Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
qf002
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:19 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
When VA started asking for hand outs from the federal government, it was widely acknowledged they had $4-5B in debt. There have been several recent reports in the media that now suggest the debt level is in excess of $6B and approaching $7B. I find it absolutely gobsmacking or incredulous that almost $2.5B of debt was “lost somewhere in the system”.


Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:37 am

qf002 wrote:

Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.



Thank you, that makes much more sense. It’s when you see more reputable media, if such a thing exists, reporting the information, it implies there was something nefarious possibly happening.
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:20 am

qf002 wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
When VA started asking for hand outs from the federal government, it was widely acknowledged they had $4-5B in debt. There have been several recent reports in the media that now suggest the debt level is in excess of $6B and approaching $7B. I find it absolutely gobsmacking or incredulous that almost $2.5B of debt was “lost somewhere in the system”.


Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.


So the actual 'current' debt a week ago was $5bn, but there's also $2bn of 'potential debt' for want of a better description which is what Deloitte is now counting?
 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:28 am

qf002 wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
When VA started asking for hand outs from the federal government, it was widely acknowledged they had $4-5B in debt. There have been several recent reports in the media that now suggest the debt level is in excess of $6B and approaching $7B. I find it absolutely gobsmacking or incredulous that almost $2.5B of debt was “lost somewhere in the system”.


Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.


You just don't incur debts of $1.5 billion overnight. Considering their financed fleet of aircraft would have value close to $3 billion, it's incredulous that they could amass such an amount of debt in such a short period of time.

What this suggests, is that the financing conditions VA signed up to were incredibly onerous.
 
ArtV
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:29 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:33 am

travelhound wrote:
qf002 wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
When VA started asking for hand outs from the federal government, it was widely acknowledged they had $4-5B in debt. There have been several recent reports in the media that now suggest the debt level is in excess of $6B and approaching $7B. I find it absolutely gobsmacking or incredulous that almost $2.5B of debt was “lost somewhere in the system”.


Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.


You just don't incur debts of $1.5 billion overnight. Considering their financed fleet of aircraft would have value close to $3 billion, it's incredulous that they could amass such an amount of debt in such a short period of time.

What this suggests, is that the financing conditions VA signed up to were incredibly onerous.


These "debts" are not debts from a balance sheet/accounting perspective that arise in an ongoing operation. The "debts" in an administration are in fact "claims" - where those with actual and potential debts (as mentioned above - things like lease detault penalties, redundancy claims....) that may or may not arise....but if they claim is not lodged within the specified number of days from the appointment of the administrator, then creditors generally lose the right to claim against the assets or take part in future decisions.

In any administration/liquidatiion, the claimed debts are almsot always significantly higher than the operating debts of the company prior to the insolvency event.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1841
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:11 am

travelhound wrote:

In essence, Virgin Australia could have been insolvent prior to the pandemic.

If this is the case I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the directors are personally held liable. But I won't be too surprised if this is the case IMHO.

Michael
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8436
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:26 am

travelhound wrote:
It means VA were raising cash through a bond raising and financing of owned aircraft.

We knew about the bond raising, but all thought this was directly linked to the buy-out of the remaining share in Velocity.

With VA's P&L showing the business being largely free cash flow neutral over the last couple of years, we now know that for VA to maintain their cash position they had to sell owned aircraft and use the remaining proceeds of the bond issue to shore up their balance sheet.

This suggests VA has been bleeding cash for a considerable period of time.

It also gives us a bit more light on the Velocity purchase.

With the purchase valuing Velocity at approximately $2 billion, VA could have used the Velocity asset to artificially inflate the value of Virgin Australia.

To put this into perspective, If Velocity is actually worth $2 billion, than QANTAS's frequent flyer program would be worth $6 billion (3x larger). Considering QANTAS had a market capitalisation just prior to the pandemic of just over $6 billion, it doesn't take much thinking to see VA probably overvalued Velocity. This was the type of accounting associated with the rise and fall of ENRON.

In essence, Virgin Australia could have been insolvent prior to the pandemic.


Being "insolvent" has a specific meaning: not being able to pay debts when they become due and owing. Using debt financing to pay debt could demonstrate poor financial management, but that does not make the company insolvent.

Unfortunately though I agree with your underlying premise. Virgin were in awful financial shape before COVID-19, worse than many of us realised, and could well have ended up in administration regardless. They were rapidly running out of things to mortgage as security for new debt, and we already know that they were issuing 'junk bonds' at 8% when the cash rate was 0.5%. The mountain of debt was untenible, COVID just brought the end about much quicker. Scurrah seemed to have a good plan to turn the company around, and they might well have been able to trade out the hole they'd dug themselves, but the more we see about the underlying business the less convinced I am that they would have been able to.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
TN486T
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:08 am

^^After 1056 posts in this thread, and everything that has been said and not said, many opinions rational (and maybe some irrational), could i say with some authority that if it is felt we can sustain 2 Australia wide domestic carriers (Ho Hum), then one be full service, and the other "New World Carrier"?
New World Carrier?? What Virgin aspired to before JB. Virgin shadowing QF without throwing down the gauntlet. The line in the sand stuff. QF 65%
and NWC (Virgin or someone else) 35%. Constructive comments (if you are interested) please. cheers
 
melpax
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:40 am

redroo wrote:


Interesting.

