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jfk777
Posts: 7362
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:56 pm

This airplane had quite a career, there is nothing sad about her retirement. What I find more surprising is she lasted at BA this long. Though the -200ER are more desirable BA had plenty of destinations in the USA east coast plus the Persian Gulf to keep her busy. Now the question is how long will the 777-200ER fleet has left at BA ? Hopefully another 7 to 10 years. Long may the 777-200 fly.
 
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CV990A
Posts: 1476
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:08 am

I flew this bird LHR-IAD back in February of 2007; it also happened to be my first-ever 777 flight. Sorry to see it go, but not surprised given the environment.
Kittens Give Morbo Gas
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:08 am

That was one busy plane. I just looked at G-INFO and was surprised to learn that at least 6 of the original B772(ER)s at BA are already over 100,000 hours, with a few almost there. How many 777s worldwide have hit 100,000 hours? (While on the subject of G-INFO, I notice that the 2 of the 3 owned A332s at MT likely hit 100,000 hours before the airline collapsed; how many A330s have hit 100,000 hours?) BA will need those new A35Ks and B78Xs much more quickly---even a retrofit of the B772s is retrofitting a high-time plane.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:37 am

MoKa777 wrote:
the first ever GE-powered 777 . . . being retired.

Huh?

G-ZZZE was retired, then scrapped, 12yrs ago.
It was also a GE-powered 772A.


Also, fairly certain that N774AM was retired two years ago, as it's been sitting stripped in the storage yard ever since. Though in theory it could still be "rescued."
Also GE-powered.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
bennett123
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:56 am

G-ZZZC also at DGX.

Apart from anything else, the tail is gone together with the rear fuselage up to the rear bulkhead.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:09 am

LAX772LR wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
the first ever GE-powered 777 . . . being retired.

Huh?

G-ZZZE was retired, then scrapped, 12yrs ago.
It was also a GE-powered 772A.


Also, fairly certain that N774AM was retired two years ago, as it's been sitting stripped in the storage yard ever since. Though in theory it could still be "rescued."
Also GE-powered.


I think the OP means that G-ZZZA is the first 777 powered by GE engines, and now is being retired. Not that this is the first retirement of a 777 powered by GE engines. As you pointed out, it is not.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
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Channex757
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:25 am

bennett123 wrote:
G-ZZZC also at DGX.

Apart from anything else, the tail is gone together with the rear fuselage up to the rear bulkhead.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing has bought that back. It could be invaluable to them for life extension and fatigue research.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: First ever GE-powered 777 (G-ZZZA) retired

Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:06 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
the first ever GE-powered 777 . . . being retired.

Huh?

G-ZZZE was retired, then scrapped, 12yrs ago.
It was also a GE-powered 772A.


Also, fairly certain that N774AM was retired two years ago, as it's been sitting stripped in the storage yard ever since. Though in theory it could still be "rescued."
Also GE-powered.


I think the OP means that G-ZZZA is the first 777 powered by GE engines, and now is being retired. Not that this is the first retirement of a 777 powered by GE engines. As you pointed out, it is not.


Precisely.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 198
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:40 pm

JannEejit wrote:
I'm hearing anecdotally via GLA based NATS operatives that BA's Airbus A321 CEO fleet is being progressively rounded up there (16 already a further two on Friday) for storage and disposal.


At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), for BA under "right sizing the business for the future" amongst other things it says:
* Early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies
* Temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft.
* Temporary grounding of 4 A380s
* Temporary grounding of up to 6 B777s.
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are? Is this bringing forward retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other? Is there any truth in talk of A321s leaving the fleet?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? It could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the presentation).
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 198
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
A month ago, I might have argued the point with him. But travel will not be back to pre Covid levels. When it does re-peak, I would have to agree that even 2022 is highly optimistic.

So for the 388s, the real question is with what BA are paying for them, will they be able to recover as much operating as they would have in taxing incentives to write down the loss?

I would imagine this gets complex with the 388s, as they do have a useful cargo load if PAX count can be certain to remain below a certain point. Not an ideal solution by any means, but that could be well enough to justify the operational cost. Any RASM benefits are history though.

