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Arion640
Posts: 3257
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:53 pm

PartsGuy20 wrote:
How does one go about acquiring parts from an aircraft that is being scrapped, without waiting/hoping they show up from a separate company like Aerotiques? My wife and I flew on CIVR on our honeymoon and I'm interested in getting something off of it once the scrapping process begins - would I have to contact the scrapping company directly? Does anyone have info on doing this?


Plane reclaimers are selling parts from the St Athan scrapped frames.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1332
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:44 am

Think the scraping company in Teruel is ecube, the same crowd as at DGX. They just opened a Spanish operation that’s all.
Give them a call at St Athan.
 
PartsGuy20
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:09 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:55 pm

Thanks for the info everyone. I'll give it a try!
 
a2b7
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:31 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Think the scraping company in Teruel is ecube, the same crowd as at DGX. They just opened a Spanish operation that’s all.
Give them a call at St Athan.

I am afraid the scrapping company in Teruel is Tarmac Aerosave, which also has facilities in Tarbes, Toulouse Francazal and Châlons Vatry.
eCube's facilities in Spain are in Castellón.
 
Breathe
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:22 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
What does that have to do with the 747 fleet being retired? :confused:


This is the BA fleet parking thread :old:

My bad. I I missed the comma and misread the title as just 747 fleet parking and being retired. :?
 
CWL757
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:07 pm

G-BNLY (Landor) flew it's last flight today from Cardiff to Dunsfold where it will be preserved.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
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CarbonFibre
Topic Author
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:03 pm

Just G-BYGC in the livery that started it all back in 1970 left to go then it's the end of an era. Would be good if it could go out in style and beat the 9min flight record for a 747 when it does CWL-DGX.
 
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JannEejit
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:08 pm

Breathe wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Breathe wrote:
What does that have to do with the 747 fleet being retired? :confused:


This is the BA fleet parking thread :old:

My bad. I I missed the comma and misread the title as just 747 fleet parking and being retired. :?


I think this thread started as a pure pan BA fleet retirement topic but got post edited by mods to include reference to the 747 disposals ? One of my pet hates about these fora is the number of edits made to thread titles after they've been established. You just don't see that anywhere else.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3257
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 am

CarbonFibre wrote:
Just G-BYGC in the livery that started it all back in 1970 left to go then it's the end of an era. Would be good if it could go out in style and beat the 9min flight record for a 747 when it does CWL-DGX.


It would be good but it doesn’t give people sufficient time to drive from Cardiff to St Athan to see the landing!
 
bennett123
Posts: 10764
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:08 am

Based on my last visit to St Athan, is it a good idea for people to be racing on those roads.

Firstly, they are quite windy and narrow.

Secondly, a lot of people, including children live in the former RAF accommodation.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:22 pm

FGITD wrote:
Dunsfold ...is going to have 3 747s, if I'm not mistaken, with 2 as film sets.
Is there that much demand for aircraft film sets?


The exterior of G-BDXJ is not used a lot, but the interior regularly appears in UK produced TV programmes and ads. The blue seats and grey bulkheads are a give away. The upper deck is sometimes used to represent a narrow body, and seems to be used more than the lower deck. One example is the sitcom 'Not Going Out' for which I think XJ has been used more than once.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:29 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Breathe wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

This is the BA fleet parking thread :old:

My bad. I missed the comma and misread the title as just 747 fleet parking and being retired. :?


I think this thread started as a pure pan BA fleet retirement topic but got post edited by mods to include reference to the 747 disposals?
One of my pet hates about these fora is the number of edits made to thread titles after they've been established. You just don't see that anywhere else.


Hello.
This thread did start as one that would cover all the types in the BA fleet.
To be fair to the mods, at one time the title was something like 'BA fleet retirements - 747 to be retired rumour'. When the 747 retirement went from rumour to fact the title did need to be changed.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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CarbonFibre
Topic Author
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Final BA 747 Flight - 11th December

Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:30 pm

Friday sees BOAC liveried G-BYGC operate the last ever BA 747 flight. Its due to make the short hop from Cardiff to St Athan early afternoon.
 
CWL757
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: Final BA 747 Flight - 11th December

Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:05 pm

Currently rumoured to have gone tech with engine issues. Will she fight to live another day?
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
CWL757
Posts: 176
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Re: Final BA 747 Flight - 11th December

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:51 pm

CWL757 wrote:
Currently rumoured to have gone tech with engine issues. Will she fight to live another day?

