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jomur
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:30 pm

gunnerman wrote:
jomur wrote:
gunnerman wrote:

With the crisis set to continue no airline is safe. Regardless of how much cash it has just about every airline will go bankrupt by May unless it gets help, so everyone is in survival mode these days. BA is no different and it will get help by reclaiming from the UK government 80% of salaries, capped at £2,500pm, of the over 30,000 recently laid off employees.


But BA's employees are going to get more than 80%. And why do do assume that even BA/IAG will go bust when they have categorically said they have enough cash and reserves to last a lot longer and don't need a government bail out. They don't have a massive bill for aircraft to pay as most are paid off.

How come you think that BA being able to reclaim 80% of over 30,000 employees' salaries isn't a form of bailout? Furthermore any company whose business has fallen drastically is in trouble. As for aircraft: BA has 82 (about 29% of the fleet) on off balance sheet operating leases and finance leases of £4bn secured on aircraft and other assets, so that's not exactly "most are paid off".


Because its available to just about every company in the UK without strings at the moment and any company would be silly not to take advantage of it. Virgin could have done the same but as far as I know they haven't and their employees are still on unpaid leave.
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:26 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Let Delta save it! Enough with begging the government!

BA controlling LHR is enough. Virgin doesn't contribute anything and is not needed. Totally obsolete.

Same way Air France controls Paris, KLM Amsterdam and Lufthansa Frankfurt and Munich.


It's hard to take your post seriously, but as we are all stuck in the house and not allowed to visit the pub, I'll humor your 'educated' post.

'Let Delta save it' - DL have to look after themselves first. The fact Virgin has been around for so long does prove the market is there for a second carrier, cherry picking key routes to offer healthy competition.

Moving on.... Imagine the prices BA would charge if VS and other competition wasn't around? Also their service standards wouldn't be as high as they currently are, in both frequency, onboard product and service etc. Competition is healthy, and its better for consumers.

As for Controlling the airport, that's down to the airport operator themselves... not the airlines. :smile:
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 326
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Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:28 pm

jomur wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
jomur wrote:

.


Because its available to just about every company in the UK without strings at the moment and any company would be silly not to take advantage of it. Virgin could have done the same but as far as I know they haven't and their employees are still on unpaid leave.



Initially they asked staff to take 8 weeks unpaid, to ensure the survival of the airline. However now they are on 80% as the government announced the job retention scheme after Virgin planned the 8 weeks unpaid which their staff is eligible for.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:37 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Let Delta save it! Enough with begging the government!

BA controlling LHR is enough. Virgin doesn't contribute anything and is not needed. Totally obsolete.

Same way Air France controls Paris, KLM Amsterdam and Lufthansa Frankfurt and Munich.


It's hard to take your post seriously, but as we are all stuck in the house and not allowed to visit the pub, I'll humor your 'educated' post.

'Let Delta save it' - DL have to look after themselves first. The fact Virgin has been around for so long does prove the market is there for a second carrier, cherry picking key routes to offer healthy competition.

Moving on.... Imagine the prices BA would charge if VS and other competition wasn't around? Also their service standards wouldn't be as high as they currently are, in both frequency, onboard product and service etc. Competition is healthy, and its better for consumers.

As for Controlling the airport, that's down to the airport operator themselves... not the airlines. :smile:

Doesn’t this assume that United and Delta won’t be competing and presumably Norwegian have collapsed? BA have very few destinations where they price gouge, Bermuda springs to mind. There’s usually at least one other worthy competitor.

Virgin were keeping BA fair for years but they became less and less relevant post Bermuda II.
 
FSDan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:37 am

tphuang wrote:
VS has one asset that is still worth some money. That's its slots. Sell them to whoever is willing to buy, be it British gov't or BA or someone else. Find a different strategy to go after that.

Other than people here thinking that they won't do as well financially without those slots, there haven't been a single worthy argument so far on why it should not sell its slots to save itself.


I don't think there needs to be another argument - the fact that they won't make money without the LHR slots should be enough. It's like a baker selling his oven so he can stay in business... Then what?
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alfa164
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:49 am

Clackers wrote:
Hopefully SRB will invest his own money and then buy out BA.


I would love to see the brown spots on Willie Walsh's pants after that!

:lol:

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
VS has one asset that is still worth some money. That's its slots. Sell them to whoever is willing to buy, be it British gov't or BA or someone else. Find a different strategy to go after that. Other than people here thinking that they won't do as well financially without those slots, there haven't been a single worthy argument so far on why it should not sell its slots to save itself.

I don't think there needs to be another argument - the fact that they won't make money without the LHR slots should be enough. It's like a baker selling his oven so he can stay in business... Then what?


Ten bucks says Sr. Huang wants VS to sell those slots to JetBlue. Want to bet?

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
BA777FO
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:43 am

oxonrow wrote:
Y is dismal, on EU flights probably the worst in the industry now


Worst in the industry?! It might not be full of freebies but this one statements destroys any credibility of anything you have to say about BA.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5315
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:47 am

alfa164 wrote:
Clackers wrote:
Hopefully SRB will invest his own money and then buy out BA.


I would love to see the brown spots on Willie Walsh's pants after that!

:lol:

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
VS has one asset that is still worth some money. That's its slots. Sell them to whoever is willing to buy, be it British gov't or BA or someone else. Find a different strategy to go after that. Other than people here thinking that they won't do as well financially without those slots, there haven't been a single worthy argument so far on why it should not sell its slots to save itself.

I don't think there needs to be another argument - the fact that they won't make money without the LHR slots should be enough. It's like a baker selling his oven so he can stay in business... Then what?


Ten bucks says Sr. Huang wants VS to sell those slots to JetBlue. Want to bet?

;)

Actually I said earlier in this thread that they can sell the slots to ba. So you want to send me the money now?

Also since they haven’t made money with lhr slots during good times totally defeat that argument.
 
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oxonrow
Posts: 62
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:56 am

BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Y is dismal, on EU flights probably the worst in the industry now


Worst in the industry?! It might not be full of freebies but this one statements destroys any credibility of anything you have to say about BA.


Compared to legacy carriers ex LHR I think that's fair: AF/KL, LH, OS, LX, SK, AY, LO, et al not to mention TK, can't think of any other that gives you nothing, goes out of its way to remind you where you are in the pecking order (boarding groups k'zillion), and insult-to-injury treats you to an M&S catalogue as if we were all aspiring British middle class (it's tacky, some think). Yes, I think there is no worse that I've been on ex LHR. The increasing number of mixed fleet new hires is also starting to show, the quality of BA crews stood out in the past, that's not only no longer the case, the behaviour and attitude are now often actually questionable. The older crew members are sometimes embarrassed, the ones I know from flying a lot admit that too. I think it's been a terrible mishandling of the brand and it is because BA does not have to care, the LHR situation is unique and lets it get away with it while spinning a PR machine re competition and sustainability.

Ex LCY is still OK, both in terms of the product (not great but OK) and the crews -- the new hires seem to have healthier attitude there.

