relating aviation, those comments that have been removed havent been related to aviation, or the discussion in general. Instead they have been political in nature unrelated to the discussion, comments such as a government shoring up votes or general comments about the Chinese government are not related to the discussion and can lead to the thread going off track quickly and in same cases other users find these comments offensive

I suggest that if you would like to discuss this further either start a thread in Site Related or email us [email protected]
Forum Moderator
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:45 am

moa999 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
SQ has a technical "Government Bailout".
SIA raised $14B from their state owned parent company Tesamek. They also have a $6B loan from the Singaporean banks to ride out the current crisis.


Has the Sing Govt provided any assistance to that other majority Singapore owned and Singapore flagged airline.

Got a silver painted body and an orange star on the tail.

Aim't that particular airline is literally 100% foreign controlled with 49% stake controlled by QF and the other 51% as a setup to bypass relevant Singaporean legislation?

When SQ itself is 56% owned by Temasek their ability to gather government assistance is not surprised in any way IMO.

eta unknown wrote:
This is getting ridiculous- there's no pint following the VA developments on this thread. In the space of a few minutes we've gone from SQ/EY agree not to move on VA to SQ to take control of VA- which I highly doubt would be allowed if SQ just got bailed out by their govt.

As for the QLD govt. throwing money at VA- well they also throw money at QF for their BNE maintenance base.

In one way I agree but in the other I think this is as much news in Australian aviation sector right now (about the live or death of VA) - or otherwise we'll probably run out of topics to discuss fairly quickly lol

Michael
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:56 am

qf789 wrote:
DavidByrne wrote:
Just a query to the mods: in this current environment, where governments are desperately trying to find a way to save their respective airlines, isn't EVERYTHING right now about politics? Where ownership of VA in particular is being discussed and government-supported airlines from authoritarian states are prime candidates to fund a reboot, how can it not be political? In all seriousness, guidance from the mods on what aspects of VA's future (if any) can actually be discussed here would be very much appreciated.


As per forum rules

Political Discussion
1. As some aviation topics relate to politics, political statements related to aviation are permitted, provided the political discussion is merely to provide context to the discussion. Political commentary without aviation context, with the purpose of being inflammatory or injecting political bias, or comments which are fundamentally a political discussion will be removed in all aviation forums. Political commentary must serve a purpose in aviation forums.
2. Political discussion unrelated to aviation, or aviation topics primarily rooted in politics are limited to the Non-Aviation Forum.


In a nutshell, keep your comments on topic and relating aviation, those comments that have been removed havent been related to aviation, or the discussion in general. Instead they have been political in nature unrelated to the discussion, comments such as a government shoring up votes or general comments about the Chinese government are not related to the discussion and can lead to the thread going off track quickly and in same cases other users find these comments offensive

I suggest that if you would like to discuss this further either start a thread in Site Related or email us [email protected]

Thanks, that’s helpful.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
User avatar
cougar15
Posts: 1442
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:38 pm

xiaotung wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
But wait.. there's still more. According to the News Corp media, now other Chinese Government owned carriers are rumoured to get involved. CZ and CA were named in the (paywalled) article as the parties "rumoured" to be in 'discussions' to "buy VA", although no formal offer was lodged.

This move won't be "popular" politically in light of the recent events worldwide.

Source (Paywall) https://www.couriermail.com.au/business ... c4e6c91ba8


I am really skeptical about what was said in the article that 2 of the big three Chinese airlines are approaching VA jointly. I am not sure if this was intentionally leaked to put pressure on the Morrison government if they allow the 2nd biggest airline to become fully Chinese owned.

Chinese airlines did not bail out Alitalia and I can't see why they would want to take over VA, unless someone got confused that CA and CZ might take over HNA's various assets if Hainan Airlines collapse as this was being floated in the last month or 2.