Update- it appears the team at BAMC are going to do an overnight engine change, won't look perfect with a blue engine instead of a BOAC one but it is what it is.
A319, A320, 738, 743, 744, 752, 772, 788, C150, E175, E190, F70, R22
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:34 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
DCA350 wrote:

The 747s were long paid for and amortized. They were scheduled for retirement over the next few years. To scrap the A380s would be a massive write down.



A month ago, I might have argued the point with him. But travel will not be back to pre Covid levels. When it does re-peak, I would have to agree that even 2022 is highly optimistic.

So for the 388s, the real question is with what BA are paying for them, will they be able to recover as much operating as they would have in taxing incentives to write down the loss?

I would imagine this gets complex with the 388s, as they do have a useful cargo load if PAX count can be certain to remain below a certain point. Not an ideal solution by any means, but that could be well enough to justify the operational cost. Any RASM benefits are history though.


Also, only 3 of the 9 A388s (G-XLEF/I/J) are owned. G-XLEA/D are owned by Airbus directly, and the other 7 are leased from Japanese lessors. G-XLEB/C/G/K/L are owned by FPG Amentum, and G-XLEE/H are owned by Fuyo General Lease (G-EUNA/B are also owned by Fuyo). The frames are between 4 and 8 years old. At least airlines like LH have it a bit easier, as the LH Group owns all of its jets with more than 2 engines.


There are different types of ‘lease’.

‘Finance lease’ - an airline takes a loan from a bank to buy the aircraft, pays off the loan over an agreed period of time, and at the end of the arrangement assumes ownership of the aircraft. A finance lease is similar to a mortgage on a home.

‘Operating lease’ - an airline ‘rents’ an aircraft for a fixed term. Operating leases tend to be flexible. However, they are relatively expensive. Operating leases can be extended. Early termination usually results in the payment of exit fees. The airline will never take ownership of the aircraft. AerCap, GECAS, BBAM and others specialise in placing airliners with airlines on operating leases.

BA likes to purchase airliners. Pre-covid the airline was highly profitable, had a good credit rating and access to funds. Typically, BA would take a loan (finance lease) to fund the purchase, and pay back the loan over around ten years. For BA this was cheaper than taking an aircraft on an operating lease. BA depreciates aircraft over around ten years.

FPG Amentum specialise in managing aircraft for the institutions, for example banks, that own them. So, I suspect that the five BA A380s ‘leased’ from FPG Amentum are on finance rather than operating leases. If I’m right, effectively BA owns these A380s.

I hadn’t heard of Fuyo. Looking at their website and the services they offer it could be that the two BA A380s ‘leased’ from Fuyo are also on finance leases.

My guess is that the two BA A380s owned by Airbus are also on finance leases, but I could be wrong.

If I’m right about BA’s A380s being on finance leases, handing them back to the financial institutions that own them is likely to involve very high termination penalties being paid. This would mean that disposing of the fleet would incur significant cost.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: BA A380 status

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:37 am

vhtje wrote:
A.net wisdom is that BA is the one airline that can make the A380 work for them, given how constrained LHR is, and how popular a destination it is, both O&D and transfer.

The answer on will BA retain its A380s or get rid of them is really a crystal ball-gazing exercise. How long will it take for demand to recover to pre-COVID levels? Let's be optimistic and say it is 2023 as some analysts are predicting, assuming a vaccine is found by the end of next summer. That means that BA needs to store them for at least another 12 months before they can begin to return them to service, and even then, they are not going to be at capacity, which is another problem, as A.net wisdom also says that the A380 doesn't make money unless it is full of pax.

It comes down to two factors:
1) How much is it costing BA to have the airframes sitting around doing nowt
2) How quickly the recovery comes - and can BA afford to wait that long, while paying the costs associated with parked aircraft

My own personal view: if demand recovers quickly, say in late 2021/early 2022, then we may see the A380 flying again in BA colours. But I think that is very unlikely: I think the world is heading towards a deep recession, further dampening demand until well into 2023 or even 2024.

With the cost of those parked aircraft, I don't think BA can't wait that long. Therefore, I think the A380 at BA is toast.



True, BA will be paying to park its A380s at Madrid and Teruel.

It probably costs as much if not more to park an A380 as it costs to take a Range Rover Sport into the ULEZ and park it on the King’s Road.

Short term BA will be comparing the cost of parking the A380s to the cost of operating the fleet at a loss.