The banking crowd and fund manager crowd was NRL in Sydney and AFL in Melbourne. Archibald prize in NSW for non sport. The tennis in Melbourne was a bit of non event because it was during the summer vacation so limited wheeling and dealing. Grand finals were hot tickets in Sydney and Melbourne.


I know with the AFL Grand Final, the general public don't get a look in, unless they're prepared to pay very inflated prices to scalpers or event companies. Even if you're a member of one of the competing clubs, it can be tricky to get tickets, especially if your club has a large membership, and also depends on what tier level your membership is. The AFL grand final, F1 Grand Prix & Cup Week (especially Oaks Day) are the biggest Corporate events in Melbourne.
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
VHZNE
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:56 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:25 pm

melpax wrote:
redroo wrote:


Interesting.

The banking crowd and fund manager crowd was NRL in Sydney and AFL in Melbourne. Archibald prize in NSW for non sport. The tennis in Melbourne was a bit of non event because it was during the summer vacation so limited wheeling and dealing. Grand finals were hot tickets in Sydney and Melbourne.


I know with the AFL Grand Final, the general public don't get a look in, unless they're prepared to pay very inflated prices to scalpers or event companies. Even if you're a member of one of the competing clubs, it can be tricky to get tickets, especially if your club has a large membership, and also depends on what tier level your membership is. The AFL grand final, F1 Grand Prix & Cup Week (especially Oaks Day) are the biggest Corporate events in Melbourne.


Vast majority of patrons at the AFL Grand Final are typically corporate people rather than actual fans unfortunately. Surely the reason for sponsoring would be in the TV ads etc?
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11138
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:23 pm

SQ is currently positioning 4 A388’s to ASP for storage
Forum Moderator
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:47 pm

qf789 wrote:
SQ is currently positioning 4 A388’s to ASP for storage


First one landing at this moment with other 3 on the way at different time blocks.

What is ASP airport like in terms of storage space after these x4 388 arrive?
 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:09 pm

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
qf002 wrote:

Most/all of this additional debt is hypothetical rather than real debt. It includes things like future obligations, contract/lease break fees, redundancy payouts etc which may become real debts depending on the direction the company takes from here.

This is the administration process doing what it is designed to do, create a clear picture of the company's obligations so that informed decisions can be made.



Thank you, that makes much more sense. It’s when you see more reputable media, if such a thing exists, reporting the information, it implies there was something nefarious possibly happening.


You will find most supply contracts will provision for situations of insolvency, administration, liquidity, etc.

As such, you could find penalties can be applied as soon as a company is placed into administration.

There have been news reports that the administrators have not advised the aircraft lessors of their intent to cancel leases on planes within the required 5 days (as per industry standards - treaty/standard contract). As such, if aircraft leases are cancelled, additional penalties could apply.

Considering the state of the industry, I suspect most creditors will be willing to negotiate a settlement through a deed of company arrangement rather than enforce the conditions of a contract. At the start of the process, there will be a fair amount of posturing to maximise the amount owing to ensure the best possible outcome. For an example if a contract (hypothetically) has penalties of 50% and the a deed of company arrangement negotiates a settlement of 60cents in the dollar, a creditor would only lose 10 cents in the dollar on the original amount owing once the penalty rates are applied.

For the record an employer has an obligation to ensure employee entitlements are secure. As such, in a liquidation process employees are typically the first group of creditors to be paid.

In reality, once a company is placed into liquidation a lot of value is lost simply because the prices of liquidated assets are typically below the company book rate valuations. This is why the government now has a government funded employee guarantee scheme.
 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:06 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
travelhound wrote:
It means VA were raising cash through a bond raising and financing of owned aircraft.

We knew about the bond raising, but all thought this was directly linked to the buy-out of the remaining share in Velocity.

With VA's P&L showing the business being largely free cash flow neutral over the last couple of years, we now know that for VA to maintain their cash position they had to sell owned aircraft and use the remaining proceeds of the bond issue to shore up their balance sheet.

This suggests VA has been bleeding cash for a considerable period of time.

It also gives us a bit more light on the Velocity purchase.

With the purchase valuing Velocity at approximately $2 billion, VA could have used the Velocity asset to artificially inflate the value of Virgin Australia.

To put this into perspective, If Velocity is actually worth $2 billion, than QANTAS's frequent flyer program would be worth $6 billion (3x larger). Considering QANTAS had a market capitalisation just prior to the pandemic of just over $6 billion, it doesn't take much thinking to see VA probably overvalued Velocity. This was the type of accounting associated with the rise and fall of ENRON.