Also,
3 A388s (G-XLEF, I, J) are owned.
G-XLEA, D are owned by Airbus directly.
The other 7 are leased from Japanese lessors. G-XLEB, C, G, K, L are owned by FPG Amentum, and G-XLEE, H are owned by Fuyo General Lease.
The frames are between 4 and 8 years old.

Very interesting. I wonder what the lease durations are.


Hello.
At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), under "right sizing the business for the future" for the BA fleet, amongst other things, it says:
* Temporary grounding of 4 A380s
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Bhoy
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:14 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
I'm hearing anecdotally via GLA based NATS operatives that BA's Airbus A321 CEO fleet is being progressively rounded up there (16 already a further two on Friday) for storage and disposal.


At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), for BA under "right sizing the business for the future" amongst other things it says:
* Early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies
* Temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft.
* Temporary grounding of 4 A380s
* Temporary grounding of up to 6 B777s.
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are? Is this bringing forward retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other? Is there any truth in talk of A321s leaving the fleet?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? It could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the presentation).

One of them is an A318... as for the other 12, no idea, but there are 35 A319s, most if not all of which are LHR based now, anyway.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:59 pm

Bhoy wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
I'm hearing anecdotally via GLA based NATS operatives that BA's Airbus A321 CEO fleet is being progressively rounded up there (16 already a further two on Friday) for storage and disposal.


At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), for BA under "right sizing the business for the future" amongst other things it says:
* Early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies
* Temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft.
* Temporary grounding of 4 A380s
* Temporary grounding of up to 6 B777s.
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are?
Is this bringing forward retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other?
Is there any truth in talk of A321s leaving the fleet?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? It could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the presentation).

One of them is an A318... as for the other 12, no idea, but there are 35 A319s, most if not all of which are LHR based now, anyway.


I should have said, the BA presentation included:
• Exiting 747 fleet through early retirements
• Exiting A318 fleet.

So, the early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies and the temporary grounding of up to 18 narrow body aircraft does not include the A318.

From Flyertalk, nine Heathrow based A319s (G-EUxx) had pre-covid retirement dates running from SEP ’20 to OCT ‘22. These nine, if their retirements have been brought forward, may be included in the “early retirement of 13 Airbus narrow bodies”
If BA means what it says about not restarting shorthaul services at Gatwick, the 10 leased LGW based A320s (G-GATx) and 10 leased LGW based A319s (G-DBCx) may be vulnerable. None are containerised, which may mean they are unlikely to transfer to LHR.

So:
Does anyone know which type the "13 Airbus narrow bodies" are? Is this simply bringing forward and adding to the retirement of the LHR A319s, or some other?
Does anyone know which type the "18 narrow body aircraft" are? Bear in mind that it could include "right sizing CityFlyer" (same slide in the IAG presentation).
And,
There are 14 short-haul and 4 mid-haul A321s in the fleet. Is there any truth in talk of A321s being disposed of?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:09 pm

The mid-haul A321s could be vulnerable as a small odd-ball fleet (configuration wise) and won't lend themselves to Club World Suites.

At CityFlyer I think some ERJ-170s have already gone and with additional ERJ-190s entering the fleet standardising on the latter could make sense.

Depending on lease dates the G-DBCx A319s could be vulnerable because I think BD had quite high lease rates on them. Same with the remaining G-MIDx A320s possibly?
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
QF744ER
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:23 am

In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s.
 
jimmy9irons
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:23 am

Where are the B744s stored?
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1074
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:32 am

jimmy9irons wrote:
Where are the B744s stored?


Couple of them have arrrived in CDT in the last couple of weeks

https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/first-b ... etirement/

In spanish with a picture in CDT:

https://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenc ... b465d.html
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
TC957
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:11 am

jimmy9irons wrote:
Where are the B744s stored?

This should help you : http://thebasource.com/aircraft/b747-400/#BA744News
 
Bhoy
Posts: 552
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:23 pm

QF744ER wrote:
In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s.

They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s have RB211-524s with an 86.3 inch diameter fan.

