I want to see EasyJet saved. Stelios created a masterpiece of an airline.

However, Stelios just trousered an eye-watering £60m dividend saying it should have been paid last year.

He can bin the Airbus order (saying as an ex Airbus employee) because he knows Airbus has a far greater chance of state support.

If Stelios and his billionaire family are willing to save EasyJet, should the UK do the same?

If the UK doesn’t, could this leave Ryanair to fill the gap and raise charges?

It would be a great shame if there was effectively a single monopoly LCC airline in Europe and the citizens of Europe would be poorer for having little or no effective competition

Easyjet a far better airline than Ryanair IMHO. I have flown them hundreds of times. Would be terrible to lose them.

Help me understand why one UK airline with a billionaire owner is worthy of saving in your opinion, but another isn’t?

SimProgrammer wrote:

I want to see EasyJet saved. Stelios created a masterpiece of an airline.

However, Stelios just trousered an eye-watering £60m dividend saying it should have been paid last year.

He can bin the Airbus order (saying as an ex Airbus employee) because he knows Airbus has a far greater chance of state support.

If Stelios and his billionaire family are willing to save EasyJet, should the UK do the same?

If the UK doesn’t, could this leave Ryanair to fill the gap and raise charges?

Who's going to save Ryanair?

Ryanair is cash rich. If Ireland wants to bail it at it's time of need, it can

scbriml wrote:

Help me understand why one UK airline with a billionaire owner is worthy of saving in your opinion, but another isn’t?

EasyJet innovates while VS replicates (British Airways).

VS11 wrote:

SimProgrammer wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Help me understand why one UK airline with a billionaire owner is worthy of saving in your opinion, but another isn’t?

EasyJet innovates while VS replicates (British Airways).

Did you just rewrite the past 30 years of aviation history? BA (and not only them) are the one copying VS. VS introduced Premium Economy way before BA and others started it. VS introduced seat-screens in economy way before anyone else. VS strategy of offering a first-class service at business class prices - Upper Class - got copied by every other airline in the world - that's why you see flat-bed seats in business class and why generally first class offerings have been shrinking.

Slight exaggeration there. BA invented the flat bed business class and was the first to install it. Second offering a first class service at a business class price is why VS barely makes money in good years and is now begging the taxpayer for money. Virgin has definitely improved the overall service in the UK at least for economy passengers but I wouldn’t go overboard with the belief that everyone is copying VS.

As for EasyJet, they have seemed like a decent airline, although I don’t really get the attraction as they never seem that cheap and I hate LGW so tend to avoid them. However, it is increasingly difficult to ask for taxpayers money when you just paid out £60m dividend to an already rich non-Dom. Again, as I said in the VS thread, any Government support should result in the UK taking a stake in said carrier, which can be returned when the money is paid back or sold off in due course to return the funds.

Easyjet have messed up by paying out a recent dividend to their shareholders in the last two weeks. Approximately £175 million.

VS11 wrote:

Did you just rewrite the past 30 years of aviation history?.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear.

SRB’s business model is to replicate BA’s profitable long-haul routes and putting the Virgin brand on them.

Not just BA, he dabbles in other peoples business lines, be it CocaCola, trains or mobile phone subscriptions, again adding the Virgin sticker.

Without coronavirus, suing the NHS was an own goal. Putting the Virgin Care brand on NHS services achieved nothing positive. If he really cared, he should have put his loyal VS workforce on life-support instead of making a token offer while languishing on his tax-free Caribbean island

Arion640 wrote:

Easyjet have messed up by paying out a recent dividend to their shareholders in the last two weeks. Approximately £175 million.

A good business leader knows how to privatize his profits and socialize his losses.

VS11 wrote:

Sorry, this is a ridiculous argument. If you are against competition, not sure I can add anything. Are you saying there should be only company in any given industry? One supermarket?

Of course not. I'm all for competition. It stimulates innovation.

The last 30 years VS has been BA bashing. Last month I was at LHR T5 departures, I saw a big advertisement for VS.

I don't see AF, LH or IB getting this level of treatment from a competitor, let alone paint their aircraft liveries with digs at BA.

Any government bailouts should come with equity and haircuts for existing equity holders.

SimProgrammer wrote:

The last 30 years VS has been BA bashing. Last month I was at LHR T5 departures, I saw a big advertisement for VS.

Oh how terrible.

Stelios is a mouth on legs and is the reason ENTREPRENEURS DON NOT RUN BUSINESSES. As a founder, his success rate is tiny and he’s the wealthy son of a family worth billions. He does not run, and has not run easyJet for years. He uses it as a cash cow and extracts as much as he can from it, at the risk of not investing for the future.
Having said that, the agreement to pay was made in good faith and should be completed. You shouldn’t decide what corporate rules to obey!