In essence, Virgin Australia could have been insolvent prior to the pandemic.


Being "insolvent" has a specific meaning: not being able to pay debts when they become due and owing. Using debt financing to pay debt could demonstrate poor financial management, but that does not make the company insolvent.

Unfortunately though I agree with your underlying premise. Virgin were in awful financial shape before COVID-19, worse than many of us realised, and could well have ended up in administration regardless. They were rapidly running out of things to mortgage as security for new debt, and we already know that they were issuing 'junk bonds' at 8% when the cash rate was 0.5%. The mountain of debt was untenible, COVID just brought the end about much quicker. Scurrah seemed to have a good plan to turn the company around, and they might well have been able to trade out the hole they'd dug themselves, but the more we see about the underlying business the less convinced I am that they would have been able to.


Insolvency relates to a combination of equity (assets: liabilities) and ability to pay debts when due.

If we go back twenty plus years, Fosters (as in beer) one of the market darlings of the ASX had negative equity (liabilities greater than assets). As the company produced substantial amounts of cash and there was never a question of them not being able to pay their bills, the majority of their earnings were returned to shareholders. Having negative equity was of little consequence.

When ENRON in the US failed 15 years ago, governments released new accounting standards requiring companies to impair asset values in the accounting period the loss was incurred. This is why airlines will often report forward losses on fuel hedges, even though some of the losses will be realised in future accounting periods.

If the valuation on the Velocity asset is found to be overvalued and asset impairments due to Corona virus should have been reported at the time the losses were incurred (i.e. the 3rd financial quarter), it could be argued as of the 30 March date, VA had negative equity.

If with look at Perth Airport as an indicator, the outstanding invoices of $16 million suggests VA could have already been in arrears with paying creditors as of the 30 March 2020.

The financing of owned aircraft on the 24 March 2020 suggests there could have been an almost immediate need for cash (to maintain solvency).

VA’s request for a government loan came on the 30 March 2020. When the government loan did not come through, VA almost immediately placed themselves into administration.

As such, it could be argued Virgin Australia was technically insolvent prior to 1st April.
 
PJC62
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:54 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:13 am

Alice Spring starting to look like a mini Changi Airport. 3 x 777, 4 x Scoot 320, and I see 3 x A388, these all 2-year old birds. More to come I wonder.
 
QF41
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:21 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:56 am

Plus a few silk air 737max
Must be somewhere can't be nowhere

QF, VA, JQ, SQ, AA, BA, DJ, MH, RJ, EK, EY, GA, AY, LA, CU, UL, NZ, CI, PR, AZ, AT, U2, MZ, NC, 3K
 
TN486T
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:18 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:40 am

Any photos of ac parked at Alice Springs?
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:57 am

Related Virgin news:

SIA parent company - Singapore Government owned Temasek mentioned among interested parties for a VS stake (in lieu of the failed UK government loan bid).

IMO, Can't see that happening. Temasek via SIA couldn't make VS work the first time around, and there will be questions whether if they could make it work the second time in the (unlikely) case of them acquiring a VS stake.

Source: https://www.thestar.com.my/business/bus ... n-atlantic
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11138
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:05 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Related Virgin news:

SIA parent company - Singapore Government owned Temasek mentioned among interested parties for a VS stake (in lieu of the failed UK government loan bid).

IMO, Can't see that happening. Temasek via SIA couldn't make VS work the first time around, and there will be questions whether if they could make it work the second time in the (unlikely) case of them acquiring a VS stake.

Source: https://www.thestar.com.my/business/bus ... n-atlantic


What has this got to do with this thread?
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
SCFlyer
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:19 am

qf789 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Related Virgin news:

SIA parent company - Singapore Government owned Temasek mentioned among interested parties for a VS stake (in lieu of the failed UK government loan bid).

IMO, Can't see that happening. Temasek via SIA couldn't make VS work the first time around, and there will be questions whether if they could make it work the second time in the (unlikely) case of them acquiring a VS stake.

Source: https://www.thestar.com.my/business/bus ... n-atlantic


What has this got to do with this thread?


I apologise, wasn't sure if it belonged in the Virgin Australia Administration or Australian Aviation thread despite both sharing the same part (co-owner) Mr B.

Post doesn't seem to belong in neither thread when I look back at it.

Happy for the initial post (and replies) to be deleted.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:46 am

SQ212 operated via ASP assume picking up the crew which ferried the A380’s earlier this morning.

Flight SQ212 from Alice Springs
https://fr24.com/SIA212/24688acd


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 am

TN486T wrote:
Any photos of ac parked at Alice Springs?

7 News is running a report on the aircraft currently in ASP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
myki
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:16 am

SCFlyer wrote:
qf789 wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Related Virgin news:

SIA parent company - Singapore Government owned Temasek mentioned among interested parties for a VS stake (in lieu of the failed UK government loan bid).