While some of the internal parts are likely the same, I’m not sure they’d be quick and cheap to adapt, especially with the amount of 757s being parked just now, anyway.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:16 pm

Bhoy wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s.

They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s have RB211-524s with an 86.3 inch diameter fan.

While some of the internal parts are likely the same, I’m not sure they’d be quick and cheap to adapt, especially with the amount of 757s being parked just now, anyway.

Apparently 524s work on 767 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... 524_series ). Not sure if these are all that common though. I thought a few ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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BealineV953
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s.

They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s have RB211-524s with an 86.3 inch diameter fan.

While some of the internal parts are likely the same, I’m not sure they’d be quick and cheap to adapt, especially with the amount of 757s being parked just now, anyway.

Apparently 524s work on 767 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... 524_series ). Not sure if these are all that common though. I thought a few ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters?


BA selected the RB211 for its 767s partly because they were common with its 747s. I believe that it was possible to take an RB211 from a BA 747 and hang it on a 767 and vv.
A handful of the BA 767s that went to Qantas soldier on. Four are with Eastern Airlines and one is, or was, in Thailand with Jet Asia Airways. All are passenger aircraft; no BA or ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Bhoy
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
QF744ER wrote:
In the images I’ve seen recently of the parked BA 744’s their engines are removed quite quickly, is there actually any worldwide demand for the RB211’s anymore? All I can think of is US registered B757’s.

They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s have RB211-524s with an 86.3 inch diameter fan.

While some of the internal parts are likely the same, I’m not sure they’d be quick and cheap to adapt, especially with the amount of 757s being parked just now, anyway.

Apparently 524s work on 767 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... 524_series ). Not sure if these are all that common though. I thought a few ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters?

No Rolls Royce 767s have been converted, they’d need a separate STC for freight conversion due to different weight distribution on the wings (the GE and PW 767s each have their own separate STCs), but as only 20 odd RR examples were built, it’s not economical to commission the STC.
 
LHA320
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:10 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
They’re a different size - the 757 uses RB211-535s with a 74.1 inch diameter fan, the 744s have RB211-524s with an 86.3 inch diameter fan.

While some of the internal parts are likely the same, I’m not sure they’d be quick and cheap to adapt, especially with the amount of 757s being parked just now, anyway.

Apparently 524s work on 767 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... 524_series ). Not sure if these are all that common though. I thought a few ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters?


BA selected the RB211 for its 767s partly because they were common with its 747s. I believe that it was possible to take an RB211 from a BA 747 and hang it on a 767 and vv.
A handful of the BA 767s that went to Qantas soldier on. Four are with Eastern Airlines and one is, or was, in Thailand with Jet Asia Airways. All are passenger aircraft; no BA or ex-BA 767s were converted to freighters.


There were only 3 RR powered 763 built, not ordered by BA. All of these ordered by China Yunnan Airlines. 28148, 28149 and 28264. 28149 is still in service with Royal flight as VP-BRE and had heavy mx done in VCV earlier this year, so it will soldier on for a while. The other two are stored. The 4 Eastern frames are the only other active RR 763 left. So we have 5 active frames left.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
uta999
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:30 pm

Will any of the 31 BA 744s be saved for a museum such as Duxford?

The BOAC one could park next to a sister VC-10 there. I think one should be retained at LHR too and given a proper permanent public home next to Concorde.
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:21 pm

LHA320 wrote:
There were only 3 RR powered 763 built, not ordered by BA. All of these ordered by China Yunnan Airlines. 28148, 28149 and 28264. 28149 is still in service with Royal flight as VP-BRE and had heavy mx done in VCV earlier this year, so it will soldier on for a while. The other two are stored. The 4 Eastern frames are the only other active RR 763 left. So we have 5 active frames left.