The way it is going, u got any better ideas just now...... ? New times are ahead, no matter if we like them or not, guess we might have to get use to them to survive in this very industry! .
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Melb94
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:21 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:39 pm

Regarding repatriation flights, I saw browsing through smarttraveller on Facebook, I saw a post that PIA are going to operate a non-scheduled commercial flights from Lahore to Melbourne. It will depart on 24 April and arrive in Melbourne on 25 April.

https://www.facebook.com/smartraveller. ... 2785147123
 
xiaotung
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:58 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:34 pm

Morrofinch wrote:
All the chatter is really pointing to a a Chinese takeover through China Eastern before Voluntary Administration. Nanshan also will maintain a minor (read around 13-17 percent) stake under this proposal. If you believe Skynews the Airline will be called Australian Eastern Airways.



Why would they over pay all existing shareholders and take on enornous debt and not wait until VA goes into administration and wipe out all existing shareholders at a bargain?
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:23 pm

MU & VA- I don't believe a word of it. Why would MU even want to enter the Australian domestic market? Their Chinese domestic market is more profitable than the Australian equivalent, and they fly to SYD/MEL and seasonally to BNE- all with mostly inbound Chinese pax. They are also one of the few online carriers that didn't sign a preferred partnership deal with Flight Centre, so it seems hard to believe.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:41 pm

I see the KLM 77W repatriation flight went unusually westward on the SYD-NRT leg while JAL/ANA went directly North to Japan as usual. Just guessing maybe KLM couldn't get PNG overfly rights or there was another administrative problem?
https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM828/24601634
 
qf2048
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:16 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:41 pm

eta unknown wrote:
I see the KLM 77W repatriation flight went unusually westward on the SYD-NRT leg while JAL/ANA went directly North to Japan as usual. Just guessing maybe KLM couldn't get PNG overfly rights or there was another administrative problem?
https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM828/24601634

I noticed that too. As you say JL/NH/QF into Sydney all come in over Mackay, or around there, then pretty much a straight line into Sydney. Was on one of those flights late last year. (Probably turned out to be my last ride on 744).
ZL,QF,KE,BA,AS,CX,FR,U2,W6,EI,IB,JL,AY,LH,AA,AC,FQ,DJ,JQ,LA,FJ,QS,NZ,NF,SB,PG,EK,AB,VA,MH,KA,VN
 
Morrofinch
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:44 pm

xiaotung wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
All the chatter is really pointing to a a Chinese takeover through China Eastern before Voluntary Administration. Nanshan also will maintain a minor (read around 13-17 percent) stake under this proposal. If you believe Skynews the Airline will be called Australian Eastern Airways.



Why would they over pay all existing shareholders and take on enornous debt and not wait until VA goes into administration and wipe out all existing shareholders at a bargain?


Perception is one thing. They wanna be seen as the heroes for obvious reason. Plus the existing shareholders would likely accept very very low amounts. And lets not forget MU has some 80 billion USD cash reserves to pull on
 
SYDSpotter
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:45 am

Morrofinch wrote:
And lets not forget MU has some 80 billion USD cash reserves to pull on


I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:58 am

With all the repat’ flights taking place, how do flight crews plan for visiting an airport they’ve never been to before?

For example the recent VA flight to CDG. I know electronic flight bags will show detailed information about airports such as runways and taxiways, etc. Is this sufficient or are there other tools available?

And obviously the same would apply to carriers who recently flew here such as Condor, LOT, El Al, and so on.

Thanks.
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
Morrofinch
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:24 am

SYDSpotter wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
And lets not forget MU has some 80 billion USD cash reserves to pull on


I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...


Being 62% state owned by the Chinese government, they get afforded luxuries many airlines do not. One of those things being huge cash reserves.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3875
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:45 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
With all the repat’ flights taking place, how do flight crews plan for visiting an airport they’ve never been to before?

For example the recent VA flight to CDG. I know electronic flight bags will show detailed information about airports such as runways and taxiways, etc. Is this sufficient or are there other tools available?

And obviously the same would apply to carriers who recently flew here such as Condor, LOT, El Al, and so on.

Thanks.


These flights are happening at at least an couple of days notice, if not an weeks notice.

Plenty of time for the airlines ops teams to plan the flights out, it’s not like the operational staff have much else todo at the moment.

Ground services are pretty essay to sort, most likes have an relationship with all the major ground companies around the world. Any all the ground agency’s are all begging for work at the moment, so would take long for someone to say yes.

