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Mortyman
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US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:52 pm

Don't know if this has been posted already. but …

US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

The International President of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL-CIO, Sara Nelson, explains how the coronavirus relief bill puts flight attendant jobs at risk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bsNJMc6-5g


The airline industry is struggling all over the world right now, also in the USA. Hopefully the virus situation won' last for 1-2 years ...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:19 pm

The legislation is what Congress passed and the President signed. It is what is is. Legislation is the product of compromise. Without rights to ownership provisions maybe the sum of grant $ wouldn't have been as large; maybe the anti-layoff provisions wouldn't have extended to 30 September. Sara Nelson needs to stop whining that the industry isn't treated generously enough. Look at what the cruise lines, restaurants and hotel industries got.
 
codc10
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:02 pm

Sara Nelson has done great things for the AFA, but she has larger, political aspirations too. She's clearly talented and charismatic enough to do it. Now that a (bipartisan) deal is done, the partisan rhetoric follows...skill in pragmatic, multilateral deal-making among rivals is of little value to political parties!
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:12 pm

I realize that this topic is inherently political, but please focus on the aviation impacts of this discussion. Political comments belong in Non Av. If this discussion can't stay aviation focused, then it will be moved.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:25 pm

Why not just make the rule on political comments to be relative to the topic? Everything about aviation is political to some degree. It is probably one of the most political industries in the world. Maybe A.Net could look at appropriately adjusting the rules, seems like an unrealistic if not impossible ask..
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:37 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I realize that this topic is inherently political, but please focus on the aviation impacts of this discussion. Political comments belong in Non Av. If this discussion can't stay aviation focused, then it will be moved.

✈️ atcsundevil

Hate to say it, but you might as well move it now, cause it’s damn near impossible to keep it he political aspects out of this.
 
ual763
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:03 pm

May as well move it now. Sara is as politically partisan as they come. She threw an absolute hissy fit during the first bill proposal, even though that version gave more money to the airlines. She then put out a long tweet-storm of how great this new one was and thanked only the left side of the aisle. Now, she thinks the new one is bad? The one she pushed for? Give me a break. I cannot stand this woman.
Last edited by ual763 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
apodino
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:15 pm

Supposedly, Delta lobbied hard for the rules that went into this package, with the possible intention of not taking the money themselves. If this is true, then Delta may have been making a play to put themselves on top in the recovery and making it harder for United and American to come out of this. Conveniently enough, Delta is non-union as well on the Flight Attendant side.

Sara Nelsons concerns are legitimate here, and on the rising this morning, Saagar and Krystal interviewed her on this. But this reeks of something out of the Frank Lorenzo playbook.
 
flyboy80
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:05 am

So the companies are all being tasked with identifying financial instruments to repay their debt, including government equity? Would this not create an uneven competition amongst airlines, as some airlines likely would have different level of government backing and deals?
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:44 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
Why not just make the rule on political comments to be relative to the topic? Everything about aviation is political to some degree. It is probably one of the most political industries in the world. Maybe A.Net could look at appropriately adjusting the rules, seems like an unrealistic if not impossible ask..

We do allow political comments related to the topic. The problem is when it turns into a purely political discussion, while ignoring the aviation focus that this site is supposed to be about. Political discussion within reason is permitted as long as there's an attempt to remain on topic and an attempt to avoid flamebait comments.
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:15 am

I'm confused about this bailout package. It sounds like 50% (25 million) is loans and tax incentives while the other half 25 million is payroll grants attached to this massive equity option- which doesn't make it really a grant at all... Why would the government want equity stakes in the airlines to provide payroll grants? Whats the upside for the US government?
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:11 am

flyboy80 wrote:
I'm confused about this bailout package. It sounds like 50% (25 million) is loans and tax incentives while the other half 25 million is payroll grants attached to this massive equity option- which doesn't make it really a grant at all... Why would the government want equity stakes in the airlines to provide payroll grants? Whats the upside for the US government?