IMO, Can't see that happening. Temasek via SIA couldn't make VS work the first time around, and there will be questions whether if they could make it work the second time in the (unlikely) case of them acquiring a VS stake.

Source: https://www.thestar.com.my/business/bus ... n-atlantic


What has this got to do with this thread?


I apologise, wasn't sure if it belonged in the Virgin Australia Administration or Australian Aviation thread despite both sharing the same part (co-owner) Mr B.

Post doesn't seem to belong in neither thread when I look back at it.

Happy for the initial post (and replies) to be deleted.

VS is Virgin Atlantic, based in the UK and haven't flown to Australia for years. Not relevant in either forum, their would probably be a VS forum though if you have a hunt through them.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 2864
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:28 am

travelhound wrote:
If the valuation on the Velocity asset is found to be overvalued and asset impairments due to Corona virus should have been reported at the time the losses were incurred (i.e. the 3rd financial quarter), it could be argued as of the 30 March date, VA had negative equity.

If with look at Perth Airport as an indicator, the outstanding invoices of $16 million suggests VA could have already been in arrears with paying creditors as of the 30 March 2020.

The financing of owned aircraft on the 24 March 2020 suggests there could have been an almost immediate need for cash (to maintain solvency).

VA’s request for a government loan came on the 30 March 2020. When the government loan did not come through, VA almost immediately placed themselves into administration.

As such, it could be argued Virgin Australia was technically insolvent prior to 1st April.


I was thinking the same thing- the speed in which all this happened and how all the administration pieces fell into place indicates just how serious their financial position was.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:39 am

travelhound wrote:
You will find most supply contracts will provision for situations of insolvency, administration, liquidity, etc.

As such, you could find penalties can be applied as soon as a company is placed into administration.

There have been news reports that the administrators have not advised the aircraft lessors of their intent to cancel leases on planes within the required 5 days (as per industry standards - treaty/standard contract). As such, if aircraft leases are cancelled, additional penalties could apply.

Considering the state of the industry, I suspect most creditors will be willing to negotiate a settlement through a deed of company arrangement rather than enforce the conditions of a contract. At the start of the process, there will be a fair amount of posturing to maximise the amount owing to ensure the best possible outcome. For an example if a contract (hypothetically) has penalties of 50% and the a deed of company arrangement negotiates a settlement of 60cents in the dollar, a creditor would only lose 10 cents in the dollar on the original amount owing once the penalty rates are applied.

The five day rule only applies in certain circumstances, and starts from non-payment of a monthly (sometimes weekly) lease payment. Cape Town describes four scenarios.

Commercial aircraft leases are not like car leases. The leasing company has a team managing the account, and each aircraft on lease. Since COVID, leasing companies have been in daily (and even more frequent) contact with lessees. Ditto for banks. No surprises if those with exposure have been doing their job.

Most in the aviation industry (airlines, airports, MX, etc) have already established credit committees, composed of selected senior management, advisors, banks, lessors and other major creditors. Banks, lessors and creditors not directly represented (or too remote / unable to travel) nominate reps (often one of those already attending).

Liquidations, receiverships and statutory management are more amicable than most realise.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 5558
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:55 am

EK413 wrote:
TN486T wrote:
Any photos of ac parked at Alice Springs?

7 News is running a report on the aircraft currently in ASP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Image
Image
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
User avatar
allrite
Posts: 2614
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:41 pm

smartplane wrote:
Most in the aviation industry (airlines, airports, MX, etc) have already established credit committees, composed of selected senior management, advisors, banks, lessors and other major creditors. Banks, lessors and creditors not directly represented (or too remote / unable to travel) nominate reps (often one of those already attending).

Liquidations, receiverships and statutory management are more amicable than most realise.


Indirectly, you have touched on one of the probable early drivers for business travel once the restrictions are lifted. As a friend in the area says, the pandemic is going to drive a lot of international mergers and acquisitions (his area), along other creditor related business, and much of this needs trusted feet on the ground.

However, the organisation I work for is doing virus and vaccine characterisation research and while there is still much to learn, we were briefed that it increasingly appears likely that many international restrictions on travel will be up until at least next year with the possibility of the rapid re-imposition of restrictions in the case of the re-emergence of outbreaks and continued quarantine measures. These could impact on travellers anywhere along their journey, which may make point-to-point travel more attractive than transits, especially with the additional mixing that occurs at transit points.

Fortunately, Australia seems to be tracking well, which could mean the resumption of domestic travel, though potentially with costly middle seat distancing restrictions in place. For those that can afford it, I wonder if we'll see a bump in people wanting to take domestic holidays after being locked away for so long. Also by how much those travel vouchers will decline in real value with higher fares due to those restrictions.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
User avatar
qf2220
Posts: 1974
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:44 pm

travelhound wrote:
It means VA were raising cash through a bond raising and financing of owned aircraft.