I know the LH flights ex AKL/CHC for example had they boarding passes hand written on NZ stock by NZ ground staff. They also pre-printed bulk bag tags for these flights, and tagged the baggage manually.
 
User avatar
a36001
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:45 am

This rumor of MU buying VA is truly worrying! If this takes place I can say with every fibre of my being I will not ever set foot on a VA (or what ever third rate name they are called) airplane. And this is not a political statement it is about keeping the playing field level! The same foreign ownership rules should be the same to Virgin that are applied to QF!
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:00 am

Morrofinch wrote:
SYDSpotter wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
And lets not forget MU has some 80 billion USD cash reserves to pull on


I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...


Being 62% state owned by the Chinese government, they get afforded luxuries many airlines do not. One of those things being huge cash reserves.

Do not throw BS in here where you cannot backup with proof.

Being owned by governmnet is one thing, holding cash reserve for a particular company is another. It's not like previously they have to ask the government for money.

And since MU is a NYSE listed company, let's just pull some data, I can't be bothered with annual reports so I'll use Yahoo Finance data here: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CEA/balance-sheet?p=CEA. It shows China Eastern as at 30/12/19 holds 1.35 billion RMB in cash, or (using today's rate, I know) an equivalent of AUD$299.78 million.

Enough said.

a36001 wrote:
This rumor of MU buying VA is truly worrying! If this takes place I can say with every fibre of my being I will not ever set foot on a VA (or what ever third rate name they are called) airplane. And this is not a political statement it is about keeping the playing field level! The same foreign ownership rules should be the same to Virgin that are applied to QF!

You'd better not doing it right now because VA is 90% foreign owned already.

What's the freaking difference? It's not like Australia does not allow foreign airline ownership. Or you can choose not to fly any foreign airlines at all.

Enough nonsense here.

Michael
 
Morrofinch
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:07 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
SYDSpotter wrote:

I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...


Being 62% state owned by the Chinese government, they get afforded luxuries many airlines do not. One of those things being huge cash reserves.

Do not throw BS in here where you cannot backup with proof.

Being owned by governmnet is one thing, holding cash reserve for a particular company is another. It's not like previously they have to ask the government for money.

And since MU is a NYSE listed company, let's just pull some data, I can't be bothered with annual reports so I'll use Yahoo Finance data here: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CEA/balance-sheet?p=CEA. It shows China Eastern as at 30/12/19 holds 1.35 billion RMB in cash, or (using today's rate, I know) an equivalent of AUD$299.78 million.

Enough said.

Michael


With all due respect, if you look at the statements through the lens of the complex ownership structure I believe you will see a different picture with their reserves. Well at least thats what the Sky special report indicated. I will happily stand corrected but I am basing my comments of this report.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:10 am

Morrofinch wrote:
With all due respect, if you look at the statements through the lens of the complex ownership structure I believe you will see a different picture with their reserves. Well at least thats what the Sky special report indicated. I will happily stand corrected but I am basing my comments of this report.

Complex or not they're a listed company, so if they need any cash from the government it's not like you can just pass it secretly beneath the table. Whatever Sky news is trying to indicate can only be treated as a grain of salt especially given their previous history - as a matter of fact few news agencies in Australia can produce a proper readworthy news at all when anything is China related, and certainly none of the TV channels are capable of doing that.

Michael
 
Morrofinch
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:15 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:30 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
With all due respect, if you look at the statements through the lens of the complex ownership structure I believe you will see a different picture with their reserves. Well at least thats what the Sky special report indicated. I will happily stand corrected but I am basing my comments of this report.

Complex or not they're a listed company, so if they need any cash from the government it's not like you can just pass it secretly beneath the table. Whatever Sky news is trying to indicate can only be treated as a grain of salt especially given their previous history - as a matter of fact few news agencies in Australia can produce a proper readworthy news at all when anything is China related, and certainly none of the TV channels are capable of doing that.

Michael


I accept the premise of your comments absolutely. Let me say, however, wether that figure is accurate or not (I think it would have some truth to it) they do have the finances to take over VA which was to the heart of the fact.
 
SYDSpotter
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:53 am

Morrofinch wrote:
SYDSpotter wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
And lets not forget MU has some 80 billion USD cash reserves to pull on


I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...