Of course one can argue about E2 or FR, but I don't raise a fuss if the ticket to Berlin cost GBP 20-60 vs BA's 200-300 easy. Backdoor protectionism of BA has not been good for the flying public. VS going down will make it worse.
 
Opus99
Posts: 1065
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:58 pm

Last week, accountancy firm EY – hired by the Government to assist its principal adviser Rothschild – ran a slide rule across Virgin’s submission. It ticked all the boxes required by Sunak; it had explored all other options and a state bailout was the only one left.

Virgin’s case was passed on to Rothschild who opened talks with the airline’s management team, led by Shai Weiss, the chief executive, to thrash out a deal. But agreeing a bailout that did not leave the British taxpayer at risk proved problematic.

“Financially, its starting point is relatively weak,” says James Goodall, an analyst at broker Redburn. Goodall estimates its net debt to earnings ratio is 5.8x. This contrasts with IAG, for example, whose ratio is 1.4x.

In addition, Branson’s decision to lease rather than own aircraft has come back to haunt him. There was little security to put up against a state loan. The policy of owning few assets meant there was little to mortgage off, sources say.

Finally, ringing in the ears of a slew of Rothschild bankers – “like the cast of Ben Hur,” according to one insider – was the Government mantra that the taxpayer would not prop up failing businesses,


This from a telegraph article that I will link below. It doesn’t seem to be looking good.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -finances/
 
jomur
Posts: 360
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:15 pm

oxonrow wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Y is dismal, on EU flights probably the worst in the industry now


Worst in the industry?! It might not be full of freebies but this one statements destroys any credibility of anything you have to say about BA.


Compared to legacy carriers ex LHR I think that's fair: AF/KL, LH, OS, LX, SK, AY, LO, et al not to mention TK, can't think of any other that gives you nothing, goes out of its way to remind you where you are in the pecking order (boarding groups k'zillion), and insult-to-injury treats you to an M&S catalogue as if we were all aspiring British middle class (it's tacky, some think). Yes, I think there is no worse that I've been on ex LHR. The increasing number of mixed fleet new hires is also starting to show, the quality of BA crews stood out in the past, that's not only no longer the case, the behaviour and attitude are now often actually questionable. The older crew members are sometimes embarrassed, the ones I know from flying a lot admit that too. I think it's been a terrible mishandling of the brand and it is because BA does not have to care, the LHR situation is unique and lets it get away with it while spinning a PR machine re competition and sustainability.

Ex LCY is still OK, both in terms of the product (not great but OK) and the crews -- the new hires seem to have healthier attitude there.

Of course one can argue about E2 or FR, but I don't raise a fuss if the ticket to Berlin cost GBP 20-60 vs BA's 200-300 easy. Backdoor protectionism of BA has not been good for the flying public. VS going down will make it worse.


If VS flew to Europe then your arguments might have some merit but since they don't…..
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:16 pm

jomur wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Worst in the industry?! It might not be full of freebies but this one statements destroys any credibility of anything you have to say about BA.


Compared to legacy carriers ex LHR I think that's fair: AF/KL, LH, OS, LX, SK, AY, LO, et al not to mention TK, can't think of any other that gives you nothing, goes out of its way to remind you where you are in the pecking order (boarding groups k'zillion), and insult-to-injury treats you to an M&S catalogue as if we were all aspiring British middle class (it's tacky, some think). Yes, I think there is no worse that I've been on ex LHR. The increasing number of mixed fleet new hires is also starting to show, the quality of BA crews stood out in the past, that's not only no longer the case, the behaviour and attitude are now often actually questionable. The older crew members are sometimes embarrassed, the ones I know from flying a lot admit that too. I think it's been a terrible mishandling of the brand and it is because BA does not have to care, the LHR situation is unique and lets it get away with it while spinning a PR machine re competition and sustainability.

Ex LCY is still OK, both in terms of the product (not great but OK) and the crews -- the new hires seem to have healthier attitude there.

Of course one can argue about E2 or FR, but I don't raise a fuss if the ticket to Berlin cost GBP 20-60 vs BA's 200-300 easy. Backdoor protectionism of BA has not been good for the flying public. VS going down will make it worse.


If VS flew to Europe then your arguments might have some merit but since they don't…..


There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
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Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:41 pm

oxonrow wrote:
jomur wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

Compared to legacy carriers ex LHR I think that's fair: AF/KL, LH, OS, LX, SK, AY, LO, et al not to mention TK, can't think of any other that gives you nothing, goes out of its way to remind you where you are in the pecking order (boarding groups k'zillion), and insult-to-injury treats you to an M&S catalogue as if we were all aspiring British middle class (it's tacky, some think). Yes, I think there is no worse that I've been on ex LHR. The increasing number of mixed fleet new hires is also starting to show, the quality of BA crews stood out in the past, that's not only no longer the case, the behaviour and attitude are now often actually questionable. The older crew members are sometimes embarrassed, the ones I know from flying a lot admit that too. I think it's been a terrible mishandling of the brand and it is because BA does not have to care, the LHR situation is unique and lets it get away with it while spinning a PR machine re competition and sustainability.

Ex LCY is still OK, both in terms of the product (not great but OK) and the crews -- the new hires seem to have healthier attitude there.

Of course one can argue about E2 or FR, but I don't raise a fuss if the ticket to Berlin cost GBP 20-60 vs BA's 200-300 easy. Backdoor protectionism of BA has not been good for the flying public. VS going down will make it worse.


If VS flew to Europe then your arguments might have some merit but since they don't…..


There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).

Meh, I have flown both BA and VS. Judging from my last VS flight (summer 2019 from LAX to MAN) I would say the experience was not much different to a BA long haul from the US west coast to the UK. I would say they are both good carriers, VS seems to be a tad over hyped from my personal experience.

Either way, hoping everyone at VA/BA/U2, etc get to keep their wings after this is all said and done.


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Revelation
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:22 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Goodall estimates its net debt to earnings ratio is 5.8x. This contrasts with IAG, for example, whose ratio is 1.4x.

In addition, Branson’s decision to lease rather than own aircraft has come back to haunt him. There was little security to put up against a state loan. The policy of owning few assets meant there was little to mortgage off, sources say.

I'm not sure buying aircraft would have helped much. The older aircraft would be largely paid for but of little value so could not secure a big loan. The newer aircraft would be adding to the poor debt to earnings ratio and with little of the principal paid off they too would not be able to secure a big loan.

The timing of this is terrible for VA since they really are in the middle of a transition period. I think a lot of things for them were turning around in terms of their relationship with DL bringing better opportunities and improvement of their hard and soft product as new planes were introduced.

Unfortunately for them they've had a many-years long run of poor form to get out from under.
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:55 pm

chepos wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
jomur wrote:

If VS flew to Europe then your arguments might have some merit but since they don't…..


There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).