We knew about the bond raising, but all thought this was directly linked to the buy-out of the remaining share in Velocity.

With VA's P&L showing the business being largely free cash flow neutral over the last couple of years, we now know that for VA to maintain their cash position they had to sell owned aircraft and use the remaining proceeds of the bond issue to shore up their balance sheet.

This suggests VA has been bleeding cash for a considerable period of time.

It also gives us a bit more light on the Velocity purchase.

With the purchase valuing Velocity at approximately $2 billion, VA could have used the Velocity asset to artificially inflate the value of Virgin Australia.

To put this into perspective, If Velocity is actually worth $2 billion, than QANTAS's frequent flyer program would be worth $6 billion (3x larger). Considering QANTAS had a market capitalisation just prior to the pandemic of just over $6 billion, it doesn't take much thinking to see VA probably overvalued Velocity. This was the type of accounting associated with the rise and fall of ENRON.

In essence, Virgin Australia could have been insolvent prior to the pandemic.


There is a quirk in th accounting standards for buying into an entity that you already own part of where the part you already own is revalued based on the purchase price you pay for the step acquisition. I have seen one instance in my professional life where this has lead to an executive overpaying for an investment based on the short term profit and suffering significant consequences after the fact, where about 3 times the profit were sunk into this business to fix it up. The executive was punted in the end.

Its conceivable that something similar happened here where VA bought at an inflated price which boosted their balance sheet, helloing them in other ways.

Ill be following this aspect...
 
moa999
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:07 am

myki wrote:
Not relevant in either forum, their would probably be a VS forum though if you have a hunt through them.


Relevant only in the sense that SQ has said no to an investment in VA, speculated because Temasek/SingGovt doesn't want to see bailout money going offshore.

Yet at the same time Temasek is considering a stake in VS
 
User avatar
a36001
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:57 am

moa999 wrote:
myki wrote:
Not relevant in either forum, their would probably be a VS forum though if you have a hunt through them.


Relevant only in the sense that SQ has said no to an investment in VA, speculated because Temasek/SingGovt doesn't want to see bailout money going offshore.

Yet at the same time Temasek is considering a stake in VS


This is very relevant to this thread and the Virgin Australia thread. When I read this, I thought the exact same thing! That they say no to helping Virgin Australia even though they own part of them and then say they might be interested in taking a share of Virgin ATLANTIC?! If this is true, they should be called out for it! Pathetic!
 
SYDSpotter
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:10 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am

qf2220 wrote:

There is a quirk in th accounting standards for buying into an entity that you already own part of where the part you already own is revalued based on the purchase price you pay for the step acquisition. I have seen one instance in my professional life where this has lead to an executive overpaying for an investment based on the short term profit and suffering significant consequences after the fact, where about 3 times the profit were sunk into this business to fix it up. The executive was punted in the end.

Its conceivable that something similar happened here where VA bought at an inflated price which boosted their balance sheet, helloing them in other ways.

Ill be following this aspect...


Well you can throw that theory out the window, there was no revaluation of Velocity in the 31 Dec 2019 accounts following VA's acquisition of the 35% of Velocity they didn't own. The reason for this, Velocity was never shown as a separate asset on the balance sheet, it's consolidated on the balance sheet with VA recognising 100% of the assets and liabilities of Velocity and then separately recognising a non-controlling/minority interest in equity. The 31 December 2019 accounts also state that Velocity's assets and liabilities continue to be measured in the VA group accounts at historical cost and not revalued based on the most recent acquisition of the $35% of Velocity for $700m.
- Source: 31 December 2019 Virgin Australia half year accounts.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
myki
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:50 am

a36001 wrote:
moa999 wrote:
myki wrote:
Not relevant in either forum, their would probably be a VS forum though if you have a hunt through them.


Relevant only in the sense that SQ has said no to an investment in VA, speculated because Temasek/SingGovt doesn't want to see bailout money going offshore.

Yet at the same time Temasek is considering a stake in VS


This is very relevant to this thread and the Virgin Australia thread. When I read this, I thought the exact same thing! That they say no to helping Virgin Australia even though they own part of them and then say they might be interested in taking a share of Virgin ATLANTIC?! If this is true, they should be called out for it! Pathetic!

If the numbers don't stack up in SQ's favour, then it would be pathetic for them to make the business decision to flush more funds down the toilet. People may have an emotional attachment to an airline, the boardroom see lines on a powerpoint slide. So they've decided to invest elsewhere, cut their losses and walk away. That's a mature business decision to make, whether others agree or not.
 
melpax
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:13 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:02 am

allrite wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Most in the aviation industry (airlines, airports, MX, etc) have already established credit committees, composed of selected senior management, advisors, banks, lessors and other major creditors. Banks, lessors and creditors not directly represented (or too remote / unable to travel) nominate reps (often one of those already attending).