SimProgrammer wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Help me understand why one UK airline with a billionaire owner is worthy of saving in your opinion, but another isn’t?

EasyJet innovates while VS replicates (British Airways).

Oh, so it's just about "feelings" and your obvious dislike of Virgin and Branson. You do realise Branson and Haji-Ioannou are basically the same person? You're just playing favorites.

Out of the choice of virgin or easyJet it has to be easyJet. They fly routes out of many regional airports providing connectivity all over Europe. If virgin go Under only two airports really lose out.

davies2911 wrote:

Out of the choice of virgin or easyJet it has to be easyJet. They fly routes out of many regional airports providing connectivity all over Europe. If virgin go Under only two airports really lose out.

I’d agree that it’s another reason against VS. EasyJet provide a lot more connectivity especially on routes that perhaps wouldn’t otherwise be served. VS operations are mainly a replication of BA routes and even then heavily skewed to the US from London (a market that will still be competitive without VS)

SimProgrammer wrote:

Ryanair is cash rich. If Ireland wants to bail it at it's time of need, it can

Not really.
Cash & equivalents - accrued expenses = zero.
Accounts payable 1.6 billion.

So most cash is equivalent to prepayments from bookings. Going forward this will end up being refunded and no new bookings coming in, but huge amount of payables, so looks pretty shaky to me.

SimProgrammer wrote:

He can bin the Airbus order (saying as an ex Airbus employee) because he knows Airbus has a far greater chance of state support.

You can't just bin an order. Cancelling an order will incur significant penalties. He will be paying almost full price for aircraft that have already entered production.

SimProgrammer wrote:

If Stelios and his billionaire family are willing to save EasyJet, should the UK do the same?

EasyJet is more than just a UK airline. I'd guess at least 2/3rds of their flights never even touch the UK. Is the UK government ready to bail out an airline that will spend the money operating flights between EU member states and hiring staff from other countries?
IMO, EasyJets finances are way more healthy than most other airlines, except maybe Ryanair and Wizz Air. They will survive.

SimProgrammer wrote:

If the UK doesn’t, could this leave Ryanair to fill the gap and raise charges?

That's basic capitalism, market and demand in a nutshell.

According to the BBC, EasyJet should not need any bail out. They should be able to manage with the assistance which is already on offer :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52130021

BA has not, so far, asked the government for any other specific financial assistance. Nor has EasyJet, where senior sources say the general assistance programmes - wage assistance and loan guarantees - should be sufficient.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why Stelios is so against the Airbus order easyJet last placed and is taking new aircraft deliveries from ? Is it purely selfish so that he could have spunged more money from them without the capital investment into these new planes ?

VSMUT wrote:

SimProgrammer wrote:

He can bin the Airbus order (saying as an ex Airbus employee) because he knows Airbus has a far greater chance of state support.

You can't just bin an order. Cancelling an order will incur significant penalties. He will be paying almost full price for aircraft that have already entered production.

I reckon the best Sir Stelios can hope for is a deferral without penalty.

Anyway, he seems serious about wanting the order cancelled as he's now called an EGM to remove one of the non-executive directors...

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/e ... 96.article

More EGM's to remove other board members will follow...

https://twitter.com/ITVJoel/status/1244399811362729984

Boeing74741R wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

SimProgrammer wrote:

He can bin the Airbus order (saying as an ex Airbus employee) because he knows Airbus has a far greater chance of state support.

You can't just bin an order. Cancelling an order will incur significant penalties. He will be paying almost full price for aircraft that have already entered production.

The best Sir Stelios can hope for is a deferral.

Anyway, he seems serious about wanting the order cancelled as he's now called an EGM to remove one of the non-executive directors...

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/e ... 96.article

More EGM's to remove other board members will follow...

https://twitter.com/ITVJoel/status/1244399811362729984

He has been making tantrums about halting the growth of EasyJet for several years now. Focus on increasing yields and investor payouts instead of growth. It's what cost him his seat on the board in 2010. To an extent I agree with him, but he of all people should know that you can't just drop an order that they are already halfway through receiving out of the blue.

FYI, he also protested the original A320neo order back in 2013.

Basically, the interests of the company and the interests of Stelios don’t match.

Let them die. Who needs competition anyway? Monopolies guarantee higher yields and much more stable shareholder dividends.

Whilst I don't think it'll come to it, it would certainly be a massive loss if easyJet were to fall through. I've always thought they were a far better airline than many gave them credit for. Had many great flights on them over the years, and very few, if any bad ones. They certainly give the legacy airlines a run for their money, and the fares are generally acceptable.

