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User001
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 9:25 am

AirHansa,

Would you like to add any more sweeping, unfounded and frankly some cases, bigoted generalisation your post? Don't quite think you got enough in there!
 
joeyw
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:56 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 12:14 pm

Will be confirmed today:

- 747s to be removed from fleet
- VS to leave LGW, all leisure routes to move to LHR (plan to return once it becomes feasible) - hangar, club house to close
- Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Holiday's to merge - to become Virgin Atlantic Holiday's
- 3,150 job cuts across business
 
tphuang
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 12:38 pm

imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1158
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 12:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub.


They were doing that at MAN before Covid-19 and I suppose if they survive this they will continue to try and do that at MAN...
 
VS11
Posts: 1682
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 12:54 pm

Confirmed on BBC live broadcast: Virgin Atlantic to close Gatwick ops.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 12:56 pm

tphuang wrote:
imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.

Do you actually understand the UK market at all?
 
timboflier215
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:00 pm

If they are moving LGW routes to LHR, which LHR routes will be cut to free up the slots?
 
BHXLOVER
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:02 pm

VS11 wrote:
Confirmed on BBC live broadcast: Virgin Atlantic to close Gatwick ops.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52542038
 
Bhoy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:12 pm

timboflier215 wrote:
If they are moving LGW routes to LHR, which LHR routes will be cut to free up the slots?

All the routes to the US while CBP isn’t letting anyone in except Cargo flights?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:13 pm

Firstly, my thoughts are with all VS staff potentially affected by this. The LGW withdrawal is unsurprising but still a shock and sad in many respects.

timboflier215 wrote:
If they are moving LGW routes to LHR, which LHR routes will be cut to free up the slots?


A few slots are free with EWR being scrapped along with GRU not starting. Unless there are more destinations due for the chop, it could be catered for by reduction of frequencies to places such as JFK. I also suspect there won't be up to three MCO flights on selected days in the high summer.
 
MontyP
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:18 pm

How many planes did VS have that were based at LGW?
 
Cedar
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:07 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:21 pm

User001 wrote:
AirHansa,

Would you like to add any more sweeping, unfounded and frankly some cases, bigoted generalisation your post? Don't quite think you got enough in there!


:thumbsup: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Cedar
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:26 pm

Bhoy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.

Do you actually understand the UK market at all?


Additionally, VS have been gradually reducing the number the flights out of LGW over the years as certain destinations have been axed or moved to LHR. JFK was to resume from LGW this year, but it's still a net loss of one route once the HAV transfer to LHR and the axing of UVF is accounted for.

MontyP wrote:
How many planes did VS have that were based at LGW?


The routes at LGW were a mixture of 747's and A330's. Exact numbers varied, but the A330's out of LGW were almost exclusively Caribbean with one of the MCO frequencies occasionally being A330.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:29 pm

tphuang wrote:
imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.

How would they have faced no BA competition? How does a hypothetical VS LGW-BOS flight not compete with a BA LHR-BOS flight?
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:32 pm

-747-400s are gone. (7)
-A330-200s will be fine by 2022. (4)

-3,150 jobs cut.

LGW cut for the foreseeable future.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:32 pm

VS11 wrote:
Confirmed on BBC live broadcast: Virgin Atlantic to close Gatwick ops.

Sad to see them go from LGW. However, with things as bad as they are at VS, we might see them go completely. I hope for their employees' and the flying public's sake that's not the case.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:37 pm

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb ... uture.html

The press release states "From today, Virgin Atlantic will no longer use all of its seven 747-400s...", so I read that as the end of 747 ops at Virgin Atlantic with immediate effect - another end of an era as the 747 has been part of the fleet since day one, albeit one being brought forward in the circumstances.

It also confirms...

*The 4 ex-Air Berlin A330-200's will leave in 2022, which adds up given they were on 4 year leases and A330neo's are due around that time
*Re-branding of Virgin Holidays to Virgin Atlantic Holidays
*Retaining LGW slots for a potential return in the future (presume they will be leased out to others in the meantime)

No mention of the remaining A350 deliveries, A330neo order or what will happen to the season BFS-MCO and GLA-MCO flights.
 
VS239
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:29 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:37 pm

User001 wrote:
AirHansa,

Would you like to add any more sweeping, unfounded and frankly some cases, bigoted generalisation your post? Don't quite think you got enough in there!


For the most part I think AirHansa is bang on the money.
Who...me??
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:44 pm

Sorry if that came across harshly, but Chinese tourists are fickle and many of them would now have worse views on the quality/standard of western healthcare following the pandemic, or in other words may become more trusting of eastern healthcare standards. The history of having dealth with SARS will calm the fears of many Asian tourists and they can trust Asian countries to implement anti-SARS measures.

Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.

Anyway, since both BA and VS are leaving Gatwick, wouldn't this just leave U2 as the only major operator at the airport? (DY are probably going to collapse, whereas BY will be the hardest hit in terms of leisure travel during the downturn). It's ridiculous that a city now has over three low-cost airport hubs.
 
 
joeyw
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:56 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:50 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/media/press-releases/Our-post-Covid19-future.html

The press release states "From today, Virgin Atlantic will no longer use all of its seven 747-400s...", so I read that as the end of 747 ops at Virgin Atlantic with immediate effect - another end of an era as the 747 has been part of the fleet since day one, albeit one being brought forward in the circumstances.

It also confirms...

*The 4 ex-Air Berlin A330-200's will leave in 2022, which adds up given they were on 4 year leases and A330neo's are due around that time
*Re-branding of Virgin Holidays to Virgin Atlantic Holidays
*Retaining LGW slots for a potential return in the future (presume they will be leased out to others in the meantime)

No mention of the remaining A350 deliveries, A330neo order or what will happen to the season BFS-MCO and GLA-MCO flights.


Just been given this info:

Are we still taking delivery of A350s and A330-neos in 2021 and 2022 as planned?
We do still plan to take delivery of our remaining A350s and our A330-900neos. We will however defer the timings of several or all of these aircraft orders and are in discussions with Airbus to agree new dates.

No decision on BFS/GLA flying yet.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 pm

Are all the LGW routes cut or will they be shifted to LHR?
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1158
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:52 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Firstly, my thoughts are with all VS staff potentially affected by this.


Here here.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3162
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:53 pm

gunnerman wrote:


I haven’t seen it confirmed, but guess they are continuing at MAN?

Probably don’t need Heathrow and Gatwick in this situation.

Heathrow may be about to gain an Orlando route though.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:55 pm

Bhoy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.

Do you actually understand the UK market at all?

I don't understand UK market at all, but I do understand they lost money year after year with their existing LHR strategy in a strong demand market. And now with weak demand, they are just going to lose even more money. So, maybe they should change their strategy a little bit.
Last edited by tphuang on Tue May 05, 2020 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1165
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:58 pm

VS had already closed its operations at MAN, GLA and BFS. With the closure of LGW VS has flights only from LHR T2.
 
caaardiff
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 1:59 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/media/press-releases/Our-post-Covid19-future.html

The press release states "From today, Virgin Atlantic will no longer use all of its seven 747-400s...", so I read that as the end of 747 ops at Virgin Atlantic with immediate effect - another end of an era as the 747 has been part of the fleet since day one, albeit one being brought forward in the circumstances.

It also confirms...

*The 4 ex-Air Berlin A330-200's will leave in 2022, which adds up given they were on 4 year leases and A330neo's are due around that time
*Re-branding of Virgin Holidays to Virgin Atlantic Holidays
*Retaining LGW slots for a potential return in the future (presume they will be leased out to others in the meantime)

No mention of the remaining A350 deliveries, A330neo order or what will happen to the season BFS-MCO and GLA-MCO flights.


According to the article the fleet will consist of 36 aircraft. The previous setup would've been 43 aircraft by 2022 (subject to new A330's replacing older ones). The split would have been as below, however clearly there will need to be some cancellations on new orders. Even with the 787's, all A350's and only the direct order A330's still takes the fleet to 37.
17 - 787-900
12 - A350-1000 (8 awaiting delivery)
14 - A330 neo (8 from Airbus & 6 from ALC)


Does anyone know the routes and frequencies of the LGW routes? I can imagine to start with that it won't be that difficult to chop and change LHR routes to fit some of the LGW routes in.
 
jamsco99
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:09 pm

Unless already confirmed, I assume this means delta wont launch their lgw flights now
 
VS11
Posts: 1682
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:12 pm

The LGW-switched-to-LHR routes don't have to operate daily for some time. So 1 slot pair can be used for 2-3 former LGW destinations.
 
RvA
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:14 pm

gunnerman wrote:
VS had already closed its operations at MAN, GLA and BFS. With the closure of LGW VS has flights only from LHR T2.


LHR T3? Or are they moving?
 
User001
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:17 pm

Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.


That's only true if the numbers have been reported correctly. Reports of 25,000 urns being delivered to Wuhan alone suggest they haven't, and people in China living in such fear of this virus that clearly they have been spooked by much more than just govt orders. They are allowed to go out again but many refuse to, why, if they have such a grip on things as you suggest?

But anyway, this thread is about VS so will leave it there.
 
Junglejames
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:07 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:18 pm

airhansa wrote:
Sorry if that came across harshly, but Chinese tourists are fickle and many of them would now have worse views on the quality/standard of western healthcare following the pandemic, or in other words may become more trusting of eastern healthcare standards. The history of having dealth with SARS will calm the fears of many Asian tourists and they can trust Asian countries to implement anti-SARS measures.

Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.

Anyway, since both BA and VS are leaving Gatwick, wouldn't this just leave U2 as the only major operator at the airport? (DY are probably going to collapse, whereas BY will be the hardest hit in terms of leisure travel during the downturn). It's ridiculous that a city now has over three low-cost airport hubs.
You do realise not many chinese believe their governments official figures?
When the chinese government insists there are no new cases, it is taken with a pinch of salt.

As for healthcare. Ha. I've seen the chinese answer for an ambulance and paramedics.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:19 pm

RvA wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
VS had already closed its operations at MAN, GLA and BFS. With the closure of LGW VS has flights only from LHR T2.


LHR T3? Or are they moving?


LHR has closed T4 and T3, airlines have mostly relocated to T2 except all BA flights are in T5
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4880
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:21 pm

RvA wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
VS had already closed its operations at MAN, GLA and BFS. With the closure of LGW VS has flights only from LHR T2.


LHR T3? Or are they moving?

Any passenger flights are in T2. T3 Virgin cargo flights only.
 
Ryga
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:22 pm

airhansa wrote:
Sorry if that came across harshly, but Chinese tourists are fickle and many of them would now have worse views on the quality/standard of western healthcare following the pandemic, or in other words may become more trusting of eastern healthcare standards. The history of having dealth with SARS will calm the fears of many Asian tourists and they can trust Asian countries to implement anti-SARS measures.

Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.

Anyway, since both BA and VS are leaving Gatwick, wouldn't this just leave U2 as the only major operator at the airport? (DY are probably going to collapse, whereas BY will be the hardest hit in terms of leisure travel during the downturn). It's ridiculous that a city now has over three low-cost airport hubs.


BY have actually reported positive strong bookings going forward, analysts also believe that leisure travel will recover quicker than other segments. A fair chunk TUI’s business comes from last minute bookings and so far, there are no schedule changes going forward from November.
AA AM BA BM BY DP DY EK MH PG RJ TK U2 VS Y2 ZB Z2 5J 9W

738 752 762ER/3ER 77W 788/9
A319/20/21 A332/3
E190
ATR 72-600
Jetstream 32
CRJ200ER
 
RvA
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:30 pm

skipness1E wrote:
RvA wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
VS had already closed its operations at MAN, GLA and BFS. With the closure of LGW VS has flights only from LHR T2.


LHR T3? Or are they moving?

Any passenger flights are in T2. T3 Virgin cargo flights only.


Gotcha thanks. Any indication for how long that might be?
 
Bhoy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:31 pm

Arion640 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:


I haven’t seen it confirmed, but guess they are continuing at MAN?

Probably don’t need Heathrow and Gatwick in this situation.

Heathrow may be about to gain an Orlando route though.

Where would the operate to from MAN at the moment? The US Border is closed to arrivals from the UK, so effectively, all those flights ex-MAN are suspended, as they only go to the US anyway.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:42 pm

tphuang wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
imo, huge mistake here. They could've moved all their operation to LGW and faced no BA competition and had all the slots they needed to build a hub. Yet, they decided to compete with a minimal network against a much larger rival in a weakened demand environment. Other than serving DL, I don't see how this helps VS.

Do you actually understand the UK market at all?

I don't understand UK market at all, but I do understand they lost money year after year with their existing LHR strategy in a strong demand market. And now with weak demand, they are just going to lose even more money. So, maybe they should change their strategy a little bit.

When VS started they were based at LGW only, as they were stopped from operating to the US ex-LHR by Bermuda II. They campaigned for a long time to be allowed to have some routes ex-LHR, which they finally got in the early 90s, for some routes. After openskies heralded the removal of all restrictions, the remaining US flights excluding the bucket and spade routes to Disney (MCO) were progressively moved to LHR.

While LGW has a sizeable O&D market, it's not that easy to access from outside Kent and Sussex and inside central London. Anywhere else in the UK, you pretty much have to go past Heathrow to get there, anyway, which is one thing for a bucket and spade trip (although VS also offers flights to MCO ex-MAN for those further north), quite another for Business trips, which is where the money is. VS have the historical data of how the sales ex-LGW and ex-LHR compare.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 2:55 pm

I guess there needs to be a thread on the future of Gatwick Airport. BA and DS are leaving, BY is collapsing, whereas DY future is uncertain. London will now have over three low cost airport hubs!

User001 wrote:
Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.


That's only true if the numbers have been reported correctly. Reports of 25,000 urns being delivered to Wuhan alone suggest they haven't, and people in China living in such fear of this virus that clearly they have been spooked by much more than just govt orders. They are allowed to go out again but many refuse to, why, if they have such a grip on things as you suggest?

But anyway, this thread is about VS so will leave it there.



Junglejames wrote:
airhansa wrote:
Sorry if that came across harshly, but Chinese tourists are fickle and many of them would now have worse views on the quality/standard of western healthcare following the pandemic, or in other words may become more trusting of eastern healthcare standards. The history of having dealth with SARS will calm the fears of many Asian tourists and they can trust Asian countries to implement anti-SARS measures.

Furthermore, most of Asia has been less hit by the pandemic, especially India. China and India are still forecast to economically grow. Asian tourists will have more money to spend.

Anyway, since both BA and VS are leaving Gatwick, wouldn't this just leave U2 as the only major operator at the airport? (DY are probably going to collapse, whereas BY will be the hardest hit in terms of leisure travel during the downturn). It's ridiculous that a city now has over three low-cost airport hubs.
You do realise not many chinese believe their governments official figures?
When the chinese government insists there are no new cases, it is taken with a pinch of salt.

As for healthcare. Ha. I've seen the chinese answer for an ambulance and paramedics.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I'm not saying that the infection numbers and deaths are necessarily true, but the geographic spread within China was successfully contained, and tourism has basically rebound already.

Generally, the Wuhan outbreak was mostly limited to the central provinces of China (akin to Switzerland and the surrounding departments in Europe), which can be backed up with date from Macau, Hong Kong (which kept mostly open borders) and Taiwan where there weren't that many infections. The outbreak in South Korea was due to Christian missionaries that flew to Wuhan during the outbreak.

The vast majority of infections in East Asia (especially Hong Kong and Singapore) now can be traced back through Europe and the US, hence why the predominant mood in East Asia (as well as outside China) is that the pandemic has hit harder in the West than in the East, with the reason being a failure by westerners to respond to the pandemic properly.
 
Jetport
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:00 pm

caaardiff wrote:

According to the article the fleet will consist of 36 aircraft. The previous setup would've been 43 aircraft by 2022 (subject to new A330's replacing older ones). The split would have been as below, however clearly there will need to be some cancellations on new orders. Even with the 787's, all A350's and only the direct order A330's still takes the fleet to 37.
17 - 787-900
12 - A350-1000 (8 awaiting delivery)
14 - A330 neo (8 from Airbus & 6 from ALC)


Does anyone know the routes and frequencies of the LGW routes? I can imagine to start with that it won't be that difficult to chop and change LHR routes to fit some of the LGW routes in.


I haven't followed Virgin Atlantic much, but one look at the diversity of their tiny fleet tells me cost control isn't their strong suite. Why in the world would they have 787-9's and A330-900's on the way? That is crazy having 2 aircraft with very similar missions in such small quantities, but if they survive I don't see them taking any A330NEO's. I guess if they survive and end up with just A350's and 787's that makes some sense. However, as tiny as they are, I would think one aircraft type should suffice.

Many airlines seem incapable of learning the Southwest fleet simplicity lesson. I cannot see how Virgin Atlantic survives this crisis.
 
Ryga
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:03 pm

airhansa wrote:
...BY is collapsing...


Your ignorance is amusing.
AA AM BA BM BY DP DY EK MH PG RJ TK U2 VS Y2 ZB Z2 5J 9W

738 752 762ER/3ER 77W 788/9
A319/20/21 A332/3
E190
ATR 72-600
Jetstream 32
CRJ200ER
 
Bhoy
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:04 pm

Ryga wrote:
airhansa wrote:
...BY is collapsing...


Your ignorance is amusing.

did he not just get the codes back to front?
BY is collapsing, whereas DY future is uncertain
 
JamesCousins
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:07 pm

Let's not forget that this must be an awful time for the Virgin Atlantic & Virgin Holiday's staff, especially as Virgin Atlantic were on a route to modest profitability after years of mismanagement (European Holiday Routes, Expensive Leases, Vanity PR Projects, Little Red and ofc more recently buying Flybe)

- In terms of the Airbus orders, the reason VS will be reluctant to cancel or announce deferrals is that those orders directly benefit the UK economy from both an engine (RR) and wing standpoint. Cancelling these against a request for government support would not be useful (though it seems the government won't be providing a bailout anyways)
- As we've seen industry wide, this situation forces airlines to slim down and rationalize - arguably this only accelerates some of the moves VS would have had to make anyways as they continued on a route to profitability (though with redundancies and fleet reductions added in this case)
- VS are fortunate that they had a fleet primed to rationalization, I would have been interested what the next move would have been should ageing 747s not be primed for retirement, an issue that we've seen with the likes of Norweigen with their modern fleet and large order backlogs
- The slimming down of the Virgin Holidays division has been a long time coming, just a couple of years ago they were competitive with TUI and MT all over the Caribbean, before this they'd already ditched routes such as CUN from LGW - this isn't an overnight choice
- I'd also say that this is an indication that Branson really wants to save VS, this is the most drastic change we could've seen from VS. Retiring the 747s isn't just pushing a couple of planes out early, it's a massive hit in capacity. 500+ seat 747s with huge economy cabins will now be replaced by A330s on routes to Orlando and the Carribean

In conclusion, this is all painfully said. I flew on a VS 747 not too long ago back from the Carribean, and the plane was filled to the rafters. I remember the queue for boarding literally taking over half of the departure lounge, a sight seen no more for Virgin Atlantic, the staff and the mighty 747s.
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: W6 A320, W6 A321, EVA 77W, VS 787-9m AS A320, VS A35K, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
User avatar
FrenchPotatoEye
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:08 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Firstly, my thoughts are with all VS staff potentially affected by this. The LGW withdrawal is unsurprising but still a shock and sad in many respect....


Thoughts? Vs staff did not die. Sheehsh.

Did you have thoughts for BA staff also loosing jobs at gatWick?

All this shows is Virgn is poor run airline.
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:12 pm

Jetport wrote:
I haven't followed Virgin Atlantic much, but one look at the diversity of their tiny fleet tells me cost control isn't their strong suite. Why in the world would they have 787-9's and A330-900's on the way? That is crazy having 2 aircraft with very similar missions in such small quantities, but if they survive I don't see them taking any A330NEO's. I guess if they survive and end up with just A350's and 787's that makes some sense. However, as tiny as they are, I would think one aircraft type should suffice.

Many airlines seem incapable of learning the Southwest fleet simplicity lesson. I cannot see how Virgin Atlantic survives this crisis.


I agree. Moreover, where is VS going to get the cash to survive until travel patterns return to some semblance of normality, whenever that may be? DL can't put anymore money in, and Virgin Group won't. VS has no assets, no collateral. Magic money tree?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:12 pm

Bhoy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
Do you actually understand the UK market at all?

I don't understand UK market at all, but I do understand they lost money year after year with their existing LHR strategy in a strong demand market. And now with weak demand, they are just going to lose even more money. So, maybe they should change their strategy a little bit.

When VS started they were based at LGW only, as they were stopped from operating to the US ex-LHR by Bermuda II. They campaigned for a long time to be allowed to have some routes ex-LHR, which they finally got in the early 90s, for some routes. After openskies heralded the removal of all restrictions, the remaining US flights excluding the bucket and spade routes to Disney (MCO) were progressively moved to LHR.

While LGW has a sizeable O&D market, it's not that easy to access from outside Kent and Sussex and inside central London. Anywhere else in the UK, you pretty much have to go past Heathrow to get there, anyway, which is one thing for a bucket and spade trip (although VS also offers flights to MCO ex-MAN for those further north), quite another for Business trips, which is where the money is. VS have the historical data of how the sales ex-LGW and ex-LHR compare.

well, clearly when it comes to business flights, the demand will be down for a long time. Longer time than the amount of cash VS has on the book to burn. There has been several longer haul leisure airlines collapsing recently, which opens up room for VS. Historical data is not necessarily predictor of an environment without BA, Thomas cook and possibly DY. They can keep sticking to their business traveler LHR strategy and go under or they can try something completely different.
 
VS11
Posts: 1682
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:13 pm

Jetport wrote:
caaardiff wrote:

According to the article the fleet will consist of 36 aircraft. The previous setup would've been 43 aircraft by 2022 (subject to new A330's replacing older ones). The split would have been as below, however clearly there will need to be some cancellations on new orders. Even with the 787's, all A350's and only the direct order A330's still takes the fleet to 37.
17 - 787-900
12 - A350-1000 (8 awaiting delivery)
14 - A330 neo (8 from Airbus & 6 from ALC)


Does anyone know the routes and frequencies of the LGW routes? I can imagine to start with that it won't be that difficult to chop and change LHR routes to fit some of the LGW routes in.


I haven't followed Virgin Atlantic much, but one look at the diversity of their tiny fleet tells me cost control isn't their strong suite. Why in the world would they have 787-9's and A330-900's on the way? That is crazy having 2 aircraft with very similar missions in such small quantities, but if they survive I don't see them taking any A330NEO's. I guess if they survive and end up with just A350's and 787's that makes some sense. However, as tiny as they are, I would think one aircraft type should suffice.

Many airlines seem incapable of learning the Southwest fleet simplicity lesson. I cannot see how Virgin Atlantic survives this crisis.


Richard Branson negotiating a better deal for Virgin Atlantic's A340s in the early 1990s is one of the classic examples of pitching Airbus against Boeing. VS got free seat-back IFE in all classes for its A340s, and this is 30 years ago. Also, there is this tiny situation with the MAX so maybe you can reconsider your "recommendation" about fleet simplicity.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3162
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:17 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
gunnerman wrote:


I haven’t seen it confirmed, but guess they are continuing at MAN?

Probably don’t need Heathrow and Gatwick in this situation.

Heathrow may be about to gain an Orlando route though.

Where would the operate to from MAN at the moment? The US Border is closed to arrivals from the UK, so effectively, all those flights ex-MAN are suspended, as they only go to the US anyway.


They fly to Barbados from Manchester with Dehli supposed to be beginning in October.

Those US routes will very likely be operating by the end of the year anyway.
 
TC957
Posts: 3930
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:19 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
Firstly, my thoughts are with all VS staff potentially affected by this. The LGW withdrawal is unsurprising but still a shock and sad in many respect....


Thoughts? Vs staff did not die. Sheehsh.

Did you have thoughts for BA staff also loosing jobs at gatWick?

All this shows is Virgn is poor run airline.

Oh please ! I think the fact that VS have a clear plan announced how they will look like post-CV19 shows they are a far better run airline than many doom and gloom merchants posting on this thread think. I hope those that predicted VS's complete demise eat their words now.
It's sad that the 744's are no longer being kept but surely in the cold light of reality an inevitable decision. Next step now is what routes they will keep going forward.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Tue May 05, 2020 3:26 pm

What is the possible future for a KLM-Air France deal with Virgin Atlantic? KLM is still one of my top picks for UK regional airlines (e.g. Flybe-style). since flights over the North Sea and Norwegian Sea to isolated areas in Scandinavia and the islands of the Atlantic Ocean are still very much needed and profitable. Wideroe and Loganair shows that such operations are profitable.

Bhoy wrote:
Ryga wrote:
airhansa wrote:
...BY is collapsing...


Your ignorance is amusing.

did he not just get the codes back to front?
BY is collapsing, whereas DY future is uncertain


Yes, But TBF I just read that DY was rescued by creditors yesterday, though that doesn't mean they'll keep London Gatwick operations alive. I don't personally believe that BY will get out of the pandemic alive either but obviously I've got no hard facts to argue with yet, other than maybe that it's primarily older people that by package holidays and these are the bulk of TUI travel users.

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