The upside is the government avoids a popular fury similar to the one over the 2008 bank bailout that people perceived as a taxpayer-subsidized lifeline to banks at no cost to their executives and shareholders. This time shareholders are paying a price in the form of diluted equity.

The union is concerned that airline boards will forgo "grants" intended to help the airlines maintain their current level of employment rather than force their shareholders to take a hit.
 
flyboy80
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:23 am

blueflyer wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
I'm confused about this bailout package. It sounds like 50% (25 million) is loans and tax incentives while the other half 25 million is payroll grants attached to this massive equity option- which doesn't make it really a grant at all... Why would the government want equity stakes in the airlines to provide payroll grants? Whats the upside for the US government?

The upside is the government avoids a popular fury similar to the one over the 2008 bank bailout that people perceived as a taxpayer-subsidized lifeline to banks at no cost to their executives and shareholders. This time shareholders are paying a price in the form of diluted equity.

The union is concerned that airline boards will forgo "grants" intended to help the airlines maintain their current level of employment rather than force their shareholders to take a hit.


That makes sense, thank you. They could forgo the payroll grants and take the loans at 25 million with lower equity, correct? If they can take the loans, with the lower equity share they could still cover payroll (and whatever else) and effectively self manage no strings- but will incur debt onto their shareholders, which ultimately I guess means they'd probably execute more aggressive cost saving and downsizing like layoffs. My primary fascination here is if these grants (and loans?) become carrier specific, through application, then some carriers will have more leverage than others. This is a mess.
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:51 am

flyboy80 wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
flyboy80 wrote:
I'm confused about this bailout package. It sounds like 50% (25 million) is loans and tax incentives while the other half 25 million is payroll grants attached to this massive equity option- which doesn't make it really a grant at all... Why would the government want equity stakes in the airlines to provide payroll grants? Whats the upside for the US government?

The upside is the government avoids a popular fury similar to the one over the 2008 bank bailout that people perceived as a taxpayer-subsidized lifeline to banks at no cost to their executives and shareholders. This time shareholders are paying a price in the form of diluted equity.

The union is concerned that airline boards will forgo "grants" intended to help the airlines maintain their current level of employment rather than force their shareholders to take a hit.


That makes sense, thank you. They could forgo the payroll grants and take the loans at 25 million with lower equity, correct? If they can take the loans, with the lower equity share they could still cover payroll (and whatever else) and effectively self manage no strings- but will incur debt onto their shareholders, which ultimately I guess means they'd probably execute more aggressive cost saving and downsizing like layoffs. My primary fascination here is if these grants (and loans?) become carrier specific, through application, then some carriers will have more leverage than others. This is a mess.

You understand that 25 MILLIONS is nothing for the airlines; it's 58 BILLIONS we're talking about for the airlines (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-an ... ulus-bill/)
 
flyboy80
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Yeah, why I keep writing "millions" I don't know...I'm having my coffee now so I should be up to speed. I'm still trying to figure out if the loan and grants are contingent on one another? From the way it's formed in articles, vaguely, they're essentially separate packages valued around 25 billion. That said, weren't all the airlines proponents of passing the relief? Did they really just think they would be handed billions in grants alone to use with little oversight? Surely until the final hours they were lobbying and familiar with the bill structure. I guess at the end of the day they'll be forced to take the relief or file bankruptcy, so who takes relief money first?
 
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Acey559
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:45 pm

Not exactly in relation to this topic at hand, but in watching numerous employee town halls with Oscar, Scott and others (mostly Flight Ops) over the last few days, they are making it seem that they are much more in favor of the grants rather than the loans. I’m not sure a final decision has been made but they said they will definitely be taking grants and might possibly take loans, but prefer to seek those out in the marketplace.

