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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:33 am

In the end of the day, the government decided not to aid Ansett as there were at least a few players in the Australian market and its collapse was mainly of its own doing. Although it would have to be said that i'd imagine the government would have preferred it to come out of administration, rather than be liquidated as I think this caused a few issue with a lack of competition in the Australian market for a period.

I don't think the government wants another collapse this time, but i'd imagine when they look at the ownership structure of the airline, they probably think this needs to be cleaned up and consolidated under a few steady carriers. Probably what needs to happen is a few of the creditors put some cash into the airline and the ones that don't sell their stakes to the other airlines.
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:36 am

malaysia wrote:
a36001 wrote:
AVENSAB727 wrote:
Could this be return of "Ansett"?


Interesting if that happend. Who owns the Ansett name now?


This would be like wanting Braniff to return, cause Ansett and Braniff were airlines based off a founders last name?

I still see some Ansett planes in Murals on buildings around Mascot.

There are 10 Ansett trademarks currently registered in Australia: https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trade ... t?q=Ansett

  • The trademark Ansett Australia, Ansett Aviation Training and A Ansett Aviation Training (that's with the A logo), all in Class 41 (Education; providing of training; entertainment; sporting and cultural activities.), are owned by Ansett Aviation Training: https://www.ansettaviationtraining.com/
  • The trademark Ansett in Classes 12 (Vehicles; apparatus for locomotion by land, air or water.) and 35 (Advertising; business management; business administration; office functions.) is owned by Ansett Australia Limited, which is the remains of the airline in administration. The trademark was last renewed in June 2011 and is due for renewal in June 2021.
  • The trademarks Ansett, Ansett Gold, Tradewinds by Ansett, Landline Workwear by Ansett, and Ansett Merino Collection, all in Class 25 (Clothing, footwear, headwear.), are all owned by Rasiner Holdings Pty Ltd and Ash Demons Holdings Pty Ltd.
  • The trademark A Ansett Real Estate We Bring You What You Dream in Class 36 (Insurance; financial affairs; monetary affairs; real estate affairs.) is owned by Ansett Real Estate Pty Ltd

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:12 pm

tullamarine wrote:
Highly unlikely as NZ is effectively broke once again and has just received major loan from the NZ Government. They have no money (or skill) to tackle the AU domestic market.


Why would you say that? It's not like VA's current issues nor profitability are Air New Zealand's fault. Your comment implies that Air New Zealand was in control of Virgin, but that's not the case. Their lack of profits and failure to stop the red ink is why Chris Luxton tried to replace JB and, when that wasn't successful, divested Air New Zealand's stake.

IMO it's a shame that ANZ and SIA were never able to take control, oust JB and make the airline work for both of them.
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eta unknown
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:31 pm

And yet the great JB now sits on the BNE Airport (BAC) board and continues to receive a stipend.
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:54 pm

zkojq wrote:
IMO it's a shame that ANZ and SIA were never able to take control, oust JB and make the airline work for both of them.


Can you clarify? How would NZ, SQ and VA have worked given the freedom NZ and SQ needed?
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:33 pm

questions wrote:
zkojq wrote:
IMO it's a shame that ANZ and SIA were never able to take control, oust JB and make the airline work for both of them.


Can you clarify? How would NZ, SQ and VA have worked given the freedom NZ and SQ needed?


- Not wasting money buying Skywest.

- Not wasting money buying the ATRs, flying them for two years then mothballing them whilst still paying the leases on them.

- Not wasting money buying the new A330s for transcon service (could have waited for some used SQ A333s if they were really desperate for capacity to Asia).

- Not having the pissing match with Qantas in the form of the capacity war of 2015(?). Admittedly this one was more Qantas' fault though.

- Keeping up the Tasman Alliance with Air New Zealand and thus keeping the Tasman profitable.

- Not flying near empty 77Ws to Abu Dhabi for years.

- I like to think that SIA could have made the Tiger transition less chaotic and wouldn't have had the airline operating a mixed fleet for five years. Maybe SIA would have just killed Tiger when they saw it wasn't making money?
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:01 pm

zkojq wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Highly unlikely as NZ is effectively broke once again and has just received major loan from the NZ Government. They have no money (or skill) to tackle the AU domestic market.


Why would you say that? It's not like VA's current issues nor profitability are Air New Zealand's fault. Your comment implies that Air New Zealand was in control of Virgin, but that's not the case. Their lack of profits and failure to stop the red ink is why Chris Luxton tried to replace JB and, when that wasn't successful, divested Air New Zealand's stake.

IMO it's a shame that ANZ and SIA were never able to take control, oust JB and make the airline work for both of them.


The SIA executives at the time sided with Borghetti during the 'Clash of the Egos' between Luxon and Borghetti.

It was never going to happen on the dysfunctional VA board when there are 4 major shareholders with thier own objectives.

SIA also had two prior failures in their investments in Australia. First Strike was the Air New Zealand/Ansett group (led by the ego-driven Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing) leaving his hapless sidekick Gary Toomey to shoulder most of the blame, and the Second Strike was the Tiger Airways Australia disaster with the constant maintenance issues. SIA had managerial control on their second go in the Australian market through Tiger Airways and still managed to screw that one up.