Meh, I have flown both BA and VS. Judging from my last VS flight (summer 2019 from LAX to MAN) I would say the experience was not much different to a BA long haul from the US west coast to the UK. I would say they are both good carriers, VS seems to be a tad over hyped from my personal experience.

Either way, hoping everyone at VA/BA/U2, etc get to keep their wings after this is all said and done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree that VS is overhyped, it also slipped. I find that the US carriers, especially DL, really did improve substantially, now actually may have an edge over BA/VS. My experience is skewed as I usually only fly JFK (often) and that route gets very tired BA aircraft and the crews don't love getting out of bed for that one specifically it seems to me. VS has been better, at least since the A350 is on it. I regret that BA has taken such a dip, I hope after Cruz there will be some soul-searching. Economic shifts might also force the airline to think about the Y passenger -- though without the third runway and without the DL/VS et al JV to compete with this is unlikely.
 
Opus99
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:18 pm

oxonrow wrote:
chepos wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).

Meh, I have flown both BA and VS. Judging from my last VS flight (summer 2019 from LAX to MAN) I would say the experience was not much different to a BA long haul from the US west coast to the UK. I would say they are both good carriers, VS seems to be a tad over hyped from my personal experience.

Either way, hoping everyone at VA/BA/U2, etc get to keep their wings after this is all said and done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree that VS is overhyped, it also slipped. I find that the US carriers, especially DL, really did improve substantially, now actually may have an edge over BA/VS. My experience is skewed as I usually only fly JFK (often) and that route gets very tired BA aircraft and the crews don't love getting out of bed for that one specifically it seems to me. VS has been better, at least since the A350 is on it. I regret that BA has taken such a dip, I hope after Cruz there will be some soul-searching. Economic shifts might also force the airline to think about the Y passenger -- though without the third runway and without the DL/VS et al JV to compete with this is unlikely.

I think this Cruz story is a bit tired now, the good stuff that have happened in the past few years at BA was it not the same Cruz that was responsible? a brand new business seat that replaced the old one that had been sitting there for 13 years and expired about 7 years ago was finally changed under Cruz, the investment in lounges, the investment in food in all classes. was that not Cruz? bear in mind BA's plan for a new business seat when Cruz came in was STILL 2-4-2 but with more space in between the seats so you could have direct aisle access but he scrapped that and then introduced club suite and there are still introducing a brand new first class on the 777X. Has he made some odd cuts yes but do the improvements balance them out, I think yes. People should get over this BA re-finding its 'identity' it has far moved on from whatever that identity was.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:36 pm

Opus99 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
chepos wrote:
Meh, I have flown both BA and VS. Judging from my last VS flight (summer 2019 from LAX to MAN) I would say the experience was not much different to a BA long haul from the US west coast to the UK. I would say they are both good carriers, VS seems to be a tad over hyped from my personal experience.

Either way, hoping everyone at VA/BA/U2, etc get to keep their wings after this is all said and done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree that VS is overhyped, it also slipped. I find that the US carriers, especially DL, really did improve substantially, now actually may have an edge over BA/VS. My experience is skewed as I usually only fly JFK (often) and that route gets very tired BA aircraft and the crews don't love getting out of bed for that one specifically it seems to me. VS has been better, at least since the A350 is on it. I regret that BA has taken such a dip, I hope after Cruz there will be some soul-searching. Economic shifts might also force the airline to think about the Y passenger -- though without the third runway and without the DL/VS et al JV to compete with this is unlikely.

I think this Cruz story is a bit tired now, the good stuff that have happened in the past few years at BA was it not the same Cruz that was responsible? a brand new business seat that replaced the old one that had been sitting there for 13 years and expired about 7 years ago was finally changed under Cruz, the investment in lounges, the investment in food in all classes. was that not Cruz? bear in mind BA's plan for a new business seat when Cruz came in was STILL 2-4-2 but with more space in between the seats so you could have direct aisle access but he scrapped that and then introduced club suite and there are still introducing a brand new first class on the 777X. Has he made some odd cuts yes but do the improvements balance them out, I think yes. People should get over this BA re-finding its 'identity' it has far moved on from whatever that identity was.


The point I am making is specific. BA is focusing on the customer upfront, neglecting us in the back. This is the business model, and it is driven by the slot constraint issue at LHR. Food upgrade in Y has been largely cosmetic, more of PR stunt really, the quality of the meals is lower than it used to be. Again, I fly to JFK quite often and that is my experience -- it used to be the best among the UK and US carriers. Disparity between the front and the back of the plane is growing, and we can all see it differently, but I see it as a negative development (that true more generally of course). It also seems to me that J and F pricing is way off the charts, something BA gets away with because competition is constrained by the absence of slots. New seat or not. VS folding will likely make it worse. Unless the crisis has deeper effects that we can predict now, there may be a more general shift.

I really liked BA and despair over what's been happening -- I don't think I am alone, even if responses here seem to suggest otherwise. Open a British newspaper and you'll see the extent of it.
Last edited by oxonrow on Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
It’s not. They are facing collapse at this point in time. Other UK airlines like BA and easyJet are not currently stating administration in the face because they have large reserves at the moment. In a few months could they? Very possibly but BA will most likely be bailed out if it needs to be. Virgin the government isn’t too hot on bailing In 5 or 6 month, when BA/U2/FR run out of money, there is at least a good case to rescue these airlines since they are the most viable airlines left. Until then, VS can go sell its LHR slots first. It hasn't done all it can as long as it still holds to those slots.


I’m disregarding what BA and easyJet say about not needing support. Although that may be true at the moment, as you say it isn’t an infinite position for as long as they’re not operating flights, and if we’re still in this position in 3-6 months time it wouldn’t surprise me if they go to the government. Both airline’s shareholders will only tolerate self-sufficiency for so long and certainly won’t tolerate doing nothing in the meantime, hence why one of those airline’s major shareholders (rightly or wrongly) is wanting an order for new planes cancelled.

As for Ryanair, shouldn’t it be the Irish government who they turn to for support?

chonetsao wrote:
How about stop VS paying Richard Branson the royalty fees in millions of pounds per year for using the name of Virgin as the first step?


That’s already going to happen...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... s-11967504
 
Opus99
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:44 pm

oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

I agree that VS is overhyped, it also slipped. I find that the US carriers, especially DL, really did improve substantially, now actually may have an edge over BA/VS. My experience is skewed as I usually only fly JFK (often) and that route gets very tired BA aircraft and the crews don't love getting out of bed for that one specifically it seems to me. VS has been better, at least since the A350 is on it. I regret that BA has taken such a dip, I hope after Cruz there will be some soul-searching. Economic shifts might also force the airline to think about the Y passenger -- though without the third runway and without the DL/VS et al JV to compete with this is unlikely.