Longer term there are other costs to consider.

I suspect that BA owns most or all of the A380 fleet. My guess is that those on ‘lease’ are on finance leases. If I’m right, should BA walk away from its A380s the airline is likely to face significant termination penalties.

In July IAG declared an exceptional impairment expense of €731 related to fleet and other assets together with an associated inventory impairment expense of €71 million. The impairment related to 55 aircraft including 32 747s, 2 777s, 15 A340s, 2 A330s, their associated engines and rotable inventories.

I do not know what the impairment expense of retiring 12 A380s with an average age of 5 years would be. I imagine that it will be significant.

My guess is that the cost of parking the fleet pales into insignificance compared to the cost of disposal.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:42 am

BealineV953 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/status/1314928592359481344?s=21

BA will begin to move 380s to proper long term storage

Airline is considering scrapping some


This does not look to me like a reliable source for BA's fleet plans.

Reporting its Second Quarter results on 31st July, IAG said that it expected it to take until at least 2023 for passenger demand to recover to 2019 levels. IAG said that it was planning for capacity to “…increase through quarter 3 and quarter 4, to -74 per cent and -46 per cent versus 2019 respectively, but plans are highly uncertain and subject to easing lockdowns and travel restrictions”.

Under "right sizing the business for the future" IAG stated that for BA:
• 4 A380s to be temporarily grounded
• 6 B777s to be temporarily grounded
• 18 narrow body aircraft to be temporarily grounded
• 13 Airbus narrow bodies to be retired early
• 747 fleet exited through early retirements
• A318 fleet exited

IAG did not say when the temporary groundings will come to an end. Given the uncertainty, this is not surprising. However, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen an IAG statement saying that aircraft may be temporarily grounded for “up to two years” (I’ve searched, but can’t find that statement now).

Recovery for the industry has been slow, and perhaps slower than hoped for. The BA winter schedule may be smaller than planned, and this may mean that grounded aircraft will return to service at a slower rate than anticipated.

IAG shares are traded on the London Stock Exchange and the ‘Spanish Stock Exchanges’ (the stock exchanges of Madrid, Barcelona, Bilbao and Valencia). IAG is obliged to follow strict protocols around what it says about financial performance.

Reporting its results, IAG highlighted an exceptional impairment expense of €731 related to fleet assets (€729 million) and other assets (€2 million) together with an associated inventory impairment expense of €71 million. It also reported expenses relating to contractual end of lease payments in respect of surplus aircraft of €6 million.
IAG said the fleet impairment relates to 55 aircraft, their associated engines and rotable inventories that have been stood down permanently and 6 further aircraft which have been impaired down to their recoverable value at June 30, 2020, which includes:
32 Boeing 747
15 Airbus A340
4 Airbus A330-200
2 Boeing 777-200
4 Airbus A320
4 Embraer E170

So, at the end of July BA had clearly not taken the decision to retire the A380s. If at some time BA does decide to retire A380s, I would expect there to be significant further exceptional costs, and therefore a formal public announcement will be required. The IAG third quarter results are due soon and there may be an update.
I’d be surprised if since the end of July BA has decided to retire A380s. There is no rush to make that decision.
BA may now be planning to return the A380s to service at a slower rate than first anticipated. This is not the same as deciding to retire them.

For what it is worth, I think that the A380s will return to service, but at a slow rate.


Should BA decide to retire its A380s, IAG will have to declare the significant cost of doing that.

At the end of the second quarter IAG declared an exceptional impairment expense of €802 related to fleet and other assets and an associated inventory impairment expense. This related to the retirement of 32 747s, 2 777s, 15 A340s, 4 A330s, eight other aircraft, their associated engines and rotable inventories.

Reporting its third quarter results, IAG made no mention of costs related to retiring the A380. What IAG did say was:

On 10 September, IAG announced a reduction in capacity from -74 per cent to -78 per cent in 3Q 2020 and from -46 per cent to -60 per cent in 4Q 2020.
Recent overall bookings have not developed as previously expected.
In response to the high uncertainty of the current environment, IAG now plans for capacity in 4Q 2020 to be no more than 30 per cent compared to 2019.

In mid-October BA told North Wales Live: "The A380 is still a valued part of our fleet and there are currently no plans to retire them."

Since then, the UK went into lockdown, and BA capacity was cut. Many A320s returned to storage. My guess is that BA is operating at well below 30 per cent of the capacity it operated at this time last year.