If they couldn't get their prior investments in Australia to work, there was no any way SIA could have make their VA attempt (or a subsequent 4th attempt) work.

Adding the VS 'epic fail' investment to SIA's string of investment failures, SIA isn't much better than Etihad when it comes to investments, they are mediocre at best when compared to the string of failures Etihad had.
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:14 pm

zkojq wrote:
- Keeping up the Tasman Alliance with Air New Zealand and thus keeping the Tasman profitable.


Didn’t NZ make the call to end the Tasman Alliance with VA? And not VA’s move, pretty VA found out last minute there were being dropped from the Christmas Card list on then Tasman.

With NZ days later announcing they had formed an domestic partnership with QF instead.

I don’t think NZ would of ever been happy unless they got to control 100% of the airline.

If VA is gone in 6 months time, NZ could probably spare 10 a320/321s that they could operate they own services between main city piers at there own terms.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:19 pm

zkncj wrote:
Didn’t NZ make the call to end the Tasman Alliance with VA? And not VA’s move, pretty VA found out last minute there were being dropped from the Christmas Card list on then Tasman.


Yes but that's my point - if NZ was in full control of VA there would be no reason to drop the tie-up.
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:52 pm

zkojq wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Didn’t NZ make the call to end the Tasman Alliance with VA? And not VA’s move, pretty VA found out last minute there were being dropped from the Christmas Card list on then Tasman.


Yes but that's my point - if NZ was in full control of VA there would be no reason to drop the tie-up.


NZ wouldn't had the financial capacity to 'take over' VA to gain 'full control', they would've had to compete with SQ and the NZ management would be well aware of their predecssor's Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing's adventures with the Ansett fiasco.
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:22 am

SCFlyer wrote:
zkojq wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Didn’t NZ make the call to end the Tasman Alliance with VA? And not VA’s move, pretty VA found out last minute there were being dropped from the Christmas Card list on then Tasman.


Yes but that's my point - if NZ was in full control of VA there would be no reason to drop the tie-up.


NZ wouldn't had the financial capacity to 'take over' VA to gain 'full control'


Exactly. For all of the breathless talk about egos, the main reason NZ bailed on VA is that they were overexposed from a financial risk perspective. With no desire on the VA board for a change in strategic direction, NZ had to walk away to minimise their exposure to future rounds of capital raising to prop up a business that had the potential to drag NZ down with it.
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:04 am

SCFlyer wrote:
Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing's


Why are some people so adamant on making this a thing?
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:28 am

zkojq wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
Selwyn 'Borghetti' Cushing's


Why are some people so adamant on making this a thing?


Cushing is almost exactly like Borghetti.

Despite years of mismanagement by TNT's Peter Abeles before NZ got involved, Cushing is generally singled out as the person who put the final nail in AN's coffin by using his 'veto' right as Brierley Investment's Chairman to block SIA (Singapore Airlines) from purchasing News Corp's 50% of AN, despite fully knowing his company didn't have the balance sheet to fix an ailing AN, all purely due to ego.

Quote Source: https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/ ... -collapse/

"And there was also New Zealand’s fierce national pride. “The Kiwis thought SIA and Ansett were conspiring to cut them out,” said one Ansett executive. So the die was cast and Air New Zealand, against Eddington’s own prediction, made a bid for the remaining 50 per cent of Ansett, blocking SIA.

The Australian Foreign Investment Review Board could have deemed the deal not in the national interest. After all, Brierley was known to be having financial difficulties, having taken significant write offs. SIA clearly was the better capitalised investor. Additionally, although it controlled Air New Zealand, Brierley itself now was controlled by Malaysian interests. The company, while founded in New Zealand, was domiciled in Singapore and registered in Bermuda. But the Australian government did nothing, and thus the outcome was much as Brierley wanted.

Air New Zealand took News Corp’s share in Ansett, and SIA was forced to pursue a back door route by taking a large slab of Brierley’s stake in Air New Zealand. Arguably, the outcome satisfied no-one. SIA ended up in partnership with the company that had blocked its bid for Ansett. "
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Tue May 19, 2020 8:49 pm

Interesting when compared to Branson's comments close on 20 years ago when he was involved in the Ansett Australia debacle, having walked away from a possible rescue deal involving Virgin Blue: 'The best thing to do with Ansett is to close it down and start again'. What goes around comes around?
 
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Re: Australian Government Does Not Plan to Bailout Virgin Australia - Could Create New Airline

Wed May 20, 2020 4:29 pm

The more I read about how the administration process is being handled and the timeline that goes with it, I'm inclined to believe VA will be liquidated. The debt is just too big and the revenue projections bear no semblance to post COVID market reality. Once all the books are opened and the 4 short-listed bidders initiate talks with creditors the real state of VA's financial affairs will emerge and whatever bids materialise will just be for parts of the business. Apparently the bidder that pulled out- Brookfield- has the former VA CFO advising them.

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