Being 62% state owned by the Chinese government, they get afforded luxuries many airlines do not. One of those things being huge cash reserves.


Ok if your premise is correct, then they actually have access to far more than $80bn USD, try a trillion US dollars.

With the vast reserves of the Chinese government MU could buy QF, SQ, LH, AA, BA, UA. But anyway, you read/saw it on somewhere, so it must be true.

But just to put some context as to how wrong your number/source is, the market capitalisation of MU is ~$8.6bn USD, but somehow they have cash reserves of $80bn USD.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:10 am

a36001 wrote:
This rumor of MU buying VA is truly worrying! If this takes place I can say with every fibre of my being I will not ever set foot on a VA (or what ever third rate name they are called) airplane. And this is not a political statement it is about keeping the playing field level! The same foreign ownership rules should be the same to Virgin that are applied to QF!


Well for that to happen would be for the federal government to nationalise the airline then in due time to make an IPO governed by a statue. Much similar to the Qantas Sale Act (1992).

VAH is already part owned by two Chinese carriers/groups, one Singaporean, one Emirati, and to a lesser extent, one Brit. What difference do you think ownership by one Chinese group would make?
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
waoz1
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:20 am

Interesting on Sky the NSW treasurer admitted that they have been in discussions with VA to move to SYD. Would like them to headquartered at SWZ.

Did not want to discuss $$$$, which is understandable
Smoke and mirrors everywhere
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:37 am

waoz1 wrote:
Interesting on Sky the NSW treasurer admitted that they have been in discussions with VA to move to SYD. Would like them to headquartered at SWZ.

Did not want to discuss $$$$, which is understandable
Smoke and mirrors everywhere


I think every politician will relish an opportunity to promote a “positive idea” without any meaningful substance. Hence, smoke and mirrors. They all do it.

And I’m not sure by what he means by “headquartered” at SWZ. Whilst SWZ is finally a good idea for a second Sydney airport, personal opinion, the bulk of their business will come from SYD for the seeable future, assuming they survive. If he’s talking about VA as an anchor tenant for the Western Sydney Aerotropolis, then that is something else altogether.
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 572
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:58 am

Behind the paywall, but a decent summary of how Virgin Australia found itself where it is today.

Behind Virgin Australia's crash landing

April 22 will mark the end of Virgin's nine-day trading suspension and hopefully deliver some clarity on the carrier's immediate future. For now, the big question is how it all went wrong.


https://www.afr.com/companies/transport ... 416-p54kdf

Does anybody know if Virgin Australia apply for another extension from ASX trading on April 22 if it still doesn't have anything to say by then?
 
waoz1
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:31 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:05 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
Interesting on Sky the NSW treasurer admitted that they have been in discussions with VA to move to SYD. Would like them to headquartered at SWZ.

Did not want to discuss $$$$, which is understandable
Smoke and mirrors everywhere


I think every politician will relish an opportunity to promote a “positive idea” without any meaningful substance. Hence, smoke and mirrors. They all do it.

And I’m not sure by what he means by “headquartered” at SWZ. Whilst SWZ is finally a good idea for a second Sydney airport, personal opinion, the bulk of their business will come from SYD for the seeable future, assuming they survive. If he’s talking about VA as an anchor tenant for the Western Sydney Aerotropolis, then that is something else altogether.


Not sure why the treasurer of NSW would go on national tv and admit discussions about such a thing.
He was just being honest about them having discussions. Nothing more nothing less.
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:16 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Does anybody know if Virgin Australia apply for another extension from ASX trading on April 22 if it still doesn't have anything to say by then?


I contacted an old neighbour and friend who has a partner that is flight crew for VA. She stated that she couldn’t say much as much as the discussions are very much Commercial In Confidence at this time. Whilst the discussions are productive there is a lot of things to be sorted and it has become SLOW. So my take from that is that there could be an additional extension. I believe, and don’t quote me on this, there is a lot of discussion about Velocity and how and where it fits in.

She’s a primary school teacher and he’s a VA pilot and both want to be back at work ASAP
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
User avatar
a36001
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:26 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Morrofinch wrote:
SYDSpotter wrote:

I think you've got far too many zero's in that number, that don't even make anywhere near that in revenue...