The convince aspect of flying from Bristol is also a big plus, just wish they would fly from Bristol to Tirana so I wouldn't have to trek to Gatwick so often.

Bail it please, I bascially moved continents for easyJet.

He's had tantrums before really didn't like any expansion and also the company not getting Boeing's.
Thinks the deal offered by Boeing was better.
No point keeping the old 319 frames when could be replaced by 320. There aren't many deliveries due this year anyway.

Maybe if demand post Corona is down they could defer or convert to a220 but to cancel is mroonic.
I think he is just upset by the recent attack on him from taking the dividend .

Technically most of the staff costs are being paid by local gov . A bonus of having proper local contracts .
So main cost now is just cancelled bookings.

Personally I don't see why a profitable airline should be allowed to fail due gov actions which do not allow it to function . I would rather bail out a company that pays it's UK taxes etc than one who pays in Ireland or somewhere else

f4f3a wrote:

He's had tantrums before really didn't like any expansion and also the company not getting Boeing's.
Thinks the deal offered by Boeing was better.

I wonder if he still thinks that?

SwissCanuck wrote:

Bail it please, I bascially moved continents for easyJet.

Aren't you the Canadian former smokejumper?
What about U2 has brought you to Switzerland?

As easyjet has taken the decision to ground all aircraft until further notice, is it legal still to sale tickets?!

Waterbomber2 wrote:

SwissCanuck wrote:

Bail it please, I bascially moved continents for easyJet.

Aren't you the Canadian former smokejumper?
What about U2 has brought you to Switzerland?

Well i've jumped with a joint in my mouth but that's another story.

40 chuff flights to anywhere on the continent. Compare to the YOW-YYZ run for instance. I can take 5-10 trips for the same price.

Easyjet has among the largest fleets and carries among the largest amounts of pax in Europe at very low prices. Without them tons of markets will suffer across the continent. It's a no-brainer to save them. Let's hope the UK government doesn't play favourites

Stelios even after the first Airbus order wanted slower expansion and to see the financials between two offers of aircraft. He has had difficult relations with the board for the last 15 years threatening director removal . He was proved wrong as profits increased . He has also remained silent while creaming off a quarter of the last decade in dividends . When carrier hits same stumbling block as everyone else he has a tantrum . His actions are threatening the airline's survival . I wonder whether he might buyout shares while there cheap and he can take majority holding to get what he wants

easyJet needs no bailout ! They have cash reserves of flying the full Programm for 9 month without a single passenger ! Sure it will be hard but before easyJet goes down a lot of other airlines will fold ! In about 2-3 month the flying Programm will start again ! Lots of airlines will habe shrunken by then ! The yields will be higher , more competition will be gone and the airlines will earn more money than before !

Well Ryanair are definitely in a better place than Easyjet.
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04 ... anair.html
They were 2million passengers off their guidance for the quarter/year just ended.
They have no immediate obligations to buy fleet as the Max isn't back in service and the Max200 is further back in the queue of deliveries with Boeing need to bet their backlog of built planes delivered first.
Fuel hedging is hurting them a bit.
They own most of their fleet.
They are sitting on a big cash pile.

Nearly everyone else will go broke before them so long as E.U. States don't give illegal state aid.

Delta777Jet wrote:

easyJet needs no bailout ! They have cash reserves of flying the full Programm for 9 month without a single passenger ! Sure it will be hard but before easyJet goes down a lot of other airlines will fold ! In about 2-3 month the flying Programm will start again ! Lots of airlines will habe shrunken by then ! The yields will be higher , more competition will be gone and the airlines will earn more money than before !

Why would easyJet also not be shrinking? There might be less competition, but there might be fewer passengers too. I don't think we can say for sure that prices will be lower or higher. After 9/11 Ryanair launched a massive seat sale, 99p flights across the network, which the rest of the industry followed and the unbundling trend started in force. At the time Ryanair had around 40 737s, they now have 450+ 738/A320s, its a totally different recovery to the 9/11 slump. Oil looks to remain cheap for idealogical reasons as The Saudis and US Fracking Industry engage in a price war. So the recovery is going to be very difficult to predict and only those with large cash reserves will survive the coming 6 months before cash starts coming through the door. The recovery is going to be very interesting to watch and altogether depends on the medical response to COVID-19, the number of hospitalisations and deaths, the length of which directly impacts on the length of "lock down" and the economic impact. The development of a vaccine in the long term will make a difference to recovery, as will oil prices and government stimulus packages. The widespread use of video conferencing will change behaviours dramatically and impact on travel in all forms, from commuting to business travel.