I think this Cruz story is a bit tired now, the good stuff that have happened in the past few years at BA was it not the same Cruz that was responsible? a brand new business seat that replaced the old one that had been sitting there for 13 years and expired about 7 years ago was finally changed under Cruz, the investment in lounges, the investment in food in all classes. was that not Cruz? bear in mind BA's plan for a new business seat when Cruz came in was STILL 2-4-2 but with more space in between the seats so you could have direct aisle access but he scrapped that and then introduced club suite and there are still introducing a brand new first class on the 777X. Has he made some odd cuts yes but do the improvements balance them out, I think yes. People should get over this BA re-finding its 'identity' it has far moved on from whatever that identity was.


The point I am making is specific. BA is focusing on the customer upfront, neglecting us in the back. This is the business model, and it is driven by the slot constraint issue at LHR. Food upgrade in Y has been largely cosmetic, more of PR stunt really, the quality of the meals is lower than it used to be. Again, I fly to JFK quite often and that is my experience -- it used to be the best among the UK and US carriers. Disparity between the front and the back of the plane is growing, and we can all see it differently, but I see it as a negative development. It also seems to me that J and F pricing is way off the charts, something BA gets away with because competition is constrained by the slot issue. New seat or not. Absence of VS will likely make it worse. Unless the crisis has deeper effects that we can predict now, there may be a more general shift.

I really liked BA and despair that's been happening -- I don't think I am alone, even if responses here see to suggest otherwise. Open a British newspaper and you'll the extent of it.


I'm a frequent flier of the airline as well, and I've flown economy enough in recent times to know that It doesn't lag behind nor does it stand out compares to what crosses the Atlantic. and I actually like the food compared to some others, especially virgin (in economy at least). British Newspapers over exaggerate things, I know because I live here. The reality is I don't particularly know what other airlines are doing in their long haul ECONONMY class cabin that become so industry leading that BA isn't doing. and if JFK is your only BA route I would hardly use that as a judgement for the whole airline given their oldest aircrafts (albeit refreshed) operate that route.
 
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oxonrow
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:04 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:14 pm

Opus99 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
I think this Cruz story is a bit tired now, the good stuff that have happened in the past few years at BA was it not the same Cruz that was responsible? a brand new business seat that replaced the old one that had been sitting there for 13 years and expired about 7 years ago was finally changed under Cruz, the investment in lounges, the investment in food in all classes. was that not Cruz? bear in mind BA's plan for a new business seat when Cruz came in was STILL 2-4-2 but with more space in between the seats so you could have direct aisle access but he scrapped that and then introduced club suite and there are still introducing a brand new first class on the 777X. Has he made some odd cuts yes but do the improvements balance them out, I think yes. People should get over this BA re-finding its 'identity' it has far moved on from whatever that identity was.


The point I am making is specific. BA is focusing on the customer upfront, neglecting us in the back. This is the business model, and it is driven by the slot constraint issue at LHR. Food upgrade in Y has been largely cosmetic, more of PR stunt really, the quality of the meals is lower than it used to be. Again, I fly to JFK quite often and that is my experience -- it used to be the best among the UK and US carriers. Disparity between the front and the back of the plane is growing, and we can all see it differently, but I see it as a negative development. It also seems to me that J and F pricing is way off the charts, something BA gets away with because competition is constrained by the slot issue. New seat or not. Absence of VS will likely make it worse. Unless the crisis has deeper effects that we can predict now, there may be a more general shift.

I really liked BA and despair that's been happening -- I don't think I am alone, even if responses here see to suggest otherwise. Open a British newspaper and you'll the extent of it.


I'm a frequent flier of the airline as well, and I've flown economy enough in recent times to know that It doesn't lag behind nor does it stand out compares to what crosses the Atlantic. and I actually like the food compared to some others, especially virgin (in economy at least). British Newspapers over exaggerate things, I know because I live here. The reality is I don't particularly know what other airlines are doing in their long haul ECONONMY class cabin that become so industry leading that BA isn't doing. and if JFK is your only BA route I would hardly use that as a judgement for the whole airline given their oldest aircrafts (albeit refreshed) operate that route.


Yes, agreed, I said it above, JFK is really the pits, both in terms of the mix of 744s and 772s, but also I found the crews are not terribly motivated (not sure if all US get mixed fleet, but JFK must not see many bids, they are a particular bunch on most crossings, not universally true of BA overall).

DL really surprised me the last few times I've flown them. Also an elderly family member crosses the pond once a month, and DL wins in terms of handling hands down with her every time. DL/VS are putting up a good fight for a share of that traffic, my sense is that they know that what they can't get in terms of frequency they must make up for in quality. That's hopefully keeping BA on its toes, but more so upfront. Agreed that VS is mixed bag, DL has been more consistent.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 580
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:03 pm

oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
oxonrow wrote:

The point I am making is specific. BA is focusing on the customer upfront, neglecting us in the back. This is the business model, and it is driven by the slot constraint issue at LHR. Food upgrade in Y has been largely cosmetic, more of PR stunt really, the quality of the meals is lower than it used to be. Again, I fly to JFK quite often and that is my experience -- it used to be the best among the UK and US carriers. Disparity between the front and the back of the plane is growing, and we can all see it differently, but I see it as a negative development. It also seems to me that J and F pricing is way off the charts, something BA gets away with because competition is constrained by the slot issue. New seat or not. Absence of VS will likely make it worse. Unless the crisis has deeper effects that we can predict now, there may be a more general shift.

I really liked BA and despair that's been happening -- I don't think I am alone, even if responses here see to suggest otherwise. Open a British newspaper and you'll the extent of it.


I'm a frequent flier of the airline as well, and I've flown economy enough in recent times to know that It doesn't lag behind nor does it stand out compares to what crosses the Atlantic. and I actually like the food compared to some others, especially virgin (in economy at least). British Newspapers over exaggerate things, I know because I live here. The reality is I don't particularly know what other airlines are doing in their long haul ECONONMY class cabin that become so industry leading that BA isn't doing. and if JFK is your only BA route I would hardly use that as a judgement for the whole airline given their oldest aircrafts (albeit refreshed) operate that route.


Yes, agreed, I said it above, JFK is really the pits, both in terms of the mix of 744s and 772s, but also I found the crews are not terribly motivated (not sure if all US get mixed fleet, but JFK must not see many bids, they are a particular bunch on most crossings, not universally true of BA overall).

DL really surprised me the last few times I've flown them. Also an elderly family member crosses the pond once a month, and DL wins in terms of handling hands down with her every time. DL/VS are putting up a good fight for a share of that traffic, my sense is that they know that what they can't get in terms of frequency they must make up for in quality. That's hopefully keeping BA on its toes, but more so upfront. Agreed that VS is mixed bag, DL has been more consistent.


You complain about Mixed Fleet but JFK is a route still flown by Worldwide. The JFK route will be one of the first to consistently get the new J seat too. I gather you usually travel in economy - when was the last time you flew BA? To JFK the meal service is a 4 course meal, alcohol is still free throughout the flight, not just with meals, ice creams are served as a mid-flight snack and afternoon tea is served before landing. On return flights there's dinner again plus breakfast before landing. There are new blankets and pillows in World Traveller and have actually always found BA/AA price competitive whenever I've looked across all cabins.

One of the problems regarding assistance of elderly passengers or those requiring help witb mobolity is that in the UK the service is provided by the airport through a third party and not the airline, that's the law. Unfortunately it's one of the airline's biggest gripes about the service HAL offer at Heathrow.

The thing is, even if Virgin failed, Delta will still be keeping BA honest on the route. United is also a worthy competitor to Newark. If Virgin failed, little would change in the market and that's the thing that will make the UK government think twice about jumping in to save it - the parallels with Flybe and Thomas Cook are there.
 
Opus99
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:29 pm

BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

I'm a frequent flier of the airline as well, and I've flown economy enough in recent times to know that It doesn't lag behind nor does it stand out compares to what crosses the Atlantic. and I actually like the food compared to some others, especially virgin (in economy at least). British Newspapers over exaggerate things, I know because I live here. The reality is I don't particularly know what other airlines are doing in their long haul ECONONMY class cabin that become so industry leading that BA isn't doing. and if JFK is your only BA route I would hardly use that as a judgement for the whole airline given their oldest aircrafts (albeit refreshed) operate that route.


Yes, agreed, I said it above, JFK is really the pits, both in terms of the mix of 744s and 772s, but also I found the crews are not terribly motivated (not sure if all US get mixed fleet, but JFK must not see many bids, they are a particular bunch on most crossings, not universally true of BA overall).

DL really surprised me the last few times I've flown them. Also an elderly family member crosses the pond once a month, and DL wins in terms of handling hands down with her every time. DL/VS are putting up a good fight for a share of that traffic, my sense is that they know that what they can't get in terms of frequency they must make up for in quality. That's hopefully keeping BA on its toes, but more so upfront. Agreed that VS is mixed bag, DL has been more consistent.


You complain about Mixed Fleet but JFK is a route still flown by Worldwide. The JFK route will be one of the first to consistently get the new J seat too. I gather you usually travel in economy - when was the last time you flew BA? To JFK the meal service is a 4 course meal, alcohol is still free throughout the flight, not just with meals, ice creams are served as a mid-flight snack and afternoon tea is served before landing. On return flights there's dinner again plus breakfast before landing. There are new blankets and pillows in World Traveller and have actually always found BA/AA price competitive whenever I've looked across all cabins.

One of the problems regarding assistance of elderly passengers or those requiring help witb mobolity is that in the UK the service is provided by the airport through a third party and not the airline, that's the law. Unfortunately it's one of the airline's biggest gripes about the service HAL offer at Heathrow.

The thing is, even if Virgin failed, Delta will still be keeping BA honest on the route. United is also a worthy competitor to Newark. If Virgin failed, little would change in the market and that's the thing that will make the UK government think twice about jumping in to save it - the parallels with Flybe and Thomas Cook are there.

My views exactly. BAs main competition across the Atlantic remain Delta and United and they are very much worthy competition and give BA enough run for its money.
 
jomur
Posts: 360
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:36 pm

oxonrow wrote:
There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).


VS could have been flying to Europe for years but they don't and even before this crisis wouldn't have either in the future so that arguement doesnt cut it.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:02 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
So... 5 pages in, and we’re all still debating this issue.
It’s been stated several times up thread why there is little support for a VS bail out.

I’m sure absolutely no one wants to see anyone out of work, But the problem is SRB .
He knows it , everyone on here knows it, and many of the general public know it too.
Good luck to VS I say, but the money has to come from the deep pockets is SRB , with DL also chipping in their fair share too.


with DL being a publicly traded company on the NYSE? Just How much could they invest without somebody causing "fire at their House" ??
Delta has a Board of directors and shareholder's too! One of their TOP labor groups ALPA has kept quiet up to now. But?
How much could they REALLY invest to keep VS?? you can damn sure BET? NO Delta Pilot will be Laid off and Delta still own shares and supports VS,
And that? I'd bet good money ON!!
 
FSDan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:03 pm

tphuang wrote:
Also since they haven’t made money with lhr slots during good times totally defeat that argument.


VS has made money in the recent past while holding LHR slots, so that's not a strong counterargument. Also, we don't have a breakdown of what their most profitable and least profitable routes are. For all we know, their losses the last two years could have been due to competition with Thomas Cook at MAN (where the two airlines increasingly went head-to-head before TCX went under), competition with Norwegian at LGW, and having to unexpectedly park 789s for long stretches while working out RR engine issues. Unless you have solid proof that their LHR ops have been more of a financial drag on the organization than their MAN and LGW ops have been, I don't see a strong argument for dropping LHR and focusing on lower fare traffic at LGW and MAN.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:19 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Let Delta save it! Enough with begging the government!

BA controlling LHR is enough. Virgin doesn't contribute anything and is not needed. Totally obsolete.

Same way Air France controls Paris, KLM Amsterdam and Lufthansa Frankfurt and Munich.


It's hard to take your post seriously, but as we are all stuck in the house and not allowed to visit the pub, I'll humor your 'educated' post.

'Let Delta save it' - DL have to look after themselves first. The fact Virgin has been around for so long does prove the market is there for a second carrier, cherry picking key routes to offer healthy competition.

Moving on.... Imagine the prices BA would charge if VS and other competition wasn't around? Also their service standards wouldn't be as high as they currently are, in both frequency, onboard product and service etc. Competition is healthy, and its better for consumers.

As for Controlling the airport, that's down to the airport operator themselves... not the airlines. :smile:

what gives you the impression that even with VS around the Prices would be any lower and the service any better? I've seen VS's airplanes at SFO and I didn't see anything particularly awesome bout them or their Cabins except some of their comely Flight attendants ( and quite a few were Knockouts) . Other than that?
they weren't much to write home about. I was also in DC touring congress when SRB railed at congress to let him OWN or Control a USA Based domestic Airline. A Senator Lloyd Benson asked? Can I or any ONE of us own British airways? Branson replied? NO. Then Want is your Basis for addressing US?!? Branson mumbled some statement then left the podium. I wish I had known he was going to be there as I'd have sure recorded the speech. I was there to escort my Daughter's High school class in Govt;. as she spent the following summer there working as a congressional Page. Some of the Congress people did Not treat him well I understand.
 
tphuang
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:29 pm

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Also since they haven’t made money with lhr slots during good times totally defeat that argument.


VS has made money in the recent past while holding LHR slots, so that's not a strong counterargument. Also, we don't have a breakdown of what their most profitable and least profitable routes are. For all we know, their losses the last two years could have been due to competition with Thomas Cook at MAN (where the two airlines increasingly went head-to-head before TCX went under), competition with Norwegian at LGW, and having to unexpectedly park 789s for long stretches while working out RR engine issues. Unless you have solid proof that their LHR ops have been more of a financial drag on the organization than their MAN and LGW ops have been, I don't see a strong argument for dropping LHR and focusing on lower fare traffic at LGW and MAN.


I don't need any proof. They are the one asking for money, so they should be the one to show that they have exhausted all avenues and are a viable business. All you have provided are excuses so far. If they can't make money while things are good, what justification is there to bail them out? British gov't should not be expected to bail out everyone.

The argument for dropping LHR is that they don't have choice. They don't own any aircraft. If they want to secure additional loan, the only available asset they have are the slots. If they haven't looked into selling LHR slots, then they clearly have not exhausted all avenues thus far.

Ironically, this crisis could give BA total dominance over at LHR. They already got those Flybe slots back. Hard to imagine anyone else can make use of all the slots VS will give up if they go belly up or decide to sell them.
 
FSDan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
The argument for dropping LHR is that they don't have choice. They don't own any aircraft. If they want to secure additional loan, the only available asset they have are the slots. If they haven't looked into selling LHR slots, then they clearly have not exhausted all avenues thus far.


Quoting the Telegraph article from post #261:

Opus99 wrote:
Last week, accountancy firm EY – hired by the Government to assist its principal adviser Rothschild – ran a slide rule across Virgin’s submission. It ticked all the boxes required by Sunak; it had explored all other options and a state bailout was the only one left.


...so it sounds like the government doesn't agree that VS selling their LHR slots is a viable option. It also sounds like the government still isn't too hot on bailing VS out due to their shaky financial footing, which is fair. But regardless, the LHR slots are too core of an asset - VS might as well just fold rather than try to move forward without them. FWIW, I haven't seen anyone else proposing they should drop LHR...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:01 pm

BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

I'm a frequent flier of the airline as well, and I've flown economy enough in recent times to know that It doesn't lag behind nor does it stand out compares to what crosses the Atlantic. and I actually like the food compared to some others, especially virgin (in economy at least). British Newspapers over exaggerate things, I know because I live here. The reality is I don't particularly know what other airlines are doing in their long haul ECONONMY class cabin that become so industry leading that BA isn't doing. and if JFK is your only BA route I would hardly use that as a judgement for the whole airline given their oldest aircrafts (albeit refreshed) operate that route.


Yes, agreed, I said it above, JFK is really the pits, both in terms of the mix of 744s and 772s, but also I found the crews are not terribly motivated (not sure if all US get mixed fleet, but JFK must not see many bids, they are a particular bunch on most crossings, not universally true of BA overall).

DL really surprised me the last few times I've flown them. Also an elderly family member crosses the pond once a month, and DL wins in terms of handling hands down with her every time. DL/VS are putting up a good fight for a share of that traffic, my sense is that they know that what they can't get in terms of frequency they must make up for in quality. That's hopefully keeping BA on its toes, but more so upfront. Agreed that VS is mixed bag, DL has been more consistent.


You complain about Mixed Fleet but JFK is a route still flown by Worldwide. The JFK route will be one of the first to consistently get the new J seat too. I gather you usually travel in economy - when was the last time you flew BA? To JFK the meal service is a 4 course meal, alcohol is still free throughout the flight, not just with meals, ice creams are served as a mid-flight snack and afternoon tea is served before landing. On return flights there's dinner again plus breakfast before landing. There are new blankets and pillows in World Traveller and have actually always found BA/AA price competitive whenever I've looked across all cabins.

One of the problems regarding assistance of elderly passengers or those requiring help witb mobolity is that in the UK the service is provided by the airport through a third party and not the airline, that's the law. Unfortunately it's one of the airline's biggest gripes about the service HAL offer at Heathrow.

The thing is, even if Virgin failed, Delta will still be keeping BA honest on the route. United is also a worthy competitor to Newark. If Virgin failed, little would change in the market and that's the thing that will make the UK government think twice about jumping in to save it - the parallels with Flybe and Thomas Cook are there.



My bad, I understood it was mixed fleet. Service has been poorer on JFK runs than on my other flights. I was on BA ex JFK end of February and confirmed what I found before, the quality of the main dish is now lower than before the Y service 'improvements' -- i.e. the positive changes were more form than substance, but that is actually true of DL too. I found myself booking on AA metal more often now (despite the pain of lugging to T3 from the Oxford coach), because service quality is similar, but AA cabins tend to be emptier, making to a better experience over all (alcohol now also free throughout the flight, though that's less important). Breakfast is a very generous way to refer to that mini yogurt and juice box.

Honestly, I am not here to bash BA and understand the cost pressures in Y. The industry is moving that way, network carriers all over are improving front cabins while the back suffers from the race to the bottom. But BA has been part of the problem and a lot this has to do with the market stratification as a function of the limited capacity at LHR. It seems to me that BA would likely see a big share of VS J class traffic come its way, were VS to fold, leaving it with even less space for Y on its long-haul fleet, certainly without much reason to compete for Y class passenger in terms of service.

A lot would also depend on who benefits from VS slots, and judging from past experience, I think I (we?) know the answer to this question. It's probably not JetBlue, not even DL. Without the x number of dailies on VS metal, DL will be no match for the BA/AA JV. I honestly don't think it going to be good for consumers.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:04 pm

jomur wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
There is a bit more thought that went into the arguments above and above that too (follow the chain if you want to understand which argument responds to which, etc). This blanket response is too general to argue with. As you prob know VS wants to fly intra-European. BA's Euro-feed is its long-haul advantage. Incidentally, in recent past the (low) quality argument extends to long-haul as well (even vis-a-vis US carriers post-consolidation, especially DL).


VS could have been flying to Europe for years but they don't and even before this crisis wouldn't have either in the future so that arguement doesnt cut it.


Scale.
 
Nola
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:09 pm

BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
The thing is, even if Virgin failed, Delta will still be keeping BA honest on the route. United is also a worthy competitor to Newark. If Virgin failed, little would change in the market and that's the thing that will make the UK government think twice about jumping in to save it - the parallels with Flybe and Thomas Cook are there.


DL would have to purchase a lot of the Virgin slots at LHR to really have an impact and without fifth freedom rights, wouldn't be able to carry passengers anywhere beyond LHR. (And might not want to anyway given the strengths of AMS and CDG as connection points). I'm not sure that would lead to giving BA any run for its money. In fact, it sounds like a recipe for losing a lot of money.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:30 pm

Nola wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
oxonrow wrote:


DL would have to purchase a lot of the Virgin slots at LHR to really have an impact and without fifth freedom rights, wouldn't be able to carry passengers anywhere beyond LHR. (And might not want to anyway given the strengths of AMS and CDG as connection points). I'm not sure that would lead to giving BA any run for its money. In fact, it sounds like a recipe for losing a lot of money.


Well there isn't that much to connect onto on VS ex LHR coming off a DL flight from the US, so perhaps less relevant. The BA/AA JV would be very dominant on the TATL market, it would effectively own NY ex LHR (the small number of DL and UA flights notwithstanding). My sense is that BA would aggressively seek to capture VS' premium traffic, thus prob leaving even less real estate on their aircraft for Y cabins. It would also have significantly less reason to provide decent service in Y and simply rely on the 'luxury' of flying from LHR as an incentive enough -- something that it effectively does on European flights already.

I don't like gov't handouts and find SRB annoying like many on here, but I think this would be a very bad day for UK consumers who rely on LHR. There is a significant difference between the two other dominant groups in Europe and BA (IAG) and that is the unique situation at LHR, which means that competition is structured differently here (that's not to argue that the German and French consumers did not suffer after the demises of Air Berlin and XL Airways/Aigle Azur etc).
 
r6russian
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:36 pm

people living paycheck to paycheck are expected to have 6 months of living expenses saved for a rainy day, but multibillion dollar companies face going out of business after a couple slow weeks and get bailed out by taxpayer money. Sounds about right
 
tphuang
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:05 pm

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The argument for dropping LHR is that they don't have choice. They don't own any aircraft. If they want to secure additional loan, the only available asset they have are the slots. If they haven't looked into selling LHR slots, then they clearly have not exhausted all avenues thus far.


Quoting the Telegraph article from post #261:

Opus99 wrote:
Last week, accountancy firm EY – hired by the Government to assist its principal adviser Rothschild – ran a slide rule across Virgin’s submission. It ticked all the boxes required by Sunak; it had explored all other options and a state bailout was the only one left.


...so it sounds like the government doesn't agree that VS selling their LHR slots is a viable option. It also sounds like the government still isn't too hot on bailing VS out due to their shaky financial footing, which is fair. But regardless, the LHR slots are too core of an asset - VS might as well just fold rather than try to move forward without them. FWIW, I haven't seen anyone else proposing they should drop LHR...


As far as I know, gov't holding ownership of those slots could be part of the loan condition. What else does VS even have as assets? I'm not the only one on this thread who has talked about gov't or someone else either taking ownership of those slots or selling those slots for cash at a later point. Frankly, if i'm VS and about to go under, then I'd try to sell any asset I have left before going under. And if that means adjusting strategy to LGW/MAN as a final desperation, then so be it.

If VS actually goes under rather than selling those slots, that would be a far better scenario for a new entrant airline like B6.

That will be an interesting time at DL HQ trying to figure out what their London strategy is.
 
FSDan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:44 pm

tphuang wrote:
That will be an interesting time at DL HQ trying to figure out what their London strategy is.


That's for sure. If VS goes down and DL isn't able to somehow get a hold of a chunk of their LHR slots (and I'm not sure they'd be able to given the cash crunch right now), I imagine they might cut the 2nd daily DTW-LHR, PDX-LHR, and maybe SLC-LHR and move those frequencies to JFK so that they at least remain somewhat competitive. If they did that, they could probably upgauge MSP-LHR and DTW-LHR to 333/339. They might also shift something around in order to maintain a presence in LAX-LHR. But there's no denying that VS is a huge boost to DL's competitiveness in the LAX-LHR, JFK-LHR, and BOS-LHR markets in particular, and it will be a big loss for DL if VS doesn't make it.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
alfa164
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:09 am

alfa164 wrote:
Ten bucks says Sr. Huang wants VS to sell those slots to JetBlue. Want to bet?

;)



tphuang wrote:
Actually I said earlier in this thread that they can sell the slots to ba. So you want to send me the money now?


tphuang wrote:
If VS actually goes under rather than selling those slots, that would be a far better scenario for a new entrant airline like B6.


There you go - you want them for free!


tphuang wrote:
I don't need any proof.



Well.... most people here prefer proof to baseless assertions. Just sayin'...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:55 am

Doesn't anyone think it would be hard to sell slots at a time like this? For example, if VS tried to sell their slots or they went bust and their slots went up for sale, how would a carrier like DL accept bailout money from the US government - money they claim they need to survive - and simultaneously spend hundreds of millions on slots in another country? The same goes for most carriers which are in survival mode right now.

Also, I bet BA knows they'll eventually go to the government for help but they're just waiting for VS to potentially go bust before they do it. If it were clear that VS would be bailed out I'm sure they would have already asked as well.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:04 am

So what are the actual odds VS gets a bail out? When will we hear?
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:41 am

NYCVIE wrote:

Also, I bet BA knows they'll eventually go to the government for help but they're just waiting for VS to potentially go bust before they do it. If it were clear that VS would be bailed out I'm sure they would have already asked as well.


I do not know the exact law in the UK but I am not sure it will just work like that, as bankruptcies can take a while to handle and if the UK government does help one and not the other some lawyers will make claims during the bankruptcy. This will not save VS but could end up bad for BA as well if the state aid would be called unlawful. It could also lead to RBS and VS making a killing by getting money for a defunct airline in the bankruptcy which on the other hand would most probably damage the reputation of the government and as this might be close to the elections the government might just not bail out BA either or if, it might include full state ownership and IAG will be screwed in the process.

In my opinion BA and IAG can not wait for VS to fail and than claim money. They would play with really hot fire in that case.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 616
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:00 am

What about virgin sells slots relocates all LHR. Op to Gatwick then teams up with easy to do a big hub and spoke operation there
 
A330Inter
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:10 am

f4f3a wrote:
What about virgin sells slots relocates all LHR. Op to Gatwick then teams up with easy to do a big hub and spoke operation there


Seems great on paper, but wouldn't go against both VS and U2 strategies so far?
If I was VS I would concentrate on keeping the profitable LHR flights and focus on secondary UK markets to the US, with DL support on the US side.
Can they lease the LHR slots out? Even if for 2 years, a few airlines could benefit, ie AI just signed a 2 year lease from Garuda, we know that EK, and a couple of chinese airlines could be interested...
 
BA777FO
Posts: 580
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:11 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Also, I bet BA knows they'll eventually go to the government for help but they're just waiting for VS to potentially go bust before they do it. If it were clear that VS would be bailed out I'm sure they would have already asked as well.


Not at all. BA has reduced its cost base substantially with all staff taking pay cuts or being placed on temporary unpaid leave. The fuel bill will be lower given oil price falls and huge reduction in usage. That's the two biggest cost items negated. Non-essential capex has been suspended with existing cash reserves these arrangements are likely to keep it going for 12 months or longer without its cash position deteriorating to dangerous levels. So confident are they in their cash positiom that planned deliveries of 787-10s, A350s and 77Ws are still going ahead, albeit probably delyaed due to Boeing factory shut downs.

All Virgin going bust would do for BA is to bring capacity back on line quicker than it is currently planning to do. BA/IAG doesn't want a bail out, nor does it need one. It will lobby hard for the government to abolish APD, even if only on a short term basis, to help stimulate the market again. And aside from using the government wage guarantees for its Unite members that's available to all other UK businesses they won't be taking anything else.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:15 am

f4f3a wrote:
What about virgin sells slots relocates all LHR. Op to Gatwick then teams up with easy to do a big hub and spoke operation there

Gatwick is slot controlled too. Where are the slots to come from?
Then, Easyjet does not have the infrastructure for true connecting flights, particularly between different airlines. Easyjet will (in normal times) sell you flights using their Easyjet Worldwide brand, apparently connecting across Gatwick. What actually happens is that you have two separate unlinked flights, and you must cross the UK border, reclaim your baggage, redeposit it with the Gatwick Connects desk, and make your way landside to the next flight. In the event of a misconnect, you are dependent on Gatwick Connects finding you an alternative flight. The airport has facilities for true connections with nothing more than a security check, but Easyjet don't use them.
 
jomur
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:26 am

FluidFlow wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

Also, I bet BA knows they'll eventually go to the government for help but they're just waiting for VS to potentially go bust before they do it. If it were clear that VS would be bailed out I'm sure they would have already asked as well.


I do not know the exact law in the UK but I am not sure it will just work like that, as bankruptcies can take a while to handle and if the UK government does help one and not the other some lawyers will make claims during the bankruptcy. This will not save VS but could end up bad for BA as well if the state aid would be called unlawful. It could also lead to RBS and VS making a killing by getting money for a defunct airline in the bankruptcy which on the other hand would most probably damage the reputation of the government and as this might be close to the elections the government might just not bail out BA either or if, it might include full state ownership and IAG will be screwed in the process.

In my opinion BA and IAG can not wait for VS to fail and than claim money. They would play with really hot fire in that case.


Next UK parliamentary elections are 4 and half years away.... so this will be all done and forgotten about by then.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 723
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:56 am

jomur wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

Also, I bet BA knows they'll eventually go to the government for help but they're just waiting for VS to potentially go bust before they do it. If it were clear that VS would be bailed out I'm sure they would have already asked as well.


I do not know the exact law in the UK but I am not sure it will just work like that, as bankruptcies can take a while to handle and if the UK government does help one and not the other some lawyers will make claims during the bankruptcy. This will not save VS but could end up bad for BA as well if the state aid would be called unlawful. It could also lead to RBS and VS making a killing by getting money for a defunct airline in the bankruptcy which on the other hand would most probably damage the reputation of the government and as this might be close to the elections the government might just not bail out BA either or if, it might include full state ownership and IAG will be screwed in the process.

In my opinion BA and IAG can not wait for VS to fail and than claim money. They would play with really hot fire in that case.


Next UK parliamentary elections are 4 and half years away.... so this will be all done and forgotten about by then.


Just that big bankruptcies and law suits tend to take years to untangle so if the concluclusion of such a case is in 3-4 years it could be dragged through the press and shed a bad light on the government. This will be taken into account if there are good advisers in the government. The last time fast decisions in regards to transportation was made, a company to ferry goods was hired that did not even have ferries.
 
jomur
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:08 am

FluidFlow wrote:
jomur wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:

I do not know the exact law in the UK but I am not sure it will just work like that, as bankruptcies can take a while to handle and if the UK government does help one and not the other some lawyers will make claims during the bankruptcy. This will not save VS but could end up bad for BA as well if the state aid would be called unlawful. It could also lead to RBS and VS making a killing by getting money for a defunct airline in the bankruptcy which on the other hand would most probably damage the reputation of the government and as this might be close to the elections the government might just not bail out BA either or if, it might include full state ownership and IAG will be screwed in the process.

In my opinion BA and IAG can not wait for VS to fail and than claim money. They would play with really hot fire in that case.


Next UK parliamentary elections are 4 and half years away.... so this will be all done and forgotten about by then.


Just that big bankruptcies and law suits tend to take years to untangle so if the concluclusion of such a case is in 3-4 years it could be dragged through the press and shed a bad light on the government. This will be taken into account if there are good advisers in the government. The last time fast decisions in regards to transportation was made, a company to ferry goods was hired that did not even have ferries.


And in the end it had no effect on the Governing party in the next election.. As I said people forget...
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:10 am

tphuang wrote:
Ironically, this crisis could give BA total dominance over at LHR. They already got those Flybe slots back. Hard to imagine anyone else can make use of all the slots VS will give up if they go belly up or decide to sell them.


BA having dominance at LHR would not be a good thing for the consumer, particularly if prices were permanently increased in the event of a VS collapse. As for slots, I'm not even sure BA would be in a position to make use of them straight away (including the remedy slots) given reports elsewhere of some of those 747's being flown to Teruel lately being permanent withdrawals and Willie Walsh confirming lately some of these groundings are for good...

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/88461

oxonrow wrote:
Honestly, I am not here to bash BA and understand the cost pressures in Y. The industry is moving that way, network carriers all over are improving front cabins while the back suffers from the race to the bottom. But BA has been part of the problem and a lot this has to do with the market stratification as a function of the limited capacity at LHR. It seems to me that BA would likely see a big share of VS J class traffic come its way, were VS to fold, leaving it with even less space for Y on its long-haul fleet, certainly without much reason to compete for Y class passenger in terms of service.


A few years ago, I was at Waterside and I got talking to a number of BA employees. One key takeout from that conversation was that they make their money at the front of the plane, anything earned at the back in Y is just extra profit. I expect many airlines are in the same boat as BA when it comes to making money at the front and how much is made in Economy, but for me that conversation left a lasting impression of their attitude towards Y. This was also before Norwegian entered the fray on long-haul out of LGW and we saw how BA and other's reacted with respect to their Y offering.

oxonrow wrote:
I don't like gov't handouts and find SRB annoying like many on here, but I think this would be a very bad day for UK consumers who rely on LHR.


It would also be bad for those of us who use MAN. I reckon a good chunk of the market up here wouldn't bother if the alternative is one-stopping somewhere and I'm not holding my breathe for others to step into the breach if VS did go under or the end result is cutbacks/withdrawal from MAN.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:12 am

jomur wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
jomur wrote:

Next UK parliamentary elections are 4 and half years away.... so this will be all done and forgotten about by then.


Just that big bankruptcies and law suits tend to take years to untangle so if the concluclusion of such a case is in 3-4 years it could be dragged through the press and shed a bad light on the government. This will be taken into account if there are good advisers in the government. The last time fast decisions in regards to transportation was made, a company to ferry goods was hired that did not even have ferries.


And in the end it had no effect on the Governing party in the next election.. As I said people forget...


True. If you take what some people were posting on social media as a fair representation of what the British electorate were thinking, Jeremy Corbyn would be Prime Minister by now.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:08 am

FluidFlow wrote:
This will be taken into account if there are good advisers in the government.

No fear of that with Cummings in charge of advice.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5315
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:26 am

alfa164 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Ten bucks says Sr. Huang wants VS to sell those slots to JetBlue. Want to bet?

;)



tphuang wrote:
Actually I said earlier in this thread that they can sell the slots to ba. So you want to send me the money now?


tphuang wrote:
If VS actually goes under rather than selling those slots, that would be a far better scenario for a new entrant airline like B6.


There you go - you want them for free!


tphuang wrote:
I don't need any proof.



Well.... most people here prefer proof to baseless assertions. Just sayin'...

:roll:

Where is my 10 bucks? You said I want them to sell these to jetblue when I clearly said ba would be the most likely beneficiary from a possible sale.
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