Small correction, VP-BRE had heavy mx performed at MZJ, not VCV. Wish it was VCV lol. That aside though, very surprising that there are only 5 active RR 763s left....I can see the Eastern 767s flying for a while (provided that the company itself is stable, but that’s a different topic).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
chonetsao
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:23 pm

Sad to see that B777-200ER will be less and less among legacy airlines. BA, AA and UA seems to be the last airlines to fly the relatively young B777-200ER in few years time. BA already retired two B777-200 and DL got rid of theirs. AA's fleet review is said to have B777-200ER retirement in sight. Another few year it will be a race to fly the last B777-200ER! How sad.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:23 pm

Bringing it back on topic however, BA 744s G-BYGB and G-CIVH have both been flown to Castellon for retirement.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-bygb
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-civh
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
bennett123
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:45 pm

G-BYGB is at Kemble.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:47 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Sad to see that B777-200ER will be less and less among legacy airlines. BA, AA and UA seems to be the last airlines to fly the relatively young B777-200ER in few years time. BA already retired two B777-200 and DL got rid of theirs. AA's fleet review is said to have B777-200ER retirement in sight. Another few year it will be a race to fly the last B777-200ER! How sad.

BA has retired its three remaining non-ER 777-236s (G-ZZZA, G-ZZZB and G-ZZZC). The other two (G-ZZZD and G-ZZZE) went post 9-11 when less than five years old.

The 777-236ERs (24 GE-90 examples and 19 RR Trent examples) remain in the fleet although the suggestion seems to be a few will be stored short term.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
BealineV953
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:07 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Sad to see that B777-200ER will be less and less among legacy airlines. BA, AA and UA seems to be the last airlines to fly the relatively young B777-200ER in few years time. BA already retired two B777-200 and DL got rid of theirs. AA's fleet review is said to have B777-200ER retirement in sight.
Another few year it will be a race to fly the last B777-200ER! How sad.


Air France, KLM, All Nippon...
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
chonetsao
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:32 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Sad to see that B777-200ER will be less and less among legacy airlines. BA, AA and UA seems to be the last airlines to fly the relatively young B777-200ER in a few years time. BA already retired two B777-200 and DL got rid of theirs. AA's fleet review is said to have B777-200ER retirement in sight.
Another few year it will be a race to fly the last B777-200ER! How sad.


Air France, KLM, All Nippon...


There is no guarantee many of the said airline will continue to fly B777-200ER in a few years time. AF already said they will use A359 to replace B772. ANA use B772 in domestic and regional routes which mean high cycle count, which equals retirement earlier than expected. The only exception in your quote is KLM, which may have its B777 fleet last much longer. Still, by a few years time, airlines that operate B777-200ER will be very few.
 
Opus99
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4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:03 pm

https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/sta ... 11522?s=21

Looking like 4 380s might be on the way out for BA
 
skipness1E
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:27 pm

I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.
 
Opus99
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:28 pm

skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.

Absolutely. Let’s see how the story unravels for the 380 but I think I’m on your side with this one
 
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JannEejit
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:45 pm

Opus99 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.

Absolutely. Let’s see how the story unravels for the 380 but I think I’m on your side with this one


The question would be though, what happens when traffic levels return to regular levels or indeed demand even increases ? Do airlines go shopping for larger aircraft again ? Is there a back yard sale at the storage airfields ? I presume it's easier to cut losses just now than plan that far ahead, especially in terms of crew retention, ratings upkeep. etc etc ? Sounds like a classic rock and a hard place scenario for sure.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:53 pm

A little video I made onboard the newly delivered G-XLEA in 2013. Little did I realise it's career coud possibly be over in less than ten years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAvYSloZcrc&t=15s
 
Opus99
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:58 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.

Absolutely. Let’s see how the story unravels for the 380 but I think I’m on your side with this one


The question would be though, what happens when traffic levels return to regular levels or indeed demand even increases ? Do airlines go shopping for larger aircraft again ? Is there a back yard sale at the storage airfields ? I presume it's easier to cut losses just now than plan that far ahead, especially in terms of crew retention, ratings upkeep. etc etc ? Sounds like a classic rock and a hard place scenario for sure.

Yeah definitely. I’m getting a sense of rather there be too much demand and our 787s are packed to the brim than too little demand my 380s are loss making or packing dust in the desert. Airlines would rather under supply than take the risk of over supply. Which I definitely agree with
 
LGWGate49
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:17 pm

BA's A380s are I believe scheduled to JNB, LAX, and MIA from October per this airlineroute post:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21aug20/

Obviously things can change at a moments notice, but they are still showing now as flying in November in OAG
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Revelation
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:22 pm

skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.