Liquidations, receiverships and statutory management are more amicable than most realise.


Indirectly, you have touched on one of the probable early drivers for business travel once the restrictions are lifted. As a friend in the area says, the pandemic is going to drive a lot of international mergers and acquisitions (his area), along other creditor related business, and much of this needs trusted feet on the ground.

However, the organisation I work for is doing virus and vaccine characterisation research and while there is still much to learn, we were briefed that it increasingly appears likely that many international restrictions on travel will be up until at least next year with the possibility of the rapid re-imposition of restrictions in the case of the re-emergence of outbreaks and continued quarantine measures. These could impact on travellers anywhere along their journey, which may make point-to-point travel more attractive than transits, especially with the additional mixing that occurs at transit points.

Fortunately, Australia seems to be tracking well, which could mean the resumption of domestic travel, though potentially with costly middle seat distancing restrictions in place. For those that can afford it, I wonder if we'll see a bump in people wanting to take domestic holidays after being locked away for so long. Also by how much those travel vouchers will decline in real value with higher fares due to those restrictions.


Can't see international travel re-starting (with the possible exception of New Zealand) this side of Christmas. Even then some destinations may be even longer, depending on the situation, or it may be as you've said, you might be a guest of the Commonwealth for 14 days if you have visited certain countries or regions during your trip. Flying certainly won't be as easy as before, direct flights, or transfers within Australia will be very much sought after, This year will be a return of the old-school Queensland holiday, all going well. And most families might be doing it by car again.
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:38 am

LCC specialist Indigo Capital tried to take over Virgin Australia in late 2018, got rebuffed and is now back in the ring again.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 54nmm.html

Very interesting, Indigo's LCC airlines are big on the A320neo, I wonder a successful bid this time around would mean an all-new airline without the Virgin brand (no reason to pay Richard Branson that licensing fee) and with all B737s sold and A320neos taking over?
 
JQ321
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:05 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
LCC specialist Indigo Capital tried to take over Virgin Australia in late 2018, got rebuffed and is now back in the ring again.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 54nmm.html

Very interesting, Indigo's LCC airlines are big on the A320neo, I wonder a successful bid this time around would mean an all-new airline without the Virgin brand (no reason to pay Richard Branson that licensing fee) and with all B737s sold and A320neos taking over?

Maybe in the future buying the A320neo to replace the 737's with the max's cancelled. But no point selling all of the 737's and then buying A320neo. If they were going to do that they might as well just start up their own new airline without $7 Billion debt.
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2561
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:35 am

melpax wrote:
allrite wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Most in the aviation industry (airlines, airports, MX, etc) have already established credit committees, composed of selected senior management, advisors, banks, lessors and other major creditors. Banks, lessors and creditors not directly represented (or too remote / unable to travel) nominate reps (often one of those already attending).

Liquidations, receiverships and statutory management are more amicable than most realise.


Indirectly, you have touched on one of the probable early drivers for business travel once the restrictions are lifted. As a friend in the area says, the pandemic is going to drive a lot of international mergers and acquisitions (his area), along other creditor related business, and much of this needs trusted feet on the ground.

However, the organisation I work for is doing virus and vaccine characterisation research and while there is still much to learn, we were briefed that it increasingly appears likely that many international restrictions on travel will be up until at least next year with the possibility of the rapid re-imposition of restrictions in the case of the re-emergence of outbreaks and continued quarantine measures. These could impact on travellers anywhere along their journey, which may make point-to-point travel more attractive than transits, especially with the additional mixing that occurs at transit points.

Fortunately, Australia seems to be tracking well, which could mean the resumption of domestic travel, though potentially with costly middle seat distancing restrictions in place. For those that can afford it, I wonder if we'll see a bump in people wanting to take domestic holidays after being locked away for so long. Also by how much those travel vouchers will decline in real value with higher fares due to those restrictions.


Can't see international travel re-starting (with the possible exception of New Zealand) this side of Christmas. Even then some destinations may be even longer, depending on the situation, or it may be as you've said, you might be a guest of the Commonwealth for 14 days if you have visited certain countries or regions during your trip. Flying certainly won't be as easy as before, direct flights, or transfers within Australia will be very much sought after, This year will be a return of the old-school Queensland holiday, all going well. And most families might be doing it by car again.

International travel may recommence in Q1 2021 though a northern winter outbreak of CV without a vaccine will delay this much longer. Even domestic air travel will recover slowly probably much slower than many realise or the airlines wish. JetBlue has announced that all passengers must wear masks and Air Asia has all their crew in branded hazard suits. As long as this level of safety is required, people are going to be quite leery about getting onboard a plane. In addition, many companies will have discovered that they can achieve quite a lot with teleconferencing etc so justifying a flight from Melbourne to Sydney for a business meeting is going to be a whole lot harder in future.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
aerohottie
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:52 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:28 am

JQ321 wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
LCC specialist Indigo Capital tried to take over Virgin Australia in late 2018, got rebuffed and is now back in the ring again.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 54nmm.html

Very interesting, Indigo's LCC airlines are big on the A320neo, I wonder a successful bid this time around would mean an all-new airline without the Virgin brand (no reason to pay Richard Branson that licensing fee) and with all B737s sold and A320neos taking over?