So as far as UA is concerned, jobs will be protected until 09/30 as a function of taking the grant money.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:27 pm

Personally, I do not think any of the major airlines will take the offered money as the "strings" are too expensive. They have to guarantee wages for 6 months... and only a fraction of that money is in the legislation. Accepting $6 Billion (or whatever) and guaranteeing to add say another $12-18 Billion from their own pockets is a poor financial decision. In my opinion the airlines will be in better financial shape to turn down the packages and trim staff.

Now folks, I understand what that means to the employees. I've lost 2/3 of my income over the last month due to covid-19 - and that is not likely to come back. The other 1/3 of my income is from a part time at home "gig" job for a power plant project that is scheduled to end in early to mid May. So I am looking at my options... I'm a firm believer in that there is a seed of a greater opportunity in every setback. I'm looking at starting a new self employed position as soon as I'm well enough to work outside the house again.

Have a great day,
 
flyboy80
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:05 pm

Maybe the government wants to nationalize the US3? Would it make commercial sense? That would seem contra to common conservative opinion but according to Sara's video it was their side that wanted this and "snuck" it in. It must be a doorway to something else...
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:30 am

Going by what Oscar and Scott said in our town hall yesterday, they will take the grants but decline the loans because they don’t want to give up equity to the government. I don’t think the details have been hammered out yet so that could change, but Oscar said they would go to banks first before entertaining the government loans.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:11 am

flyboy80 wrote:
Maybe the government wants to nationalize the US3? Would it make commercial sense? That would seem contra to common conservative opinion but according to Sara's video it was their side that wanted this and "snuck" it in. It must be a doorway to something else...


Well, unions are not the only ones saying that the travel system in the US, as in post-deregulation era, is disfunctional and needs a major reform. And when airlines come to the US Congress demanding the money, business travel advocates remind that the system is, as currently set up, privatizing profit, socializing losses, and delivering sub-par transportation outcomes. Several crises ago, indomitable Joe Brancatelli wrote:

"Almost from the moment this horrific tragedy began on September 11, the major airline executives have been wrapping themselves in the flag and claiming that we owe them taxpayer dollars to prop up a system that was fiscally and morally unsupportable just 10 days ago. These shameless millionaires, who had driven commercial aviation to the brink of collapse long before September 11, have threatened us all with aviation Armageddon if we do not divert tax money to their private coffers.

This is my response: No taxation without reregulation.

If we, as taxpayers, need to step in to save a group of private companies to keep commercial aviation running, then we, as taxpayers, need to regain control of the system. If we open the nation's treasury to keep airlines flying, then the shameless men who lead many of the nation's carriers must go. If we're going to give tax money to the airlines--they want about $12 billion in immediate, direct tax subsidies and an equal amount of loan guarantees--then the industry will have to submit to reregulation, so that the nation can create a safe, fair, intelligently managed aviation mass-transit system."

http://joe.biztravelife.com/01/092001.htm

Once it was clear that airlines ask for more money, than their combined market cap, "nationalization" was floated as a reasonable outcome:
"Here's a better idea: Let's nationalize the Big Six, pay off the shareholders and then put our best minds to work on a gigantic salvage project.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting frequent flyers get together and buy just one airline, a concept I presented two months ago. We're past that now. I'm not even suggesting that we reregulate the airlines, an idea I proposed when the carriers demanded their bailout last year. Regulation now would probably just lock the incompetent bosses and their inefficient practices in place.

What I'm suggesting today is an outright government buyout of the Big Six: American (market cap of $756.8 million); United ($167.3 million); Delta ($1.417 billion); Northwest ($641.6 million); Continental ($375.8 million); and even bankrupt US Airways, selling for 58 cents a share over the counter and worth just $38.1 million. What I'm proposing is that the U.S. government, our duly designated representative, buy these suckers lock, stock, planes, ticket jackets, air-sick bags, under-seat floatation devices and barrels of jet fuel."

http://joe.biztravelife.com/01/092001.htm

As we all know, it has never come to pass. Still, not only unions are not happy with the way the transport system is managed, and see nationalization as a feasible alternative to the "wash, rinse, repeat" cycle of airlines first "posting record profits, paying record executive compensation" and then demanding a bailout when things go south.
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flyboy80
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:50 pm

If US treasury holds warrants 'up to' 40% (?) (Based on what individual carriers propose as "compensation" in their applications) then this will be perhaps the closest thing, or step toward, re-regulating the airlines since deregulation; Is this an accurate statement?
 
e38
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:57 pm

Acey559, when you post on this forum, please keep in mind we do not all have the same point of reference as do you.

When you throw out names, "Oscar," Scott" could you please help us by identifying by last name, position, and Company, as appropriate.

Not all of us happen to be acquainted with Oscar and Scott. Thanks.

e38
 
PI4EVR
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:02 pm

In fairness to Acey559, someone that has been a member of this site and forum for 12 years would assume have likely read of these two well know airline executives.
Specifically, Oscar Munoz joined UA several years ago to replace Jeff Smisek as CEO.
Scott Kirby joined UA as President from his previous positions at AA and US.
These two men are considered instrumental in turning around UA as to customer service, employee relations, operational reliability and growth.
A Town Hall is a group meeting of senior Management and employees to review the company's performance and answer audience questions.
If you've read much of anything on AA, you should also be familiar with Doug Parker who is also referred to as "Dougie" and "DUI Dougie."
As you read threads begin to associate people and places so you have knowledge of more specifics to the company and its people.
Are you familiar with Alex Cruz at BA, Alan Joyce at QF, Akbar al Baker at QR, Michael O'Leary at FR, or the aforementioned Dougie?
These individuals are frequently in the "press" here and should be relatively easy to identify or associate.
Acey559 may work at UA or have family that does hence his reference to the big bosses who conducted the meeting.
 
e38
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:04 pm

PI4EVR, thank you for the clarification and your kind response.

I don’t work for United. Moreover, I do not customarily refer to the CEO or President of a major corporation by first name, nor by nickname.

I appreciate your explanation, nevertheless.

e38
 
e38
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:04 pm

duplicate post in error; deleted.
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:02 pm

Nationalization doesn't have to go with regulation (and in my opinion, regulation is totally obsolete, unless we're talking about reducing CO2 emissions). The state can act as just another shareholder, wanting the company to be competitive and earn money. Then the state can also divest later.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Revelation
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:19 pm

e38 wrote:
PI4EVR, thank you for the clarification and your kind response.

I don’t work for United. Moreover, I do not customarily refer to the CEO or President of a major corporation by first name, nor by nickname.

I appreciate your explanation, nevertheless.

e38

I don't know if it's a USA thing, but referring to the CEO by his/her first name or preferred nickname seems to be the practice inside all big corporations, in my case, going back to the 80s. To me it seemed to be name dropping, a way the person using the name made it look as if they had some inside connection to the corridors of power, whether they did or not, and most did not. It is just another part of the baloney that is corporate life. One place I worked really seemed to worship the CEO as a hero to a degree that would make Stalin blush, but that's how we rolled.
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Acey559
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Re: US Flight attendants union blasts congress, Mnuchin, for denying workers relief

Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:08 pm

I didn’t mean to confuse anyone, I shouldn’t have assumed that everyone here knows who our CEO and president (soon to be CEO) are.

As for the informality, everyone here refers to Oscar by his first name. I think it began as a way to change the culture at United. Things were pretty dark after the Jeff Smisek (former CEO) era and Oscar wanted to cultivate a more welcoming and family-oriented culture. I’ve only been a pilot for United for 8 months, so I wasn’t around for the difficulties prior, but just about everyone around reveres Oscar for what he has done. I think that informality has carried over to Scott (Kirby) as he transitions into the CEO role at the end of May.

Apologies for the sidebar.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.

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