If they reduce the fleet from 12 to 8 you end up with a small fleet that is very expensive to operate and thus vulnerable to getting totally eliminated.

Meanwhile on FlightGlobal, Tim Clark is lamenting that he could not talk Airbus and RR into making the A380neo, go figure.
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fcogafa
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:39 pm

G-XLEH arrived LHR this afternoon from Chateroux
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:42 pm

fcogafa wrote:
G-XLEH arrived LHR this afternoon from Chateroux

They’ve been doing light maintenance on all of them
 
jumpjets
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:48 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/status/1303697227538411522?s=21

Looking like 4 380s might be on the way out for BA


I seem to remember that at the IAG second quarter results announcement it was stated that four A380s were temporarily put in store, so maybe this is just a reiteration of this policy with eight coming back into play for the forthcoming programme of planned A380s this winter.
 
Opus99
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:53 pm

jumpjets wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/status/1303697227538411522?s=21

Looking like 4 380s might be on the way out for BA


I seem to remember that at the IAG second quarter results announcement it was stated that four A380s were temporarily put in store, so maybe this is just a reiteration of this policy with eight coming back into play for the forthcoming programme of planned A380s this winter.

Yes indeed. However I think that plan might change significantly. I think the 380s were put there as slot warmers. BA knows very well this is going to be a terrible winter. But with the framework agreed for the slot waiver to continue and just waiting for EU approval. We really don’t know...
 
BealineV953
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:01 pm

jumpjets wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://twitter.com/mzulqarnainbut1/status/1303697227538411522?s=21

Looking like 4 380s might be on the way out for BA


I seem to remember that at the IAG second quarter results announcement it was stated that four A380s were temporarily put in store, so maybe this is just a reiteration of this policy with eight coming back into play for the forthcoming programme of planned A380s this winter.


At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), under "right sizing the business for the future" for BA amongst other things it says:
• 4 A380s to be temporarily grounded
• 6 B777s to be temporarily grounded
• 747 fleet exited through early retirements
• 18 narrow body aircraft to be temporarily grounded
• 13 Airbus narrow bodies to be retired early
• A318 fleet exited

Given the uncertainty, unsurprisingly, the presentation does not say anything about when the temporary groundings will come to an end.
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Crosswind
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:42 pm

skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.


Revelation wrote:
If they reduce the fleet from 12 to 8 you end up with a small fleet that is very expensive to operate and thus vulnerable to getting totally eliminated.

Meanwhile on FlightGlobal, Tim Clark is lamenting that he could not talk Airbus and RR into making the A380neo, go figure.


I think people forget an important potential role for the A380 for an airline like BA... frequency consolidation. BA have a lot of heavy density long haul routes served by multiple daily frequencies. With the sharp drop in traffic, the A380 could serve a vital role in consolidating frequencies down to a single daily flight for example when previously there has been 2-3 daily flights. Once traffic outstrips a 777/350 level, but doesn’t justify a second frequency then the A380 makes a lot of sense, rather than flying 2 half- empty 777s. The types of routes planned JNB, LAX, SFO, MIA all fall into the category of flights where there were multiple frequencies, but mainly spaced closely together in terms of departure time, whereby consolidation onto an A380 does not massively harm your competitive position. And maybe later the likes of IAD, BOS and HKG among others could possibly benefit.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:15 pm

Crosswind wrote:
I think people forget an important potential role for the A380 for an airline like BA... frequency consolidation. BA have a lot of heavy density long haul routes served by multiple daily frequencies. With the sharp drop in traffic, the A380 could serve a vital role in consolidating frequencies down to a single daily flight for example when previously there has been 2-3 daily flights. Once traffic outstrips a 777/350 level, but doesn’t justify a second frequency then the A380 makes a lot of sense, rather than flying 2 half- empty 777s. The types of routes planned JNB, LAX, SFO, MIA all fall into the category of flights where there were multiple frequencies, but mainly spaced closely together in terms of departure time, whereby consolidation onto an A380 does not massively harm your competitive position. And maybe later the likes of IAD, BOS and HKG among others could possibly benefit.