BTW - are the number of exclamation marks really necessary? It's not good writing practice. The trend of substituting full stops for exclamation marks reminds me of Mr Trump on Twitter. It does not add anything to the argument, or weight to the opinion being expressed.

leghorn wrote:

They have no immediate obligations to buy fleet as the Max isn't back in service and the Max200 is further back in the queue of deliveries with Boeing need to bet their backlog of built planes delivered first.

Except that Boeing have indeed built some of Ryanair's Max200s, and photos of them are on this site. Now they do need to be certified separately because there's a need for evacuation tests to be successfully carried out - the passenger capacity is higher than the "normal" MAX8 was certified for. Not surprisingly everyone involved is concentrating on getting the "normal" version flying again first.

I think I only saw one airframe and it has certification issues.

leghorn wrote:

I think I only saw one airframe and it has certification issues.

There are pictures of 6 separate Frames (EI-HAT/U/V/W/Y and EI-HGE) in the database here, and I'd imagine that at least EI-HAX/Z and EI-HGA/B/C/D have also been built to keep the sequences going. There's also at least 1 Max 8-200 stored in Buzz colours on the Polish registry (SP-RZC).

https://www.airliners.net/search?aircra ... raft=72377

VSMUT wrote:

SimProgrammer wrote:

If Stelios and his billionaire family are willing to save EasyJet, should the UK do the same?

EasyJet is more than just a UK airline. I'd guess at least 2/3rds of their flights never even touch the UK. Is the UK government ready to bail out an airline that will spend the money operating flights between EU member states and hiring staff from other countries?

Actually, that’s only true in part. There are 3 different legal entities holding 3 different AOCs.
One in Switzerland (EZS), one in Austria (EZU) and the original in the UK (EZY)
All three use the brand “easyjet”, the same booking engine, systems, check-in, resources.... paying a franchisee fee to the one holding the easyjet rights.

EZU and EZY are about the same size in fleet. And no EU27-EU27 flights are currently (read last month... year) flown by the British entity but the Austrian one under the Austrian and European flag.

Aisak wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

SimProgrammer wrote:

If Stelios and his billionaire family are willing to save EasyJet, should the UK do the same?

EasyJet is more than just a UK airline. I'd guess at least 2/3rds of their flights never even touch the UK. Is the UK government ready to bail out an airline that will spend the money operating flights between EU member states and hiring staff from other countries?

Actually, that’s only true in part. There are 3 different legal entities holding 3 different AOCs.
One in Switzerland (EZS), one in Austria (EZU) and the original in the UK (EZY)
All three use the brand “easyjet”, the same booking engine, systems, check-in, resources.... paying a franchisee fee to the one holding the easyjet rights.

EZU and EZY are about the same size in fleet. And no EU27-EU27 flights are currently (read last month... year) flown by the British entity but the Austrian one under the Austrian and European flag.

Also this is not correct. easyJet PLC is the main company that operates 3 airlines, with 3 operating certificates: UK, Austria and Switzerland: easyJet UK (U2 or EZY, established 2017) easyJet Europe (EZ or EJU, established 2017) and easyJet Switzerland (DS or EZS, a franchisee, 49% owned by easyJet PLC).
easyJet PLC licenses the easyJet brand from easyGroup Limited (‘easyGroup’), a wholly owned subsidiary of
easyGroup Holdings Limited, an entity in which easyJet’s founder, Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou, holds a beneficial
controlling interest.

Sir Stelios has ramped up his objections to the Airbus order to another level, making no secret he wants the order cancelled and now names the CFO for removal from the board...

https://easy.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/ ... -final.pdf

I just heard in the BBC R4 news Sir Stelios said easyJet has until August before it runs out of cash. He said this in reference to his support for dumping the Airbus order. It is hitting the usual news wires now:

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/easyjet-founder-warns-airline-could-065542107.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALb2Smx038YhHh46TOctJJ1RITV3wGxnOaPbwGf7PYFybk-ffpKaV3Asle22_HY9qd-22hxN4-oNEDYpQ41M6VPIOaHdjL_1EwKwkN_ZCx5tIM8NoH3d4D8YiUXZI-20tGCUa-3gAap0edBdm8vS-WJS4hjFebCCw629eq3OYxhW

"And the major reason VS was not making money for a while was that VS was not part of an alliance and that's the major reason Branson went to Delta.[/quote]

Considering VS was part owned by SQ before Delta the option to be part of a alliance was always a option.

Stelios is really hurting the company right now by behaving like a spoilt child. He didn't mind how company was run while he was taking millions in dividends. He really needs to sell up or shut up.