The hoped-for recovery is proving to be elusive. However, I do not think that this means that the airline will be in a rush to retire the A380. Short term I suspect that it is cheaper to park them than retire them. Only if the airline becomes is certain that demand will not recover to a level that enables it to operate the A380 at a profit will it take the significant financial hit of early retirement.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, 747 fleet retired

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:55 am

BealineV953 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/status/1314928592359481344?s=21

BA will begin to move 380s to proper long term storage



Over the past week or so...
G-XLEF, XEG, XEI, XEL positioned to Madrid for storage.
G-XLEA, XEB positioned to Teruel for storage.


Yesterday, 1st December, G-XLEK positioned to Madrid for storage.


The BA A380s have been moving around. A quick update on their locations:

LHR maintenance:
G-XLED, XEE, XEH, XEJ

Madrid stored:
G-XLEF, XEG, XEI, XEK, XEL

Teruel stored:
G-XLEA, XEB, XEC
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 284
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:32 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), for BA under "right sizing the business for the future" amongst other things it says:
* Early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies
* Temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft.
* Temporary grounding of 4 A380s
* Temporary grounding of up to 6 B777s.
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are?
Is this bringing forward retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other?
Is there any truth in talk of A321s leaving the fleet?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? It could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the presentation).


One of them is an A318... as for the other 12, no idea, but there are 35 A319s, most if not all of which are LHR based now, anyway.


I should have said, the BA presentation included:
• Exiting 747 fleet through early retirements
• Exiting A318 fleet.

So, the early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies and the temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft does not include the A318.

From Flyertalk, nine Heathrow based A319s (G-EUxx) had pre-covid retirement dates running from SEP ’20 to OCT ‘22. These nine, if their retirements have been brought forward, may be included in the “early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies”
If BA means what it says about not restarting shorthaul services at Gatwick, the 10 leased LGW based A320s (G-GATx) and 10 leased LGW based A319s (G-DBCx) may be vulnerable. None are containerised, which may mean they are unlikely to transfer to LHR.

So:
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are? Is this simply bringing forward and adding to the retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? Bear in mind that it could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the IAG presentation).
And,
There are 14 short-haul and 4 mid-haul A321s in the fleet. Is there any truth in talk of A321s being disposed of?


There are 14 short-haul and 4 mid-haul A321ceos in the BA fleet.
Is there any truth in talk of these A321s being disposed of?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
smartplane
Posts: 1693
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: BA fleet parking thread

Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:06 pm

The definition of finance and operating leases has tended to converge over time, with some financiers even using mixed equity models, and that's before determining how to treat retrospective credits earned on the specific aircraft, plus OEM and third party residual value guarantees, and ...............

Many leases (finance, operating or composite), with mutual agreement (so no covenant breaches), are currently subject to temporary and / or permanent concessions, some reviewable at future agreed times or events, and some not.

And then there are the same issues and more with engine finance and maintenance contracts.

Plus paper breaches of maintenance, airworthiness and insurance requirements.

The finance and OEM community continues to take a very flexible, co-operative approach with blue chip and other customers. At some point, that ability may be tested, as their own capacity comes under pressure.

Airlines, beneficial owners and those with significant exposure co-ordinate disclosures and media releases.

Virtually every commercial aircraft and engine will have a fixed and / or floating charge over it at present, whatever the records show on a day by day basis. The most nimble financiers release their security promptly on a frame by frame basis, if their share of storage and maintenance costs are likely to quickly 'eat' any value.

Specifically for BA and their A380's, all we can conclude is that no decisions have been made yet on the fate of their A380 fleet, or each individual aircraft.

We live in extraordinary times, so who knows what surprises lie in wait. Boeing offers an A380 buyback to firm wavering X orders? Airbus offers an A380 buyback to increase A35 family order book / undermine X? EK and FX announce A380 re-engine, and offer freight conversion?
 
Opus99
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: BA fleet parking thread

Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:39 am

https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/sta ... 04774?s=21

BA sending some A380s to Doha for Storage starting from tomorrow
 
TC957
Posts: 4059
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: BA fleet parking thread

Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:02 am

I suppose that's one way of keeping A380 crews current - shuffle the fleet about the various storage sites !
At least weather for winter storage will be kinder in Qatar than LHR or central Spain.
 
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SQ22
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Re: BA fleet parking thread

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:07 am

Please continue to post your news and your discussion here:

British Airways Fleet Thread - 2021

Thread will be locked.
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