Regards
CROSSWIND

The thing I don't forget is the QF CEO saying they can make more money flying two 787s back to back than one A380.

You really need consistently good load factors and consistently good yields to make money with A380.

Interestingly enough both BA and QF have parked all their A380s and both have the same kind of issues with their route networks.
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:02 pm

With all respect, I’m not sure Qantas is a good comparison with BA. Qantas have a fairly niche long haul network, mainly due to their relative geographic location and population density compared to Europe, but yet they still have 12 A380s out of a total wide body fleet of 51 (post 747 departure) while BA also have 12 A380s out of a total wide body fleet of 105 (again post 747 departure)

I think Qantas’ A380 fleet size represents fleet planning from an era before the dominance of the Middle Eastern airlines going West and US carriers use of smaller aircraft going East from Australia. Not their fault, at the time of the order 12 A380s wasn’t excessive given the number of very long flights. But what was clear is that Qantas has too many A380s even pre COVID, whereas BA wanted more if they could agree advantageous terms (which they couldn’t)

I’m sure that the Qantas CEOs comments are totally valid for them, but I would suggest that few, if any, routes from SYD have the volume and yield compared to the number from LHR, even post COVID. BA’s 787 fleet is fully utilised at the moment, as are the A350s. They don’t have the option to deploy 2 of them in place of an A380, in the pilot redundancy process the only protected fleets were the 787 and A350 because both are working hard picking up the slack from other fleets. The 777 fleet will also start to take on more work. With the continued effective closure of the US as a market, it seems BA will continue to seek out volume elsewhere in their network... I completely understand the need to park/store A380s for the immediate future, but as the market recovers I think the (relatively) small fleet of A380s will continue to have an important role for BA in the years to come.

Only time will tell...
 
Opus99
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:13 pm

Crosswind wrote:
With all respect, I’m not sure Qantas is a good comparison with BA. Qantas have a fairly niche long haul network, mainly due to their relative geographic location and population density compared to Europe, but yet they still have 12 A380s out of a total wide body fleet of 51 (post 747 departure) while BA also have 12 A380s out of a total wide body fleet of 105 (again post 747 departure)

I think Qantas’ A380 fleet size represents fleet planning from an era before the dominance of the Middle Eastern airlines going West and US carriers use of smaller aircraft going East from Australia. Not their fault, at the time of the order 12 A380s wasn’t excessive given the number of very long flights. But what was clear is that Qantas has too many A380s even pre COVID, whereas BA wanted more if they could agree advantageous terms (which they couldn’t)

I’m sure that the Qantas CEOs comments are totally valid for them, but I would suggest that few, if any, routes from SYD have the volume and yield compared to the number from LHR, even post COVID. BA’s 787 fleet is fully utilised at the moment, as are the A350s. They don’t have the option to deploy 2 of them in place of an A380, in the pilot redundancy process the only protected fleets were the 787 and A350 because both are working hard picking up the slack from other fleets. The 777 fleet will also start to take on more work. With the continued effective closure of the US as a market, it seems BA will continue to seek out volume elsewhere in their network... I completely understand the need to park/store A380s for the immediate future, but as the market recovers I think the (relatively) small fleet of A380s will continue to have an important role for BA in the years to come.

Only time will tell...

The question now becomes does it make sense to keep running that relatively small fleet. Airlines are going to be meaner and leaner than ever before especially going out of this crisis and things I believe they’ll behind are jets that do not make money during economic downturns which is something WW ALWAYS said was an issue with the 380. I’ve come to understand that BA and a lot of other airlines are experiencing MUCH lower than expected forward bookings for September/ October. It is going to be a dreadful winter. And I am not sure the 380 will be back to see that demand whenever it comes back. And then with the size of the fleet. Is BA going to keep engineers for 8 380s? That might or might not get filled. Lest we also forget. BA has to completely change their model. This reliance on business travel has to come down significantly. LH is apparently going to retire all their 380s and I think BA will too
 
skipness1E
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:14 pm

LGWGate49 wrote:
BA's A380s are I believe scheduled to JNB, LAX, and MIA from October per this airlineroute post:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21aug20/

Obviously things can change at a moments notice, but they are still showing now as flying in November in OAG

They're not going to be flying that soon. BA just haven't gotten round to updating that, the B744 was still showing long after retirement was confirmed.
A decrease from 12 to 8 just makes the oddball fleet even more niche and costs go further up. I love the A380, it's a beautiful aircraft to fly in, but there's not one route that needs an A380 on the BA network that wouldn't do better with 2 smaller aircraft in a market screaming for cargo capacity. It's the small size of the fleet and the large gap between it and the next largest B77W that might ensure it's retirement. Remember it's still 1) High F and C focussed and 2) Constrained for cargo.
 
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Re: Updated: BA fleet parking, will retire 747 fleet

Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:19 am

skipness1E wrote:
They're not going to be flying that soon. BA just haven't gotten round to updating that, the B744 was still showing long after retirement was confirmed.
A decrease from 12 to 8 just makes the oddball fleet even more niche and costs go further up. I love the A380, it's a beautiful aircraft to fly in, but there's not one route that needs an A380 on the BA network that wouldn't do better with 2 smaller aircraft in a market screaming for cargo capacity. It's the small size of the fleet and the large gap between it and the next largest B77W that might ensure it's retirement. Remember it's still 1) High F and C focussed and 2) Constrained for cargo.

Building on your post (for others, not you):

Due to cargo capacity needs, the "virtual combi" aircraft have the advantage. With light passenger loads, other aircraft just make sense. The 787, A350, and to a lesser extent the 77W will be in demand far earlier than the A380. I wouldn't expect real demand for the A380 until after the 777s are (mostly) back in service.

The two aircraft instead of one flight makes sense. You can stagger the departures. Even if it is done by a few hours (I'm thinking HKG-LHR), it gives options for the few premium passengers. It also smooths out cargo handling and provides multiples more cargo capacity.

What is F demand right now? I would imagine quite a few of those people are going on business jets to avoid Covid19.

I am a fan of the A380 (sadly, I haven't flown on it yet), but this just is the wrong market for the plane. Until traffic is above 65% of the prior traffic, they just are not needed.

I wonder how long the A380s that were parked will remain parked. I would bet a few years.

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BealineV953
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Re: 4 BA 380s on the way out

Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:28 pm

Crosswind wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
I'd be astonished if any came back sadly. The market is on the floor and looks to be remaining that way.


Revelation wrote:
If they reduce the fleet from 12 to 8 you end up with a small fleet that is very expensive to operate and thus vulnerable to getting totally eliminated.

Meanwhile on FlightGlobal, Tim Clark is lamenting that he could not talk Airbus and RR into making the A380neo, go figure.


I think people forget an important potential role for the A380 for an airline like BA... frequency consolidation.
BA have a lot of heavy density long haul routes served by multiple daily frequencies.
With the sharp drop in traffic, the A380 could serve a vital role in consolidating frequencies down to a single daily flight for example when previously there has been 2-3 daily flights.
Once traffic outstrips a 777/350 level, but doesn’t justify a second frequency then the A380 makes a lot of sense, rather than flying 2 half- empty 777s.
The types of routes planned JNB, LAX, SFO, MIA all fall into the category of flights where there were multiple frequencies, but mainly spaced closely together in terms of departure time, whereby consolidation onto an A380 does not massively harm your competitive position. And maybe later the likes of IAD, BOS and HKG among others could possibly benefit.

Regards
CROSSWIND


Your 'frequency consolidation' point is a very good one.
On routes like JNB and HKG, because of night jet bans and customer preference for over-night flights, in many cases BA departures are within a short time of each other. Consolidating two or three departures, some of which were operated by A380s, down to one A380 makes sense, so long as slots are not lost.
Six weeks is a long time in the airline business, especially through a crisis like this one. However, at the end of July IAG said that eight A380s will return to service and four will be temporarily stored. IAG didn't say when the eight will return to service, or when the other four will return to service.
IAG shares are traded. IAG therefore has to follow strict protocols in what it says in public. If IAG was going to 'exit' the A380 fleet there would be significant costs, and IAG would be obliged to make a formal announcement the that effect.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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