Being 62% state owned by the Chinese government, they get afforded luxuries many airlines do not. One of those things being huge cash reserves.

Do not throw BS in here where you cannot backup with proof.

Being owned by governmnet is one thing, holding cash reserve for a particular company is another. It's not like previously they have to ask the government for money.

And since MU is a NYSE listed company, let's just pull some data, I can't be bothered with annual reports so I'll use Yahoo Finance data here: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CEA/balance-sheet?p=CEA. It shows China Eastern as at 30/12/19 holds 1.35 billion RMB in cash, or (using today's rate, I know) an equivalent of AUD$299.78 million.

Enough said.

a36001 wrote:
This rumor of MU buying VA is truly worrying! If this takes place I can say with every fibre of my being I will not ever set foot on a VA (or what ever third rate name they are called) airplane. And this is not a political statement it is about keeping the playing field level! The same foreign ownership rules should be the same to Virgin that are applied to QF!

You'd better not doing it right now because VA is 90% foreign owned already.

What's the freaking difference? It's not like Australia does not allow foreign airline ownership. Or you can choose not to fly any foreign airlines at all.

Enough nonsense here.

Michael


I know Virgin is 90% foreigned owned, I just think the playing field should be level in regards to foreign ownership. What's wrong with that?
 
Aviator34ID
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:34 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:37 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
Does anybody know if Virgin Australia apply for another extension from ASX trading on April 22 if it still doesn't have anything to say by then?


I contacted an old neighbour and friend who has a partner that is flight crew for VA. She stated that she couldn’t say much as much as the discussions are very much Commercial In Confidence at this time. Whilst the discussions are productive there is a lot of things to be sorted and it has become SLOW. So my take from that is that there could be an additional extension. I believe, and don’t quote me on this, there is a lot of discussion about Velocity and how and where it fits in.

She’s a primary school teacher and he’s a VA pilot and both want to be back at work ASAP


So now the partner of a pilot "can't say much because of commercial in confidence". With respect they would know as much about the negotiations as the taxi drivers or posters on this thread.
 
moa999
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:44 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Behind the paywall, but a decent summary of how Virgin Australia found itself where it is today.

Behind Virgin Australia's crash landing

April 22 will mark the end of Virgin's nine-day trading suspension and hopefully deliver some clarity on the carrier's immediate future. For now, the big question is how it all went wrong.


https://www.afr.com/companies/transport ... 416-p54kdf

Does anybody know if Virgin Australia apply for another extension from ASX trading on April 22 if it still doesn't have anything to say by then?
They can keep on applying afaik. During the GFC some companies were suspended for months on end.
 
myki
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:00 am

Genuine question, open to anyone ... what is the issue with foreign ownership of an airline operating domestically, as opposed to any other business operating in Australia. Is it an emotional response? Is it something else? I don't understand why some are against this, and looking for some genuine insights. I guess than on the flip side, on why other will be for it. FYI, for me I am impartial :D
 
SYDSpotter
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:15 am

myki wrote:
Genuine question, open to anyone ... what is the issue with foreign ownership of an airline operating domestically, as opposed to any other business operating in Australia. Is it an emotional response? Is it something else? I don't understand why some are against this, and looking for some genuine insights. I guess than on the flip side, on why other will be for it. FYI, for me I am impartial :D


For me there is no issue, VA is currently 90% foreign owned with no one battering an eyelid, so going 100% foreign owned doesn't really change anything. I think there is a concern around Chinese ownership and someone coming in buying a "distressed asset". But really VA are a service provider, so it's not as if the Chinese are coming in and repatriating an Australian asset overseas.