Maybe in the future buying the A320neo to replace the 737's with the max's cancelled. But no point selling all of the 737's and then buying A320neo. If they were going to do that they might as well just start up their own new airline without $7 Billion debt.

I've been thinking about the possibility of a cashed up player proposing to start a new carrier, and ride the growth wave once things start to open up.
Aircraft are going to be very cheap to acquire, and the new airline wouldn't be saddled with the massive debt VA has.
It would also be interesting to see how this could impact the players looking to invest in VA... should they walk away, the new entrant could acquire velocity and the airport infrastructure (lounges, gates etc) for a song...
 
ArtV
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:29 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:36 am

aerohottie wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
LCC specialist Indigo Capital tried to take over Virgin Australia in late 2018, got rebuffed and is now back in the ring again.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 54nmm.html

Very interesting, Indigo's LCC airlines are big on the A320neo, I wonder a successful bid this time around would mean an all-new airline without the Virgin brand (no reason to pay Richard Branson that licensing fee) and with all B737s sold and A320neos taking over?

Maybe in the future buying the A320neo to replace the 737's with the max's cancelled. But no point selling all of the 737's and then buying A320neo. If they were going to do that they might as well just start up their own new airline without $7 Billion debt.

I've been thinking about the possibility of a cashed up player proposing to start a new carrier, and ride the growth wave once things start to open up.
Aircraft are going to be very cheap to acquire, and the new airline wouldn't be saddled with the massive debt VA has.
It would also be interesting to see how this could impact the players looking to invest in VA... should they walk away, the new entrant could acquire velocity and the airport infrastructure (lounges, gates etc) for a song...


But it could be a risky tactic to wait and hope... If someone picks up the VA business cheaply, there would be no carcus left to attack for unwanted assets. All depends on the creditors, and how much of a haircut they will agree to take (or convert to equity). A deal is there to be made, I think, as the liquidation value for creditors is next to zero (including secured creditors.... Their aircraft ain't worth what they were before).
 
tullamarine
Posts: 2561
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:14 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:37 am

aerohottie wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
CraigAnderson wrote:
LCC specialist Indigo Capital tried to take over Virgin Australia in late 2018, got rebuffed and is now back in the ring again.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 54nmm.html

Very interesting, Indigo's LCC airlines are big on the A320neo, I wonder a successful bid this time around would mean an all-new airline without the Virgin brand (no reason to pay Richard Branson that licensing fee) and with all B737s sold and A320neos taking over?

Maybe in the future buying the A320neo to replace the 737's with the max's cancelled. But no point selling all of the 737's and then buying A320neo. If they were going to do that they might as well just start up their own new airline without $7 Billion debt.

I've been thinking about the possibility of a cashed up player proposing to start a new carrier, and ride the growth wave once things start to open up.
Aircraft are going to be very cheap to acquire, and the new airline wouldn't be saddled with the massive debt VA has.
It would also be interesting to see how this could impact the players looking to invest in VA... should they walk away, the new entrant could acquire velocity and the airport infrastructure (lounges, gates etc) for a song...

....but setting up from scratch and getting a new AOC is a very time consuming project so this approach would take a year at least.
717, 721/2, 732/3/4/5/7/8/9, 742/3/4, 752/3, 762/3, 772/E/W, 788/9, 300,310, 319,320/1, 332/3, 359, 388, DC9, DC10, F28, F100, 142,143, E75/90, CR2, D82/3/4, SF3, ATR
 
anstar
Posts: 3291
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:26 am

tullamarine wrote:
....but setting up from scratch and getting a new AOC is a very time consuming project so this approach would take a year at least.

Or they can make an offer for to the administrators for the Tiger AOC.
 
ArtV
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:29 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:36 am

anstar wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
....but setting up from scratch and getting a new AOC is a very time consuming project so this approach would take a year at least.

Or they can make an offer for to the administrators for the Tiger AOC.


Or VARA, or VAI.... There are four AOC's on offer.
 
Fuling
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:41 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:47 am

IB is due in SYD tomorrow evening (29 Apr) at 20:35, inbound from BKK. Operated by an A359. SYD departure will be on 30 Apr at 16:10.
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:52 am

ArtV wrote:
anstar wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
....but setting up from scratch and getting a new AOC is a very time consuming project so this approach would take a year at least.

Or they can make an offer for to the administrators for the Tiger AOC.


Or VARA, or VAI.... There are four AOC's on offer.


Does an AOC in itself have any actual financial value?

I gather that to apply for this “permit”, a fee is involved, whatever that may be. But to acquire a legal entitlement to operate passenger and/or freight aircraft on a commercial basis would appear to make the AOC more valuable then the fee paid to gain it.

I hope my question makes sense.
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
User avatar
Chipmunk1973
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:55 am

Fuling wrote:
IB is due in SYD tomorrow evening (29 Apr) at 20:35, inbound from BKK. Operated by an A359. SYD departure will be on 30 Apr at 16:10.


Will this be the first time IB has flown down under?
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
81819
Posts: 2008
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 9:13 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:22 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
ArtV wrote:
anstar wrote:
Or they can make an offer for to the administrators for the Tiger AOC.


Or VARA, or VAI.... There are four AOC's on offer.


Does an AOC in itself have any actual financial value?

I gather that to apply for this “permit”, a fee is involved, whatever that may be. But to acquire a legal entitlement to operate passenger and/or freight aircraft on a commercial basis would appear to make the AOC more valuable then the fee paid to gain it.

I hope my question makes sense.


The AOC will have an operational structure and key personnel that sits behind it. I suspect it would have a fair amount of value for a new entrant, but.........there will be no value in the AOC if they can’t get access to airports / gates. Unfortunately, QANTAS and Virgin have long term leases on airport gates.
 
JQ321
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:40 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:25 am

travelhound wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
ArtV wrote:

Or VARA, or VAI.... There are four AOC's on offer.


Does an AOC in itself have any actual financial value?

I gather that to apply for this “permit”, a fee is involved, whatever that may be. But to acquire a legal entitlement to operate passenger and/or freight aircraft on a commercial basis would appear to make the AOC more valuable then the fee paid to gain it.

I hope my question makes sense.


The AOC will have an operational structure and key personnel that sits behind it. I suspect it would have a fair amount of value for a new entrant, but.........there will be no value in the AOC if they can’t get access to airports / gates. Unfortunately, QANTAS and Virgin have long term leases on airport gates.

Given Virgin is going to inevitably shrink maybe a new entrant could get their hands on some of the gates which Virgin won't need anymore, that is if Virgin finds a buyer.
 
User avatar
qf2220
Posts: 1974
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:32 am

SYDSpotter wrote:
qf2220 wrote:

There is a quirk in th accounting standards for buying into an entity that you already own part of where the part you already own is revalued based on the purchase price you pay for the step acquisition. I have seen one instance in my professional life where this has lead to an executive overpaying for an investment based on the short term profit and suffering significant consequences after the fact, where about 3 times the profit were sunk into this business to fix it up. The executive was punted in the end.

Its conceivable that something similar happened here where VA bought at an inflated price which boosted their balance sheet, helloing them in other ways.

Ill be following this aspect...


Well you can throw that theory out the window, there was no revaluation of Velocity in the 31 Dec 2019 accounts following VA's acquisition of the 35% of Velocity they didn't own. The reason for this, Velocity was never shown as a separate asset on the balance sheet, it's consolidated on the balance sheet with VA recognising 100% of the assets and liabilities of Velocity and then separately recognising a non-controlling/minority interest in equity. The 31 December 2019 accounts also state that Velocity's assets and liabilities continue to be measured in the VA group accounts at historical cost and not revalued based on the most recent acquisition of the $35% of Velocity for $700m.
- Source: 31 December 2019 Virgin Australia half year accounts.


Thanks for the pointer. Im glad to see the accounts were not used in this way for this transaction.
 
User avatar
CraigAnderson
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:28 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:34 am

Velocity confirms it made a $150 million loan to Virgin Australia in 2014, the loan attracts interest at a commercial rate and hasn't been repaid, it just rolls over form year to year. Velocity now lists as a creditor against Virgin Australia for the outstanding loan plus interest but you have to imagine it'll get cents on the dollar.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... m-velocity

When word of this 'loan' first surfaced it was presumed to have been taken out by Scurrah in the weeks prior to the airline going into administration, but the loan being taken in 2014 just makes it another of Borghetti's follies.
 
moa999
Posts: 968
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:50 am

While it may have been JBs time, as the risk inside VAH increased, it certainly shouldn't have simply been rolled without asking whether the interest rate or risk concentration was still appropriate.

Given VAH retail bonds were issued at 12+% only a few months ago.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3893
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - April 2020

Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:55 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Velocity confirms it made a $150 million loan to Virgin Australia in 2014, the loan attracts interest at a commercial rate and hasn't been repaid, it just rolls over form year to year. Velocity now lists as a creditor against Virgin Australia for the outstanding loan plus interest but you have to imagine it'll get cents on the dollar.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... m-velocity

When word of this 'loan' first surfaced it was presumed to have been taken out by Scurrah in the weeks prior to the airline going into administration, but the loan being taken in 2014 just makes it another of Borghetti's follies.


Sound like what ever happens with VA, it needs an full audit into its operation for-the last 7 years and with anyone responsible being held accountable for the mess they have created.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos