One can't clearly know as to who is pulling the strings in the two foreign-JV airlines. The value of stake held alone doesn't determine anything. Both have 51% TATA & the balance with the two parent foreign airlines.
For some saying Vistara is more TATA controlled; I can point out that the CEO of Vistara is Leslie Thang, a very senior executive from SIA group airlines.
For those saying AirAsia India is more foreign controlled; their CEO is a TATA veteran- S. Bhaskaran.

Ofcourse, though, Mr. Bhaskararan only came on board recently when the TATAs took over the reins of the ship.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 091_1.html

I believe there has been a big change in the airline's route network post that day.

Is it safe to say there is no vistaar(expansion) in Vistara(The Expanse)'s future.

edealinfo: We will table this argument or further discussion. Obviously you don't believe that India is a democracy under this regime. And you believe that Air Asia Malaysia's CEO Tony Fernandes is a paragon of virtue and is clean and no agency in India can be trusted.

hohd wrote:

edealinfo: We will table this argument or further discussion. Obviously you don't believe that India is a democracy under this regime. And you believe that Air Asia Malaysia's CEO Tony Fernandes is a paragon of virtue and is clean and no agency in India can be trusted.

If the agencies keep filing cases without closing the old ones, and dusting the old cases off the shelf whenever it is convenient, it is difficult to trust those institutions.

I posted the links in the past about cases against Tony/AirAsia in India
1) 49% FDI in new airline case (With High/Supreme court)
2) 5/20 bribe case (With CBI)
3) TATA money laundering case.(With CBI/ED)
4) Airbus gifts case

How many years it takes to clear or convict?

Sad News that Lufthansa has now grounded all of its 346s and 343s ...Im honoured and blessed to be the only plane spotter in the Country if not the world, to have spotted both of them contrailing a few weeks ago heading to BKK For repatriation

Also given the 744s ad 388s are set to vanish too I was lucky to have caught both of them a last week heading to Auckland and Christchurch via BKK in both newer and older liveries.

Sad times but Im glad I got to be a part of this great avition history through my P1000 for the world to remember.

trinidadeG wrote:

Please can we change the name of this thread to "Vistara discussions"? Thanks.

Feel your pain on this one! But having said that....

dtw2hyd wrote:

Is it safe to say there is no vistaar(expansion) in Vistara(The Expanse)'s future.

Pretty much! I think they might be able to absorb delivery of 1 more 789 and the first 2 A321s but I would not be surprised to see a few deferrals of orders

VTORD wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Please can we change the name of this thread to "Vistara discussions"? Thanks.

Feel your pain on this one!

But having said that.... Pretty much! I think they might be able to absorb delivery of 1 more 789 and the first 2 A321s but I would not be surprised to see a few deferrals of orders

Optimist opinion: I do think that Vistara has some scope to continue taking deliveries as scheduled. Vistara is now the country's only private Full Service Carrier. It is the only Indian partner to offer Premium Economy class to foreign carriers that seek to code-share with an Indian carrier. Surely these things mean something in the Indian transit-pax market?

Vistara can afford to compete with LCCs on the domestic routes by carrying a larger percentage of transiting pax, rather than only flying domestic pax as it does currently. I think those Dream)liners and A321s are needed to help fill seats on UKs domestic FSC network. Ditto for the A321s.

Vistara's single-class and regular A320NEOs could simply be used for an early fleet renewal, to gradually replace their 13 A320CEOs which are 6 years old, instead of expanding the domestic network.

Ferrying connecting passengers from BOM would offer very marginal upside since most of the destinations probably already have connectivity to ME3 or SQ.

Why add a 4 hr stop for another 45’ to 90’ leg.

Ferrying connecting passengers from BOM would offer very marginal upside since most of the destinations probably already have connectivity to ME3 or SQ.

Only 11 of 30 domestic destinations currently served by UK from DEL have "connectivity" to ME3 or SQ.

Vistara currently has Code-shares with 6 foreign airlines (and interline agreements with another 21 foreign airlines) that operate to DEL., which will benefit pax travelling to those 30 domestic destinations. Not sure why you mention BOM, though. I thought everyone knew Vistara was based in DEL.

However, the bigger picture is: India doesn't live clustered around those 20-odd "international airports" which may or may not have "connectivity" to ME3 or SQ.
This nation of 1 Billion accesses the globe via more than a hundred OTHER domestic airports. Not only Vistara, but even LCCs like 6E and SG understand this reality and are trying out arrangements to tap into this vast market, allowing international transit pax to reach every corner of their domestic network via their hubs at DEL/BOM/BLR/MAA/CCU on a single PNR.

They certainly don't seem to be seeing this option of serving customers as a "very marginal upside".

IMO, more Indians can benefit from code-share arrangements via DEL/BOM/BLR into Tier-II and Tier III cities, than if the government flung open the doors of its two dozen "international airports" in the HOPE that foreign carriers fly in.

IMO, more Indians can benefit from code-share arrangements via DEL/BOM/BLR into Tier-II and Tier III cities, than if the government flung open the doors of its two dozen "international airports" in the HOPE that foreign carriers fly in.

No way! Almost 12-18 months back I spoke to an LH person based in BLR station and she said something very similar to what you said, when the airline was in talks to start MUC-BLR, esp to the EU/NA sector.

From Hindustan Times LiveMint

Overseas flights unlikely before July, airlines told to not take bookings
The government was forced to intervene late Saturday night after Air India restarted bookings
Conditions for lockdown in India are amongst the severest in the world and have helped to control the coronavirus

NEW DELHI: India is unlikely to allow international flights to take off from its land before July as new cases of coronavirus continue to emerge both within and outside the country, according to sources familiar with the development.

“Worldover, and definitely in India too, it has been seen that unrestricted movement of people from overseas was among the key carriers and reasons behind the spread of the virus. Thus, the government will be in no hurry to open the skies for international travel. Domestic travel can of course be accommodated earlier," one source said.

Incidentally, the ministry of civil aviation was forced to intervene late Saturday night after Air India reopened its booking window in the morning the same day. Air India said it had opened bookings for travel from 4 May and 1 June on select domestic and international routes, respectively.

“The Ministry of Civil Aviation clarifies that so far no decision has been taken to open domestic or international operations. Airlines are advised to open their bookings only after a decision in this regard has been taken by the Government," civil aviation minister Hardeep Puri said in a late night tweet Saturday.
Air India’s website was still carrying the advertisement at the time of publishing this news.

India, a country of 1.3 billion people, has implemented the strictest lockdown amongst all the countries in the world. This has been effective in trebling the number of days for doubling of covid-19 cases to almost 10 days from three some weeks ago. The government is thus loath to compromise on international travel ban anytime soon lest its success in controlling the virus suffers a setback, another source said.

Much will also depend on the measures other countries take to control the pandemic on their land. Restarting the flights will thus be in phases, depending on the status of the cases in a particular country and the region around it, the second source said.

trinidadeG wrote:

Ferrying connecting passengers from BOM would offer very marginal upside since most of the destinations probably already have connectivity to ME3 or SQ.

Only 11 of 30 domestic destinations currently served by UK from DEL have "connectivity" to ME3 or SQ.
.................
However, the bigger picture is: India doesn't live clustered around those 20-odd "international airports" which may or may not have "connectivity" to ME3 or SQ.
This nation of 1 Billion accesses the globe via more than a hundred OTHER domestic airports. Not only Vistara, but even LCCs like 6E and SG understand this reality and are trying out arrangements to tap into this vast market, allowing international transit pax to reach every corner of their domestic network via their hubs at DEL/BOM/BLR/MAA/CCU on a single PNR.

They certainly don't seem to be seeing this option of serving customers as a "very marginal upside".

IMO, more Indians can benefit from code-share arrangements via DEL/BOM/BLR into Tier-II and Tier III cities, than if the government flung open the doors of its two dozen "international airports" in the HOPE that foreign carriers fly in.

It is a question of geography. DEL is a great location to transit to places in Punjab, Uttrakhand and such. Probably not so great for places like BDQ/PNQ for instance. At anyrate, part of why I left DEL out is that this will probably be a very short term strategy. Not only is UK the #3 airline after Indigo and Air India, as and when Jewar kick's in, it will probably need a plan B.

Secondly, to me this whole thing is a bit of emotional deal for Ratan Tata, hence my reference to BOM. I wont repeat but I for one happen to agree with Cyrus Mistry's arguments. So far as things unfold, it appears Mistry was right and Tata's are slowly heading in that direction.

IMO, Economics trounces Geography when it comes to Aviation, these days. So far as things unfold, it seems that there will always be people who will ignore the Geography lesson and be willing to fly to BDQ/PNQ via DEL, as long as they find it cost-effective. Which is what airlines, emotional or otherwise, are attempting to cater to.

trinidadeG wrote:

Optimist opinion: I do think that Vistara has some scope to continue taking deliveries as scheduled. Vistara is now the country's only private Full Service Carrier. It is the only Indian partner to offer Premium Economy class to foreign carriers that seek to code-share with an Indian carrier. Surely these things mean something in the Indian transit-pax market?

Vistara can afford to compete with LCCs on the domestic routes by carrying a larger percentage of transiting pax, rather than only flying domestic pax as it does currently. I think those Dream)liners and A321s are needed to help fill seats on UKs domestic FSC network. Ditto for the A321s.

Vistara's single-class and regular A320NEOs could simply be used for an early fleet renewal, to gradually replace their 13 A320CEOs which are 6 years old, instead of expanding the domestic network.

Agree about the last point. I had overlooked that completely.

But I think the global demand itself will take at least 12-18 (S21 there about) months to come back to 2019 levels so if there aren't going to be people to carry in the first place.....

For e.g., in May UA has cut all India service and by the tone of Oscar's letter, it seems June also will be the same. I think they (UK) might be able to deploy the Dreamliner for 1 x LON (I don't think VS is coming back as strongly and given their financial position they might lease them a LHR slot) and 1 x SIN route. Japan seems iffy at this point. The BOM - SIN and DXB (provided there is wiggle room in the seat allotment) may go to the A321 as it has the better J product over the A320 or the B737. Their advertised J product on the A321 is a waste on connecting pax domestically IMHO.

trinidadeG wrote:

IMO, Economics trounces Geography when it comes to Aviation, these days. So far as things unfold, it seems that there will always be people who will ignore the Geography lesson and be willing to fly to BDQ/PNQ via DEL, as long as they find it cost-effective.

Agreed.

Update on United:
In the latest update, United continues to postpone planned service resumption on most long-haul routes to 04JUN20 (US departure), instead of 20MAY20. Despite current listing displays service resumes on 04JUN20, further changes remain likely. Additional service cancellations filed in the latest update, including flights to Asia.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20200418

Newark – Delhi eff 04JUN20 Service resumption, 1 daily 777-200ER
Newark – Mumbai eff 04JUN20 Service resumption, 1 daily 777-300ER
San Francisco – Delhi eff 04JUN20 Service resumption, 3 weekly 787-9

Any idea what Vistara 787 was doing in CCU? Just saw this on FR24

https://www.flightradar24.com/VTI6505/24647fca

unnayan wrote:

Any idea what Vistara 787 was doing in CCU? Just saw this on FR24

https://www.flightradar24.com/VTI6505/24647fca

Cargo flight to/from Didiland.

brgds//Vimanav

VTORD wrote:

For e.g., in May UA has cut all India service and by the tone of Oscar's letter, it seems June also will be the same. I think they (UK) might be able to deploy the Dreamliner for 1 x LON (I don't think VS is coming back as strongly and given their financial position they might lease them a LHR slot) and 1 x SIN route. Japan seems iffy at this point. The BOM - SIN and DXB (provided there is wiggle room in the seat allotment) may go to the A321 as it has the better J product over the A320 or the B737. Their advertised J product on the A321 is a waste on connecting pax domestically IMHO.
.

I believe you are referring to some niche flights out of BOM. We were talking about a full service domestic ops out of DEL where Vistara is a feeder for others. Quiet similar to Alaska Air out of SEA.

I have been seeing EVA 773 at DAC for a few weeks now...is there an EVA plane somehow stranded there and going through some sort of check up flights ? Does anyone got info pertaining this ?

Two SpiceJet lessors in talks to reclaim planes over missed payments - sources

Lessors are willing to take losses as long as they get their aircraft out of India. Everybody remembers the fiasco with Jet Airways when lessors weren't able to re-possess their aircraft immediately for breach of contract. Indians are experts at using the dubious court system to their advantage.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-tw ... 59649.html

edealinfo wrote:

Two SpiceJet lessors in talks to reclaim planes over missed payments - sources

Lessors are willing to take losses as long as they get their aircraft out of India. Everybody remembers the fiasco with Jet Airways when lessors weren't able to re-possess their aircraft immediately for breach of contract. Indians are experts at using the dubious court system to their advantage.

Going ahead, demand will be much lower than pre-covid19 days , atleast for this year. So if SG can get rid of planes without any penalty on lease terminations, good for them. Every airline foresees they'll be smaller when this ends, at least for a while. So Spice doing this is no surprise. They can hope the MAX issues are sorted out this year so that when demand picks up by next year , they can press into service their MAX frames, to keep up with the demand. (assuming markets recover by next year)

Air New Zealand operated it's first flight (a repatriation flight) to India - New Delhi. They'll operate a couple such flights to Delhi & Mumbai to bring back stranded Kiwi's in India.

https://twitter.com/FlyAirNZ/status/125 ... 49152?s=19

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... rom-india/

Has India announced a date for at least a limited resumption of international flights. Many I know are unable to go to India for emergencies (death in the family or serious illness). There was a report that AI would start accepting reservations from June 1st only for MoCA to dispute that. MoCA did not give any dates for resumption.

As it stands there's no concrete plan even for domestic flights, let alone international. And they will probably not allow international as soon as domestic. Some rumors have suggested as late as July for intl resumption.

Hopefully the govt at least allows some repatriation flights at some point. I myself am stranded in the US.

Are the geniuses at Vistara going to ask for an additional 15% discount on their second 787-9 before taking actual delivery. If not, they are no longer geniuses. See the link below. [Separately, Tatas have long been know for honoring contracts even though there were opportunities to get out of them (e..g., DOCOMO). Will market conditions force them to do otherwise?)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1444997

Any update on OCI entry ban, initial ban was up to April 15, was it lifted, subject to availability of flights, of course.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Any update on OCI entry ban, initial ban was up to April 15, was it lifted, subject to availability of flights, of course.

No it was pushed to May with the lockdown.

According to this article, "Geniuses" are working feverishly, trying to keep cost down while planning the phased resumption of services...

Network Planning – a fine blend of Art and Science

What must the network planners be doing currently? Well while airlines are grounded, plans are still afoot to start services in phases and the pick and choose from the network means, trying to fit in the most optimum schedule in the minimum number of aircraft to keep the costs low.

trinidadeG wrote:

According to this article, "Geniuses" are working feverishly, trying to keep cost down while planning the phased resumption of services...

Network Planning – a fine blend of Art and Science

What must the network planners be doing currently? Well while airlines are grounded, plans are still afoot to start services in phases and the pick and choose from the network means, trying to fit in the most optimum schedule in the minimum number of aircraft to keep the costs low.

The link you sent is all blah blah. Vistara will secure much more by insisting on an additional 15% discount to take delivery on all aircraft it hasn't taken delivery on.

vadodara wrote:

I believe you are referring to some niche flights out of BOM. We were talking about a full service domestic ops out of DEL where Vistara is a feeder for others. Quiet similar to Alaska Air out of SEA.

I am not talking about niche routes only. I am suggesting the global demand (and India's domestic market is not immune to this) will likely remain suppressed over at least the next 12 months. Business travel will remain slow to comeback. Many companies have discovered the convenience of WFH/Remote work, and the travel categorized as non-essential will grow. Our "normal" has changed.

In such a scenario, UK will find expansion (both intl + dom) challenging. And their expansion plans while not completely shelved, will be scaled back significantly. To the extent that aircraft deliveries esp., the Dreamliners will be reevaluated. The reason I am optimistic about LON is that it is the one route that will bounce back with demand vis-a-vis India quicker than any other. And IF VS collapses, UK could fill that void at LHR given that the B789s will be DEL based.

So I do agree with @trinidadeg that they could absorb the NEOs (A320) as a quicker replacement for the CEOs domestically. But they have limited options on where to send the A321, hence scale back on some of those deliveries as well.

Yeah, global demand will be suppressed, but i also think that global supply is reducing, what with many airlines ceasing operations and even more airlines seeing themselves shrink their operations. Whether some indian carrier also suspends/shrinks operations remains to be seen.

IMO, the fallout of airlines collapsing/shrinking will be that long haul travellers will now have lesser choices between any two given city-pairs, and prices thereof will surely go up. A (relatively) small airline like UK will merely need to identify a couple of such routes ex-DEL that can offer it a "foot in the door".

IMO, Vistara NEEDS to have at-least two 789 to start long haul ops. One cannot expect an FSC to sustain a daily ten-hour-long flight like, say, DEL-LHR only on the basis of only one airframe. A single AOG event scenario stands to wreck their schedule and destroy their reputation. They will need more airframes in their fleet to maintain a back-up plan. So, I don't see them choosing to defer any deliveries from their own side just yet.

The A321 in such an AOG event, of course, can be substituted by one of their A320NEOs if push comes to shove, but it simply does make business-sense to have another 'similarly-configured' A321neo airframe available as a backup.

That said, Airbus has already slashed its production-rates by a third in April, and Boeings 787 production rate may be halved so I think Vistara's new-aircraft induction plans are going to be delayed anyway.

Opportunity to bid for 100% equity in Air India extended to June 30; to sweeten the deal, buyers asked to only absorb $3.5 B in debt

Welcome to la-la land....
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/gov ... 28536.html

edealinfo wrote:

Opportunity to bid for 100% equity in Air India extended to June 30; to sweeten the deal, buyers asked to only absorb $3.5 B in debt

Welcome to la-la land....
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/gov ... 28536.html

Why is GoI insistent on getting bids now, they wont get any meaningful, if any bids now, especially most companies/airlines are uncertain how the traffic will recover. After full resumption of flights, both domestic and international, and after running for a few months, perhaps early next year they can invite bids.

Dear Moderator, didn't put any thread for May Indian Aviation thread ?

Apologies and thanks for the reminder, please continue your discussion and to ad your comments here:

Indian Aviation Thread - May 2020

Thread will be locked.