If an overseas buyer is committed to saving jobs and ensuring a viable 2nd airline, then I'm all for that. My only concern is that if that overseas buyer came in with government backing with the sole aim of driving QF out of business, then that would be an issue.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
TN486T
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:27 am

^^No objections to foreign ownership, just as long as it's less than 50%. Why? 1. Because that's the restriction QF has, and we need a level playing field (I have read and heard so much about level playing fields lately, so please, no darn arguments about all the other things QF is and isn't) in relation to level playing fields. Here we are talking about majority foreign ownership of an airline in Australia.
2. Transportation (air and rail, I believe, is an essential service in this country) and we (the collective) need to be able to control if and when necessary for the public good. cheers
 
User avatar
rtav
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:10 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:34 am

Image

This photo was taken by a Perth spotter today (Brenden Scott), no one over here can work out what aircraft this is or where its headed.
Maybe some bright minds here can work it out!
It was reportedly flying over Perth today at 1300AWST flying from West to East (Eastbound).
It has a very close resemblance to a West Jet 787.
 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:35 am

TN486T wrote:
^^No objections to foreign ownership, just as long as it's less than 50%. Why? 1. Because that's the restriction QF has, and we need a level playing field (I have read and heard so much about level playing fields lately, so please, no darn arguments about all the other things QF is and isn't) in relation to level playing fields. Here we are talking about majority foreign ownership of an airline in Australia.
2. Transportation (air and rail, I believe, is an essential service in this country) and we (the collective) need to be able to control if and when necessary for the public good. cheers


Agreed, I think when the dust settles there will be quite a few discussions about securing essential services. Whatever the outcome, I'd suggest the government should be legislating to ensure domestic airlines maintain minimum liquidity levels. The easiest way to police this would be through minimum local ownership rules.
Last edited by 81819 on Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3371
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:44 am

rtav wrote:
Image

This photo was taken by a Perth spotter today (Brenden Scott), no one over here can work out what aircraft this is or where its headed.
Maybe some bright minds here can work it out!
It was reportedly flying over Perth today at 1300AWST flying from West to East (Eastbound).
It has a very close resemblance to a West Jet 787.


At first glance, it kind of looked like a Kuwait Airways 77W, but there’s no writing underneath.

That would be a very random sight in Australian skies though, but given everything going on, nothing should be unexpected.
 
flylonghaul
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:40 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
At first glance, it kind of looked like a Kuwait Airways 77W, but there’s no writing underneath.

That would be a very random sight in Australian skies though, but given everything going on, nothing should be unexpected.


I thought the same, but also the blue on Kuwait does not stretch so far forward I think. But the engine colouring was a good match I thought.

Would love to know the answer to this, if anyone is in the know!
Flying for Pleasure
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2857
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:53 pm

rtav wrote:
Image

This photo was taken by a Perth spotter today (Brenden Scott), no one over here can work out what aircraft this is or where its headed.
Maybe some bright minds here can work it out!
It was reportedly flying over Perth today at 1300AWST flying from West to East (Eastbound).
It has a very close resemblance to a West Jet 787.


So around 8-9 hours ago? I’m not seeing anything on the playback in Planefinder
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:17 pm

Ishrion wrote:
So around 8-9 hours ago? I’m not seeing anything on the playback in Planefinder


The original poster forgot to include the info that it wasn't appearing on tracking services, eg FlightRadar24, hence the photo and question.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
timtam
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:02 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:52 pm

rtav wrote:
Image

This photo was taken by a Perth spotter today (Brenden Scott), no one over here can work out what aircraft this is or where its headed.
Maybe some bright minds here can work it out!
It was reportedly flying over Perth today at 1300AWST flying from West to East (Eastbound).
It has a very close resemblance to a West Jet 787.


Looks like a West Jet 787 - you can almost make out the numbering on the left wing which is consistent with a WestJet 787.

Without being an expert, it looks like the 787 wing profile.
 
User avatar
rtav
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:10 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:59 pm

timtam wrote:
rtav wrote:
Image

This photo was taken by a Perth spotter today (Brenden Scott), no one over here can work out what aircraft this is or where its headed.
Maybe some bright minds here can work it out!
It was reportedly flying over Perth today at 1300AWST flying from West to East (Eastbound).
It has a very close resemblance to a West Jet 787.


Looks like a West Jet 787 - you can almost make out the numbering on the left wing which is consistent with a WestJet 787.

Without being an expert, it looks like the 787 wing profile.


Problem with is, is all 5 WestJet B789’s are supposedly in Canada and nowhere near Australia according to Flightaware

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos