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LHRFlyer
Posts: 1041
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:35 am

Regarding Virgin using its LHR slots as security to raise finance, it has already done this:

https://www.ft.com/content/40193024-9e8 ... 12f209f861

Virgin Atlantic has become the first European airline to raise money by using its take-off and landing slots at Heathrow as collateral. The UK carrier raised £220m from the innovative bond, which it plans to use to invest in new aircraft such as the 17 Boeing 787s it has on order.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 580
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:51 am

So Virgin has ready used its slots as collateral for financing aircraft purchases? That doesn't leave a whole lot else for the government to insure against a future failure. It's strikingly similar to Flybe. It doesn't look good.
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:56 am

I'm beginning to wonder why there is total silence from DL on VS. Could it possibly be that DL wants VS to fail? If so perhaps DL are looking to take over the USA bound slots and grab 100% of the profit rather than the current situation where they keep making losses.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5462
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:22 am

LHRFlyer wrote:
Regarding Virgin using its LHR slots as security to raise finance, it has already done this:

https://www.ft.com/content/40193024-9e8 ... 12f209f861

Virgin Atlantic has become the first European airline to raise money by using its take-off and landing slots at Heathrow as collateral. The UK carrier raised £220m from the innovative bond, which it plans to use to invest in new aircraft such as the 17 Boeing 787s it has on order.


in that case, then I'm really not sure what it has left for the gov't in this case. i'm not sure it can even sell the slots at this point.

goosebayguy wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder why there is total silence from DL on VS. Could it possibly be that DL wants VS to fail? If so perhaps DL are looking to take over the USA bound slots and grab 100% of the profit rather than the current situation where they keep making losses.

How to you suggest DL grab 100% of profits on routes like LHR-SFO/IAD/LAS/MIA where it has zero point of sale on either end?

And when VS is unable to make payments for those 787s, DL is going to get those slots ahead of the creditors?
 
Bhoy
Posts: 562
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:26 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder why there is total silence from DL on VS. Could it possibly be that DL wants VS to fail? If so perhaps DL are looking to take over the USA bound slots and grab 100% of the profit rather than the current situation where they keep making losses.

But DL are already splitting the income/expenses with AFKL as well as VS, too...
 
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oxonrow
Posts: 66
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:30 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:

A few years ago, I was at Waterside and I got talking to a number of BA employees. One key takeout from that conversation was that they make their money at the front of the plane, anything earned at the back in Y is just extra profit. I expect many airlines are in the same boat as BA when it comes to making money at the front and how much is made in Economy, but for me that conversation left a lasting impression of their attitude towards Y. This was also before Norwegian entered the fray on long-haul out of LGW and we saw how BA and other's reacted with respect to their Y offering.


Airlines want to make money with front cabins, some are better at getting the contracts than others, obviously BA is well positioned to do well given its dominance in London, a major financial centre. I am sure J is a cash cow, less certain about F. Y+ is probably doing well. There is a fundamental difference between BA and other major network carriers in Europe (AF/KL and LH Group) and that is the extreme slot constraint at LHR, which is many ways favoured as the best/most important airport for London. Given the capacity constraint, BA is effectively fine shedding Y seats and giving them away to competition -- or competing for them at LGW if need be -- and moving to premium heavy cabins ex LHR. That has no equivalent on the continent, or most cities in the world. Not having VS to compete with on TATL routes will give BA an even stronger hand in J traffic, allowing it to keep prices high while squeezing the Y cabins further.

I am not sure if this is all lost in domestic politics or there is a dog whistle situation around it. The environmental concerns are being used, including by BA itself, to counter the third runway proposal. There is a lot of backdoor protectionism despite the mantra of competition and BA's (admittedly) overt pro-competition narrative (especially vis-a-vis the Gulf carriers, which sets it apart from the continental moaning). But this obscures the reality of how competition out of LHR is structured. And BA enjoys a very comfortable position there.
 
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Polot
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:33 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder why there is total silence from DL on VS. Could it possibly be that DL wants VS to fail? If so perhaps DL are looking to take over the USA bound slots and grab 100% of the profit rather than the current situation where they keep making losses.

You are now seeing the downside of significant ownership stakes in other airlines. Great when times are good for the mothership, suddenly a burden when times are bad.

You are seeing silence from DL because they are certainly not going to commit a lot of money to VS when they themself are facing their own troubles. I doubt they want VS to fail, but DL is going to protect/save themself first.

There are also optics that must be considered. DL is applying for bailout funds from the US government. Committing money to VS (a British airline) while at the same time asking the US government (aka US tax payers) to give them money is not a good look. You are effectively asking US taxpayers to help bailout a foreign airline.
 
wv399
Posts: 88
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:03 pm

goosebayguy wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder why there is total silence from DL on VS. Could it possibly be that DL wants VS to fail? If so perhaps DL are looking to take over the USA bound slots and grab 100% of the profit rather than the current situation where they keep making losses.


I’m curious how you think a VS failure helps DL? VS is their “London strategy.” Delta has a limited slot portfolio, which is why they were so quick to snap up Virgin when SQ was ready to sell. They’re already in a joint venture with VS/AF/KL to share profits and losses. With their own daily losses of $60m, the only way I can think of Delta could possibly inject cash into VS or buy LHR slots (if they collapsed), is a loan from American Express.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1157
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:39 pm

I would expect the chancellor to not make any positive mood music in the public domain.

The issue the government have to address is that no one knows how long the lockdown is going to last and it is likely to change at different rates depending on whether you are in the UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, North America.

The long haul business of airlines is clearly based on connecting these intercontinental points. The disruption to this might be worse for long haul carriers given that the position in the virus’s curve depends substantively on where in the world you are located. You can’t connect either if one is in lockdown - and this is likely to disrupt long haul operators for a longer period of time as the spread of the virus is very different from continent to continent.

The upshot of this is whilst BA are (largely for historical reasons) better placed to survive than VS there is no guarantee that it can survive without further assistance from the government (for example the UK’s furlough scheme lasts for 3 months, is extraordinarily expensive for the government to run and an extension might be unaffordable - what happens after then?)

It is dangerous for the government to place itself in a position where it bails out BA (I am certain it would if required) but not VS (as it may or may not do).

This is because it may leave them exposed to claims from the creditors (likely via the liquidator / administrator) of VS - which if successful would lead to the government making a large payout perhaps of a similar order it would have had to make to keep VS going, but without the benefit of VS continuing as a going concern.

That would be a disaster, but the UK is a rules based country where the government cannot pick favourites and expect there will be no come back (NB - I don’t know if there is anything in the Coronavirus bill that might address this point).
 
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Revelation
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:44 pm

A330Inter wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
What about virgin sells slots relocates all LHR. Op to Gatwick then teams up with easy to do a big hub and spoke operation there


Seems great on paper, but wouldn't go against both VS and U2 strategies so far?
If I was VS I would concentrate on keeping the profitable LHR flights and focus on secondary UK markets to the US, with DL support on the US side.

DL can't help a lot with US feed at JFK, most of their domestic network uses LGA instead of JFK.
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FSDan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
A330Inter wrote:
If I was VS I would concentrate on keeping the profitable LHR flights and focus on secondary UK markets to the US, with DL support on the US side.

DL can't help a lot with US feed at JFK, most of their domestic network uses LGA instead of JFK.


Not to get too far off topic, but I think that's a misconception about DL these days... It used to be true, but now DL has plenty of JFK feed. Pre COVID-19, they were planning on operating well over 150 daily domestic flights for this summer, with ~100 of them being mainline.
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Rampvan
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Re: Virgin Atlantic facing collapse

Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:50 pm

anstar wrote:
Rampvan wrote:
    Nicknuzzii wrote:
    If they were trying to preserve cash they shouldn’t have been running 4x daily JFK-LHR last week. Their EWR cut was a little premature too.


    Most of the JFK flights are paying their way with cargo both ways


    So if cargo is making money why dont they just shut down their loss making passenger operations and fly cargo.


    Don't know if you have noticed but at the moment there arnt many aircraft flying the Atlantic from the UK, as a result the £ per kilo is at a point where this makes it worth doing
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    Boof02671
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:19 pm

    Delta cannot invest anymore into VS, one they don’t have the money and two the Federal bailout prohibits it.
     
    Boof02671
    Posts: 2275
    Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:21 pm

    FSDan wrote:
    Revelation wrote:
    A330Inter wrote:
    If I was VS I would concentrate on keeping the profitable LHR flights and focus on secondary UK markets to the US, with DL support on the US side.

    DL can't help a lot with US feed at JFK, most of their domestic network uses LGA instead of JFK.


    Not to get too far off topic, but I think that's a misconception about DL these days... It used to be true, but now DL has plenty of JFK feed. Pre COVID-19, they were planning on operating well over 150 daily domestic flights for this summer, with ~100 of them being mainline.

    You can’t say that one NYC schedules are facing draconian cuts and summer schedules aren’t finished.
     
    FSDan
    Posts: 3340
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:01 am

    Boof02671 wrote:
    FSDan wrote:
    Not to get too far off topic, but I think that's a misconception about DL these days... It used to be true, but now DL has plenty of JFK feed. Pre COVID-19, they were planning on operating well over 150 daily domestic flights for this summer, with ~100 of them being mainline.

    You can’t say that one NYC schedules are facing draconian cuts and summer schedules aren’t finished.


    Hence why I specifically called out pre COVID-19. When things get back to normal, I expect DL will add plenty of connectivity back to JFK.
    This is my signature until I think of a better one.
     
    wv399
    Posts: 88
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:23 am

    FSDan wrote:
    Revelation wrote:
    A330Inter wrote:
    If I was VS I would concentrate on keeping the profitable LHR flights and focus on secondary UK markets to the US, with DL support on the US side.

    DL can't help a lot with US feed at JFK, most of their domestic network uses LGA instead of JFK.


    Not to get too far off topic, but I think that's a misconception about DL these days... It used to be true, but now DL has plenty of JFK feed. Pre COVID-19, they were planning on operating well over 150 daily domestic flights for this summer, with ~100 of them being mainline.


    True. Plus JFK serves cities like LAX and SAN subject to the LGA perimeter rule.
     
    skipness1E
    Posts: 4855
    Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:17 am

    FSDan wrote:
    Boof02671 wrote:
    FSDan wrote:
    Not to get too far off topic, but I think that's a misconception about DL these days... It used to be true, but now DL has plenty of JFK feed. Pre COVID-19, they were planning on operating well over 150 daily domestic flights for this summer, with ~100 of them being mainline.

    You can’t say that one NYC schedules are facing draconian cuts and summer schedules aren’t finished.


    Hence why I specifically called out pre COVID-19. When things get back to normal, I expect DL will add plenty of connectivity back to JFK.

    I suspect the new “normal” will be double digits % UNDER peak 2019.
     
    EWRFlyer
    Posts: 6
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:25 am

    Having read through this thread i'm astonished that a group of aviation enthusiasts can attack an airline in this manner
    All i can think of is your all One world or Star alliance lovers
    Not one of you have come up with any true facts about the VS current financial position
    The staff volunteered to take 8 weeks unpaid leave, RB has put money in, what more do you want?
    This seems to be a little more than you here from other airlines, considering BA have furloughed 36000 staff witouth any option,
    have IAG shareholders agreed to inject cash into there airlines, QR remain very quiet
    Considering VS has 45 aircraft support, IAG has approx 550!
    IAG must have lease costs, so who is going to burn through money quicker IAG or VS, 9 Billion wont go far!
    I dont want any airline to fail, we are in unprecented times, most nations are suppporting industry so the UK Government should
    do the same for all UK airlines.
    As a community we should be banding together and supporting all airlines, differences need putting aside and everyone needs
    to help each other

    We need competition in the future, not consolidated majors dictating price!!!

    Stay safe everyone
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:09 am

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    Having read through this thread i'm astonished that a group of aviation enthusiasts can attack an airline in this manner
    All i can think of is your all One world or Star alliance lovers
    Not one of you have come up with any true facts about the VS current financial position
    The staff volunteered to take 8 weeks unpaid leave, RB has put money in, what more do you want?
    This seems to be a little more than you here from other airlines, considering BA have furloughed 36000 staff witouth any option,
    have IAG shareholders agreed to inject cash into there airlines, QR remain very quiet
    Considering VS has 45 aircraft support, IAG has approx 550!
    IAG must have lease costs, so who is going to burn through money quicker IAG or VS, 9 Billion wont go far!
    I dont want any airline to fail, we are in unprecented times, most nations are suppporting industry so the UK Government should
    do the same for all UK airlines.
    As a community we should be banding together and supporting all airlines, differences need putting aside and everyone needs
    to help each other

    We need competition in the future, not consolidated majors dictating price!!!

    Stay safe everyone

    Thanks for sharing. VS is the one asking for money isn’t it? And IAG hasn’t yet. So I think it’s clear who has burnt through money quicker. Unfortunately, the other end of coronavirus means more consolidation and less competition this industry is tough and only the largest will survive many of whom STILL need government help
     
    BA777FO
    Posts: 580
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:50 am

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    Not one of you have come up with any true facts about the VS current financial position


    Here are some facts from a recent Bloomberg article:

    "In total [Virgin Atlantic] lost more than $100 million during 2017 and 2018 — the two most recent years for which its accounts are available.

    That’s one reason its balance sheet is weaker than its European peers. Lease-adjusted net debt was five times higher than a comparable measure of earnings, according to the latest group accounts (which includes the travel operator Virgin Holidays). Air France-KLM — by no means the strongest airline financially — has net debt of 1.5 times the same earnings measure.  

    While Virgin Atlantic had almost 500 million pounds of cash at the end of December 2018, much of that money came from customers paying for tickets long before they traveled. Its current liabilities far exceeded its current assets, which is a problem if customers start asking for their money back because they can’t fly."

    That's the crux of the problem for government bailouts. They didn't bail out Flybe because there were no assets against which ot could secure its loans. Virgin is in the same position.

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    The staff volunteered to take 8 weeks unpaid leave, RB has put money in, what more do you want?


    That's not entirely true. They were tolf to take 8 weeks unpaid (and they had 4 days to agree) otherwise teh airline would file for administration. They had no choice, certainly not voluntary!

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    This seems to be a little more than you here from other airlines, considering BA have furloughed 36000 staff witouth any option,
    have IAG shareholders agreed to inject cash into there airlines, QR remain very quiet
    Considering VS has 45 aircraft support, IAG has approx 550!


    The agreement BA has with Unite union members is to use the government furlough scheme - employees will be paid 80% of their basic salary plus 80% of any allowances or shift pay usually due with no upper limit. So they're sitting at home for 2 months on 80% pay. That's significantly better than the Virgin deal.

    IAG doesn't need any cash injections. I don't understand why people keep bringing IAG into this. Their cash position is strong - over €9bn in available liquidity. Costs have been slashed already and can continue in this state until they're virtually the last airline standing.

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    IAG must have lease costs, so who is going to burn through money quicker IAG or VS, 9 Billion wont go far!


    Virgin, because they hardly any left. Lease costs make up a small proportion of overall costs - oil prices are dramatically lower but so is use, so already costs are down ~40% - employees on furlough reduces costs a further ~25% and non-essential capex has been stopped. Add to that some of BA's leases and possibly other IAG group airlines have pay-per-hour leases - so if they don't fly they pay very little. Virgin simply can't reduce costs or raise revenue so quickly nor do they have the same level of cash reserves.

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    I dont want any airline to fail, we are in unprecented times, most nations are suppporting industry so the UK Government should
    do the same for all UK airlines.


    The problem is the government can't prop up every failing business. They have a duty to taxpayers not to just waste money. They will only provide loans where there are assets to secure them against. Virgin has virtually nothing to secure loans against as they're already using every asset as collateral.

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    We need competition in the future, not consolidated majors dictating price!!!


    After the collapse of Monarch, Thomas Cook and Flybe I think UK taxpayers are tired of having to pick up the pieces of over-supply and too much capacity i the market. Clearly lower prices are good for consumers, but not when they're so low you get continuous failures with people stranded downroute. Prices need to not only be low, but sustainable. If Virgin fail there will still be fierce competition to/from London.
     
    Boeing74741R
    Posts: 1439
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:46 am

    BA777FO wrote:
    IAG doesn't need any cash injections. I don't understand why people keep bringing IAG into this. Their cash position is strong - over €9bn in available liquidity. Costs have been slashed already and can continue in this state until they're virtually the last airline standing.


    The fact is you or I don't know how long IAG can be self-sufficient without needing to go to the government, simply because nobody can quantify how long this will go on for. Do we know how much cash per day BA and other IAG airlines are burning through at the moment?

    As for people keeping bringing IAG into this, when you look at BA's past form in particular, it's safe to assume there will be no tears shed at Waterside if VS were to go under. I get it's natural for any business that hasn't got a monopoly to see their competitors fail and BA obviously stand to benefit from any VS failure, however I do expect fares to rise across the board which isn't necessarily good for the consumer.

    BA777FO wrote:
    Clearly lower prices are good for consumers, but not when they're so low you get continuous failures with people stranded downroute. Prices need to not only be low, but sustainable. If Virgin fail there will still be fierce competition to/from London.


    Is there a link between low fares and failure rates?

    As for London, whilst I agree there's still choice from London the same cannot be said for Manchester. With the exception of Florida and one of Atlanta or New York, I don't envisage anybody else stepping into the breach and I'd be somewhat surprised if BA in particular choose to resume long-haul flying from MAN as a result.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5462
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:23 pm

    Competition is always better, but how much additional competition is VS providing to BA? U2 and FR are far more important in providing competition to intra-Europe travel. To North America, UA/DL will still provide competition if VS is not around. And to rest of the world, how many places does VS fly to from LHR that don't already have competition from other non-BA airlines? I suspect the number is really low.

    And if VS goes under, those slots are not just going to go away. There are a lot of foreign airlines from Asia, middle east who would be interested in those slots and provide additional competition to BA.

    There is a huge difference between VS and BA/FR/U2. VS was losing money before this started. The other airlines were making money. It makes far less sense to prop up a business that can't make money even during the good times.
     
    Arion640
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:28 pm

    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.
     
    Galwayman
    Posts: 913
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:29 pm

    VS never really competed against BA and has never had a solid business plan with no significant records of savings or profits. It's just really dragging away at the opportunities for proper airlines. Time to let it go ..... something better will emerge and most of their staff would be better off working for Easy
     
    f4f3a
    Posts: 620
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm

    easyJet owns quite a few aircraft which could be used as collateral . Looking at Vs earlier posts not much backing for a loan as assets have already been used to finance. Not sure what deal would have to be . Take over share in airline . I guess the finance bods in uk gov are looking carefully at this
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
    Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:33 pm

    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.

    Virgin actually can’t. Only investment grade airlines can access that loan and virgin is not investment grade
     
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    cv990Coronado
    Posts: 383
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:47 pm

    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.


    I don't think it is the same at all. Easyjet has been profitable for years, it has many assets as security and of course carries far more passengers. I also think it has a much larger British shareholding.
    Although I have flown many times on Virgin and have many miles in credit, I think in these really terrible times that all cannot survive especially at taxpayers expense.
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    jomur
    Posts: 367
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:37 pm

    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.


    Do you have a source for this?
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:02 pm

    jomur wrote:
    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.


    Do you have a source for this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... y-and-bank
     
    Arion640
    Posts: 3112
    Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm

    jomur wrote:
    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.


    Do you have a source for this?



    https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/04/0 ... overnment/
     
    Boeing74741R
    Posts: 1439
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:05 pm

    Galwayman wrote:
    VS never really competed against BA and has never had a solid business plan with no significant records of savings or profits. It's just really dragging away at the opportunities for proper airlines. Time to let it go ..... something better will emerge and most of their staff would be better off working for Easy


    1. Please define what a "proper carrier" is

    2. How is their continued presence "dragging away" opportunities for others? We're no longer in the days of Bermuda II and since then there's been little to stop other airlines directly competing against them on certain routes if they wished, even at LHR if they can get the slots

    3. Have you worked for both easyJet and Virgin Atlantic to be able to comment which airline is better to work for?

    4. If VS are no competition to BA, why did we have the Dirty Tricks scandal that led to BA being taken to court and paid out to SRB? Some of the stuff that BA staff involved got up to at the time would be illegal nowadays (if not back then) and I doubt some of their employees would have gone to the lengths they did to attempt to eliminate them as competitors if they didn't see them as one. I've also seen nothing in the last 30 years to indicate they are any less of a competitor now than they were during the early-90's when they did what they did other than not growing to a similar level of scale as BA. The fact is they are a competitor to BA for as long as they go after some of the same market and compete on the same routes. I acknowledge though that in the last few years BA/IAG have been more fixated with Norwegian than VS.
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
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    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:19 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    Galwayman wrote:
    VS never really competed against BA and has never had a solid business plan with no significant records of savings or profits. It's just really dragging away at the opportunities for proper airlines. Time to let it go ..... something better will emerge and most of their staff would be better off working for Easy


    1. Please define what a "proper carrier" is

    2. How is their continued presence "dragging away" opportunities for others? We're no longer in the days of Bermuda II and since then there's been little to stop other airlines directly competing against them on certain routes if they wished, even at LHR if they can get the slots

    3. Have you worked for both easyJet and Virgin Atlantic to be able to comment which airline is better to work for?

    4. If VS are no competition to BA, why did we have the Dirty Tricks scandal that led to BA being taken to court and paid out to SRB? Some of the stuff that BA staff involved got up to at the time would be illegal nowadays (if not back then) and I doubt some of their employees would have gone to the lengths they did to attempt to eliminate them as competitors if they didn't see them as one. I've also seen nothing in the last 30 years to indicate they are any less of a competitor now than they were during the early-90's when they did what they did other than not growing to a similar level of scale as BA. The fact is they are a competitor to BA for as long as they go after some of the same market and compete on the same routes. I acknowledge though that in the last few years BA/IAG have been more fixated with Norwegian than VS.

    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under
     
    Boeing74741R
    Posts: 1439
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:17 pm

    Opus99 wrote:
    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under


    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5462
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:40 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under


    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.


    JetBlue might have reduced TATL ambitions out of this, but London is a market they will get into. At this point, getting good slots at LGW should be pretty easy. If they are lucky, they might even get slots at LHR.

    Frankly, JetBlue entry into LHR will do more to lower the prices of J Cabin on NYC/BOS-LHR than VS ever could, since they are a new LCC entry that has shown the ability to dramatically reduce fares in the US transcon markets, which have the same players. The reason is because as a JV with DL, VS doesn't bring additional competition in these markets.

    Again, reallocation of slots from VS to other players around the world could simply result in additional competition which VS is not offering against BA right now. There are very few markets that VS serves out of LHR that do not have competition to BA.
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
    Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:56 pm

    Boeing74741R wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under


    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.

    In a post covid 19 market when things are more settled. I feel like jet blue will certainly give transatlantic carriers a run for their money and for BA transatlantic is pays big bills, especially more so than virgin simply because they have the financial ability to more of a threat than virgin they’re going to drive prices down on j products and even Alex Cruz is also watching jet blue carefully because he believes they’ll be good competition. Jet blue has a strong and healthy domestic network which contain routes that can probably serve as feeders for their trans Atlantic routes. Something that VS tried to have and failed and has ultimately capped their profitability
     
    Boof02671
    Posts: 2275
    Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:27 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under


    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.


    JetBlue might have reduced TATL ambitions out of this, but London is a market they will get into. At this point, getting good slots at LGW should be pretty easy. If they are lucky, they might even get slots at LHR.

    Frankly, JetBlue entry into LHR will do more to lower the prices of J Cabin on NYC/BOS-LHR than VS ever could, since they are a new LCC entry that has shown the ability to dramatically reduce fares in the US transcon markets, which have the same players. The reason is because as a JV with DL, VS doesn't bring additional competition in these markets.

    Again, reallocation of slots from VS to other players around the world could simply result in additional competition which VS is not offering against BA right now. There are very few markets that VS serves out of LHR that do not have competition to BA.

    JetBlue doesn’t have a plane capable yet. Nor do they have ETOPS and slots are use it or lose it.
     
    EWRFlyer
    Posts: 6
    Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:02 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:34 pm

    I get it some of you don't like VS or you clearly work for BA!

    But you have to remember this is exceptional circumstances and we all should be doing our best
    to help our colleagues within the industry, instead of the sharpening of knives that I see going on in this thread

    There are 8500 employees at Virgin that will end up on unemployment, further putting
    strain on the economy.

    The I'm all right jack attitude, won't go far with the paying public when there
    stuck with BA or a foreign carrier for long haul, with the boring, insipid and expensive service

    Don't forget the government bail outs for BA in the 80's, what BA did to Laker, BCal and Dan Air.
    The dirty tricks campaign against Virgin.

    Some of you have very short memories
     
    User avatar
    chepos
    Posts: 7273
    Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:56 pm

    Opus99 wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    They’re a competitor by definition but in the grand scheme of things are they really? Look at all the big European carriers take a look at their capital makers presentation for example when they compare themselves to “industry standards” depending on whatever the topic might be. Virgin simply isn’t there. The brand is good yes but when push comes to shove. They’re irrelevant in a lot of ways. And they are holding valuable Heathrow slots that other serious competitors like jet blue could make use of. As of now The thought of jet blue coming into the market is more though provoking for the trans Atlantic business than virgin who is already in it. It allows DL to take over those translatif routes since they’ve used virgin to build the UK establishment they wanted. Of course this is when the market recovers. If not for the argument of the jobs of 8000 people. I see no other reason virgin should not go under


    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.

    In a post covid 19 market when things are more settled. I feel like jet blue will certainly give transatlantic carriers a run for their money and for BA transatlantic is pays big bills, especially more so than virgin simply because they have the financial ability to more of a threat than virgin they’re going to drive prices down on j products and even Alex Cruz is also watching jet blue carefully because he believes they’ll be good competition. Jet blue has a strong and healthy domestic network which contain routes that can probably serve as feeders for their trans Atlantic routes. Something that VS tried to have and failed and has ultimately capped their profitability

    VS has plenty of feed on the US side, what do you think DL does. To say B6 would be a bigger competitor to BA than VS is extremely daft.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Fly the Flag!!!!
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5462
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:07 pm

    chepos wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:

    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.

    In a post covid 19 market when things are more settled. I feel like jet blue will certainly give transatlantic carriers a run for their money and for BA transatlantic is pays big bills, especially more so than virgin simply because they have the financial ability to more of a threat than virgin they’re going to drive prices down on j products and even Alex Cruz is also watching jet blue carefully because he believes they’ll be good competition. Jet blue has a strong and healthy domestic network which contain routes that can probably serve as feeders for their trans Atlantic routes. Something that VS tried to have and failed and has ultimately capped their profitability

    VS has plenty of feed on the US side, what do you think DL does. To say B6 would be a bigger competitor to BA than VS is extremely daft.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I think he is saying B6 would have a better chance of lowering fares, since it has actually lowered prices with mint before.
     
    Galwayman
    Posts: 913
    Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:34 pm

    Opus99 wrote:
    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.

    Virgin actually can’t. Only investment grade airlines can access that loan and virgin is not investment grade


    There you go , if it’s not good enough for investors , it’s not good enough for the tax payer . End of .
     
    skipness1E
    Posts: 4855
    Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:14 pm

    In terms of self awareness, chatting about the impact of JetBlue’s London operation on BA is nonsense on stilts!
    The size of transatlantic market isn’t going to be able to sustain VS, BA and the AMERICAN legacies at anything near their Summer 2019 volumes until God only knows when. Summer 2020 is a write off already, forward bookings have collapsed as unemployment had skyrocketed and household incomes have collapsed. Only the fact we’re on lockdown means this hasn’t hit home just yet. With summer gone, Virgin will not be able to trade through the dead winter months without a major investment from someone, nor will Norwegian. Neither will have enough cash.

    But yeah, JetBlue are gonna swoop in with A321s and make millions against a BA who will slash and burn prices just to survive. I don’t see ANY money to be made for B6 here before 2022 minimum.
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
    Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:40 pm

    chepos wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    Boeing74741R wrote:

    I don’t think anybody is disputing the fact that the scale of VS is minuscule compared to AF, KL or LH. Certainly in the eyes of BA these three are more closely matched in terms of scale due to their sizes, hub models and all being their respective nation’s flag carriers than VS. The difference is though neither of them are directly competing with BA out of London with their own non-stop services, though I recall AF’s effort to LAX shortly after the EU-US Open Skies agreement cam to fruition. Only BA can truly answer whether they see VS as competitors and in what way.

    The relevancy or otherwise is objective. I’m sceptical by your suggestion that jetBlue could make better use of LHR slots as besides connectivity at the US end and potentially lower fares, I’m not sure they can offer anything different to what’s already on offer from VS and others (and before anybody asks, I have flown with jetBlue). I’m also a bit sceptical about whether they will still proceed with their TATL aspirations under their current timescales given the COVID-19 predicament, as I see most airlines currently being in survival mode and making permanent fleet cuts. I’m also not sure if Delta have enough brand awareness here in the UK despite being 49% owners for some time now. Look at how the MAN-ATL and MAN-JFK routes transferred from DL to VS for instance.

    Your penultimate sentence about the workforce is an important one. Frankly I feel for anybody currently employed in the industry at the moment. It mustn’t be nice in particular for those who are employed by airlines in the news seeking government assistance to also read this thread and see there are people calling for their employers to fail. Some people on this thread need to have a bit more empathy for the employee’s who work for them, especially those who are currently sat at home on furlough wondering whether or not all this is going to lead to permanently losing their jobs.

    In a post covid 19 market when things are more settled. I feel like jet blue will certainly give transatlantic carriers a run for their money and for BA transatlantic is pays big bills, especially more so than virgin simply because they have the financial ability to more of a threat than virgin they’re going to drive prices down on j products and even Alex Cruz is also watching jet blue carefully because he believes they’ll be good competition. Jet blue has a strong and healthy domestic network which contain routes that can probably serve as feeders for their trans Atlantic routes. Something that VS tried to have and failed and has ultimately capped their profitability

    VS has plenty of feed on the US side, what do you think DL does. To say B6 would be a bigger competitor to BA than VS is extremely daft.

    Please relax there. Let’s even put feed aside because the reality is that DL feeder routes connect mostly onto DL flights. Same way most Lufthansa feeder routes probably would connect onto a lufthansa flight and not a DL flight. Home turfs make a différence for feeder routes. I believe at least. I’m sure US feeder brought in numbers clearly not enough to still make the business viable or turn a profit. BUT my main argument here as to why B6 will be a better competitor is because they will certainly be more felt across the Atlantic. They’ll have an effect on ticket prices and let’s not forget they have the means. (Well in the midsts of covid no but maybe from 2022/23?) Virgin simply does not have the means to make the market move. They charge the same price as other transatlantic operates for much less convenience. Everything is point to point. B6 is taking their healthy domestic route network with ability to feed them into a flight across the Atlantic into Europe etc. Then there’s the angle of having transatlantic travel at a much reasonable price. Everyone knows that Jet Blue coming in (if they do it right) will make some moves in the market. Making them much more relevant that Virgin. So let’s look at what is really happening here. VS has had poor financials, a weak balance sheet while BA has grown from strength to strength in that period And you’re trying to tell me they’re completion. Let’s not forget the list of contracts that BA has with multiple companies all over the world because of their extensive route network. Virgin simply cannot even replicate that. If you’re going to be competition at least actually drag my business from me this is also bearing in mind how POOR the BA service had gotten to and they STILL couldn’t make headway. Again. Please. I think B6 has a better chance at brining something relevant into the market with those Heathrow slots.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
    Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:42 pm

    skipness1E wrote:
    In terms of self awareness, chatting about the impact of JetBlue’s London operation on BA is nonsense on stilts!
    The size of transatlantic market isn’t going to be able to sustain VS, BA and the AMERICAN legacies at anything near their Summer 2019 volumes until God only knows when. Summer 2020 is a write off already, forward bookings have collapsed as unemployment had skyrocketed and household incomes have collapsed. Only the fact we’re on lockdown means this hasn’t hit home just yet. With summer gone, Virgin will not be able to trade through the dead winter months without a major investment from someone, nor will Norwegian. Neither will have enough cash.

    But yeah, JetBlue are gonna swoop in with A321s and make millions against a BA who will slash and burn prices just to survive. I don’t see ANY money to be made for B6 here before 2022 minimum.

    Nobody expects jet blue to be in the market before 2022. But if BA slash and burn prices then jet blue has made themselves a worthy competitor because that’s the whole point of competition.
     
    KingB123
    Posts: 191
    Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:30 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:17 am

    Galwayman wrote:
    Opus99 wrote:
    Arion640 wrote:
    Easyjet have just secured a £600m government loan. No reason Virgin couldn’t do the same.

    Virgin actually can’t. Only investment grade airlines can access that loan and virgin is not investment grade


    There you go , if it’s not good enough for investors , it’s not good enough for the tax payer . End of .


    Its in Richard Bransons hands, if he wants his airline to survive, he better cough up or its time we laid virgin to rest. Complete disregard to the loyal employees for the company and it is them that I feel absolutely sorry for.
    King B
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5462
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:21 am

    skipness1E wrote:
    In terms of self awareness, chatting about the impact of JetBlue’s London operation on BA is nonsense on stilts!
    The size of transatlantic market isn’t going to be able to sustain VS, BA and the AMERICAN legacies at anything near their Summer 2019 volumes until God only knows when. Summer 2020 is a write off already, forward bookings have collapsed as unemployment had skyrocketed and household incomes have collapsed. Only the fact we’re on lockdown means this hasn’t hit home just yet. With summer gone, Virgin will not be able to trade through the dead winter months without a major investment from someone, nor will Norwegian. Neither will have enough cash.

    But yeah, JetBlue are gonna swoop in with A321s and make millions against a BA who will slash and burn prices just to survive. I don’t see ANY money to be made for B6 here before 2022 minimum.

    nobody said they will be making money before 2022. In fact, it's likely their plans to start in first half of 2021 has been pushed back now. And with DY looking to go belly up, there is certainly place in the market for B6. And if VS goes belly up, DL's London schedule out of NYC/BOS will take a huge hit. This will be a less competitive landscape to go into.
     
    User avatar
    usdcaguy
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:27 am

    tphuang wrote:
    skipness1E wrote:
    In terms of self awareness, chatting about the impact of JetBlue’s London operation on BA is nonsense on stilts!
    The size of transatlantic market isn’t going to be able to sustain VS, BA and the AMERICAN legacies at anything near their Summer 2019 volumes until God only knows when. Summer 2020 is a write off already, forward bookings have collapsed as unemployment had skyrocketed and household incomes have collapsed. Only the fact we’re on lockdown means this hasn’t hit home just yet. With summer gone, Virgin will not be able to trade through the dead winter months without a major investment from someone, nor will Norwegian. Neither will have enough cash.

    But yeah, JetBlue are gonna swoop in with A321s and make millions against a BA who will slash and burn prices just to survive. I don’t see ANY money to be made for B6 here before 2022 minimum.

    nobody said they will be making money before 2022. In fact, it's likely their plans to start in first half of 2021 has been pushed back now. And with DY looking to go belly up, there is certainly place in the market for B6. And if VS goes belly up, DL's London schedule out of NYC/BOS will take a huge hit. This will be a less competitive landscape to go into.


    How do we know that VS wouldn't sell its slots to DL for a pittance right before they went into administration?

    This discussion in general is pretty rancid and is entirely predicated on the survival of the fittest rather than the impact of firing 8,500 people. I think the employees at VS deserve a fair shake, and a bailout from the government would help preserve the incomes of some of their employees who have accumulated a lot of seniority with the company and thus make far more than they would at any other carrier. As far as B6 is concerned, their launch into Transatlantic service is no more than an afterthought at this point. I don't see them launching anything until they get back on their feet for a while, and that will be a long time in coming, as their main market is the US leisure traveler who will be too broke to take a vacation after all is said and done.
     
    Opus99
    Posts: 1154
    Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:48 am

    usdcaguy wrote:
    tphuang wrote:
    skipness1E wrote:
    In terms of self awareness, chatting about the impact of JetBlue’s London operation on BA is nonsense on stilts!
    The size of transatlantic market isn’t going to be able to sustain VS, BA and the AMERICAN legacies at anything near their Summer 2019 volumes until God only knows when. Summer 2020 is a write off already, forward bookings have collapsed as unemployment had skyrocketed and household incomes have collapsed. Only the fact we’re on lockdown means this hasn’t hit home just yet. With summer gone, Virgin will not be able to trade through the dead winter months without a major investment from someone, nor will Norwegian. Neither will have enough cash.

    But yeah, JetBlue are gonna swoop in with A321s and make millions against a BA who will slash and burn prices just to survive. I don’t see ANY money to be made for B6 here before 2022 minimum.

    nobody said they will be making money before 2022. In fact, it's likely their plans to start in first half of 2021 has been pushed back now. And with DY looking to go belly up, there is certainly place in the market for B6. And if VS goes belly up, DL's London schedule out of NYC/BOS will take a huge hit. This will be a less competitive landscape to go into.


    How do we know that VS wouldn't sell its slots to DL for a pittance right before they went into administration?

    This discussion in general is pretty rancid and is entirely predicated on the survival of the fittest rather than the impact of firing 8,500 people. I think the employees at VS deserve a fair shake, and a bailout from the government would help preserve the incomes of some of their employees who have accumulated a lot of seniority with the company and thus make far more than they would at any other carrier. As far as B6 is concerned, their launch into Transatlantic service is no more than an afterthought at this point. I don't see them launching anything until they get back on their feet for a while, and that will be a long time in coming, as their main market is the US leisure traveler who will be too broke to take a vacation after all is said and done.


    Like I said earlier on. The only argument that is justified for saving virgin is the impact it will have on its employees. But In an economic shock like this it is all about survival of the fittest.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5462
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:59 am

    usdcaguy wrote:
    How do we know that VS wouldn't sell its slots to DL for a pittance right before they went into administration?

    This discussion in general is pretty rancid and is entirely predicated on the survival of the fittest rather than the impact of firing 8,500 people. I think the employees at VS deserve a fair shake, and a bailout from the government would help preserve the incomes of some of their employees who have accumulated a lot of seniority with the company and thus make far more than they would at any other carrier. As far as B6 is concerned, their launch into Transatlantic service is no more than an afterthought at this point. I don't see them launching anything until they get back on their feet for a while, and that will be a long time in coming, as their main market is the US leisure traveler who will be too broke to take a vacation after all is said and done.

    Well, VS apparently took out a loan with those slots as collateral. Don't see how the creditors will allow them to sell that.

    For employees of VS, the idea is the same as any major recession that we have. When the industry is back to normal, a lot of them will be employed by other airlines and some of them will change industries. It's not the gov't's rule to rescue every business. Clearly, there have been quite a few airlines that have stopped operations in the past couple of years including FlyBe just recently.

    And you seem to have incomplete understanding of JetBlue business model.
     
    EWRFlyer
    Posts: 6
    Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:02 am

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:07 am

    nonrev wrote:
    I think this deserves its own discussion away from the general thread.

    Large VS suppliers such as Airbus & Tolls Royce have written to the UK government.

    Will the UK Govt support VS? Or will this lead to issues with the rest of the industry? Is the solution consolidation into ‘UK Airlines’ with the government as the major shareholder?

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... t-11966892



    Its time to close the thread lots of people with no real facts or understanding of what is going on in the real world

    Those who actually work for an airline will understand this
     
    jomur
    Posts: 367
    Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

    Re: Virgin Atlantic needs government support?

    Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:52 am

    EWRFlyer wrote:
    I get it some of you don't like VS or you clearly work for BA!

    But you have to remember this is exceptional circumstances and we all should be doing our best
    to help our colleagues within the industry, instead of the sharpening of knives that I see going on in this thread

    There are 8500 employees at Virgin that will end up on unemployment, further putting
    strain on the economy.

    The I'm all right jack attitude, won't go far with the paying public when there
    stuck with BA or a foreign carrier for long haul, with the boring, insipid and expensive servipce

    Don't forget the government bail outs for BA in the 80's, what BA did to Laker, BCal and Dan Air.
    The dirty tricks campaign against Virgin.
    i
    Some of you have very short memories


    The amount of money needed to bailout Virgin and keep it going just to save 8500 jobs will be better spent on saving many many more usually profitable UK based tax paying companies who employ 100,000s more people., and that is Virgin's main problem...

    Also with SRB moving his Galactic ownership to a offshore tax haven won't help him the UK Government and public either.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ ... hares/amp/
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